Classes are Boring and to play them is a chore

[Tristfrukt]

I think after the recent changes most classes and specs are fine. What is missing is gear for some specs like the ones you mentioned above.
As an example: There's no need for taunt on each tank, but survivability is needed. So a few new drops and crafted items would help more then tweaking stuff into being the same streamlined class as another one with different blings and chimes as the only unique feature.
Threat is really easy already due to crossfaction raids.
But lack of proper itemization is a big issue for say endgame paladin tanks, and for shamans it's probably possible to count viable tank items on one hand. There could even be set bonuses that give the classes needed effects rather then adding stuff to their baseline skills and talents.

[Sapiverenus]

Druid is the only class i didn't play much, cause i don't like it and therefor i don't care about its fate. So i NEVER said to change it somehow. It's fine by me how it is now - for me it is just another player character that is able to shapeshift, what fits into wow experience.
Please, stop Your aggression on other chat participants. As for now Your reaction seems a bit overreacted... Or at least paste exact quote where You think incorret statement was written. Cause in the ones You quote i'm just saying that Shaman could be a tank. I'm mostly playing as a tank or a healer - i like those roles and think that according wow atmosphere Shaman tank idea fits well.

Sorry Sleg, for a second I confused you and Notawen. That's my bad.

Christianity is pretty masochistic and "bear it with faith" so Paladins are thematically tanks, while Shamans are thematically quite different. Shamans would make more sense leaning towards leather but I guess mail is a unique spot and Shamans are pretty unique.

There's a distinction between Shamans and Sorcerors amongst indigenous peoples, with Sorcerors being more "Eyes of the Beast" and "Shadow Priest" stuff, while Shamans tend to be healers, communicator with spirits, medicine brewers. Maybe if Shamans had special Shaman potions or profession enhancements; and they could go to locales in each zone that changes each hour (requiring an ability be pressed for a "closer" and "further" message to hone in on the spot until they find a slightly lit up area) to commune with the environment and get a small buff to spirit and stamina (similar to well-fed) . . .
[EDIT: rethinking it, this is great for druids, but Shamans need a different flavor that is still tied to the land. Sorcerors are usually Shapeshifters like Druids but there needs to be some adjustment here.]
. . . and a single improved crafted item or multiple of some resource on their next gather if they only have gathering professions.

Something thematic. Just changing a class without evolving it is a net 0 in creativity & development [which is my gripe].

Many players want shaman tank.
Most players dont care because they dont play shaman.
Few players dont want shaman tank.
Ofcourse thats just my guess.

The easiest and best solution propably would be, if the twow team just made polls about stuff like that.

But there's always a lot of new players just passing through or checking the server out that will throw their "hot take" in.
If a project doesn't have vision then it will just devolve into a failed mutant or worse version of another project. Projects need leadership not polls. Vision is #1 [Execution is also #1].

That's a great idea to implement polls. I used to play on the server where after You login as a character poll appears looking same as chat with npc window. So, You read the suggestion and close the "chat" by selecting suitable option. That way each player would be able to provide his opinion without visiting web site or discord or smthng else. And options to reply could be like:
I'd like to have Shaman tank / melee Hunter / ...
I don't mind having Shamen tank / melee Hunter /...
I don't think it's good idea to have...
I hate idea to have Shaman tank / ...
So, each active server user could vote and Twow Team would know what community really wants.
Polls results could be displayed on forum, so, everyone knows where server is moving.

But there's basically never a community. You open yourself to "bad actors" [people that don't care about the success of the server] or people that don't know better and just enable others that ask for something.
There's nothing well-thought out about hitting yes or no on a poll. You might as well ask your cat or dog. If you take development and design seriously you don't throw your hands in the air and start asking around for their opinion unless you just want to see how their opinion changes [or doesn't change] later on, or you are going to change it yourself.
EDIT: Or you're tired, bored, easily distracted, and hope someone does the thinking for you.
Putting up a poll is just an admittance that you, as a developer/ designer, have no direction or vision.

I like this approach, I thought about this sometimes while playing on another p-server.
I think it being ingame is the most important part,
because the opinions may vary from platform to platform (forum/discord and ingame).

Maybe one of us should open up a new thread for this suggestion lol.

How can you guys avoid every other game, private server, and project in the world and come to a small private server just to ask for the same lack of direction and vision and project leadership that most every other game/ project suffers?

Do you not respect anyone's direction? I am curious as to what motivates your glee.

You say yourself that opinions are varied across platforms. If you want a democratic game then look to what's most popular; masses of people have chosen THAT game to play, so You should too. It's only logical.
I don't see the point of chopping up every decision into a narrow multiple choice question with no context for the general playerbase and I doubt anyone else does too. It just seems like you guys are trying to ruin the project.

Just seems like people have such vastly different views on what this server is/should be. I don't see an issue with improving bad specs, playstyles, or classes as long as they don't get homogenized and lose their unique identity. Is it not possible to add improvements to classes without turning this into retail or going overboard and making everyone do crazy dps and have the same kit?

That's just all I want, not so good specs and playstyles seeing some love that isn't over the top buffs and dmg increases or changes that destroy their unique feel. Give ret some more group support instead of more dmg, keep druid shapeshifting unique but maybe give them some more cool new abilities, let enh shaman's have an option to be okay off tanks, give arcane mages another unique ability to use. This DOESN'T have to "turn into retail" for us to have some new and exciting ways to experience the content does it? The recent class changes were an awesome step in the right direction and I would love to see more changes like the ones they added but for more play styles that didn't seem to get too much love. (ret, ele, survival, etc.)

Because at the end of the day, in my opinion, no matter how much good content is added to the game, if the classes aren't all fun, unique and rewarding. The amount of people who can truly enjoy that new content will be more limited than it could be.

Instead of blaming the class blame the basic combat.

I just think people need to get used to the idea that the class you want to play IS viable, not just optimal. And that is OK. Making everything work all the time is what made retail classes all feel the same.
It's a slippery slope.

In my opinion the best way is to look away from meters and parses. And also for party makers and raid leaders to accept lower performing specs. I mean it's not like any content is so hard you need an optimal raid composition. The route of making everything balanced is the wrong way. Like someone mentioned earlier, make the unique stuff more unique, so that your class is attractive in certain situations, if any changes is being made at all.

And another thing to consider is that the server started leaning towards RP, where performance is a non-issue in almost every aspect.

Viable but not optimal. About right. If combat were more dynamic it would be optimal to have the "unoptimal" classes I think. Needs a lot of scripting, mechanics; then playtesting and interations to get the feel of a more authentic 'dungeon' or 'raid' that everyone has to react and adapt to.

Maybe you'll like the Shaman Brew and Spirit Communion idea I wrote up above, and have some input.

I do agree with many points presented here and also disagree with some, but in overall, it is possible to make classes unique and at the same time tweak underated specs. I think that for example making prot palas and bears on par with warrior tanks, tweaking enha shamans so they are not one-button class anymore or encourage/buff survival melee playslyle to be fun and interesting in the end help class uniqueness, RP and player experience. Make better and broaden the range of what people can play also helps to enjoy the content.

Instead of changing classes, change the content. lol.

I think after the recent changes most classes and specs are fine. What is missing is gear for some specs like the ones you mentioned above.
As an example: There's no need for taunt on each tank, but survivability is needed. So a few new drops and crafted items would help more then tweaking stuff into being the same streamlined class as another one with different blings and chimes as the only unique feature.
Threat is really easy already due to crossfaction raids.
But lack of proper itemization is a big issue for say endgame paladin tanks, and for shamans it's probably possible to count viable tank items on one hand. There could even be set bonuses that give the classes needed effects rather then adding stuff to their baseline skills and talents.

Same as above. Imagine if it were impossible to hold threat? Stoneskin or Grounding totem would be a group NEED.

At this point Sapiverenus must be trolling.
Dude is literally suggesting changes to EVERYTHING but at the same time hates us for suggesting changes to specific specs lol.
Also he accuses us for trying to make specs OP (feeding our power fantasy) and destroying the balance and identity of this game but at the same time says, that it is totally fine that a warrior tank is by far the best role for tanking and some classes should be shit in their designated role.

He clearly has no idea how a game, revolving around the "holy trinity" should be balanced.
No tank should heavily outperform another tank from a different class, same goes with every other role and class.

Balance in classes and roles ≠ No class and role identity

All I have is some people's word that specs are dogshit. Turtle already made a statement about Warrior being overpowered and they were doing something about it, and I don't know if they've made those changes already or not. I forget where I heard it but I think a Youtuber that's playing on Turtle right now relayed that bit of info. Ah, McDoubles. Probably McDoubles said it.

Survival melee already got a buff. I'm not sure where I can get Aspect of the Wolf but it's in the game apparently. Maybe it's not released yet?

There's no reason to have specializations in the Holy Trinity be the only viable classes. That's how RETAIL got made. Go play Retail.

You have a weak sense of game design, or why people want to avoid Retail and go in a better direction. The Holy Trinity shouldn't be revolved around.

EDIT: Made it more polite.

[Phoenixphire]

All I have is some people's word that specs are dogshit.

....what? Like not flaming here. But are you unironically suggesting changing the way combat works in a large way in wow yet you don't even have first hand experience that like at least half the specs in the game are bad, unfun, or just specs to grab a few talents from? Isn't that the point of the original post of this thread....? Anyone who has leveled most classes or raided in classic or in vanilla for any amount of time would have learned this. With twow's newest changes they have helped the situation somewhat... but still I don't see how you can dismiss so much of what people have said outright with your own ideas, when you are claiming you don't even fully understand the balance of vanilla with first hand knowledge.

I am not saying you can't have opinions and post cause everyone should be able to voice their opinions and I agree with some of the stuff you have said. But how can you tell me to blame the combat and not the classes, if you by your own admission are having to take people's word on the state that those classes are in? You say people don't have a good concept of game design, but I was educated a little bit in game design and I was always told "The character or class is the lens through which the player experiences the content of your game, meaning if your characters aren't fun or rewarding to play whatever other content you put in your game won't matter." And i have also heard a vanilla wow dev say something to that effect on his twitch stream before. I don't fully understand why you are coming at people so aggressively, shutting down others ideas with a sentence, and calling people idiots if you don't have much knowledge on how poor of a state vanilla wow's "meta" is. Classes do need to be tweaked, and they can be tweaked without making everyone a pure dps, a pure tank, and a pure healer. Ret can be a support buffing melee, arcane can be a support caster, etc. This doesn't need to become retail for specs to be less bad.

At the end of the day, are classes the only thing in vanilla that need improvement? No. Are they the most important thing to work on at this very moment? Id say probably not, they just got good changes and those changes need to be tested and feedback needs to be given. Are class changes more important than adding new content? Probably not to some people. But either way, classes being given love and made more fun, unique, and rewarding (not just more similar and powerful like retail) is a large part of what will make vanilla+ a long term success in my opinion.

[Sapiverenus]

All I have is some people's word that specs are dogshit.

....what? Like not flaming here. But are you unironically suggesting changing the way combat works in a large way in wow yet you don't even have first hand experience that like at least half the specs in the game are bad, unfun, or just specs to grab a few talents from? Isn't that the point of the original post of this thread....? Anyone who has leveled most classes or raided in classic or in vanilla for any amount of time would have learned this. With twow's newest changes they have helped the situation somewhat... but still I don't see how you can dismiss so much of what people have said outright with your own ideas, when you are claiming you don't even fully understand the balance of vanilla with first hand knowledge.

I am not saying you can't have opinions and post cause everyone should be able to voice their opinions and I agree with some of the stuff you have said. But how can you tell me to blame the combat and not the classes, if you by your own admission are having to take people's word on the state that those classes are in? You say people don't have a good concept of game design, but I was educated a little bit in game design and I was always told "The character or class is the lens through which the player experiences the content of your game, meaning if your characters aren't fun or rewarding to play whatever other content you put in your game won't matter." And i have also heard a vanilla wow dev say something to that effect on his twitch stream before. I don't fully understand why you are coming at people so aggressively, shutting down others ideas with a sentence, and calling people idiots if you don't have much knowledge on how poor of a state vanilla wow's "meta" is. Classes do need to be tweaked, and they can be tweaked without making everyone a pure dps, a pure tank, and a pure healer. Ret can be a support buffing melee, arcane can be a support caster, etc. This doesn't need to become retail for specs to be less bad.

At the end of the day, are classes the only thing in vanilla that need improvement? No. Are they the most important thing to work on at this very moment? Id say probably not, they just got good changes and those changes need to be tested and feedback needs to be given. Are class changes more important than adding new content? Probably not to some people. But either way, classes being given love and made more fun, unique, and rewarding (not just more similar and powerful like retail) is a large part of what will make vanilla+ a long term success in my opinion.

EDIT:Reordered a paragraph. Then reworded a line.

Enhancement Shaman I don't know much about but most people do not play Shaman (or any one class), and I do not play Shaman. I have researched classes and specs quite a bit but some things are plain misinfo online, and I don't know what Turtle has done to change Vanilla.

A tiny change like Survival .2 second CDR on Raptor/Mongoose ---> .3 second per point is conservative and I could support that.
Adding AP scaling to Raptor/Mongoose is a different kind of beast. Melee Hunter is not even a spec and detracts from the class identity and role Survival should play.


It's clear to me that there are classes and specs that are better at filling certain roles in raiding, given that they do a specific job well [such as tank the raid boss or heal the tank; or get BIG CRITS as a DPS, or clear swarms of adds well].
The raids have simple mechanics. The adds and bosses have braindead AI and everything follows a really basic threat formula for the most part.

If you've been reading what I've wrote then you know I have an issue with how raids work. If you don't see how different mechanics changes the contribution of a class then I will have to elaborate and use more examples.

If you try to change the way the game works you automatically change the weakness/power of every spec and class. That's the issue I have. Threat and raids need to change, not classes.

Why do you and others not realize how the content determines the strength of the class?


How well a class/spec PvPs, clears dungeons, levels, quests, and contributes to a raid which has multiple phases; all matters when it comes to interpretting the strength or weakness of a spec/class.

Such as whether Druid & Enhancement Shaman contributes to the Hatchling swarm in Onyxia well due to their ability to heal, tank, and dps; and whether that is a critical role depends on the tuning of the content and how threat works.

Get what I'm sayin'?

[Phoenixphire]

Why do you and others not realize how the content determines the strength of the class?

If you try to change the way the game works you automatically change the weakness/power of every spec and class. That's the issue I have. Threat and raids need to change, not classes.

So let me get this straight.... instead of making classes more "fun, unique, and rewarding." You want to change the entire way combat works. I do understand what you are saying, but it still doesn't fix the problem if specs have no redeeming qualities in the first place. Nothing ret can do can't be brought by holy or prot. Nothing BM can do can't be brought by MM and SURV. Nothing ele can do can't be done by resto or enh better. Get what I am saying? Your whole argument is based on the fact the specs are good but the game only wants the best dps, the best healer, and the best tank. THE SPECS AREN'T GOOD IN THE FIRST PLACE. And on top of that, a lot of them are extremely boring and simple to play, you complain about the raids and combat being boring, then why don't you ALSO wanna fix specs that push one button only during combat? In your ideal vanilla wow do you see people spamming one button to damage or heal? With all your talk of good design is that really what you want? Threat and raids need to change, not classes? Really? Is that REALLY what you want? With all the crazy overhauls and new combat and rpg mechanics you want people pushing 1 buttons to optimally dps? Lol what ever floats your boat bro, I'd love to play that game you are describing, but I won't be there if half the specs are useless no matter the situation and the ones that are useful half of them have close to 1 button gameplay. Not gonna argue with you.

[Sapiverenus]

Why do you and others not realize how the content determines the strength of the class?

If you try to change the way the game works you automatically change the weakness/power of every spec and class. That's the issue I have. Threat and raids need to change, not classes.

So let me get this straight.... instead of making classes more "fun, unique, and rewarding." You want to change the entire way combat works.

You're trying to sell an idea. Just because you or others say you're trying to make classes more "fun, unique, and rewarding" doesn't mean much of anything.

Selling won't work with me. Either there's substance or there isn't.

I do understand what you are saying, but it still doesn't fix the problem if specs have no redeeming qualities in the first place.

I don't know what is difficult to understand. Nothing of what I've said is difficult to "understand".

None of the Vanilla content is very difficult though. It's a casual game. Sure you can die, but you don't have to take the game too seriously to progress. Even raids are basically casual; this is coming from hardcore WoW fans that 'begged' Blizzard for Classic and stuck through every expansion up until retail (and still do retail).

Do you think I or anyone else will take you seriously by telling blatant lies and exaggerations? Get real.

Let's say you're doing a dungeon. The dungeon has added a couple mechanics where an add and boss will interrupt the healer semi-frequently and cast a strong instant-cast spell on the most vulnerable target in the group which will do a lot of damage and slow them --> then target them for 5 seconds; thus Enhancement Shamans are a good choice of DPS since they can off-heal if necessary, have Stoneskin totem for greater DR, and have the Grounding Totem to block that spell.

That's how classes can get a "buff". ffs. How don't you understand how mechanics affect the game lol?

Nothing ret can do can't be brought by holy or prot. Nothing BM can do can't be brought by MM and SURV. Nothing ele can do can't be done by resto or enh better. Get what I am saying?

People say Enhancement is weak and Elemental is better. Which is it lol. If the suggestions are for more class and spec distinction then I can probably support it. Elemental tends to spec in Heal second right? That should make them better at off-healing than Enhancement, which goes second in Elemental. Elemental builds more Int/Spell Crit which makes them better at off-healing as well.

Your whole argument is based on the fact the specs are good but the game only wants the best dps, the best healer, and the best tank. THE SPECS AREN'T GOOD IN THE FIRST PLACE.

How do you talk about what the game wants without understanding what the hell I'm saying. Honestly are you just being argumentative for no reason?

And on top of that, a lot of them are extremely boring and simple to play, you complain about the raids and combat being boring, then why don't you ALSO wanna fix specs that push one button only during combat? In your ideal vanilla wow do you see people spamming one button to damage or heal? With all your talk of good design is that really what you want? Threat and raids need to change, not classes? Really? Is that REALLY what you want? With all the crazy overhauls and new combat and rpg mechanics you want people pushing 1 buttons to optimally dps? Lol what ever floats your boat bro, I'd love to play that game you are describing, but I won't be there if half the specs are useless no matter the situation and the ones that are useful half of them have close to 1 button gameplay. Not gonna argue with you.

If you don't start with distancing the classes from one another and giving each their own core design that differentiates them from other classes, then you can't elaborate on their mechanics.

No class is literally 1 button. Different content requires different inputs. It's that simple.

[Vladis]

Thank you Phoenixphire. Well presented and clear arguments. As you said, let me slightly refrase it - does class tweaking have greater importance than TWoW vision of adding new content ? Probably not. But will the custom content be more enjoyable with fixed, interesting and fun to play vanilla classes ? Definitively.

[Sapiverenus]

Thank you Phoenixphire. Well presented and clear arguments. As you said, let me slightly refrase it - does class tweaking have greater importance than TWoW vision of adding new content ? Probably not. But will the custom content be more enjoyable with fixed, interesting and fun to play vanilla classes ? Definitively.

Do you guys ever communicate or simply preech and pat eachother on the back?

It's like you're reading from a script. "Fixed, interesting and fun to play vanilla classes".

[Venytas]

Thank you Phoenixphire. Well presented and clear arguments. As you said, let me slightly refrase it - does class tweaking have greater importance than TWoW vision of adding new content ? Probably not. But will the custom content be more enjoyable with fixed, interesting and fun to play vanilla classes ? Definitively.

I can only agree on that.

[Sapiverenus]

Here's McDoubles saying how bored players are doing dungeons on Vanilla Plus. Playing as a MELEE HUNTER on a server where everyone basically becomes OP, XP gains are way higher, and classes are "less boring to play". Here he is looking at their revamped 'Survival' Talents:

This is his first and last video on Vanilla Plus. Why? Because being OP and skipping entire sections of content because you outlevel in a couple hours isn't fun. Might as well turn on Cheats.

Here is McDoubles playing some different dungeons on Turtle and having fun along with other players:

Crescent Grove
Razorfen Down
Uldaman
Maraudon: Princess
Hateforge Quarry

You can clearly hear him say how much he likes playing Warlock in dungeons with specific usefulness only a Warlock can bring.

This should provide the people reading some insight.

[Venytas]

Here's McDoubles saying how bored players are doing dungeons on Vanilla Plus. Playing as a MELEE HUNTER on a server where everyone basically becomes OP, XP gains are way higher, and classes are "less boring to play". Here he is looking at their revamped 'Survival' Talents:

This is his first and last video on Vanilla Plus. Why? Because being OP and skipping entire sections of content because you outlevel in a couple hours isn't fun. Might as well turn on Cheats.

Here is McDoubles playing some different dungeons on Turtle and having fun along with other players:

Crescent Grove
Razorfen Down
Uldaman
Maraudon: Princess
Hateforge Quarry

You can clearly hear him say how much he likes playing Warlock in dungeons with specific usefulness only a Warlock can bring.

This should provide the people reading some insight.

What are you even saying? First, the video is 6 month old so we dont know what his feelings would be now if he would play V+.

Then he clearly said that it was boring because it is VANILLA content, he said nothing about it being boring because it is vanilla plus content and no one had any cleave, therefore the tank always pulled only one mob and this resulted in the DDs and the Heal literally doing nothing, so this part speaks FOR changes towards classes and not against + gnomeregan is a long ass dungeons and it is super boring if the pace is 1 mob pulls.

How do you know that "everyone basically becomes OP"? Have you played there? If yes, do you have any prove?
Looks like you make up assumptions again, your credibility sinks with every post you make.

The part where he speaks about the new survival tree: He seemed pretty excited about all of it. Yes he called some of it OP, but could he playtest it? No, he couldnt! And even if it turns out OP at the beginning, it can be tweaked and should be if it was!

His last video of V+ because of those reasons? How do you know, did he tell you? Again, do you have any prove?


Everything you wrote is not true and the videos you just postet as prove disprove your arguments. And one more thing to disprove your argument even more: I follow Mcdoubles for quite some time now, I know what kind of content he makes, he is doing mainly ascension ( I have a lot of playtime on this too) content, a server known for its extreme variety on builds (some of them are extremely OP) and extremely fast paced leveling experience (mostly dungeon grind), and I think that it is save to say that ascension is his favorite server, atleast if we consider the amount of content he made with this server. And ascension couldnt be further away from the vanilla experience you adore so much.

[Sapiverenus]

What are you even saying? First, the video is 6 month old so we dont know what his feelings would be now if he would play V+.

What I'm saying is stated clearly in my post and the timestamped videos.

I didn't find another V+ video on his channel, he has released about 4x the amount of footage and played probably 10x of Turtle WoW, and he has multiple legitimate complaints about Vanilla Plus; I think that clearly indicates what he prefers.

Think about it as playtesting.

Then he clearly said that it was boring because it is VANILLA content,

he said nothing about it being boring because it is vanilla plus content and no one had any cleave, therefore the tank always pulled only one mob and this resulted in the DDs and the Heal literally doing nothing, so this part speaks FOR changes towards classes and not against + gnomeregan is a long ass dungeons and it is super boring if the pace is 1 mob pulls.

He said every dungeon has been scuffed because people go AFK every dungeon. lol. On Turtle, have you noticed people going AFK in normal dungeons??
He never made the complaint that people were going AFK in Vanilla dungeons on his Turtle WoW series. The classes are more like Vanilla, the dungeons are Vanilla.. . . yet no AFK?
Keep in mind that the subscription and concurrent player numbers stagnated with the release of WotLK. They went up all through Vanilla and TBC, but stagnated in WotLK then steadily declined in every expansion after that. Just having something "NEW" is not "BETTER".

Think about it.

How do you know that "everyone basically becomes OP"? Have you played there? If yes, do you have any prove?
Looks like you make up assumptions again, your credibility sinks with every post you make.

I linked the timestamp of Hunter talents. Vanilla Plus made a lot of changes; I haven't played on it but powercreep is how every server I find works. The devs mention making Talents much more powerful and base abilities a bit weaker; hence high scaling.

My credibility is fine.

The part where he speaks about the new survival tree: He seemed pretty excited about all of it. Yes he called some of it OP, but could he playtest it? No, he couldnt! And even if it turns out OP at the beginning, it can be tweaked and should be if it was!

It's just a bad design philosophy that appeals to no one.
Ascension is the extreme that people who like that, will go to. Much of the changes people make make it more like Ascension -> random ability changes. There's no real middle ground between "immersive, weighty RPG" and "mess-around time killer with no importance placed on balance or RPG".

His last video of V+ because of those reasons? How do you know, did he tell you? Again, do you have any prove?

He made no second video for 6 months up to the present, so there must be a lack of motivation.
If you think about the big picture of what motivates players to choose one way of playing or one server over another, it's because they're motivated by different things. Yet they still want an MMO and try new stuff out. Some want Ascension style Roullette, others want individual significance.

Individual significance is Vanilla. Everyone getting abilities and buffed up is Retail. WotLK is "the best" according to people yet the game stagnated and died with WotLK and compounded by following expansions.

And one more thing to disprove your argument even more: I follow Mcdoubles for quite some time now, I know what kind of content he makes, he is doing mainly ascension ( I have a lot of playtime on this too) content, a server known for its extreme variety on builds (some of them are extremely OP) and extremely fast paced leveling experience (mostly dungeon grind), and I think that it is save to say that ascension is his favorite server, atleast if we consider the amount of content he made with this server. And ascension couldnt be further away from the vanilla experience you adore so much.

I've compared two vanilla servers.

Honestly I wonder if Ascension has a deal with him lol.

[Thorgaaz]

Ok, lets say we switch specs... How do we do it? Shaman doesnt have Plate or AOE Taunt. Also no Survival CD like Shieldwall. So there is a lot of Work to do. I Think some Kind of Spirit form, (you become see-through and all dmg is reduced would be cool. Instead of Stormstrike he gets the Shielwall-like ability. And instead of Windfury Weapon some kind of painful weapon. (slight dot, lots of aggro)
At least thats my suggestion.

Next Problem, there is no Gear for Tank-Shami. Maybe a Talent which increases HP equil to your Int or something?

[Ghola]

or make dps shaman viable before a meme of a meme

not gonna split hairs on the definition of viable but chugging mana pots for mediocre damage is not engaging gameplay


every fucking tank shaman in discord talks about how they tanked brd or strat ud like its a fucking accomplishment, pretty sure nearly every spec in the game can do that

[Vladis]

I am really hoping that the teased patch 1.16.4 will bring some additional class tweaks :-)