Undead Paladins (with a lot of BUTs)

[Roadie]

obviously this topic has been existing for forever and was always a meme, but just considering that it, most unlikelly, but could be actually implemented, could make lots of people actually happy, but also ruin expirience for LOTS and LOTS of people

The thing is, having just a smaaaaaaaaall portion of people actually having undead paladin would be actually fitting, since undead can be priests and get acces to the Light powers, and even Argent Dawn has undeads - https://www.wowhead.com/classic/npc=110 ... he-revered

BUT
Obviusly people will start creating lots of ud palas which will ruin balance, that means that the acces to creating such... monstrosity... should be limited
For example...
1. Big hard questline
2. Giving the accesibility through hardcore challenge (somehow :D)
3. Doing something like the story of Tirion becoming an outcast paladin https://youtu.be/PTsSb9onUyw
4. Some kind of limited event?
5. ???
6. PROFIT

BUT
The undead paladin could be insanelly owerpowered, which mean he should be nerfed somewhat and somehow
1. Being enemy of Alliance (they don't accept undead) and Horde (they don't count as forsaken and they are weeeeeird), which means they will have acces only to neutral cities
2. Creating and undead paladin should be INSANELLY hard or atleast little to no worth for most people
3. obviously no canibalism as a racial ability :D
4. Undead paladin starts from level one
5. Being cosmetical? lol?
6. Being able to be killed by any faction

Acces to battlegrounds could be a problem, but I guess the "mercenary work for Horde" (playing on horde side) will do more sense than not being able to do bgs



also didn't think about anything on dwarf shamans or something like that to give "opposite faction" a chance of being cool too
hydration check, posture check

[Roadie]

having just <15 ud palas on the whole server also could be good. Doesn't really change things dramatically in the game, and that could be a direct improvement to the RP scene (these <15 ud paladins would most likelly be under GMs watch/be really close to GMs/be GMs, which can make a real big and great connection with the RP guilds for player-developer interraction)

even tho they could prolly be targeted real hard by the players, but the got bubble + hearth XD

[Syrathegreat]

I don't really understand the need to put limits on Undead Paladins if they're implemented - like other combos they'll cause a surge when introduced but will even out over time. And as you said they make sense within the lore, at least to the same extent as orc warlocks being accepted, as well as the oft cited undead priests. And on the population side there shouldn't be a lot of high elves (or even gnomes) either due to the decimations of their populations in lore but we can suspend disbelief for that.

I think the main issue for undead paladins (and dwarf shamans etc) is how much work it would be to implement them. There's no existing quest infrastructure for paladins horde side so quests would have to be entirely created from scratch for something that is only available to a fraction of the population. Furthermore new models for the paladin mounts would have to be handcrafted so it's a huge amount of work, especially compared to just adding other class options.

I think if Turtle does add paladins to horde and shamans to alliance, Undead would be the best option, however with how much work it would take I don't think it's worth it until much later at least.

[Zirek]

Bad idea and the problem is not the balance . Problem is making ud being able to paladin could hurt the immersion of the game in the long run .

[Arduron]

The only way an undead paladin works is if they weren't Forsaken, and even then, the chances of an undead retaining faith in the Light after being cursed into undeath is so low in lore already.

The Forsaken as a faction, despise the Light for the pain it now causes them and that it could not save them. That's why they have the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow as a mocking replacement and a new path to power.

The slimmest and extremely flimsy path is for any forsaken paladin to function would be to be in secret like the human warlocks ostensibly do, but with the eyes Varimathras and Sylvanas have everywhere this would be a lot harder because the Light is a source of hope, and neither of them want their pawns to have hope.

While SI:7 probably is aware of the human warlocks, they probably at least see them as a useful tool, the same can't be said for how the Forsaken leadership would see paladins.

[Ishilu]

Undead paladins in the horde... I'm against this for 2 reasons.

A) immersion, as posted above. Undead barely fit into the wc3 horde anyway, and Undead paladins... I just don't see it. Personal taste, admittedly.

B) faction balance. Giving the paladins to a horde race (I know, forsaken 'horde'...) would make it necessary to give shamans to the alliance, if only to allow for the same class combinations in pvp.

Possible solution: move Undead from the horde to their own faction, maybe toss in blood elves and leper gnomes too, for diversity.

The effort might be too big, however.

[Mac]

Just charge like five hundred euros for unusual race/class combos (like Forsaken Paladin or Gnome Druid). Then the people who really, really, really want to play them can do so in a way that supports the server and also keeps those combos rare.

[Kefke]

Undead paladins in the horde... I'm against this for 2 reasons.

A) immersion, as posted above. Undead barely fit into the wc3 horde anyway, and Undead paladins... I just don't see it. Personal taste, admittedly.

B) faction balance. Giving the paladins to a horde race (I know, forsaken 'horde'...) would make it necessary to give shamans to the alliance, if only to allow for the same class combinations in pvp.

Possible solution: move Undead from the horde to their own faction, maybe toss in blood elves and leper gnomes too, for diversity.

The effort might be too big, however.

A brilliant solution! Faction 3 gets Undead, making room for Ogres in the Horde.

[Andromath]

Rather than Paladin, might it be possible for Forsaken to receive, 'Death Knight,' as a class?

Take the Paladin class, and re-skin the abilities to be more shadowy/necrotic? I can only imagine the kind of time and resources it would take to make that happen, but it would be thematically appropriate and open up the mechanics of the class to the race, and thus to the Horde at large. I doubt there are enough shadowy-based spell visuals in the game to reskin every Paladin ability to something appropriate, but perhaps there are enough where it's not necessarily off the table.

As a trade-off, perhaps the Shaman class's skills could be re-skinned as a, 'Battle-Mage,' class for an Alliance race? Instead of totems, drop some crystals on the ground? Self-Polymorph to turn into... well, why not a Raven instead of a Wolf? Just can't fly through the skies, but rather, glide over the ground?

[Kefke]

That is an...interesting solution, and a much better DK implementation than the Retail version, I should think.

[Karrados]

Rather than Paladin, might it be possible for Forsaken to receive, 'Death Knight,' as a class?

Take the Paladin class, and re-skin the abilities to be more shadowy/necrotic? I can only imagine the kind of time and resources it would take to make that happen, but it would be thematically appropriate and open up the mechanics of the class to the race, and thus to the Horde at large. I doubt there are enough shadowy-based spell visuals in the game to reskin every Paladin ability to something appropriate, but perhaps there are enough where it's not necessarily off the table.

As a trade-off, perhaps the Shaman class's skills could be re-skinned as a, 'Battle-Mage,' class for an Alliance race? Instead of totems, drop some crystals on the ground? Self-Polymorph to turn into... well, why not a Raven instead of a Wolf? Just can't fly through the skies, but rather, glide over the ground?

Only problem that I can see with this is that Paladins on the Alliance side would be straight up better due to what I assume would be a change in the Damage from Holy to Shadow.

Holy is almost impossible to block against, Shadow has auras, spells and pots to block if needed. That kind of situation would not happen with Shamans.

[Andromath]

Rather than Paladin, might it be possible for Forsaken to receive, 'Death Knight,' as a class?

Take the Paladin class, and re-skin the abilities to be more shadowy/necrotic? I can only imagine the kind of time and resources it would take to make that happen, but it would be thematically appropriate and open up the mechanics of the class to the race, and thus to the Horde at large. I doubt there are enough shadowy-based spell visuals in the game to reskin every Paladin ability to something appropriate, but perhaps there are enough where it's not necessarily off the table.

As a trade-off, perhaps the Shaman class's skills could be re-skinned as a, 'Battle-Mage,' class for an Alliance race? Instead of totems, drop some crystals on the ground? Self-Polymorph to turn into... well, why not a Raven instead of a Wolf? Just can't fly through the skies, but rather, glide over the ground?

Only problem that I can see with this is that Paladins on the Alliance side would be straight up better due to what I assume would be a change in the Damage from Holy to Shadow.

Holy is almost impossible to block against, Shadow has auras, spells and pots to block if needed. That kind of situation would not happen with Shamans.

Well, why not just mechanically leave the damage as Holy, but use Shadow visuals? Same mechanics and skills/abilities, just a different look?

[Mac]

"They don't do Holy damage. They do UNHOLY damage."

It works. I think the idea of reskinning Paladins to be Death Knights for the Horde is a decent idea. Perhaps one issue would be the lack of an Animate Dead ability. A pet ghoul is kind of iconic to the class. Maybe the solution there would be to give racial spells to Paladins/Death Knights, and the Forsaken's one could be Animate Undead. Sort of like how Orc Shamans got their doggies.

As for what you reskin Shamans to for Alliance, I think Runemaster could work.

[Etarpylon]

Really, classes being restricted to specific races is a concept exclusive to video game RPGs. If it were allowable, I would've rolled a Forsaken Druid, a Forsaken Shaman, and a Forsaken Paladin and made cool backstories for each.

However, the way race/class combos are would also require more extensive racials since Vanilla is extremely rigid in its minmaxing. Undead wouldn't even be the best in slot for Paladin as a class, as that's explicitly Human. Either Troll or Orc would be better gameplay-wise, with maybe a potential argument for Tauren Paladin. Forsaken Paladin would exclusively be played for PvP.

[Mac]

Really, classes being restricted to specific races is a concept exclusive to video game RPGs.

That's not entirely true. In AD&D, classes were restricted by race. For example, only Humans and Half-Elves could be Druids. This was more or less dropped in third edition D&D, but that didn't stop AD&D from influencing a lot of other role-playing games, including EverQuest, which also had race restrictions for classes. WoW was influenced heavily by EverQuest, which is why no Forsaken Druids.

[Etarpylon]

Really, classes being restricted to specific races is a concept exclusive to video game RPGs.

That's not entirely true. In AD&D, classes were restricted by race. For example, only Humans and Half-Elves could be Druids. This was more or less dropped in third edition D&D, but that didn't stop AD&D from influencing a lot of other role-playing games, including EverQuest, which also had race restrictions for classes. WoW was influenced heavily by EverQuest, which is why no Forsaken Druids.

Right, I forgot AD&D was a thing. Granted, I think tabletop abandoning class/race restrictions was for the better in general. I would love to play a Goblin Monk idea but there's nowhere for it in any WoW pserver (and if I try Cataclysm I would have to do Kezan Skip to not immediately hate Goblins)

[Mac]

Right, I forgot AD&D was a thing. Granted, I think tabletop abandoning class/race restrictions was for the better in general. I would love to play a Goblin Monk idea but there's nowhere for it in any WoW pserver (and if I try Cataclysm I would have to do Kezan Skip to not immediately hate Goblins)

I definitely agree with that.

[Markuis]

I guess the wow universe relies deeply in stereotypes for some aspects of the game, like race/class combos. I think I agree that it shouldn't be that weird for X race character to be almost any class (other that being mechanically impossible, like a gnome being a warrior, or in this case, undead channeling something that causes them pain). But we are players, our story doesn't need to match the story of our race. We decide our char's background. Maybe our orc's parents were killed in the wilderness and he was found as a baby by a NE druid, or our goblin has some cool story about why someone he cared about was killed because money/greed and he is completely different.

Do races have to stick to their stereotypes? I think the novels let us see they don't have to. And only real difficulties, like a lack of affinity for magic, smelling tasty to beasts or that fel energy make them lose control, should be taken into account.

[Andromath]

"They don't do Holy damage. They do UNHOLY damage."

It works. I think the idea of reskinning Paladins to be Death Knights for the Horde is a decent idea. Perhaps one issue would be the lack of an Animate Dead ability. A pet ghoul is kind of iconic to the class. Maybe the solution there would be to give racial spells to Paladins/Death Knights, and the Forsaken's one could be Animate Undead. Sort of like how Orc Shamans got their doggies.

As for what you reskin Shamans to for Alliance, I think Runemaster could work.

Alternatively, perhaps Forsaken Death Knights don't raise ghouls because of moral reasons?

"We know what it is like to be beholden to the will of another. We will not create new undead slaves to serve us, as we were forced to serve the Lich King."

[Mac]

Alternatively, perhaps Forsaken Death Knights don't raise ghouls because of moral reasons?

"We know what it is like to be beholden to the will of another. We will not create new undead slaves to serve us, as we were forced to serve the Lich King."

That works, too.

[Acornacorn]

Rather than Paladin, might it be possible for Forsaken to receive, 'Death Knight,' as a class?

Take the Paladin class, and re-skin the abilities to be more shadowy/necrotic? I can only imagine the kind of time and resources it would take to make that happen, but it would be thematically appropriate and open up the mechanics of the class to the race, and thus to the Horde at large. I doubt there are enough shadowy-based spell visuals in the game to reskin every Paladin ability to something appropriate, but perhaps there are enough where it's not necessarily off the table.

As a trade-off, perhaps the Shaman class's skills could be re-skinned as a, 'Battle-Mage,' class for an Alliance race? Instead of totems, drop some crystals on the ground? Self-Polymorph to turn into... well, why not a Raven instead of a Wolf? Just can't fly through the skies, but rather, glide over the ground?

Only problem that I can see with this is that Paladins on the Alliance side would be straight up better due to what I assume would be a change in the Damage from Holy to Shadow.

Holy is almost impossible to block against, Shadow has auras, spells and pots to block if needed. That kind of situation would not happen with Shamans.

give alliance shamans all arcane damage only. Then it's fair. You can block arcane damage just as easily as shadow.

I think Sorcerer's should be High Elves only and DK's for Undead. Or you could add Night Elves and Orcs. Since Orcs were the first DK's that fits.

[Andromath]

I think Sorcerer's should be High Elves only and DK's for Undead. Or you could add Night Elves and Orcs. Since Orcs were the first DK's that fits.

Well, if we went with Runemasters, then Dwarves would make the most sense for such a class I think. Battlemage would be generic enough that I suppose any race with mages could pick it up, so maybe Runemaster is the better option.

Orcish Death Knights from the Second War were more like casters than the tanky, plate-wearing Death Knights of the Scourge, which are the Death Knights I'd assume Forsaken would be more closely related to. I think for Shamans and Paladin to mechanically change faction in the theorized manner, it might be better/easier to simply keep it to one race each for the time being.

Not that I wouldn't mind a High Elven Sorcerer/Battlemage, of course, but you'll find Sorcerers and Battlemages among humans too, so it doesn't quite make as much sense to make it strictly High Elf.

[Wrathweaver]

The only reason i even tried Alliance almost 20 years ago, was because of paladin and its unique mechanics, concept and style.
Loved paladin since wc3.

At hearth i am Undead and Horde, always have been and find a lot of things about Alliance to be slightly feminine and weird to be honest.
Dwarf was the only race that was acceptable to me at the time.
But it was a whole new and unique questing experience with its own zones that i still remember it to this day.

Death knight sounds really really cool and all.

But why would horde play Alliance when horde has a cooler version of paladin?
Why play Horde if Alliance has their own version of shamans?

Thinking of starting a NE priest because of starshard for spec variety during leveling solo.
If we added "darkshard" for undead priest, why would i try something new and explore a side of azheroth that i havent played much?

Horde and Alliance exclusive is a good thing all things considered, when the blizz of the visuals of DK is over... i will be playing the same zones as i have played for too many years already.
And you will realise that it is just a paladin with a cooler skin.

But if something like this is ever added, please let them be mana based like in WC and not rune/energy based.

[Mac]

Orcish Death Knights from the Second War were more like casters than the tanky, plate-wearing Death Knights of the Scourge, which are the Death Knights I'd assume Forsaken would be more closely related to. I think for Shamans and Paladin to mechanically change faction in the theorized manner, it might be better/easier to simply keep it to one race each for the time being.

Yes. The Orc Death Knights of Warcraft II were also corpses of human knights that had the souls of dead Orc warlocks put into them. If you wanted to role-play as one of these character, it would make more sense to make a Forsaken Warlock.

[Artofwill]

Let's be real if horde gets Paladins the pvp scene would be so lop sided towards horde the devs will never hear the end of alliance QQ. Prove me wrong.

[Noce]

it also would be nice to be a dwarf shaman whos affiliation is with horde. think about that. pick any race and pick any side. like pandas. or stay neutral :).

why keep dk only for undeads? arn't original dks orcs? id say give horde und and orc dk. if its even possible to get new class. while we are at it, give us necromancers! its rly stupid not to have nercos from start. blizz made a big mistake. even those monks/dh. also give aliance shamans. dwarfs + add new race - Furbolg/Tuskarr. and we need Ogres! that way we are all balanced.

[Karrados]

Let's be real if horde gets Paladins the pvp scene would be so lop sided towards horde the devs will never hear the end of alliance QQ. Prove me wrong.

Well right now it is utterly lopsided towards the Alliance, the Horde players are rightfully complaining and after all this time the Devs still have not really given more than "We are aware, we are working on it" which already has been a little while now.