Paladin overall overhaul ideas for a better class (will keep on updating).

[Papum]

Wanted to make suggestions on how to improve the paladin class because there is still a lot of issues with the vanilla paladin that still exists that could have been adressed here in turtle wow instead of repeating retail's own mistakes of releasing and maintaining an broken class (Some suggestions below were or are close to changed implemented at later expansions, why not use such ideias instead of letting it be vanilla broken ?).


General paladin class changes:

- Add five different kinds of judgments to choose from 'Judgment of light' that puts a debuff on the target for 30 seconds that heals everyone that hits it and 'Judgment of Wisdom' that puts a debuff on target that returns mana back to everyone that hits it, 'Judgment of Justice' wich puts runs speed bonuses of other players to 0 and impossibilitates mobs/npc's to run from battle, 'Judgment of the Crusader' that does the respective judged effect and an normal damage 'Judgment' that does the respective damage part of an current seal, yet they do not replace the judgment effects of seals so an paladin can have both an judgment effect and and an judged seal effect active on the same target, also change the duration of all seal judgment effect from 10 sec to an 30 sec duration giving time to refresh through normal melee swings in pve when y need to distance yourself from an boss and than get back in so it doesn't expire and you have to chose an other seal > judge that seal > chose your main seal > judge that seal transforming this down time into mana and dps loss (mana for prot, mana and dps for rettribution). (Utility, an form of helping healing or improvment of mana)

- Add to 'Seal of Justice''s judgment the ability to remove any speed gain of the debuffed target while it persists on the target (if it already isn't ingame tooltips don't explain much and have not tested it yet). (Gains an bit mobility control and distance maintaining or gap closing capability)

- Make the baseline 'Judgment' spell's range bigger so it can pull/attack mobs from afar better, else follow the ideia in the Holy paladin section of this thread. (This will benefit all specs of paladins to be able to pull for tanking, judge healing judgment from afar for holy and judging while not being able to be near the target for retribution in pve, while in pvp it serves to be able to maintain in combat and attack others from afar better because of not having any sprint nor gap closing ability)

- Merge 'Retibution aura' ability into the 'Devotion Aura' ability, and change the 'Retibution aura' to have the current ability of 'Sanctity Aura', also change Devotion Aura to reduce 3% percentage of damage (like in shadowlands). (Better for protection and retribution paladins)

- Merge all resistance auras into one Aura (Better overrall)

- Change Seals to not be consumed when judged and prolong their time to 10-30 min. (This will improve mana usage)

- Change single buffs timers to 30 min and raid buffs to 1 hour if the latter is not already. (This will improve mana usage & quality
of life of all paladin players and other buffed players)

- Remove 'Blessing of life' and rework that the paladin can do that extra healing as talent and not something that can be removed, debuffed or even has to be re-apllied as currently every 5 min, this is something that should be inbuild in the holy paladin and not relying on exterior alterations such as buffs. (Better structured way of playing)

- Rename 'Blessing' of Freedom, Protection, Salvation and Sacrifice to -Hand- as in retail or if you want to be different
-Arm- (as in long arm of the law) to not overwrite the current normal buffing blessings might, wisdom, kings and
sanctuary. (This will improve mana usage)

- Change 'Exorcism' to affect all targets but give bonus damage to undeads or demons and to be an 3 sec castable spell instead of instant with no cd. (This will improve dps with specific talents sugested below and help
holy tree have an schockadin tree cast rotation)

- Change 'Holy Strike' to refresh seals judgment effects (it helps whit keeping the seals judged effect active because how it stands now it forces the paladin to lose the weapon swing timer in potential refresh time having to wait for the next swing) and add an self buff that increases the next weapon swing's in the next 6 - 8 seconds has an addittional percentage (33% ?) to trigger any seal effect that is active, when an seal effect is triggered it consumes the buff (this will atleast give 'Seal of Command' an better chance to proc, as it can go an long period of time without even procing the seal by so stabelising dps a bit more in both environments [a lot of peole have the misconception of the "Big" burst of the paladin when the seal finnaly procs and deals a burst of damage yet they don't fail to acknowledge the truth of the dowtime this rng mechanic can have without any proc for a long time thus in vanilla it was called "Seal of Casino", or simply said they only see what they want to see]), if 'Seal of Righteousness' is the current seal it will strike two additional closeby targets, if 'Seal of Justice' is the current seal it will give an extra percentage of being able to stun the target. (This will improve utility, dps and aoe aggro buildup or interrupt for protection paladins)

- Change 'Divine Protection' to reduce physical damage and spelldamage recieved by 20 percent and still cause forbearance. (Will make the 'Divine Protection' less absolete because you have basicly 'Blessing of Protection' doing the same thing)

- Change 'Crusader strike''s mana cost to be reduced (this depends on how the other mana return mechanism end up being implemented) and add an 5-10 sec cd on it, change the augment holy damage to reduce all magic resist or increase spelldamage taken by the target by an precentage and make it stack. (this talent seems to give the impression that it is op, yet its really mana hungry and really unsustainable for a pvp or pve retribution paladin because in pvp if you use soc y cn or not proc the seal and in less than 15 sec spaming it plus other normal rotation you'l be oom and y defeated probably one player only just to go back to graveyard because your are worthless now unless y have waters wich is dependability on other things outside the mechanisms of the class to support what should be in the mechanisms of the class and in pve try that in raid settings you'l end up starring more time at the boss than probably doing proper damage, it gives a defined damage wich does not scale with weapon damage (in my knowledge) plus possibility of proc of the current seal and adds the debuff (the seal proc does scale with weapon but that it alway's did), more overall utility for benefit of multiple magic classes plus the paladin like the warrior's sunder benefits the warrior and all mellee)

- Add 'Rebuke' ability to base for melee interrupt (Interupt on demand).

- Currently it seems that the shaman mana totem conflicts and overwrites the Blessings of the paladin (overall more group and raid buffs).

- Make auras raid wide (This applies also to totems etc. ...)

- I know that this would probably be a lot to do but changing Naxx's tier sets for all classes to include all specs could be done in two different ways: -> By hybridizing the hybrid sets with strenght, agility and spellpower again, non hybrid dps and healer classes sets's stats would have to be towned down a bit but still the same as it was in previous raid dungeons non hybrid's doing more damage than hybrid ones (better to compare the difference in gear itemization with previous Raiding dungeons so you could see how much each stats would increase from lower dungeons to higher ones). Yet for that you would also have to adjust the whole of Naxx's encounters in regards of hp and damage done by enemies to the now overall hp and damage output of the recalibrated raid gear tier sets of all classes and specs. In theory you would have the same difficulty of how Naxx is now but with all specss being able to have tiered gear that can help them become more viable in Naxx aswell. Or -> Simply change as later expansion you deliver the armor token and choose what class spec tier you would want to buy/make.


Retibution specialization and talent tree changes:

- Add to 'Improved Seal of the Crusader' when an player with points in this talent judges an target that has the Seal of Crusader debuff on them it will put an DoT based on waepon damage (one handed do less than two handed) doing holy damage on the target for 30 sec and can stack till 5 stacks and now seal judgment spells can refresh it aswell. (This will improve dps and quality of life)

- Change 'Seal of Comand', this seal should be the retributions iconic seal for both pvp and pve because 'Seal of Righteousness' is more an holy and in an lesser extent should be the protection seal (thats why it doesn't scale wih weapon damage but instead of speed butting the brakes of scaling damage on to it). Put it in the former position of 'Improved Retribution Aura' with an arrow pointing towards 'Sanctified command'. (This will stabalise and increase the steadyness dps for pve environment yet maintaining still a reduced bursty signature fealing)

- Change the 'Sanctified command''s to return 100 percent base mana cost of 'Seal of Command' back to the player when using Judgment of Command and a 20 percent base mana cost of 'Seal of Command' back for the entire group when using Judgment of Command (this will make the 'Seal of Command' cost no mana to seal up and with 'Benediction' if i'm correct will give an extra mana back on judging 'Seal of Command' to prolonging the duration of maintaining their rotation by spending the extra gained back mana in other abilities and also give something for the party to benefit from, so effectively: for the player only -> [100% base mana that is an fixed value of 'Seal of command' 'ex.10' + 15% 'Benediction' reduction of 'Seal of Command' upon puting up the seal 'ex.1.5' = total mana return 'ex.11.5', wich is the fixed base mana cost '10' + reduction real cost '1.5' better explained you really payed for 'ex.8.5' when applying 'Seal of Command' instead of the 'ex.10' wich is the real base cost without the benediction reduction so you saved 'ex.1.5' mana, but because of Judgment of Command returns the fixed base cost of 'ex.10' instead of the reduced through benediction 'ex.8.5' you get an extra 'ex.1.5' from sealing on top of that fixed ''ex.10' from judging with 'Seal of Command' mana back] + [the 20 percent base mana cost of 'Seal of Command' back for the entire group when using Judgment of Command] 'ex.2'] = an total gain of 'ex.13.5' mana on each Judgment of Command while spending zero on sealing). Add threat reduction to the usages of the seal and also change it into one talent instead of two to loosen up talent points for retribution paladins. It still has the dispell resist. (This will improve mana usage [the percentage of mana return could be adjusted])

- Change 'Improved Retribution Aura' to have an small percentage chance on crit for all affected by the aura (the slower the weapon the higher percentage of triggering) to trigger an temporary buff on weapon swing or casting an offensive spell that says you have an chance to do extra holy damage on your next melee swing equal to an small % of normal weapon damage or your next spell has it's cast time reduced by 1.5 sec, when used one or another to buff is consumed. Make it one talent instead and change places with the 'Vindication' talent. (Overral better talent building posibilities [thinking of shockadin reaching this aswell] and retribution signiture seal like ability for all)

- Change 'Repentance' for pvp to ten seconds and still break on damage and pve an one min duration on targeted humanoid, dragonkin, undead, demons and giants only excluding beasts like in retail, also it does not break on the DoT applied by 'Improved Seal of the Crusader' DoT ideia or 'Holy Strike' mentioned above, and also probably it would be better if it wasn't the 31 talent but an lower tier talent. (For CC purposes)

- Put an talent on an high row (so holy or prot can't reach it) that converts intellect and strenght into an small percentage of holy damage spellpower and that will make retribution paladins an spellpower based melee fighter that damages with Holy abilities that scale from this, this will now make paladins prefer paladin gear that is an mix of intellect and strenght gear instead of plain strenght warrior gear, and an retribution paladin in its definition is an mix of an warrior and an cleric so strenght plus spellpower. Also try to reduce points in other talent (By making them ex.: 5/5 > 3/3) instead of just adding more talents that will cost more points to use it, because you have only so much points to spend.


Protection specialization and talent tree changes:

- Change 'Improved Devotion Aura' to merge with the old 'Improved Retribution Aura' ability and instead of inceasing armor value it reduces an extra 1 percent overall damage for each talent ivested in it. (Better for protection paladins)

- Change the percentage of mana gained values of 'Shield Specialization'. (This will improve mana usage)

- Add to 'Improved hammer of Justice' the ability to silence even when the target is immune to the stun and make it an one talent. (This will give protection an pve interrupt/silence and holy healadins an pvp silence also it will free up talent points)

- Change the 'Improved Seal of Justice' stun percentage to 1/3 of current full talented and make it an one talent. (Will Free up talent points)

- Add to 'Holy Shield' the ability when activated to be able to block spells aswell making the paladin aoe tank an hybrid tank that can tank fairly good melee bosses but falls behind the excelling of melee tanking of the warrior yet they can tank better spellcaster type bosses than the warrior and druid (wich tanks slightly better than the warrior spellcaster bosses and slightly better than the paladin melee bosses but excells in none). (Niche tanking)

- Reduce 'Shield Specialization' talent to one talent point. (Free's up talent points)

- Reduce ''Improved Righteous Fury' talent to two talent points. (Free's up talent points)

- Change 'Antecipation' (to antecipate = use of mind 'intellect' to be ready for something in this case defense) to give an percentage of defense based on paladin's intellect wich will increase their blocking chance a bit more and in conjunction with 'Holy Shield' and 'Blessing of Sanctuary' will cause more damage/threat not mentioning. (Will make tier sets and hybrid gear more enticing because they currently don't have extra defense on them and help on scaling defense also)

- Add a new talent to the fifth row called 'Holy Presence' wich gives an percentage of holy damage spellpower based on the paladin's intellect, and also it increases the changed 'Divine Protection' spell damage mitigation by an extra 20 percent but increases it's cd time by 10 min. (Gives more damage and by so more threat and also improves the changed 'mini shield wall' for the protection paladin)


Holy specialization and talent tree changes:

- Change 'Spiritual Focus' to include 'Exorcism' aswell. (Shockadin build improvments)

- Change 'Improved Seal of Righteousness' to an three point talent increasing damage done by 5/10/15%. (Cleares up talent points)

- If not made it baseline for all paladins as sugested in the General paladin class changes make an new ability called 'Long Arm of The Law' at second row with 2/2 talent points on the second row that will increase the range of all judgments spells, if followed the above ideia of the DoT's of 'Improved Seal of the Crusader' it will help in maintaning in pvp targets in battle else an pve shockadin's long ranged dps, maintain in this position to benefit both shockadin and retribution builds. (New rotation mechanism with refreshing the new two types of base judgments for healing and mana gain debuff on the target so to change the holy paladin a bit away from the healbot)

- Instead of 'Sanctity Aura''s place at row 3 put an new holy talent called 'Sanctity' that has an arrow linked from the above mentioned 'Long Arm of The Law' that allows for judgments to be able trough an percentage chance to trigger an self buff that says the next flash of light or exorcism will be an instant cast, remains an one point talent. (Gives holy a new rotation and playstyle, also helps the shockadin becoming more viable)

- Add to 'Illumination' the 'Exorcism' spell. (Support to the shockadin variant of the holy tree)

- Add to 'Divine Favor' the 'Exorcism' spell (Support to the shockadin variant of the holy tree)

[Sinrek]

Sounds like you want to play retail, not vanilla.

[Papum]

Sounds like you want to play retail, not vanilla.

They have overhauled a lot of classes with ideais used in retail and changed the base game, this is not classic if it were they would not change or invent new abilities for the classes.

[Sinrek]

Sounds like you want to play retail, not vanilla.

They have overhauled a lot of classes with ideais used in retail and changed the base game, this is not classic if it were they would not change or invent new abilities for the classes.

They did some of them, clearly inspired by TBC, true. So?

[Kerenis]

Honestly, youre asking too much

[Papum]

Honestly, youre asking too much

These are what was suggested ideias take what you want, leave what you want or adjust what you think can be adjusted. Other classes for what i have seen have had a lot of changes from multiple wow expansion and new ideias. From what i have seen and know from playing retail since retail the changes done to the paladin specialy holy and retribution are minimum and everyone knows from those times that the paladin was really broken and only holy was kinda playable at that time. So by my perspectives these is far from asking much in the aspect of changes possible, there have been some changes done to the retribution tree and prot but compared to other classes and specs the changes have been fairly minimum and the specs still suffer from a lot of things that vanilla paladin specs suffered from and the retribution and protection could get a lot more love to be a par of the other classes. Like the other classes the dev team can use talents and abilities from all the wow expansions to adjust the specs of the paladin class.

[Kerenis]

Small tweaks here and there is ok. Meddling with class viability leads to PVP balance issues, we have seen in V+ what too much changes leads to. Population jumps to FotM given the case, and that destroys the server

So far, hybrid classes stand on a better spot than Classic. Turtle steps

[Kwayver]

viewtopic.php?f=41&t=2934

[Alender]

I think, that today paladin, need more neerf, not buff.

[Papum]

Small tweaks here and there is ok. Meddling with class viability leads to PVP balance issues, we have seen in V+ what too much changes leads to. Population jumps to FotM given the case, and that destroys the server

So far, hybrid classes stand on a better spot than Classic. Turtle steps

True turtle steps, these are only ideias that could be tweaked with an implemented if so desired, as said on title i'm still trying to balance things around while i think about the stuff better. It's true all of what you said and indeed it's in a better state than vanilla yet still not close to viable.

[Geojak]

I agree with sinrek, your suggestions sound like Wotlk paladin to me. Your jugmenrt system, No thx. You also proposed multiple major overbuffs like the aura combinations.
Honestly it's just too many changes too.

I generally like vanilla paladin, don't ruin it. Ww just need a small handful fixes to what we already have.

Make obsolete seal of crusader useful, gives seal of light +heal scale, introduce exocism so tanks have a ranged pull.
Add threat reduction talent to ret tree.

Don't overhaul everything about the hole class

[Papum]

I agree with sinrek, your suggestions sound like Wotlk paladin to me. Your jugmenrt system, No thx. You also proposed multiple major overbuffs like the aura combinations.
Honestly it's just too many changes too.

I generally like vanilla paladin, don't ruin it. Ww just need a small handful fixes to what we already have.

Make obsolete seal of crusader useful, gives seal of light +heal scale, introduce exocism so tanks have a ranged pull.
Add threat reduction talent to ret tree.

Don't overhaul everything about the hole class

I prefer to remain just watching the comments because everyone has an right to their own opinion, i have been a paladin in retail for an reallly long time so i speak of my own experience. What i see is that the amount of changes given to an paladin in this turtle wow server is still far from comparable to the changes (many of them that were implemented from expansions far from vanilla) other classes and their respective specs have been given and (retibution) spec that was proven and accepted to be broken in the meaning of not viable in vanilla (being that the only viable spec was holy making the paladin basicly mean holy paladin and nothing more because in truth ret would only be played as pvp mostly because if accepted in pve it's simply that your guild was carrying you), for me to see people say vanilla paladin was good and to stay that way that reminds me of back in the day's of the real wow vanilla where people that did not really play/like the paladin classes (specially retribution and in an minor aspect the protection spec) simply opposed the paladin class to be upgraded (mainly because of spite) into a better version of itself complaining a lot to stifle that from happening, Wotkl paladin in comparassem to vanilla or even burning crusade was by far better than both the latter. "If something isn't broken don't change it", so if something is broken change it, and if that requires major changes so be it like all classes have been through throug the years its' a normal process. The judgment system is a system that was used in retail it's not 'mine'. In conclusion if one cheers for other specs to gain new things or from many further expansions but you condemn one specced to receive the same treatment -> If one doesn't want growth to happen than do it only to yourself don't force others into the same hole.

[Novola]

Plain copy of Wotlk paladin, with 0 individual thought. I wouldnt like any of the proposed changes.

Paladins on classic wow have very distinct feel, diferent from other expansions (closer to tbc, i guess), and that is something that needs to be preserved and cherished.

My personal thoughts, from what I think would benefit paladins of all specs, is only few minor adjustments:

1. Increased range of judgements!
For holy, it allows for easier Judgement of light aplication and upkeep, without the need to move and run in the boss (in raid environments), which is holy's weaknes, healing on the move.
For prot, nice range pull with instant aplication of Seal of choice, solves the need for "exorcism damages everything" change, which could prove to be too unbalanced.
For ret, same as for prot, and keeps them from being too bursty with aforementioned change to exorcism.

2.Simple taunt for prot specc!
Explains itself. No need to waste 3 points on rarely used seal, except for its judgement effect, just to get taunt, which kinda feels like it was always supposed to be there.

Holy is great atm, Ret certainly doesnt need more burst, and Prot could use just a little tiny buff.

[Papum]

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[Tobieski]

Hey people,
Since I am always playing paladin (in every expansion of the game) what I really like about the paladins in vanilla is that they are supporting class. IMHO to make the ret paladins desirable for raids they should bring something unique and I think it shouldn't be a top DPS (because otherwise warriors and rogues will become less required).
I was think about something else - for example a ret talent brilliance aura (deep in the ret tree).
So how this aura will works, when the aura is active and the paladin strikes a critical strike, all the party will get 1% of the critical as a mana reward (and maybe 1 rage/ 1 energy) and this effect cannot be triggered more than once in 5 second interval.
So lets imagine a ret pally with good consumables and buffs can crit around 3k (with max rank holy strike) - this will return to the party members 30 mana. I think this will ensure at least 2 ret pallies in a raid - so 1 pally in every healers party. So in the end - the stronger the pally hits, the more desirable it becomes.
Please consider the numbers can be adjusted to not become overpowered.
Cheers !

[Papum]

Hey people,
Since I am always playing paladin (in every expansion of the game) what I really like about the paladins in vanilla is that they are supporting class. IMHO to make the ret paladins desirable for raids they should bring something unique and I think it shouldn't be a top DPS (because otherwise warriors and rogues will become less required).
I was think about something else - for example a ret talent brilliance aura (deep in the ret tree).
So how this aura will works, when the aura is active and the paladin strikes a critical strike, all the party will get 1% of the critical as a mana reward (and maybe 1 rage/ 1 energy) and this effect cannot be triggered more than once in 5 second interval.
So lets imagine a ret pally with good consumables and buffs can crit around 3k (with max rank holy strike) - this will return to the party members 30 mana. I think this will ensure at least 2 ret pallies in a raid - so 1 pally in every healers party. So in the end - the stronger the pally hits, the more desirable it becomes.
Please consider the numbers can be adjusted to not become overpowered.
Cheers !

Not bad Ideias, yet tying the main mana return of an spec/class to rng isn't the best of ideias, it could be if it was seperate from self mana return and would give the team and self an extra mana/resource return. Probably add into imp retribution aura?
Balancing an class around needing comsumbles to be used would also not be a good ideia.

[Broxas]

I feel like itemization is 90% of ret paladins problem, and less the spec ossues. Only needs a few tweaks on the class to be viable, its honestly the gear that sucks for ret and prot.

Specifically for ret: Judgement range, mana costs on seals/concecrate, and I liked the exorcism idea above doing base dmg and increased to undead things.

For prot: taunt, redoubt from all dmg and add in the spiritual attunement to get back mana from heals taken I think.

Then its just a matter of itemization imo

[Novola]

I wrote in another post something about curent paladin status, and i think it deserves to be here too.
We curently have people complaining about too high of a damage that paladin dishes out (well, in pvp mostly), and they are apsolutely right! Its very bursty, unmitigated holy damage, that can destroy mobs (and players) in 1 global cooldown! It is simply reality. Add 6 seconds stun to that, and it gers even uglier... and there are some who even want to make exorcism usable on all targets! More burst?!
I have spoken before about this changes, and playing even longer on this server now, has made it crystal clear, what paladin class needs:
Protection:
*Neeeeeds taunt*
Straight up, no mana cost, 8-10secs cooldown taunt. No bulshit here. Warrs have it, druid bears have it, paladins MUST have it.
*Spiritual atunement*
Or something that will do the same thing. On pulls of large packs, there is no mana issues, you slap seal of wisdom, judge, reaply SoW, and let the consecration or holy shield do the job for you. You get mana by blocking lots of hits.
On single target pulls, where lots of threat is needed, if i try to use all my spells and consecration, for max tps, i am oom within seconds. Initial burst of threat, high dps teamates will easily reach. While 31 talent point is certainly good (in some situations) id gladly trade it for spiritual attunement as last protection talent. For those who doesnt know, spiritual attunement is tbc ability that restores mana to paladin based on how much is being healed by others. Helps a LOT.
*Increased judgement range*
Nice, simple solution to range pulling, select your seal, judge it, by the time mob (or mobs) reach you, you have your main seal ready. No majir change in mechanuc of a class, simple change that makes lots of difference.

Retribution tree:

Delicate situation here. People want it to be better, viable, (i am one of them, always been!) useable in raids, but not OP in pvp, and it is very thin line there. My suggestion is this:
lower the damage of holy strike (its really high now) keep it holy dmg, but just tune it to be lower. Remove stun bonus damage of seal of command (again, less burst) but, most important:
*make judgement restore at least 30% of total mana!*
Make paladin do less bursty damage, but make him much more mana sustainable, so we can actually use our abilities (consecration, exorcism), that we can judge on cd, which will overall increase damage in pve, but reduce burstines in pvp. That way "reduced cd on judgement" talent acctually becomes super usefull! In current state, you toss that SoC on and dont dare judge/reapply seal, since it eats 30% of mana.
We already have talent that restores mana on judgement, but its so pitifull return that its practicaly wasted points in talent tree. Make it restore more mana! And make it exlusive for ret!

I wont suggest anything for holy, i dont play that specc, and certainly there are players more familiar with it than me. Prot and ret, i know inside out and backwards. Playing both since 2005.

Think about it.

[Papum]

I feel like itemization is 90% of ret paladins problem, and less the spec ossues. Only needs a few tweaks on the class to be viable, its honestly the gear that sucks for ret and prot.

Specifically for ret: Judgement range, mana costs on seals/concecrate, and I liked the exorcism idea above doing base dmg and increased to undead things.

For prot: taunt, redoubt from all dmg and add in the spiritual attunement to get back mana from heals taken I think.

Then its just a matter of itemization imo

An interesting suggestion with spiritual attunement it really would be nice to put it in the prot talent tree. For the taunt part they already solved that with 'Improved Seal of Justice' in the prot talent tree, shame that judgments don't have a longer range and you have to juggle seals and judgment that waste global cd's and mana to use it while switching back to the former seal.

[Papum]

I wrote in another post something about curent paladin status, and i think it deserves to be here too.
We curently have people complaining about too high of a damage that paladin dishes out (well, in pvp mostly), and they are apsolutely right! Its very bursty, unmitigated holy damage, that can destroy mobs (and players) in 1 global cooldown! It is simply reality. Add 6 seconds stun to that, and it gers even uglier... and there are some who even want to make exorcism usable on all targets! More burst?!
I have spoken before about this changes, and playing even longer on this server now, has made it crystal clear, what paladin class needs:
Protection:
*Neeeeeds taunt*
Straight up, no mana cost, 8-10secs cooldown taunt. No bulshit here. Warrs have it, druid bears have it, paladins MUST have it.
*Spiritual atunement*
Or something that will do the same thing. On pulls of large packs, there is no mana issues, you slap seal of wisdom, judge, reaply SoW, and let the consecration or holy shield do the job for you. You get mana by blocking lots of hits.
On single target pulls, where lots of threat is needed, if i try to use all my spells and consecration, for max tps, i am oom within seconds. Initial burst of threat, high dps teamates will easily reach. While 31 talent point is certainly good (in some situations) id gladly trade it for spiritual attunement as last protection talent. For those who doesnt know, spiritual attunement is tbc ability that restores mana to paladin based on how much is being healed by others. Helps a LOT.
*Increased judgement range*
Nice, simple solution to range pulling, select your seal, judge it, by the time mob (or mobs) reach you, you have your main seal ready. No majir change in mechanuc of a class, simple change that makes lots of difference.

Retribution tree:

Delicate situation here. People want it to be better, viable, (i am one of them, always been!) useable in raids, but not OP in pvp, and it is very thin line there. My suggestion is this:
lower the damage of holy strike (its really high now) keep it holy dmg, but just tune it to be lower. Remove stun bonus damage of seal of command (again, less burst) but, most important:
*make judgement restore at least 30% of total mana!*
Make paladin do less bursty damage, but make him much more mana sustainable, so we can actually use our abilities (consecration, exorcism), that we can judge on cd, which will overall increase damage in pve, but reduce burstines in pvp. That way "reduced cd on judgement" talent acctually becomes super usefull! In current state, you toss that SoC on and dont dare judge/reapply seal, since it eats 30% of mana.
We already have talent that restores mana on judgement, but its so pitifull return that its practicaly wasted points in talent tree. Make it restore more mana! And make it exlusive for ret!

I wont suggest anything for holy, i dont play that specc, and certainly there are players more familiar with it than me. Prot and ret, i know inside out and backwards. Playing both since 2005.

Think about it.

As i stated on the post before they already sorta fixed the taunt part with the 'Improved Judgment of Justice' talent minus the range of the judgments, juggling with global cd's, mana and reapplying previous seals.
Spiritual attunement for prot is great (it wasn't liked that much in tbc because of for the rest of specs it mainly only worked for retribution belfs because of seal of blood's self damage and that mainly also in an pve environment).
I have suggested an dot dps increase that takes about 40 sec to get to full stack for an paladin with the 'Improved Judgment' talent and 50 sec for one without, and it increases its damage based on your main weapon damage this way its an controlled increase of dps that takes some time to build up so there is no burst involved.
Mana returns are alway's tricky to figure out because of the other specs mainly holy being able to abuse it.

[Kwayver]

I feel like itemization is 90% of ret paladins problem, and less the spec ossues. Only needs a few tweaks on the class to be viable, its honestly the gear that sucks for ret and prot.

Specifically for ret: Judgement range, mana costs on seals/concecrate, and I liked the exorcism idea above doing base dmg and increased to undead things.

For prot: taunt, redoubt from all dmg and add in the spiritual attunement to get back mana from heals taken I think.

Then its just a matter of itemization imo

An interesting suggestion with spiritual attunement it really would be nice to put it in the prot talent tree. For the taunt part they already solved that with 'Improved Seal of Justice' in the prot talent tree, shame that judgments don't have a longer range and you have to juggle seals and judgment that waste global cd's and mana to use it while switching back to the former seal.

The problem with that talent/taunt mechanism is it's tied to a judgement which does no damage and replaces a JoW with a JoJ. It's a solution which created problems. A better design would be to cause any judgement to taunt the target so tanks don't have to wait 8-10 second before reapplying wisdom or using JoR to grab threat.

Almost every change twow made to paladins has had the same effect. Every new spell or talent just introduces more problems for the class. It's appreciated that they are taking the time to consider and implement new ideas but I'm not sure where the devs get their ideas from because it definitely doesn't come from someone who plays the class as a main.

[Kerebrien]

"... Lose the swing timer."

Dude. Holy Strike is not 'losing your swing timer'.
Holy Strike is absolutely busted. Any warrior would DROOL if they could turn their next swing into magic damage plus bonus damage.
Axe this shit, right fucking now.

[Novola]

Its not "solved" by any means. Taunt that costs 3 talent points, makes you switch to seal of justice, judge, switch to seal that u were using, all on global cooldown? Thats not taunt, thats just complicated, to little effect.
I am prot, and i didnt even specc into it.

[Papum]

"... Lose the swing timer."

Dude. Holy Strike is not 'losing your swing timer'.
Holy Strike is absolutely busted. Any warrior would DROOL if they could turn their next swing into magic damage plus bonus damage.
Axe this shit, right fucking now.

Sad people just want to comlpain without even knowing the mechanic itself and reading what the thread is realling refering to, talking about oranges than someone comes to complain about apples... . To refresh an judged seal effect you gotta hit it with your melee weapon to refresh it to 10 sec again, currently if one judged effect expires you have to put an different sealed judged effect costs a lot of time and mana. So yes it " "... Lose the swing timer." " to be able to refersh seal effects on the target.

[Papum]

Its not "solved" by any means. Taunt that costs 3 talent points, makes you switch to seal of justice, judge, switch to seal that u were using, all on global cooldown? Thats not taunt, thats just complicated, to little effect.
I am prot, and i didnt even specc into it.

I said "sorta fixed", most that you mention i have already mentioned to you in your previous text's response message and in my main suggestions so you bring no new information to the table. Reducing it to one talent, being it an general ability would also be interesting like to ability they introduced in WOTLK to fix that, yet i prefer it to be merged into the judging system but different type of judgements seperate from the seals mechanism so you can have a seal up and judge an different current seal effect on an target without consuming the seal you already are using, so an one talent to make the 'Seal of Justice' taunt would be more on par, we have to remind they wanna sorta keep the vannilla talent structure without changing it much so thats why i suggest for them to use those but alter them a bit to still be close to what they envision.

[Papum]

The problem with that talent/taunt mechanism is it's tied to a judgement which does no damage and replaces a JoW with a JoJ. It's a solution which created problems. A better design would be to cause any judgement to taunt the target so tanks don't have to wait 8-10 second before reapplying wisdom or using JoR to grab threat.

Almost every change twow made to paladins has had the same effect. Every new spell or talent just introduces more problems for the class. It's appreciated that they are taking the time to consider and implement new ideas but I'm not sure where the devs get their ideas from because it definitely doesn't come from someone who plays the class as a main.

See the first system that i suggested that refers to how the judgment system could work, you have the seals system and judgment systems separated so you can have ex.: 'Seal of Wisdom' up (i would prefer that you could do Seal of Righteousness and have an better mana return mechanic for prot paladins) but judge 'Judgment of Justice''s judged ability on the target without ever consuming the 'Seal of Wisdom' (better if the time would be increased from 30 sec to in my oppion 30 min), this would not just clean global cd waste but mana too for swapping around seals to judge and than to reapply the prefered seal again.

[Novola]

I said "sorta fixed", most that you mention i have already mentioned to you in your previous text's response message and in my main suggestions so you bring no new information to the table.

I am not arguing with you, why are you so defensive? There are no new information, i have stated what i think and that is all, in my opinion. I am not gona repeat what i want in every new post.

I do want taunt tho :)

[Kwayver]

The problem with that talent/taunt mechanism is it's tied to a judgement which does no damage and replaces a JoW with a JoJ. It's a solution which created problems. A better design would be to cause any judgement to taunt the target so tanks don't have to wait 8-10 second before reapplying wisdom or using JoR to grab threat.

Almost every change twow made to paladins has had the same effect. Every new spell or talent just introduces more problems for the class. It's appreciated that they are taking the time to consider and implement new ideas but I'm not sure where the devs get their ideas from because it definitely doesn't come from someone who plays the class as a main.

See the first system that i suggested that refers to how the judgment system could work, you have the seals system and judgment systems separated so you can have ex.: 'Seal of Wisdom' up (i would prefer that you could do Seal of Righteousness and have an better mana return mechanic for prot paladins) but judge 'Judgment of Justice''s judged ability on the target without ever consuming the 'Seal of Wisdom' (better if the time would be increased from 30 sec to in my oppion 30 min), this would not just clean global cd waste but mana too fo swapping around seals to judge and than to reapply the prefered seal again.

What you're suggesting is essentially the direction blizzard took paladins in wotlk. It was a good idea, however I don't think the twow devs want to copy too much from later blizzard installments to fix class problems.
Adding holy damage to judgement of wisdom/light/justice would help and is a little more interesting than what wotlk did

[Geojak]

"... Lose the swing timer."

Dude. Holy Strike is not 'losing your swing timer'.
Holy Strike is absolutely busted. Any warrior would DROOL if they could turn their next swing into magic damage plus bonus damage.
Axe this shit, right fucking now.

We will nerf it right after warriors aren't topic dps meters anymore and got their way more critically awiates nerf

[Papum]

What you're suggesting is essentially the direction blizzard took paladins in wotlk. It was a good idea, however I don't think the twow devs want to copy too much from later blizzard installments to fix class problems.
Adding holy damage to judgement of wisdom/light/justice would help and is a little more interesting than what wotlk did

Sadly even if damage would be given to each judgment there still would be the problem of seals judgment seal jumping at the beginning and every time your judged effect expires if you could not refresh it on time, that still would cause a lot of downtime from global cd's and unnecesary mana loss.

[Geojak]

What you see as a problem, I see as the core vanilla paladin design. The seal system can not be changed into the dumped down Wotlk version without losing paladins original spirit

[Papum]

What you see as a problem, I see as the core vanilla paladin design. The seal system can not be changed into the dumped down Wotlk version without losing paladins original spirit

Everyone has the right to have his/her own oppinion yet what atm the core vanilla retribution paladin was was to be an rng type of damage dealer you changing th way the judgment system works at the en of the day it will still put seals for weapon benefit and it will still use judgments so nothing changed in terms of design vison but everything changed in terms of being functional and practical. If in vanilla non holy paladins were so good in vanilla why did it have to be reworked in later versions? If something isn't broken don't change it, now repeat the latter statement but in reverse. How some things ended up in current retail can only be atributted to bad design choises of the dev's, but that doesn't change the fact that changes had to be made. So essentially you'r saying bad is good keep it that way, that leads to the start of my response "Everyone has the right to have his/her own oppinion". (Feeling to repetitive writing this simple fact...) :)

By the way i read your thread and it had an good point so i will change it in my ideias, yet i will give you credit for it.

Then we can also fix rets biggest issue. That is the threat. all hybrids have this issue of doing trash dmg but get way to easy threat.

So I propose, add to Soc the effect, reduce all threat by 15%, Similiar to berserker stance of warriors.

this is needed because naxx raiding ret paladins have hit the threat cap and CANNOT deal any more damage without pulling threat from tank and still do shit damage way below a warrior thx to berserer stacne reduces threat allowing them to do more dmg before getting threat capped.

This will make Soc interesting to use in raids depending on how high your threat is. SoR will still do better dmg, but you have more reason switch seals.

This has zero pvp implications and there shoild be the best way to buff rets.

[Geojak]

what i am saying is wotlk seal system fixed paladin issues by trowhin everything that defined paladins before into the trash and replacing it with something new instead of acutally fixing the issues.

i think we can find less intrusive solutions

[Papum]

I have updated this thread with new ideas and removed typos and old ideias that were forgotten and in it, with an overrall rearanging of the bad format aswell. So i invite those that didn't want too see what was before and those that have already seen it to give it another read because it's clearly better in my opinion.

[Kwayver]

I have updated this thread with new ideas and removed typos and old ideias that were forgotten and in it, with an overrall rearanging of the bad format aswell. So i invite those that didn't want too see what was before and those that have already seen it to give it another read because it's clearly better in my opinion.

Have just read through your changes.

The solution you are looking for is this:
https://www.chromiecraft.com/en/