Some spell & talent suggestions

Ravenstone
Posts: 66

Re: Some spell & talent suggestions

Post by Ravenstone » Mon Jan 16, 2023 10:22 pm

Sen8sei wrote:
Mon Jan 16, 2023 9:28 pm
No, I don't see threat as an annoyance, it's a good game mechanic at a fundamental level. I've also never suggested it should not exist. Going back to the arguments being made here so far, it's basically been stated that Improved Righteous Fury is the only reason why paladins spec into the prot tree. That alone should speak volumes to how bad it is, because a multiplier carrying an entire tree is beyond idiotic, and if paladins are not going full prot, then why even acquire that talent in the first place.

If paladins are already the best tanks except for raidbosses, then who cares if Righteous Fury's baseline spell is multiplied up to 80% or 100% instead of 60%.
Well, your previous post led me to believe you didn't want threat at all since you were arguing about how it is in retail and how everyone can just can just focus on DPSing the enemies down. If you think threat should stay then great, we're on the same page now.

We said Imp. Righteous Fury was one of the only reasons, the other one being Holy Shield which is worthwhile/necessary in Prot.

I find your reasoning quite backward here to be honest. You think that the first thing to change in the talent tree is to completely remove one of the only talents to make someone go Prot in the first place, not to make the rest of the tree more attractive to the player. Which suggests you are fine advocating that a different talent tree should be the tank tree. This is exactly why I don't understand your thinking and why I think there is other stuff to rework in Prot before looking at Righteous Fury. It's one of the only things that works in the tree.

Regardless of how idiotic you might find the talent, can't you see it makes even less sense to remove it before changing the rest of the tree first?

Noce
Posts: 19

Re: Some spell & talent suggestions

Post by Noce » Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:55 am

well honestly shamans need to get update of their own. and alot of changes need to be done.

- rework on totems. mbe remove/combine some totems and introduce new ones like Wrath of Air Totem - Flametongue Totem - Totem of Wrath from wotlk

- rework on some talents and talent tree spots like Totemic Focus and Tidal Focus and Elemental Devastation, Elemental Focus, Earth's Grasp, Elemental Warding; give resto tree a Improved Chain Heal - Improved Earth Shield; Lightning Shield - Thunderhead gotta be reworked so u can use it properly; give enha tree a Shamanistic Rage - Improved Stormstrike

- give us new spells or devide some so we can have smtn like Earth Shock- Wind Shear - Taunt. its also a nice touch to enable a Lightning Shock; Water Shield Earth Shield should be enabled to have it while lvling up; Calm Elements need a total rework; remake Stormstrike so it gives elemental dmg increase, not just nature, so we can use frost and fire shocks also

- make new Weapon Imbues for resto/ele specs. to do smtn like this: Increases healing and spell damage done / gives your successful spell cast/mele attacks chance to regenerate mana / use up 1 water shield + some small dmg bonus/att power bonus

- make smtn to have a chance to instantly gain mana as if you consumed a Water Shield Orb when you gain a critical effect from mele/cast. it can be done deep into all talent trees from Elemental Focus / Improved Stormstrike / Shamanistic Focus / Shamanistic Rage / Improved Water Shield etc..

Sen8sei
Posts: 21

Re: Some spell & talent suggestions

Post by Sen8sei » Fri Jan 20, 2023 6:09 pm

Ravenstone wrote:
Mon Jan 16, 2023 10:22 pm
Sen8sei wrote:
Mon Jan 16, 2023 9:28 pm
No, I don't see threat as an annoyance, it's a good game mechanic at a fundamental level. I've also never suggested it should not exist. Going back to the arguments being made here so far, it's basically been stated that Improved Righteous Fury is the only reason why paladins spec into the prot tree. That alone should speak volumes to how bad it is, because a multiplier carrying an entire tree is beyond idiotic, and if paladins are not going full prot, then why even acquire that talent in the first place.

If paladins are already the best tanks except for raidbosses, then who cares if Righteous Fury's baseline spell is multiplied up to 80% or 100% instead of 60%.
Well, your previous post led me to believe you didn't want threat at all since you were arguing about how it is in retail and how everyone can just can just focus on DPSing the enemies down. If you think threat should stay then great, we're on the same page now.

We said Imp. Righteous Fury was one of the only reasons, the other one being Holy Shield which is worthwhile/necessary in Prot.

I find your reasoning quite backward here to be honest. You think that the first thing to change in the talent tree is to completely remove one of the only talents to make someone go Prot in the first place, not to make the rest of the tree more attractive to the player. Which suggests you are fine advocating that a different talent tree should be the tank tree. This is exactly why I don't understand your thinking and why I think there is other stuff to rework in Prot before looking at Righteous Fury. It's one of the only things that works in the tree.

Regardless of how idiotic you might find the talent, can't you see it makes even less sense to remove it before changing the rest of the tree first?
Definitely. The tree has too many useless talents and needs a rework or certain talents need to be replaced with something better. Namely Reckoning, One-Handed Weapon Specialization, Anticipation. I don't find those talents useful but that's just my opinion. Would like to hear yours or Kairion's since you both seem to have enthusiasm towards this topic.

Kairion
Posts: 313

Re: Some spell & talent suggestions

Post by Kairion » Sat Jan 21, 2023 1:47 am

The thing about Reckoning and One-Handed Weapon Specialization is that they synergize quite poorly with what Tank paladin wants to do.

Reckoning works in theory way better since it does generate more strikes and therefore more procs of Righteousnes. But its absolutely ruined by its activation requirement. The whole goal of a tank is to not get crit in the first place. And weirdly enough, the better your gear the worse Rechoning becomes.

I actually think its healthy for the game if both 31 point prot and 30 point ret tanks have their place. So i wouldn't want to have these two talents just make vengeance tanking obsolete. Vengeance pushes you to play offensively and equip crit gear.

If the talents are to be made better, i'd say reckoning should proc on parry instead of getting crit. then you can itemize and take adventage of your talent, rather than actively trying to avoid it from ever proccing.


A lot of your TPS is from spelldamage. One-Handed Weapon Specialization does petty much nothing for your TPS and only boosts your dps marginally because you don't have much physical melee damage to slap that 10% extra damage on top. It is mildly useful when using slow tankweapons to convert much of your physical damage into holy on avoidance sets, but its so niche and even in the situation where it shines, its weak. It'd be much more interesting when you could add the additional 10% damage as holy. But i guess this creates a whole can of worms to solve in terms of procs etc.
I think it can be a mediocore talent. But not if the 31 point talent also sucks. So i'd focus on adjusting ardent defender first.

Anticipation is boring, but it does its job. It gets you some blockchance for manaregen as well as some improved defenses. I'd say if an amazing idea comes up that needs a talent spot, it can be repalced, but if an idea has to be forced, rather leave it in for now.

Sen8sei
Posts: 21

Re: Some spell & talent suggestions

Post by Sen8sei » Sat Jan 21, 2023 2:42 am

Kairion wrote:
Sat Jan 21, 2023 1:47 am
The thing about Reckoning and One-Handed Weapon Specialization is that they synergize quite poorly with what Tank paladin wants to do.

Reckoning works in theory way better since it does generate more strikes and therefore more procs of Righteousnes. But its absolutely ruined by its activation requirement. The whole goal of a tank is to not get crit in the first place. And weirdly enough, the better your gear the worse Rechoning becomes.

I actually think its healthy for the game if both 31 point prot and 30 point ret tanks have their place. So i wouldn't want to have these two talents just make vengeance tanking obsolete. Vengeance pushes you to play offensively and equip crit gear.

If the talents are to be made better, i'd say reckoning should proc on parry instead of getting crit. then you can itemize and take adventage of your talent, rather than actively trying to avoid it from ever proccing.


A lot of your TPS is from spelldamage. One-Handed Weapon Specialization does petty much nothing for your TPS and only boosts your dps marginally because you don't have much physical melee damage to slap that 10% extra damage on top. It is mildly useful when using slow tankweapons to convert much of your physical damage into holy on avoidance sets, but its so niche and even in the situation where it shines, its weak. It'd be much more interesting when you could add the additional 10% damage as holy. But i guess this creates a whole can of worms to solve in terms of procs etc.
I think it can be a mediocore talent. But not if the 31 point talent also sucks. So i'd focus on adjusting ardent defender first.

Anticipation is boring, but it does its job. It gets you some blockchance for manaregen as well as some improved defenses. I'd say if an amazing idea comes up that needs a talent spot, it can be repalced, but if an idea has to be forced, rather leave it in for now.
That's a good idea having Reckoning proc as Parry. I haven't played here long enough to find out about Vengeance tanking could you please refer me to where the build info is

Kairion
Posts: 313

Re: Some spell & talent suggestions

Post by Kairion » Sat Jan 21, 2023 8:35 am

Vengeance is 0/21/30 you have to actively try to pick the wrong talents if you want to screw it up. Its currently the standard build for palasin raid tanking

Noce
Posts: 19

Re: Some spell & talent suggestions

Post by Noce » Sat Jan 21, 2023 12:36 pm

i'd also suggest to remake pets to be like shamans feral spirit wolves. to be summ and with duaration. 4 min cd with 30 sec duration. bm hunts get 2 min cd with 1 min duration. it would make nice balance i think in pvp mostly.

also palas are way to op in pvp. thay have all heal-dps-surv-cc. mbe rework some spells, nerf them down in a way so when they r tank they can't dps and heal as much. nerf that bubble also.

shamans must have no cast time for ghost wolf with 2 talents!! also make shields and weapon embue cost no mana or reduce the amount. since shamans have no def, survival, cc options, instant cast for ghost wolf would be ok imo.

also mbe think about removing race specific abilities. make them base spells for all classes no matter race.
for example: i see no point in all shamans not having hex, wolves, bl etc.. i could agree that taurens can keep that spirit link since it was kinda their abilitie but so it was a rebirth and that ended up as base spell. mbe make it as racial for taurens no matter of class.

some other things like having increased stack size for alot items especialy for regents. especialy for wlocks for soulshards. mbe give them a quest so they get ability to have soul shard box with 5 stack size. shamans to get all totems combined via some quest like ultimate totem quest... stuff like that.

mbe give hunters visible ammo pouches and arrow quivers around waist or on back like rambo. and mbe reduce hunts to have only one hand wpns since they carry range coz its hard to have all that on you to carry i guess.

items such as Headmaster's Charge when used, make buff stay even when item is replaced and trinks such as Spectral Essence, Argent Dawn Commission to be made as misc item so they give usage even only in backpack.

Ravenstone
Posts: 66

Re: Some spell & talent suggestions

Post by Ravenstone » Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:12 pm

Sen8sei wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2023 6:09 pm
Definitely. The tree has too many useless talents and needs a rework or certain talents need to be replaced with something better. Namely Reckoning, One-Handed Weapon Specialization, Anticipation. I don't find those talents useful but that's just my opinion. Would like to hear yours or Kairion's since you both seem to have enthusiasm towards this topic.
I've not really had enough experience on Turtle WoW with Prot Paladins thus far so it's more just speculation from me, but Kairion's points are spot on. I do like the Reckoning on Parries. Only a couple things I'd say.

Firstly, and this might just be an OCD of mine, but I'm really annoyed the Prot tree 'forcing' you to spend 32 talent points if you want to pick up Reckoning, One-Handed Weapon Specialization, Holy Shield and Ardent Defender, or just to leave one of the first two at 4/5. There are only a couple trees that have a 5 point talent in the 5th row, everything else lets you round it out nicely. I'd consider making Reckoning a 3 point talent, and having an additional more PvP oriented 2 or 3 point talent like Stoicism from TBC.

Secondly, I think I'd just get rid of One-Handed Weapon Specialization and replace it with a 5 point version of the Ardent Defender replacement that was suggested in the other thread with the constant 10% damage reduction and the stamina increase. Instead having a new ability to use for the 31 pointer, something that can be more tanking related to help solve the threat issues, but I don't want to see Captain America with TBC's Avenger's Shield. Something like WotLK's Divine Storm could help keep the AoE tank aspect, but also aid with the single target threat, though I'm not sure if that'd just be frustrating to balance for PvP, and whether it makes them too strong at AoE tanking.

I've always thought having a passive ability as the 31 point talent feels pretty underwhelming, even if it is a substantial improvement. Having stuff like Trueshot Aura and Leader of the Pack felt nowhere near as satisfying as Mortal Strike for example, but then I guess there is stuff like Shadowform which is basically a passive ability and feels awesome to have. I guess it just needs to feel powerful which Ardent Defender does not.

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Drummbass
Posts: 12

Re: Some spell & talent suggestions

Post by Drummbass » Mon Jan 23, 2023 5:48 pm

Kairion wrote:
Sat Jan 21, 2023 1:47 am
The thing about Reckoning and One-Handed Weapon Specialization is that they synergize quite poorly with what Tank paladin wants to do.

Reckoning works in theory way better since it does generate more strikes and therefore more procs of Righteousnes. But its absolutely ruined by its activation requirement. The whole goal of a tank is to not get crit in the first place. And weirdly enough, the better your gear the worse Rechoning becomes.

I actually think its healthy for the game if both 31 point prot and 30 point ret tanks have their place. So i wouldn't want to have these two talents just make vengeance tanking obsolete. Vengeance pushes you to play offensively and equip crit gear.
I do agree with this statement, it is one of the issues i have with paladins.
Kairion wrote:
Sat Jan 21, 2023 1:47 am
If the talents are to be made better, i'd say reckoning should proc on parry instead of getting crit. then you can itemize and take adventage of your talent, rather than actively trying to avoid it from ever proccing.
I also agree that reckoning isnt good or well thought however, i disagree with activation on parry because paladins (tanks more specifically dont itemize nor push for high parry chance, they focus on threat - spell damage, mitigation - armor,block and obviously - more HP). Here can take a closer look at my ideology but first, lets study protection paladin's mechanics.
A few things to take into consideration are as follows:
Image
this talent increases block chance when taking a hit (parring an attack doesnt count). Then we have Image
Also increases block chance and also deals damage whenever you block. We also have
Image
reduces damage taken and also deals damage when blocking. in a nutshell, we can think of paladin tanks as а "hedgehog" except with an iron spikes on the back and whenever you try to punch that cute little thing you strike its spikes and take reflect damage. That being said i personally believe the talent reckoning should be procing on block chance rather then parry or getting critted, after all, its the 5th row in the prot tree, its supose to be meant for tanks but the question is how often? Whats reasonable and whats too much? To answer that question i will do a little math to calculate it.
For example, lets look at pre raid bis weapons lists for a tankadin - on top of my head i can recall
Image
that drops from strat with abysmal drop rate, then we have
Image
that aproximately has same chance of dropping and lastly, however most expenzive option is to tough it up and buy from AH the famous -> Image

I apologize for all theese links but i felt it was appropriate to show it rather then mentioning it. So, if we take sageblade as example, it has attack speed of 1.8 secs which means it will attack 33 times a minute. if we want to activate reckoning on a successful block, then lets assume 2 secs (for ease of math since most mobs usually attack at this rate) as base, that relates to roughly getting hit about 30 times a minute PER mob. No more than 3 procs per minute should be encountered if we're tanking a single npc, so that leads us to a proc chance of 0.9% or round it upwards to 1%. OK, what happens with this very same proc chance when tanking lets say 5 mobs? With all mobs having a base attack speed of 2 secs, it will trigger reckoning 15 times per minute which is actually huge! if you think about it, when tanking multiple mobs, you'd be using seal of wisdom to regen mana and spam concecretion to keep up threat, if that reckoning procs 15 times a minute it will basically regenerate close to half of your mana pool (assuming you judge wisdom) and deal good damage thanks to seal of righteousness.
That example shows what happens if you block every single attack in a minute duration, its basically impossible due to itemization and the very nature of the game. In reality, you would be having around 15% to 20% base chance of blocking plus redoubt for extra 30% plus holy shield for another 30% = 75% total (but only for 4 blocks), so it will greatly reduce the proc chance of reckoning overall. Lastly, we're talking about RNG, its the "chance" of doing something that would produce "X" result, you might block 3 attacks in a row, or you might not block a single one in 20 secs, its just how it is.

Back on my statement above, we attack 33 times a minute, if we compare it to say dual wield fury warrior tanks that got popular for a few years now, they're actually viable because of the amount of attacks done per minute. Not only using two weapons but also talents that increase attack speed like flurry https://www.wowhead.com/classic/spell=12974/flurry usually those tanks equip a few dps items to further boost their crit chance and its really common to see such a tank with ~10% crit baseline or 15% talented. 15% of 33 attacks per minute = 4.95% chance of procing on a hit, not to mention those very same fury warrior tanks attack with two weapons, so double the chance of procing to nearly 10% per minute. The effect of the said talent is attack speed increase for 3 weapon swings, basically an extra attack, whats reckoning again? an extra attack.. do you see what im trying to say here? To even out the playing field, I would really like to see this sort of mechanic embraced so please, take it into consideration and make protection paladins GREAT!


Summary: make reckoning activate on block, but have the chance to do so between 0.5% to 2.5% ( we have to test it in game to make a proper balance). in my opinion between 1% to 1.5% is adequately enough to see it as viable option but not to the point where its game breaking.

Ravenstone
Posts: 66

Re: Some spell & talent suggestions

Post by Ravenstone » Mon Jan 23, 2023 9:27 pm

Drummbass wrote:
Mon Jan 23, 2023 5:48 pm
its really common to see such a tank with ~10% crit baseline or 15% talented. 15% of 33 attacks per minute = 4.95% chance of procing on a hit, not to mention those very same fury warrior tanks attack with two weapons, so double the chance of procing to nearly 10% per minute.
Firsrly, I'm really not following your math. Flurry activates on crit, so a Fury/Prot tank with 15% crit has 15% chance per hit to proc Flurry, not 4.95% per hit which you initially say. If you want to work out the procs per minute you won't end up with a % either, it'll be a number. Am i misunderstanding what you are saying?

Secondly, I feel like you are comparing apples and oranges, which is to say the Fury/Prot tank is actively specced and trying to increase his DPS at the expense of his defence. Reckoning isn't a tool to increase your DPS, with the proposed changes in this thread, it's a reward for properly increasing your defence. It's meant to help solidify your threat.

Your summary numbers also make no sense to me. 2.5% of the blocks from your ~75% chance to block is what I'm understanding, which sounds like a huge waste of talent points.

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Drummbass
Posts: 12

Re: Some spell & talent suggestions

Post by Drummbass » Mon Jan 23, 2023 10:49 pm

you're actually correct about something here, i misstyped something. That quote you posed was suppose to show the average procs per minute a fury warrior would experience with roughly 15% of crit chance. What i should've write is 15% of 33 attacks per minute = 5 procs per minute. Thats if we account for main hand swings, if we say that same fury warrior uses 1.4 sec or 1.5 sec off hand, then we add another 40(potential attacks per minute), but its not that simple calculations tho, since if you dual wield and you would like to hit a level 62 mob you would need to have 21.4% chance to hit if you want every swing to make it count, in practice however, most warriors run with between 0 and 5% hit chance due to itemization limits, only a few players go for 9% hit chance. So to be even more precise, lets take a 1.8 sec main hand and 1.5 sec off hand in the case of that same fury warrior dual wield tank. He will deliver 33 main hand swings + 40 off hand swings = 73 swings in 1 minute, with 9% hit chance on items that results in 15 hits missing the target and 58 actually landing. 58 attacks per minute x 15% crit chance = 8.7 procs per minute, with rounding it would be close to 9 procs per minute (assuming 9% hit chance).

Thats math tho, in reality it could be more, or less, since you have a % chance of having "X" effect - in this case, a flurry buff. So that same fury dual wield warrior would experience on average 6-12 extra attacks per minute because its RNG, you might miss, or you might dodge,parry and ect.(since the buff lasts for 3 weapon swings and it hastes them 30%). that doesnt include windfury totem, i didnt wanted to include that ballgame because my example would've been very confusing.

As to the comparison of apples to oranges, it was meant to compare protection paladin to a fury dual wield tank i.e. (prot pala tank to a warrior tank) It might look confusing at glance but its just an example of how warriors operate to increase their threat.

Kairion
Posts: 313

Re: Some spell & talent suggestions

Post by Kairion » Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:50 am

The math in itself to me makes sort of sense, but i think the approach of comparing and aligning these two spells does not serve the discussion. If we make each spell of paladin and warrior interchangeable, we end up with two flavors of warriors instead of two classes

1. Reckoning is more valuable the more enemies you bind, so by definition it should be worse in a single target encounter (and conversely better in AoE Scenarios) than flurry.
2. Reckoning is completely useless if the paladin is not getting hit
3. Mathematically giving it a procchance of just a few percent on block does work, but it falls in the same trap as retail wow with their 12.74% extradamage on skill X effects. It is completely unfitting flavorwise for a RPG

If you tie it to Paladins ~10-12% parry chance instead you get a base 3.6 reckoning procs per minute under your circumstances. So a little weaker, but much more on brand for a RPG. And even with paly being mainly a block focused class, tying everything to block makes the class artificially onedimensional. It would allow to selectively seek out parry gear if one is so inclined and would still work with two handed weapons. Something shifting Reckoning to block would outright kill.

and to briefly touch on the point that a reckoning change would regenerate too much mana in AoE Situations:
*Laughs in Shield Specialisation & Fiery Plate gauntlets*
In all seriousnes, with some fire proc gear its possible to tank both single target as well as AoE as protection paladin without ever going OOM. The only aspect a usable reckoning actually changes is a lower reliance on gimmick gear and single target threat.
Both in my oppinion great improvements to the class.

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Drummbass
Posts: 12

Re: Some spell & talent suggestions

Post by Drummbass » Tue Jan 24, 2023 6:04 pm

Kairion, hello again,

It seems that we both agree on a problem and offer a different ideas/suggestions on how to "bandage fix" set problem, except the idea behind it isn't that far away. Regardless on activation of reckoning by blocking or parring the end result can be identical if the proc chance is set accordingly. The statement i cant agree easily however, is this one
Kairion wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:50 am
The math in itself to me makes sort of sense, but i think the approach of comparing and aligning these two spells does not serve the discussion. If we make each spell of paladin and warrior interchangeable, we end up with two flavors of warriors instead of two classes
Your suggestion is tying reckoning to parry, mine was same thing but tying it to block chance. Regardless of the outcome, the end result both would substantially increase the more attacks per minute our paladin receives, on the contrary, flurry proc chance is static regardless of enemies "bonded", since it relies on doing a melee critical hit. The method of activation is different. Which is actually very interesting since you do write that same concern i just expressed in points "1" and "2" (i try not to quote too much because im trying to be positive, i dont intend to bash anyone)
Kairion wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:50 am
And even with paly being mainly a block focused class, tying everything to block makes the class artificially onedimensional. It would allow to selectively seek out parry gear if one is so inclined and would still work with two handed weapons. Something shifting Reckoning to block would outright kill.
Its this statement here that i disagree with (especially the "onedimentional" word). Paladins are spread waay to much in my opinion, since if you truly look for a "proper" itemization, you would focus firstly on spell damage to increase the effectiveness of every spell on your arsenal that provides threat, then focus on defense to avoid getting crit(which also buffs block chance and parry) and hoard as much HP as possible. To my knowledge (dont quote me here as i might be wrong) there isnt gear regularly available that has all the stats a prot paladin would want like HP,Defense and spell damage. You might find a couple pieces here and there, but totally not "easily obtainable", so in the most parts every individual piece equiped would be mainly focused on hp,defense or spell damage,hp or any other combination that you can get your hands on and then collectively increasing the totals. its like mixing a pancakes, too much flour and it gets too dense, too much milk and it gets too liquidy. to make a proper pancakes you need a fine balance between the two (or 3 in the paladin tank example).
In my example, tying reckoning to block chance makes the class a little bit easier to understand and get used to, thats also another subject to take into account - players playing the class. When you have multiple different spells/effects activating on block chance you can really easily understand the playstyle.
On the flip side of having reckoning on parry, things here get more "spicy", as to you would naturally want to test how good of a talent that is and try several different combinations/variations of it. The balancing of defense,hp and spell damage gets a bit harder. Also another point to state here, is that parring an attack has interesting effect on it, firstly you completely ignore all damage and secondly it hastes your next auto attack by 40%. that works just like flurry (well, maybe like baby flurry since its 40% for just 1 attack), oh did somebody in this thread wrote something about warriors... and paladins.. getting interchangeably.. and something ..
Kairion wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:50 am
If we make each spell of paladin and warrior interchangeable, we end up with two flavors of warriors instead of two classes


Flurry effect provides 30% weapon haste for 3 swings, parrying an attack ignores damage and also provides 40% weapon haste but for 1 swing only. This is basically straight apples to apples since we compare paladin tank to a warrior tank. On the flip side, paladins get the edge in this particular example since they get rewarded for having a proper avoidance gear, mitigating damage and also increasing threat at same time since reckoning rewards an extra attack.

Listen, i do not bash players here, i do not point fingers nor im trying to pick a fight, i dont like to argue with anyone, im trying to provide a constructive criticism here. In matter of fact i started this post with positive mind and flat out stating procing reckoning on block or parry can work exactly the same way just have to tweak the proc chance accordingly, lets see what "accordingly" means.
If we have 12% parry chance from gear/talents as you stated Kairion, then going back at my example of block chance up above, we assume a mob with 2 secs of attack speed. OK, so we're getting hit 30 times a minute, with 12% chance on parry that means the proc chance of reckoning would be 3.6 just as you've stated which could get rounded to 4. If we tank let say 5 mobs, then we're looking at 5 times the proc chance or close to 18 procs per minute. We can safely expect between 14 to 22 procs per minute in this scenario. That basically relates to close to 50/50, meaning we do 33 attacks per minute but gets 18 extra attacks as result of reckoning, thats 51 attacks in total for that minute. I dont know man, 50 attacks per minute as being tank seems too high for my taste, that alone would defer me from playing vengeance tank since the sheer amount of attacks done per minute would easily outweigh the extra benefits in my opinion. That however, is assuming we proc reckoning on parry (100%). This is one of the core reasons i suggested it activating on block, since paladins have high amount of block chance, but only for a few hits, then its really low chance of occuring, it sorta balances itself, while the parry method is tricky.
So in this case, we need to find whats a good amount of procs per minute when tanking multiple mobs. I honestly believe, no more than 8 to 9 procs per minute should be encountered regardless of the enemies "binded" as anything more would deter players from ever trying to tank as vengeance (ret) for example. In simple mathematics, that relates to 30%-40%. If reckoning procs only 30% chance on a successful parry, then we eliminate 2/3 of the total procs per minute we just calculated above, or in other words, 1/3 of 18= to the magic number 6. Meaning, if reckoning procs 30% whenever we parry and we're tanking 5 mobs with 2 secs of attack speed for a minute, we would activate reckoning exactly 6 times. Here's a problem however, since as i've mentioned before, parring an attack also hastes your next weapon swing by 40% ( that relates to 40% of 18 = 7 extra attacks due to parry mechanic). So, we're still looking at 7+6=13 extra attacks in the minute duration of the example.

In reality however, getting extra 6 (on average 3 to 9 due to RNG mechanic) attacks per minute when tanking the said 5 mobs (talking about reckoning procs) might be a bit too much, so in terms of balancing it, roughly 15% to 20% chance on activating reckoning on a successful parry should be adequate. Im open to discussions here and i would really like your thoughts on the matter @Kairion, after that wall of text i've just posted, do you agree with the idea of having said 15% to 20% chance on activating reckoning on successful parry resonates with your initial idea? All i did is explain it in detail and provide a little math to figure out whats appropriate proc chance for that to work, but not to be flat out broken. It is your idea after all, i hope i didnt offended you by any way, my thoughts flow in all directions whenever im writing them down so it seems most people have it hard time to track it, which I apologize for. Looking forward your reply :)

Kairion
Posts: 313

Re: Some spell & talent suggestions

Post by Kairion » Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:36 pm

"If I had more time, I would have written a shorter letter."
You really make it hard for me to keep engaged in that discussion
Drummbass wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 6:04 pm
Kairion wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:50 am
And even with paly being mainly a block focused class, tying everything to block makes the class artificially onedimensional. It would allow to selectively seek out parry gear if one is so inclined and would still work with two handed weapons. Something shifting Reckoning to block would outright kill.
Its this statement here that i disagree with (especially the "onedimentional" word). Paladins are spread waay to much in my opinion, since if you truly look for a "proper" itemization, you would focus firstly on spell damage to increase the effectiveness of every spell on your arsenal that provides threat, then focus on defense to avoid getting crit(which also buffs block chance and parry) and hoard as much HP as possible. To my knowledge (dont quote me here as i might be wrong) there isnt gear regularly available that has all the stats a prot paladin would want like HP,Defense and spell damage. You might find a couple pieces here and there, but totally not "easily obtainable", so in the most parts every individual piece equiped would be mainly focused on hp,defense or spell damage,hp or any other combination that you can get your hands on and then collectively increasing the totals. its like mixing a pancakes, too much flour and it gets too dense, too much milk and it gets too liquidy. to make a proper pancakes you need a fine balance between the two (or 3 in the paladin tank example).
In my example, tying reckoning to block chance makes the class a little bit easier to understand and get used to, thats also another subject to take into account - players playing the class. When you have multiple different spells/effects activating on block chance you can really easily understand the playstyle.
On the flip side of having reckoning on parry, things here get more "spicy", as to you would naturally want to test how good of a talent that is and try several different combinations/variations of it. The balancing of defense,hp and spell damage gets a bit harder. Also another point to state here, is that parring an attack has interesting effect on it, firstly you completely ignore all damage and secondly it hastes your next auto attack by 40%. that works just like flurry (well, maybe like baby flurry since its 40% for just 1 attack), oh did somebody in this thread wrote something about warriors... and paladins.. getting interchangeably.. and something ..
There is indeed a lack of paladin gear, but if you stack defense for block purposes or parry purposes makes no difference. If anyone fails to grasp the concept that there are other defensive stats than block that can be useful at a class, i think i'm at a loss.
That the parry haste effect is happening regardless of any interacion with Reckoning, You are using a strawman argument here. Its like saying warrior uses autoattacks, we shouldnt make paladins use autoattacks. Parry is a core game mechanic paladin does already has access to. and arguably doesn't synergize all too badly with as is.
Drummbass wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 6:04 pm

Listen, i do not bash players here, i do not point fingers nor im trying to pick a fight, i dont like to argue with anyone, im trying to provide a constructive criticism here. In matter of fact i started this post with positive mind and flat out stating procing reckoning on block or parry can work exactly the same way just have to tweak the proc chance accordingly, lets see what "accordingly" means.
If we have 12% parry chance from gear/talents as you stated Kairion, then going back at my example of block chance up above, we assume a mob with 2 secs of attack speed. OK, so we're getting hit 30 times a minute, with 12% chance on parry that means the proc chance of reckoning would be 3.6 just as you've stated which could get rounded to 4. If we tank let say 5 mobs, then we're looking at 5 times the proc chance or close to 18 procs per minute. We can safely expect between 14 to 22 procs per minute in this scenario. That basically relates to close to 50/50, meaning we do 33 attacks per minute but gets 18 extra attacks as result of reckoning, thats 51 attacks in total for that minute. I dont know man, 50 attacks per minute as being tank seems too high for my taste, that alone would defer me from playing vengeance tank since the sheer amount of attacks done per minute would easily outweigh the extra benefits in my opinion. That however, is assuming we proc reckoning on parry (100%). This is one of the core reasons i suggested it activating on block, since paladins have high amount of block chance, but only for a few hits, then its really low chance of occuring, it sorta balances itself, while the parry method is tricky.

So in this case, we need to find whats a good amount of procs per minute when tanking multiple mobs. I honestly believe, no more than 8 to 9 procs per minute should be encountered regardless of the enemies "binded" as anything more would deter players from ever trying to tank as vengeance (ret) for example. In simple mathematics, that relates to 30%-40%. If reckoning procs only 30% chance on a successful parry, then we eliminate 2/3 of the total procs per minute we just calculated above, or in other words, 1/3 of 18= to the magic number 6. Meaning, if reckoning procs 30% whenever we parry and we're tanking 5 mobs with 2 secs of attack speed for a minute, we would activate reckoning exactly 6 times. Here's a problem however, since as i've mentioned before, parring an attack also hastes your next weapon swing by 40% ( that relates to 40% of 18 = 7 extra attacks due to parry mechanic). So, we're still looking at 7+6=13 extra attacks in the minute duration of the example.

In reality however, getting extra 6 (on average 3 to 9 due to RNG mechanic) attacks per minute when tanking the said 5 mobs (talking about reckoning procs) might be a bit too much, so in terms of balancing it, roughly 15% to 20% chance on activating reckoning on a successful parry should be adequate. Im open to discussions here and i would really like your thoughts on the matter @Kairion, after that wall of text i've just posted, do you agree with the idea of having said 15% to 20% chance on activating reckoning on successful parry resonates with your initial idea? All i did is explain it in detail and provide a little math to figure out whats appropriate proc chance for that to work, but not to be flat out broken. It is your idea after all, i hope i didnt offended you by any way, my thoughts flow in all directions whenever im writing them down so it seems most people have it hard time to track it, which I apologize for. Looking forward your reply :)
Have you ever even considered the numbers you propose? Right now Reckoning is a 100% chance on being crit. Without any defense gear, that occurs roughly 5% if the time on being struck. In what world would a spell that is happening in 20% of all parries (about 12%) - so 2.4% in total be any better.
Heck even for the Blockchance example you made, with perfect uptime on Holy Shield and Redoubt, you would look at a ~1.5-2% chance to proc a single extra swing on being hit.

The whole point of discussion is Reckoning sucks, and yet you constantly provide suggestions to make it suck even harder.
Making it scale with Parry instead of being crit gives you some incentive to stack defensive, wich the Prot Tree should encourage you, it scales positively with gear and its very roughly doubling the powerlevel of a skill that is currently considered trash
Last edited by Kairion on Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ravenstone
Posts: 66

Re: Some spell & talent suggestions

Post by Ravenstone » Tue Jan 24, 2023 11:08 pm

I don't understand why it is you are trying to balance Reckoning by attempting to make it proc an equal number of times as Flurry in completely and fundamentally different scenarios. Your entire premise of balancing the talent seems to be based on the Paladin tanking 5 mobs every time, whilst Flurry will only ever be procced against one. This is the problem and why I said you are comparing apples and oranges. As Kairion has said, your version of the talent is far worse than what it is now.

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