Warlocks in raids

[Kosmion]

Are we destined to spam shadowbolt or how is the debuff limit on this server?

[Redmagejoe]

Debuff limit can be turned off serverside, just can't display all debuffs on the archaic client. Dev team needs to decide if they're okay with removing the limit if people can't see their debuffs, so add your voice to the discussion.

[Kosmion]

so that means we can actually go with DoT builds but we wont just be able to see them on boss portrait?

[Markuis]

so that means we can actually go with DoT builds but we wont just be able to see them on boss portrait?

No. There is a debuff limit right now. If it's removed, allegedly the other debuffs won't show. But the limit is still there right now.

[Schwarzschild]

so that means we can actually go with DoT builds but we wont just be able to see them on boss portrait?

No. There is a debuff limit right now. If it's removed, allegedly the other debuffs won't show. But the limit is still there right now.

Unfortunately that means raid content is not an option for me on Turtle WoW.
Maybe they should have used the TBC or even WotLK client as a baseline to build Turtle WoW...

[Kefke]

As a fan of Ret. Paladin, I'm kind of in the same boat, if not as badly. Turtle has given a boost to Ret, but one of their key abilities is a debuff that mainly only benefits other Paladins, so it's unlikely to be in most groups' allowed list.

[Markuis]

so that means we can actually go with DoT builds but we wont just be able to see them on boss portrait?

No. There is a debuff limit right now. If it's removed, allegedly the other debuffs won't show. But the limit is still there right now.

Unfortunately that means raid content is not an option for me on Turtle WoW.
Maybe they should have used the TBC or even WotLK client as a baseline to build Turtle WoW...

Yeah. I've only raided in WotLK a little (Naxx and a few other small raids) but this limit is what keeps me from trying here.

[Totuga]

5

[Schwarzschild]

Having a debuff limit is a design flaw.
There is no point on having an artificial limitation that makes playing certain classes/specs impossible in raid content.
You know, like the old ret pally, that turtle so masterfully replaced by our beloved turtle paladin.

I would love to read the rationale for keeping it.

Joe, you tend to be everywhere here. Have you come across any?

The only rationale (other than pure nostalgia) would be that applying more or an unlimited amount of debuffs equals a significant nerf to all bosses due to the resulting power creep. Then the question is whether to keep them as is or to buff the bosses in an attempt to partially compensate for that.

Alternatively (or additionally), certain rules concerning debuffs could be kept, i.e., stronger DoTs keep overriding weaker ones (in TBC they all simply stacked, e.g., 5 Corruptions and 3 Curses of Agony on a boss etc). However, this would again mean that any warlock let's say, is doomed to keep spamming Shadowbolt unless they are the one with the strongest DoTs in the raid. Nevertheless, this could also motive spec diversity, e.g., a dedicated Affli lock who gets the Curroption and CoA slots, while the other WLs keep spamming SB and apply the other curses.

While this would at least still enable one of each underdog debuff and DoT (from Serpent Sting to Moonfire and Seal of the Crusader), a main motivation for removing the debuff limit in the first place is still not fulfilled, as there most likely are more than one of most class-specs in each 40-raid, who want to apply their DoTs... Nevertheless, if the Devs shy away from removing the debuff limit due to the resulting power creep, then this would be a better solution than the situation we have right now... It would mean only a small power creep while at the same time increasing diversity in playstyles and raid composition by a more than moderate amount.

[Totuga]

What about debuff categories?

You can only have one curse per warlock right now.
If power creep is the issue, make the power creeping debuffs overlap/not stack. Or (not sure if possible) make "some debuffs ignore the cap"
For example: a boss can have unlimited shadow word pain (damage debuff) but is capped to X non-damaging ones

Although considering some of the turtle quest rewards, I'd risk that noy being the issue.

Edit: playing with the debuff stack order would wreck pvp, so it should either be an npc only thing if applied

[Schwarzschild]

What about debuff categories?

You can only have one curse per warlock right now.
If power creep is the issue, make the power creeping debuffs overlap/not stack. Or (not sure if possible) make "some debuffs ignore the cap"
For example: a boss can have unlimited shadow word pain (damage debuff) but is capped to X non-damaging ones

Although considering some of the turtle quest rewards, I'd risk that noy being the issue.

Edit: playing with the debuff stack order would wreck pvp, so it should either be an npc only thing if applied

I tend to disfavor such over-complicating extra rules. Specifically anything that artificially separates PvE and PvP is very "un-vanilla" (I always disliked the concept of Resilience rating for that reason).

The more I think of it, the more I like the compromise solution I detailed in my previous post. Remove debuff limit, but maintain that stronger DoTs override weaker versions of the same spell to constrain the power creep somewhat and potentially motivate more spec-diversity.

[Totuga]

4

[Schwarzschild]

I tend to disfavor such over-complicating extra rules. Specifically anything that artificially separates PvE and PvP is very "un-vanilla"

+1 to this. Perfect point and I will try to never suggest these kind of bad thing again. Thank you for showing me the wrong in what I said (this is NOT sarcasm)

OTOH, your solution seems bad. It would discourage fairness in loot distribution (give more to the lock with more) and foster a unhealthy competition.
We need to think this through a bit more. I have no answer to this coundrum.

The only other solution that is not another over-complication of things would then be to remove the debuff limit implementing a TBC-like DoT-stacking and buffing bosses in 40-raids accordingly to compensate. Mechanics should not be changed, but I estimate that HP have to be increased ~10-15% and dmg by ~5-10%. However, I can understand the devs' hesitance to undertake such a step. However, it can happen only once that you remove a debuff limit, so such a step would remain pretty unique.