Dynamic raid scaling

[Pompa]

Greetings my turtles! We have been developing a system that will scale raids dynamically depending on the number of players that are doing it. Today, we finished the development and after testing it seems to work perfectly fine.

We have been thinking about this because we need to be aware that even if we have the best community, we are not that big, and letting our level 60 players do PvE content without needing to set up the raid meeting MONTHS before the actual date is the best we can do to make everyone happy.

But, as you already know, we are very transparent, so before applying any change to the current state of the server, we want to ask you what do you think.

This is how the scaling system is developed at this moment:

· 20 man raids will scale from 12 to 20 players. (So, the raid will scale from 12, 13, 14... to 20 players, that is, same as if it wasn't scaled).
· 40 man raids will scale from 20 to 40 players. (20, 21, 22... 40).
· Boss mechanics will still be the same, no changes.
· Spell damage will still be the same.
· Scaled HP = baseHp * (currentPlayers / maxPlayers).
· Scaled damage = baseDmg * ((currentPlayers / maxPlayers) + ((maxPlayers - currentPlayers) / 100)).
· Scaled mana = baseMana * ((currentPlayers / maxPlayers) + ((maxPlayers - currentPlayers) / 100)).

If people wants it, it could even be made fully optional (maybe a party wanna do a 40 man with less people, just for the challenge). For example, not scaling it if the raid leader has a specific item.

I have been already talking with lots of the current level 60 players, and everyone seems to agree with this change. However, we wanna hear more opinions. Please, when you comment, if possible, tell us your level and since when have you been playing here!

[Reachkid]

I like it. If possible, add an NPC at the beginning of the raid, that the raid leader could talk to, to set raid to dynamic scaling or not. (Similar to beginning of ICC, where you could turn off the buff for more challenge)

Also, if possible, consider decreasing loot drops for dynamic raids vs. full raid groups (Or increase drops for full raids =D). Might incentivise leaders to bring full raids, but not cancel if they can't get it. (ie: the raid isn't a wash if one or two don't show up, and the leaders can decide if the reduced manpower can still beat a non-scaled raid.)

Just my 2 cents.

[Tamamo-no-Bae]

I think this is necessary. We are a private server after all and our population isn't the highest.

In Vanilla Wow it was already super hard to get 40 people together, it's borderline impossible here.

Doing the raids with the correct amount of people should give bonus loot though.

I have a lv 12 Dryad Hunter and I've been on Turtle-wow since December last year.

[Casanova]

I like the idea and if you plan to have an option to toggle the scalinh mode off for the purist will be great.

Like people say it was hard even in rerail to get all the people for raiding since if you miss only 5 people you were going to have a hard time. Classic is comming and we can expect to lose decent numbers in every bracket level. So i support the idea 100%

[Edo]

As someone who has been on this server from its start, i really appreciate the amount of work TurtleWow staff puts in to pleasantly surprise us players. This most recent surprise is especially welcomed, since as others have also mentioned, it is very difficult to assemble 40 raid ready players on a smaller server.

That being said, i do have some questions:

- Will the number of mobs in a pack remain the same (For example, dog packs before Magmadar could be hard to tackle without enough aoe in a smaller raid)

- Will the number of adds in a boss encounter be scaled down (Garr elementals, Majordomo guards, ...)

- Some bosses use Shield-like spells that needs to be dps-ed down fast as a part of the encounter mechanic (Majordomo for instance). I assume the damage absorbed wont be changed, but it could be an issue in smaller raids

-ZG and AQ20 will be especially tricky to scale down perfectly, with even less people to account for if certain mechanics remain the same (number of bats that Priestess Jeklik spawns)

Those are some potential issues i can think of at the moment. I can't wait to try out the new scaled raids, if and when you choose to roll them out, and i'm certain that players' feedback will help fix any problems that might arise.

[Pompa]

As someone who has been on this server from its start, i really appreciate the amount of work TurtleWow staff puts in to pleasantly surprise us players. This most recent surprise is especially welcomed, since as others have also mentioned, it is very difficult to assemble 40 raid ready players on a smaller server.

That being said, i do have some questions:

- Will the number of mobs in a pack remain the same (For example, dog packs before Magmadar could be hard to tackle without enough aoe in a smaller raid)

- Will the number of adds in a boss encounter be scaled down (Garr elementals, Majordomo guards, ...)

- Some bosses use Shield-like spells that needs to be dps-ed down fast as a part of the encounter mechanic (Majordomo for instance). I assume the damage absorbed wont be changed, but it could be an issue in smaller raids

-ZG and AQ20 will be especially tricky to scale down perfectly, with even less people to account for if certain mechanics remain the same (number of bats that Priestess Jeklik spawns)

Those are some potential issues i can think of at the moment. I can't wait to try out the new scaled raids, if and when you choose to roll them out, and i'm certain that players' feedback will help fix any problems that might arise.

Thanks for your feedback! The number of mobs will be the same, but with the values scaled down. Of course when we start getting more feedback we can adjust some more things.

Regarding Majordomo, don't worry, I believe the spell you mention is this one: https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=20619/ So, it will be fine. If you talk about this one, https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=20620/, this is the spell he uses to make himself invincible, since he is not the creature you need to kill in his encounter.

[Qixel]

I will always vote in favor of more options. Scaling seems interesting, and if it's enabled as an opt-in option, there's no reason not to have it other than the work required, which now seems to be a non-issue. <3

I would second the suggestion of perhaps increasing drops for larger raids to incentivize players to do them. Perhaps 1 item per 5 raid members (maybe a 20% chance at an extra item for each member past a division of 5?) would be a fair compromise? Of course, numbers could be tweaked as needed.

Engie
Level 60 Warrior
January '19

[Pompa]

I will always vote in favor of more options. Scaling seems interesting, and if it's enabled as an opt-in option, there's no reason not to have it other than the work required, which now seems to be a non-issue. <3

I would second the suggestion of perhaps increasing drops for larger raids to incentivize players to do them. Perhaps 1 item per 5 raid members (maybe a 20% chance at an extra item for each member past a division of 5?) would be a fair compromise? Of course, numbers could be tweaked as needed.

Engie
Level 60 Warrior
January '19

Actually the number of dropped items is not that big, for example in MC bosses usually drop 3/4 items. Maybe we could give Turtle Tokens per boss killed with the max number of players. :)

The amount of gold dropped is adjusted too, forgot to mention that.

[Cael]

I 100% support this. I would like to see this! I've always wanted to experience vanilla end game content, and this will even let someone like me who RPs more than plays the game, a chance to join a group.

[Qixel]

Actually the number of dropped items is not that big, for example in MC bosses usually drop 3/4 items. Maybe we could give Turtle Tokens per boss killed with the max number of players. :)

The amount of gold dropped is adjusted too, forgot to mention that.

Oh, I know, just figured making drops based on the number of people in the raid would be a solid compromise. :3 Turtle Tokens is a fairly solid idea, too. :3

[Bigpoop]

Sounds good... I like it!

[Lefaux]

I'd need to jump into this to actually see how it works.

Some things from the top of my head that I could think of could be an issue with smaller raids.
- Decursing on Chromaggus
- Skeletons on Nefarian
- Healers on Patchwerk (depending on whether Hateful Strike counts as spell or not)

I sense balance issues between melee and spell damage on bosses.
I guess you scale down the melee damage to account for less healers in a smaller raid.
If spell damage remains the same and a boss is spell heavy those fewer healers will run oom, making the encounter harder for a smaller raid.
Another thing that comes to mind is mind-controlling bosses. On a raid half the size the problem grows twice as big.

I really love the effort that's put into making raiding on our low-pop server more appealing and I don't want to shoot down the idea at all.
I just want to raise awareness about said topics.

[Sinrek]

I really love the effort that's put into making raiding on our low-pop server more appealing and I don't want to shoot down the idea at all.
I just want to raise awareness about said topics.

Same here. If everything will be in check for scaling down of these raids then I'm all up for the idea! Sounds good.

[Realnicolbolas]

its an interesting concept but it seems abusable.
as in:
>do 12 man ZG
>get full 20 man ZG loot
it seems like a quick and easy way to get lots of loot

[Badling]

Smultron here, got a few hours as 60 now!

Yes please make this a thing, sounds like it could be alot of fun! since we can usualy pull together 10-15 people right now!

making it optional sure why not, might be nice for anyone who only wants the "real" experience?

Thanks for all the hard work, best server ever!

[Walters]

Honestly. You should had started this server with this feature, the population could have been huge by now. But sadly, at this moment (only 1 month before classic) it is not worth the time.

[Skullmiser]

I don't really like it... If you you only have 20, you do Zul'Gurub or AQ 20. If you only have about ten, you do Upper Blackrock Spire. If you don't have a key, keep running Lower Blackrock.

If this is implemented, then there should be some population value on which we agree ahead of time that this would no longer be needed.

[Bazou]

It's a good idea and I like it! I came from another vanilla server called "Retro", and they went further, squeezing down to 5-persons-raid, but the farming didn't bring good for the community. the relationship among players in Retro became more and more chilly, and the desire for top-end gears
became more and more intense. So I suggest that the number of people can be reduced, but not reduced to 5.

Once again, I sincerely thank the developers' effort !You guys are the BEST!

[Lefaux]

The more I think it through the less I like it.
I don't know about you, but raiding things like MC and Ony and (to a degree) BWL are more than trivial.
The challenge for me is to get 40 people working together.
And the reward is getting me AND the other 39 people sweet purples apart from my main motivation: having an amazing time with them.
So I can optimize my play time - by shortening the raidsize to 20 people, finding more dedicated people only focussed on one thing: Epic Items.
It takes the soul out of raiding for me and since I don't play progress (let's face it.... the bosses have been defeated 15 years ago) I'd rather keep the soul than optimizing loot drops.
Speaking of drops:
Gearing up a raid twice as fast shortens overall playing time.
Following that logic, why play at all?
Pompa could just put the items up on the shop for [iLvl] = [Turtle Token].

Raiding in Vanilla is not about skill.
It's about dedication... mainly a timesink.
But for me the timesink is about the joy of one of my fellow raiders completing their set or finally getting that killer trinket.

And finally I for myself can say that it's a different thing to down Hakkar with 20 people or having a high pitched noise in my ear for 15 minutes because 40 people went mental on Discord because Ragnaros bit the dust.

[Pompa]

The more I think it through the less I like it.
I don't know about you, but raiding things like MC and Ony and (to a degree) BWL are more than trivial.
The challenge for me is to get 40 people working together.
And the reward is getting me AND the other 39 people sweet purples apart from my main motivation: having an amazing time with them.
So I can optimize my play time - by shortening the raidsize to 20 people, finding more dedicated people only focussed on one thing: Epic Items.
It takes the soul out of raiding for me and since I don't play progress (let's face it.... the bosses have been defeated 15 years ago) I'd rather keep the soul than optimizing loot drops.
Speaking of drops:
Gearing up a raid twice as fast shortens overall playing time.
Following that logic, why play at all?
Pompa could just put the items up on the shop for [iLvl] = [Turtle Token].

Raiding in Vanilla is not about skill.
It's about dedication... mainly a timesink.
But for me the timesink is about the joy of one of my fellow raiders completing their set or finally getting that killer trinket.

And finally I for myself can say that it's a different thing to down Hakkar with 20 people or having a high pitched noise in my ear for 15 minutes because 40 people went mental on Discord because Ragnaros bit the dust.

First of all, thank for your feedback and your compromise to this server, Lefaux.

I understand you, but you must understand too that we don't have a Blizzlike population. Because of that, we can't have Blizzlike required players. You just recently reached level 60, but there are players that have been doing UBRS and 5 man instances for more than half a year, and many of them left, which is understandable. It's not fair to not let them progress.

However, remember two things: the mechanics (and spell damage / effects) are the same and the possibility of doing those raids with 20 and 40 people will still exist.

It hurts when a player leaves, specially if it's a level 60 one. I love our players and every decision I make is to let them have fun and a good time in our Turtle realm.

[Lefaux]

Don't get me wrong please.
I fully understand why you plan to roll the change out and your reasoning is sound.
It's a necessity.

Think of it like taxes.
I don't like paying 4000 EUR in taxes each month, yet I understand the necessity for taxes :)
Still doesn't make me like it

I will remain dedicated to this realm no matter if you roll the change out or not.
To me, being part of a community is much like being married... through good times and bad times ;-)

[Kazgrim]

You pay 4000 EUR a month???? U must make some serious bank


On topic:

I like the idea, I just hope that the level of difficulty remains the same. Also, turtle tokens for players who arnt scaling sounds like a good reward.

[Skullmiser]

I like small servers, because all the guilds tend to be more inclusive. Less choosy, more accepting.. but now if someone is not totally optimal, it may be better to not take them at all, since it'll just make things harder for everyone, scaling it up a bit.

I still don't like the idea.

[Pompa]

I like small servers, because all the guilds tend to be more inclusive. Less choosy, more accepting.. but now if someone is not totally optimal, it may be better to not take them at all, since it'll just make things harder for everyone, scaling it up a bit.

I still don't like the idea.

Thanks a lot for your feedback, and I'm sorry you don't like it. However, I don't think what you say will happen here.

Please, read the answer I wrote for Lefaux. Adaptation is key.

[Sesostris]

Athena here!
I love you guys for all your effort and hard work.
I love the change and believe that it will work fine as long as we collaborate to make it run smoothly.
Keep up the good work.

[Torta]

Scaling is now live. Thank you for all your feedback, let's hope this change will do us only good.

[Kainnee]

I understand you, but you must understand too that we don't have a Blizzlike population. Because of that, we can't have Blizzlike required players. You just recently reached level 60, but there are players that have been doing UBRS and 5 man instances for more than half a year, and many of them left, which is understandable. It's not fair to not let them progress.

However, remember two things: the mechanics (and spell damage / effects) are the same and the possibility of doing those raids with 20 and 40 people will still exist.

It hurts when a player leaves, specially if it's a level 60 one. I love our players and every decision I make is to let them have fun and a good time in our Turtle realm.

"Old" lvl 60 here, in fact first alliance lvl 60, and here are my two cents: Every decision that goes against the spirit of the game is a negative one for me. I love leveling in vanilla and I love raiding in vanilla. It's why I still do it after 14 years. Lvl 40 raids are precisely the reason I play vanilla after all. Sizing down raids was one of the (imo) worst decisions they did to the game and the reason why I can't even stand TBC or WotLk. I - as a longtime lvl 60 - would rather not have scaled down raids. I'd also rather not have crossfaction. I do know that I can't get everything I wish for and there are compromises to be made but I just want to say: Decisions like this can also be the reason why players leave.

About the implemented downscaling: As a raidleader and player who outperforms 99,9% of the people he plays with in a raid environment I can only recommend that you scale down the loot as well. Also, this should explicitly (like crossfaction) be a thing tied to the low population and small lvl 60 community. Once/If the server can live without this feature, it should be disabled asap.

regards,
Kainnee

[Sinrek]

Where's the line when we don't need it?

[Seelenschmied]

I think it is a superb thing for this relatively small server.

[Walters]

As a raidleader and player who outperforms 99,9% of the people he plays with

Your highness! Where can we get in line for a chance to take a smell of your sacred farts??? Srsly, what a tool.

Also:
>> loves raiding
>> can't even stand TBC or WotLk (where people actually started rading) FACEPALM_TURTLE

He is either biggest troll out here or just another wannabe "veteran".

AS FOR THE TOPIC once again: for a small pop server its a GREAT idea, but sadly too late (weeks before classic)

[Lefaux]

I'm not 100% sure if "finishing early" is always a good trait.
Will ask my wife what she thinks about this

[Kainnee]

Your highness! Where can we get in line for a chance to take a smell of your sacred farts??? Srsly, what a tool.

Also:
>> loves raiding
>> can't even stand TBC or WotLk (where people actually started rading) FACEPALM_TURTLE

He is either biggest troll out here or just another wannabe "veteran".

AS FOR THE TOPIC once again: for a small pop server its a GREAT idea, but sadly too late (weeks before classic)

Scoff all you want. I don't care. If loot isn't downsized, not-so-good players may eventually face difficulties getting into raids, that's all I'm saying. Instead of taking everybody who's at least able to pull his own weight, people might start looking closer "at the meters" and rather raid with less than 40 than taking a scrub to fill a spot.

[Lefaux]

Can you help me out what you mean by "downsized"?
Do you mean
a) less loot-drops per boss
b) lower stats on the gear
c) both a) and b)
d) something else I didn't think of

[Walters]

Can you help me out what you mean by "downsized"?
Do you mean
a) less loot-drops per boss
b) lower stats on the gear
c) both a) and b)
d) something else I didn't think of

He means a) - loot system that was implemented in Flexible raids, where boss drop depends on raid size. But he COMPLETELY CANT UNDERSTAND, that even "a scrub" will do at least some damage in Flex, when in 40- ( not full 40) raids you got slots dealing ZERO damage at all. Blizzard cut flex loot only to avoid people gearing too fast with minimum size raids, which IS NOT the main problem of this server (but the low pop is)

[Ashiel]

I think this is a great idea.