World Buffs & Cross-faction Stacking Rules

[Ruthus]

No good reason for these to be paired.

[Gantulga]

Leave the world buffs alone because they help guilds re-clear farm content faster and cheaper. World buffs do not affect progression in any meaningful way.

Nerf fury warrior's rage generation and fix their offhand hit bug so that you can stop beating around the bush with buffs to other classes.

Also consider buffing up raid boss HP since you've introduced so many buffs to various classes. Even with default 1.12, there was already enough power creep to warrant content buffs. The server with the healthiest raiding scene I played on, had basically doubled, tripled or quadrupled the HP values of bosses.

Rebalancing world buffs is another option. Make them benefit all archetypes equally and give alliance a Warchief's blessing of sorts.

[Doonis]

"This change will hit melee physical DPS classes more due to their stat scaling being much more powerful compared to other classes, reducing the power discrepancy between the best and the worst DPS specializations, allowing more variety in the roster."

this is wrong. If you want to raid as a moonkin, ele shaman, ret paladin, PLEASE READ THIS>

Removing world buffs makes raids harder, harder raids force the raid to stack good specs to kill the bosses. With world buffs, the dps is already high so the raid can bring their friends with "meme" (weak) specs and still be able to clear the raid without problems.

This. 100% This.

This change is completely negative for all raid group in ant context of the raiding scene. Progression raids will take a massive hit, making clearing new content and getting gear upgrade harder for everyone. End-game raids will take considerably longer, dissuading players from sticking with the server once this content due to faster burnout. And, as many people have mentioned, raiding guilds will NOT be incentivized to invite more shamans, because 4 warriors getting a windfury totem is still less net damage gained than another warrior sitting is that same raid spot.

Unless this change also comes with massive decreases in boss armor/health, Naxx and progression content will become unbearable for current and upcoming raiding guilds, and even then, non-Warrior classes will be LESS likely to be invited for challenging content, not more likely.

[Seacrab]

You really should have asked your guilds in higher raids this question first before asking this question to the general server because over 90% of these votes will be from people that haven't stepped foot in Naxx.

I am all for totems and pally blessings stacking but at the removal of world buffs? No way.

As a Naxx raiding shaman on this server, I have enjoyed not having to drop totems every 30 yards we move. Why waste multiple gcds and mana when I could be healing anyways and save a melee dps from dying? Especially in Naxx when one gcd can mean life or death.

This change will hit melee physical DPS classes more due to their stat scaling being much more powerful compared to other classes, reducing the power discrepancy between the best and the worst DPS specializations, and allowing more variety in the roster.

No it won't. Casters with world buffs can already struggle to keep up with an equal geared fury dps warrior without world buffs. Removing world buffs hurts EVERYONE. While having totems+blessing will help only a handful, as the most used totems only buff melee dps. You need to add caster buff totems to help with this, otherwise you are going to start to see raids with LESS variety. Why bring more than one lock after this change? All you need is one for reck to debuff the boss for all the melee that get wf too now.

Oh, and we won't even use wf in Naxx anyways because the undead sharpening stones from the AD vendor is a better, more consistent dps increase.

Allows Restoration Shaman's last cornerstone talent Mana Tide Totem to be viable again due to the totem not removing Blessing of Wisdom and overall netting less mana overall because you lose the blessing's constant mana regeneration.

Us resto shamans won't take mana tide anyways because now the meta is to put 30 almost useless points into our melee tree for bloodlust. If you want resto shamans to use mana tide, get bloodlust out of our melee talent tree too.

The subscene of raiding that is dedicated to speed-running raids will get slower due to the overall power decrease.

It's not even speed running. Naxx is already a long slog to get through with so many bosses. We use world buffs so we can have Naxx finish in one raiding day and a little bit quicker because we have lives outside of the game. More time in Naxx = more time needed to farm consumes = more gold used = not fun. Yes the process of gaining all the world buffs every raid isn't fun, but I rather take an hour doing that than having to do Naxx in two raid nights again.

TLDR Please find some other way to balance the power creep of totems+blessing stack without removing world buffs. Talk to your raiders.

Also I never got why wf removed kings. One is a weapon buff while the other is a stat buff. Why was this even a thing in the first place? At least have your buff removing make sense.

Or make it that both totem+blessing buff can be up at the same time, but only the more powerful buff is active. It has always been so annoying that mana spring, which is way less mp5 than wisdom, out right removes wisdom. Especially for the whole group. We can drink an elixir of sages ourselves but it still doesn't stack with int+spirit buffs. The stronger buffs are the active ones. Make it work like that if you can't make totems+blessings stack.

[Feanoro]

Remove world buffs only if your intent is for raids to be all warriors.

[Erbrottor]

Keep Wbuffs and make the shaman and pala buffs stack

[Elewent]

I hope whoever is in charge keeps in mind that making changes when the poll is somewhat close will result in negative effects on the community. Having no changes will result in minor annoyance to people that voted yes, but those that voted no may quit the game.

[Ugoboom]

Wbuffs for prog? Ofc everyone should be against this. it is impossible for any new content thrown at us to be balanced around both wbuff and nonwbuff prog. Almost every 1.12 boss was vulnerable to be cheesed with wbuffs, with maybe cthun and 4horsemen as the only ones we actualy had to learn to do correctly. The rest? cheated prog essentially.

Wbuffs for farmed content? Yes yes yes. After doing BWL AQ40 and Naxx 50 times each, i am not interested in staying in there a second longer than I need to. If you remove wbuffs for farmed content, we will see the burnout of long time players increase substantially as now 15 hours of their week is demanded again instead of half of that. Then again, the fact that we're having to run these raids so much is due to the abysmal droprate of vanilla raids, and doubling the droprate of items would relieve burnout so so much. This absolute pain of farming the same content for months and months if not years needs to be addressed.

anyways... i have no idea the obsession you guys have over coflating wbuffs and making shamans not complete garbage. We've seen alliance meta is the stronger one and use might/kings while disallowing totems, so letting this stack just buffs the raid-contributing DPS of shamans to make them actually desired. You do not need to remove wbuffs, to make shamans not bad. Do not conflate these two. We also all remember that the reason they didn't stack was a nostalrius hack-fix, not because this was some enlightened balancing decision. Fix this bug no matter what happens to wbuffs.

[Temperance]

Wbuffs for prog? Ofc everyone should be against this. it is impossible for any new content thrown at us to be balanced around both wbuff and nonwbuff prog. Almost every 1.12 boss was vulnerable to be cheesed with wbuffs, with maybe cthun and 4horsemen as the only ones we actualy had to learn to do correctly. The rest? cheated prog essentially.

Wbuffs for farmed content? Yes yes yes. After doing BWL AQ40 and Naxx 50 times each, i am not interested in staying in there a second longer than I need to. If you remove wbuffs for farmed content, we will see the burnout of long time players increase substantially as now 15 hours of their week is demanded again instead of half of that. Then again, the fact that we're having to run these raids so much is due to the abysmal droprate of vanilla raids, and doubling the droprate of items would relieve burnout so so much. This absolute pain of farming the same content for months and months if not years needs to be addressed.

Completely agree about burnout. It's difficult enough already to keep players around long term.

[Kedrek]

Leave world buffs alone, and allow paladin+shaman buffs to stack. World buffs aren't toxic, they're just another battleground for the same toxic discourse that occurs in every online space. The theoretical "Raid leader who pressures/berates their team into getting world buffs every week" is still going to do that for consumes, for gear checks, for spec checks, etc. Because the issue is, and always will be, the people involved and not the mechanics of the game.

Some people don't have enough time to hit every item on a preparedness checklist, but that's going to happen no matter what. There will be some people with exactly two hours of play time per week who will log on and expect that time to be spent getting carried in aq40 or naxx, and it looks like many of those people are voting in this poll. For some other people, doing every step of that prep work is part of the enjoyment of the content, at least in the satisfaction and security you gain from the knowledge you are going into the raid with every tool you can fit into your belt. When you have both of these groups present in a raid the overprepared can work to cover for the underprepared (or ret paladins) - removing world buffs will absolutely make raid teams less willing to accept so-called meme specs, because they can't afford to, because they can't compensate for the discrepancy any longer.

I know it's tough to design balanced content around the possibility of such a huge power swing, but is it really such a sin to have content be cleared quickly by the most dedicated/people with the most time on their hands? Just aim to make the next raid 15% harder than naxx, and tweak it accordingly. I know that may seem overly reductive, but seriously - if you want a big tanky boi in scarlet citadel, copy patchwerk, increase his stats by 15%, and slap it in there. The players are going to have to extensively beta test every encounter anyway for tweaks, just like what happened with black morass.

[Vikare]

Removing world buffs is correct, but understand that they fill an important role for guilds that actually clear raids. Molten Core, BWL, AQ40, Naxx. These four instances have a LOT of trash mobs, especially MC and Naxx. BWL has an intense number of packs between Broodlord and the drakes. AQ40 is actually quite well designed for trash until post-Twins, where there's 16 trash packs in a row til the final two bosses. Naxx has ungodly levels of trash like MC does, except it's tier 3 trash, not tier 1.

World buffs help shorten raid time significantly when a guild has it on farm and doesn't want to spend 6 hours in the same instance. Why not trim some of the trash bloat in these raids to compensate for that? Surely, you don't have 20 trash packs in a row between bosses in Scarlet Citadel? One fewer pack here and there in each raid is a world of difference. I can't imagine a universe where someone would be against reducing some of the trash packs that people try their absolute hardest to skip and avoid.

[Angulardrift]

the Worldbuff meta takes yet another L

Rip Bozo you will not be missed

[Kingcrash]

If both shaman and paladins can stack there buffs together, then removal of world buffs makes sense to not increase power to high, but with that said this change needs to have more then what is presented. Simply just turning a on switch for buffs to stack and turning off world buffs isn't going to help. Allowing all classes being able to play and be together is a more worthwhile investment, then simply going "if your playing a paladin, we can't have you use this, or a shaman, we can't have you useing this"

Now addressing the world buff issues, as Torta has quoted, "+18% Spell Crit, +10% Melee Crit, 340 Attack Power, +10 Mana every 5 seconds, +15 Flat, and 15% increase to All Stats, +300 Health equal to 30 Stamina, +15% Melee Attack Speed and +10% Movement Speed." Now this is an increase in a lot of stats, and as stated melee get the biggest boost, now if we want to remove these, but allow paladin and shaman buffs to stack I propose the following, ALL buffs, be it aura's, totems, blessings, and what not need to become raid wide, not group wide. This allows more people to bring the class, not the player, since 1 shaman can provide the entire raid with buffs, instead of just the group they belong to. Paladins have it easy with a Greater Blessing spell allowing them to buff the entire raid one type of class already, making it so you only really need 3 Paladins and they can cover the entire raid in every blessing they wanted for a whole raid. shamans need to get this same kind of treatment, or people who wish to min/max will need to have 8 shamans, just so every group can have 1 shaman for totems.

With this now said lets go back to the world buffs, lets look at how it is right now, you can just give some groups shaman totems, and everyone else just gets paladins buffs, this already min/maxes the world buff stats, but with having everything be raid wide, it makes it easier to make sure the entire raid gets every buff the group is providing first "Which world buffs already do if you're trying to get them"

+18% Spell Crit is very hard to try and replace for casters with how classic is currently done, and even with Turtle rework of classes, right now if we go off making everything raid wide, we only have Moonkin to provide a 3% spell crit to the raid, this leaves 15% crit missing. going off future expansions in Wotlk the only spell crit gain is 5% which is provided by an elemental shaman and/or a moonkin. If we remove world buffs, buff moonkin aura to provide 5%, not 3%, and maybe add elemental shaman buff, but not needed since 40-man is classic raiding, not 25. Also Warlocks and mages provide debuffs to make the target take more shadow, arcane threw curse of shadow by 10%, and mages winter's chill providing an extra 10% crit but only with frost. I would make the change and make it so Warlocks curse if used, will be like increase all magical dmg takin by 5% and not just only shadow/arcane. In addition, the winter's chill should provide everyone with 5% increased spell crit on the target, not just only frost spells. With these changes we can't reach the lost 18% crit, but having a moonking for 5% + Curse of shadow (elements) 5% more dmg, & winter's chill 5% crit on target, the raid can have 10% more spell crit and 5% more dmg, which may make up for the lost +18% crit.

+10% Melee Crit is hard to obtain threw buffs as well, but should be easier to obtain then spell crit since it not as high. At the moment only Feral druids provide crit, which is 3%, if we remove world buffs, this buff should be increased to 5% to make up for the removal of the buff, in addition even in Wotlk only Elemental shaman, Ret Paladin, and Assassination rogue can provide an extra 3% crit chance to the target to make everyone crit more, these are not in Turtle/Classic so thats up to the class balance team to decide if needing to add that into class viability is needed to make up for the world buff, but with making leader of the pack 5% crit this will help a little. I know with both people had +13% crit, but with 5% its only losing 7% and not 10%.

+340 Attack power. This one should be an easy fix, let Paladin blessing and Warrior shout (Which should be raid wide not group) and marksmen hunter trueshot (which should be raid wide) stack. Paladin blessing with improved gives +222 attackpower, Warriors shout if improved is +290 attackpower, and Marksmen Hunter Trueshot is +100. This gives a grand totle of 612 attackpower, now with world buffs using a hunter + Warrior you could get +730, but if we remove the world buff, but allow us to stack paladins blessing and we only lose 118 attack power, which should be fine.

+10 MP5, this is easily fixed by just letting the wisdom buff stack with shaman mana totem.

+15 flat isnt that big of a deal but whats makes this more potent is the next world buff...

+15% to all stats. This world buff is the biggest reason most people get there power. everyone loves stats, and everyone loves paladins since Kings just give you an extra 10% ontop of this, which is already a thing even right now since kings dosn't interfear with any shaman totem. even up to Wotlk, kings still holds the crown as the only buff to provide a increase to raw stats. If you want to remove this world buff, the only viable way i see it being a fix is to buff Kings to provied +15% stats, or maybe even +20% if needed, to make up for this lose (Don't want to imply to much since stacking other stat increase threw totems, flasks, and other means could still get out of hand)

+300 (+30 Stam) is an easy fix, either buff the only stam buff in the game from priests by 30 and its fixed, or even better yet, add a way to increase it further by adding in a cool class quest at level cap to find something to make it more powerful, so a priest who went threw the trouble can provide a stam boost equal to a world buff.

+15% Melee attack speed. Going back to Wotlk buffs, only a Enhancment Shaman or Frost DK can provide these, and it gives a HUGE +20% melee speed, which is even more then what this is providing! now im not saying just slap these in and call it a day, but I think looking at the enhancments taking the talent "Improved Weapon Totems" should make either the shaman themselves a walking +10% melee speed, or apply this buff to the exsisting windfury totem (which should be raid wide) giving enhancment shamans a good place to help increase melee power in classic raids. Yes melee will lose 5% melee haste, but 10% + windfury + paladins blessings, its ganna add up.

+10% Movement Speed now this is a weird one for sure, and honestly isn't needed? but if you wanna make an arguement for it Restro Druid, Beastmaster & Survival Hunter, and All rogues at the moment (correct me if im wrong) provide no extra buffs to the raid by being the spec they are. You could add in something to give them an increase in running speed by being near them, a paladin aura of sorts. Thinking about it logicly maybe a Survival hunter would make sense, since the play style of this hunter is to get all up in melee and fight with your pet instead of sending them in alone, giving a speed boost to yourself and your pet would be in theme for a survival hunter at lest, but this is a class balance thing, and i was trying to think of something to provide a movement speed increase, while still making sense.

This is my take on what may need to change or happen to remove world buffs, and to make more classes viable, and ease of access in raids better, because right now, in classic its optimize the best 5-man team, then go from there. By making a lot of Aura's and totems raid wide, and not group, this helps bring more of some other classes, and lets some other shine, for example, the new Arcane mage talent turtle put in with Brilliance Aura being raid wide would be amazing! and would give a cool spot for a mage to play arcane in a raid, instead of being a mana battery for just a few classes in the group.

On a side not since I mentioned it in my section about the priest, Turtle does an amazing job adding new content to the game, and I think it would be an amazing addition that instead of simeply tweaking these numbers as I've said before, to simply buff all the stats of these buffs, but only threw a class quest you do or a raid you need to beat to get a better, stronger version of the spell, making it so classes willing to go the extra mile can provide the raid with these stronger buffs, almost as if they themselves are world buffs. If NPC in the world can provide these powerful, but limited time buffs to us in the game already, why can't we as battle harden adventures also do this, but threw training and determination, which would be cool and stay in theme with what Turtle is trying to provide in this Classic+ version they are making.

Once again I'm not a class designer, or a balance expert, and I may of also missed or left out some things that I missed in my analogy I provided. But this is to help provide an idea, or get some thoughts going to help improve the game for everyone, and not step on anyone's toes. Side note: Make basic Paladin blessings last 10min and Greater 30min if you allow shaman + paladin buff stacking, and make Shaman totems last 10min baseline. Could also add a class quest at lv30 for both to make it so you improve your mastery of these to increase the time they last, to make it more special and well earned to the paladin/shaman who went out of there way to make it so there blessing/totem buff last longer.

[Tawneyturtle]

Why not simply nerf world buffs and have them be a permanent effect on your character at lvl 60 when they obtain them for the first time? Clearly the endgoal of this nerf is to either A. Make raiding harder. or B. Make raiding more accessible. But I don't see how the goal would be to make it harder when there is a compensation offer with Pala blessings working with Shaman totems. Make Songflower a permanent 2% crit instead of a temporary 5% crit and 15 stats. Do similar changes to Dragonslayer/Zandalari/DM etc. If you want to remove a chore from players, do that, but if you're just trying to take power away from players, it's not going to be fun. People like world buffs because they make crits and big numbers happen, people don't want to lose big numbers.

[Fleurious]

Don't have an issue with world buffs getting nerfed but I'd hate to give up social aspect of getting the gang together and getting them. How about something like reducing them to 25% of their strength and letting them persist through death.

[Lorencor]

I see a lot of comments here saying that change will make clear content for some raids less faster.

I think these people didn't understand the turtle wow spirit until today.

[Ugoboom]

I see a lot of comments here saying that change will make clear content for some raids less faster.

I think these people didn't understand the turtle wow spirit until today.

ah yes, the turtle wow spirit of doing 10 hour naxxes
no thank you

but yeah vanilla raid content takes just way too long. blizz put it in as is just as a "ok guys chew on this while we spend time developing" not as something that was supposed to be enjoyable at this length. serious considerations must be made on the length of vanilla raiding to make the perfect old wow game.

[Badaxe69]

How about adding soulbound world buff potions into vendors lists with exalted rep?
This
*gives more value to rep
*different types of potions will have different price
*saves a lot of time for collecting w-buffs
*creates gold dump
*allows to use potions when you need it
*you always can run into the buff sources to get the w-buff if you need it in old-fashioned way.

[Velite]

I see alot of posts here judging people for not having the qualified experience raiding here to decide how world buffs are handled. As someone who does have the qualified experience, although that should not matter from a game design perspective, I am going to give my input on not just the proposed change but how this post is being handled.

Let me first start off with clarifying why this Really needs to be done. For those of you who've been playing the past couple of months you have noticed that the class changes, for the most part, was a bit... underwhelming. The raiding scene really hasn't changed much, and that is for good reason. The team working on the changes spent much time brainstorming possible additions to the game, and much of what was come up with had to be axed because they realized that it would cause the "performance ceiling" of raids to increase.

Now I need to stress this point clearly so that people can understand the intent of the devs. The developers see that not every spec is good in raids, and they want to make more of them welcome in raids, and to do that, you have to make them useful, either in terms of support or damage. Going the rout of support or some mix of support and damage will avoid all specs just being top of the damage meter, however, there is an established Performance Ceiling that the devs do not want to increase. Adding support on top of world buffs would pass the ceiling, and so support would not be added to these specs, and since we mentioned we don't really want to make everyone do fury warrior/rogue dps (in other words a spec primarily or only useful for the huge damage output), nothing was done.

It is a shortcoming that the devs have not stressed this motivation further. They have done it insofar as "allowing paladin blessings and shaman totems to stack", which is one of the many situations that world buffs prevents. In short, world buffs need to be removed for classes to be improved on the whole. That is why they are doing this. And they should make this more clear in the post.

In summary, the devs want to improve classes in meaningful ways, but world buffs has put an obstacle to this, and so the community must decide whether they want classes to stay in relatively the same place, or improve.

[Dasequinox]

This change would do much more harm to the raiding scene than good. I appreciate that you have many people requesting that pally and shaman buffs stack, but it is not worth it in exchange for world buffs. If you go through with this change, I foresee a massive upset with your more serious raiding population, both those who are currently raiding and those who plan on raiding when they hit 60.

I am personally not opposed to blessings and totems stacking alongside world buffs simultaneously. Regardless of the balance, which I understand is your concern, I think it would be fun, which is why I play the game at the end of the day - to have fun.

World Buffs and blessing/totem stacking are just not the same, and I really see the blessing/totem stack only encouraging more melee dps heavy raid comp, really meaning more warriors and less of everything else. This change would negatively impact class diversity at the endgame level of play.

At the end of the day, I want the server to do well, and my intention with posting is to provide the prospective of someone invested in the health of the server, and someone who wants to keep logging on and enjoying what it has to offer.

[Velite]

It also needs to be understood that the devs have to communicate this, not as a punishment, but a redistribution of power.

The TTC (Time to Clear) for a raid should be about the same with or without buffs. Instead of your speed being buff driven it is composition driven by all the bad specs which now contribute more meaningfully to a group. Like Feral and Balance druids having 5% crit auras instead of 3%, or elemental shamans having some utility, or arms being raid viable due to a debuff, or assassination having an impactful capstone, etc.

The community is reading this as a nerf or punishment and that is not the dev intent.

A raid if done well should not exceed 2 to 3 hours.

[Balake]

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4237

I have proposed a long list of gradual changes that can be done against world buffs and for hybrid class utility here.
Velite has said all the right points, a nerf to player power will feel horrible without the right compensation. The developers should communicate if what he says is really their plan of action, because from what they've said (not much) it certainly didn't look like it.

[Ruthus]

Combining the two issues into one vote seriously feels like they're treating removing wbuffs like a bitter medicine and trying to use the buff stacks as a sweetener.

[Gugus]

World buffs is worst thing in Classic WOW .
Even in Season of Mastery Blizzard removed them.

[Ruthus]

The worst thing in Classic WoW is the goldsink to respec talents, Season of Mastery sucked

[Kasteia]

Literally anyone crying about world buffs being removed are probably the Naxx raiders that are clearing Naxx fine without them but they want to speed run it so badly that they turn the raiding atmosphere toxic and unfriendly.

Down with the world buffs

[Feanoro]

Literally anyone defending this has probably not even cleared MC and has no idea how long AQ40 and Naxx take even with buffs. They also haven't the faintest clue that without buffs to the other classes, this will absolutely CEMENT the warrior meta.

If buffs to other classes were also announced, no one would be protesting in the slightest. That's not the case though, this is flat out nerfing everyone. If you're not a warrior, healadin, healing priest, or resto shaman, you won't have a justifiable spot with these changes, unless you enjoy seven hour slog fest raids.

[Tendies]

.....

[Darkraggs]

WARNING my post is going full tilt since this poll makes me salty and could negatively impact the actual raid teams.

Please try not to get offended by my post, I do not mean to offend anyone, just venting my frustration and honest opinion with the poll as both a Shadow Priest main and a guild leader.

My first hot take: WORLD BUFFS HELP CUSHION DEALING WITH THE UNFIXED RANDOM BUGS THAT MAKE PEOPLE RANDOMLY CRASH IN RAIDS ON THIS SERVER.

and now, WELCOME TO VANILLA:

If people didn’t want world buffs, they wouldn’t play on a Vanilla WoW server. I’m a shadow priest main, so I’m objectively the spec that benefits the least from world buffs and understand that our damage scaling compared to other classes with world buffs is way worse, but I still go out and collect the basics and don’t try to get everyone else nerfed to bridge that gap, nor do I want better crit scaling for my spec because of how it would shift our itemization and knowing the PVPers would cry until it got nerfed.

Removing World Buffs also impacts the Hardcore community since some of them will rush over to their capitals to collect world buffs for extra survivability or visit the Dark Moon Fair in Elwynn or Mulgore.

I’m not one of them, but there are people that actually enjoy collecting all of their performances enhancers and stacking them in video games to see how much that enhances their stats, and TBC immediately hampers that, which is part of the appeal of Vanilla for some players.

Why the hell would Turtle nerf IVE and then ask about removing world buffs? The Improved Shadowform bug that has been on the tracker for a long time now HASN’T EVEN BEEN FIXED YET, so I can’t respec during a raid to help more on some of the fights because I won’t have enough mana economy on later fights as Shadow because of the combination of that bug and the nerf. My mana ticks from Mind Flay went from 30ish with full buffs and consumables to 20ish.

People that want World Buffs removed either 1) don’t raid and are just voting No because they hear that the world buff community is toxic, 2) are too lazy to do the basics for raid prep and in group settings are objectively dead weight players and bottom feeders, 3) play some meme spec that lacks an actually good niche for raiding and would rather have other people nerfed than ask for balanced buffs that brings their spec up to being good enough to bring to raid. Or 4) people like Laughadin who want world buffs shifted to being some sort of class buffs which would allow for more diverse raid composition without making the raids take longer.

The EPL Towers DON’T EVEN DO ANYTHING INSIDE NAX. Most turtle players are also not so sweaty that they would go capture all the towers to speed up their Scourgestone farming and Stratholme runs.

World buffs are super helpful for progression and for speeding up raids. Why spend 4-8 hours in a slog on farm when you can have a good composition and world buffs then clear the 40-man raid in 1.5-3 hours? That gives the raiders MORE time to farm LESS consumables each week and frees us up to do other activities. For Progression, that gives new teams something they can lean on when they need just a bit of oomph to push past something they are struggling on. <Macrochelys> has also proven that this perfectly achievable without having people change their professions and do speed runs, we just ask for people to come prepared and at minimum to pull their own weight. Competitive speed runs would be noticeably shorter.

If there are people that find one raid team too toxic because of what they ask of their raiders, they can always find a more casual team to join or start their own, and starting their own will be easier if their team is able to collect world buffs to help with progression.

How Turtle implemented empty Chronoboons as Unique BOP rather than letting people buy multiple is also super annoying for even collecting all the world buffs.

How this server treats Shaman totems has ALWAYS been absolute garbage and SHOULD be a SEPARATE discussion from the morons wanting to get rid of World Buffs.

Shamans being able to outright GRIEF people by using totems to remove blessings with WORSE totems is really terrible design. Always has been, and is contradictory to even how Blizzard determines non-stacking buff priority. There is NO REASON to have ANY capstone spell to remove friendly people’s buffs. On teams that use Windfury, Ferals/Hunters that are in the shaman group get griefed by Windfury removing Kings even if they have sharpening stones applied to their weapons. Resto and Elemental shamans NERF THEMSELVES BY PLACING WINDFURY TOTEMS BECAUSE THEY LOSE KINGS. If the shaman accidentally clicks Tranquil Air or Mana Spring, 4 other people get instantly punished for that one person’s mistake. I know for a fact that a workaround can be made for Mana Tide so it’s not just a talent used in pvp/farming for a mana boost.

HOW TO FIX THE SHAMAN/PALADIN PROBLEM:
Switch Blessing of Might to competing with Strength of Earth instead of Windfury, make Mana Tide NOT compete with Blessing of Wisdom, and then 1 of the 2 following options.
1) give Paladin blessings priority over Shaman totems, this would also fix the Windfury griefing caster shamans, Ferals, and Hunters.
2) buff the Shaman totems so they are as good as Paladin blessings (taking the Shaman T3 into account) then give Weapon consumables priority over Windfury while still allowing weapon consumables to stack with Kings to fix caster shamans griefing themselves

This isn’t even talking about the times historically TWoW has implemented changes that negatively impact specifically the raiders on this server while also not addressing the bugs that make some content more difficult that it is supposed to be, which makes it even worse on newly forming raid teams when they step into AQ40 and Nax.

[Dryade]

Anyone on this thread who thinks that Naxx is a breeze and that world buffs are just needed to "speed run" sadly have no idea what they are talking about. With the constant disconnects, the TWOW bugs and extra monster armor, world buffs actually just help counter all those things. Removing world buffs without compensating the raids difficulty would actually hurt the raiding community that is starting to expand. Why are so many non-raiders voting to remove the buffs when it is a thing they don't even have to worry about in the first place? Removing world buffs would not make retribution paladins or moonkins accepted into raids, it would hurt them even more as the content would become increasingly challenging and make a perfect raid comp even more necessary.

As for shaman totems stacking with paladin buffs, it is a totally different issue and Dawnbreaker has perfectly highlighted what needs to be done about that in the post above this one.

[Kayle]

Nice, so Naxx raiding guilds will take 5-6h per ID clear instead of ~4h
If you're about to release a new raid just remove WB's there.
It should be a decision on every guild/player themselfs if they want to go for WB's or not.
Since there is no race for first kills right now it doesn't matter, but it will punish ppl who try to do parse runs.

[Biaffra]

No, do not remove world buffs. Nobody is forced to take them if they dont want, so i dont see a reason to remove them in the first place. Stacking of shaman and paladin would be neat feature.

[Lowend]

Removing wbuffs takes away something that the 'hardcore' raiders enjoy, people who do not enjoy wbuffs already have the option of simply not using them. Some have said this is not a valid argument but I disagree - if you are unwilling to get free buffs you likely are not willing to get all your consumes, play a meta spec, or some other reason that will cause 'toxic sweaty' guilds to NOT give you a raid spot.

The idea that this will lead to spec diversity is insane. If this is your argument you need to consider that slower kills/raids will only cause serious raid teams to be STRICTER with what classes they bring

Tldr: if you wanna play more casually it is an option that already exists in game - right now! Removing an aspect from the game punishes those that enjoy it

[Kingcrash]

they can't remove world buffs without buffing other aspects, if this is the intent they need to go for it, one of the easiest things is make all aura's and totems raid wide to help this. Lots of post are being made in the suggestions forums about this due to this topic

[Temperance]

Removing world buffs now with the idea that classes will be buffed at some point in the future is only going to make raiding more tedious in the meantime. Remove world buffs and buff classes at the same time if you do it, please. I understand the reasoning for removing world buffs to balance classes; it just doesn't make sense to separate these changes.