Classes are Boring and to play them is a chore

[Markuis]

I haven't played much of this game but I know what you're doing. You're trying to force a playstyle that contradicts the class identity. Some people want to hunt so they go Hunter. If you want to go Warrior... then go Warrior. Rogue has throwing weapons as well; you can roll Rogue.
If anything needs to change its to add more class questing for flavor and some more long-form content for hunters lol.

What class identity? The spec has no identity other than being a meme spec. Buffing those specs and making them viable is a good thing that expands the class indentity.

If I may, here are my suggestions. I was discussing this earlier with other fellow turtles how to make melee hunter more fun. Given we now have flurry for melee attacks and Wolf Aspect it would be awesome to implement:

1. AP scaling for Mongoose Bite and Counterattack.
2. Implement this bleed Lacerate spell.
3. Under Wolf Aspect make MB and Counterattack to proc from offensive actions like player/pet crits or dots from Lacerate.
4. Tweak Survival Trap mastery talent such that dps flame and explo traps are usable in combat.

Basically make Rexxar not a meme spec.

I really like this changes as I like the ones suggested by Garish.

The traps, if not usable in combat, aren't worth the talent points as you are only going to use them once per fight, and become a very weak skill if you consider that the enemy has to move to the trap, something you don't control in a raid/party. But a talent could fix that so that the only spec getting the buff is the worst hunter spec.

About raptor strike, mongoose and counterattack, yeah, one has like 6 secs cd -invest 5 talent points to make it 5 secs cd, plus no scaling,- and the other two can only be used if X condition is met, and it requires you tanking, something the pet should be doing. So there is to decide if the pet should tank or if the hunter should, and balance around it (imo its not a good thing considering its not a tanking class/spec). But using them when the pet does X or the hunter does Y (crits, after certain number of attacks, a bleed is used on the enemy) is also interesting.

Another possibility could be to boost the allies of the hunter by using his spells. He is not a brute as a warrior could be, he would expose weak points of the target for his allies, debuffing him, or boosting the allies directly.

And a few words for the turtle team: people is discussing about how to improve the classes because they want to try new specs, and that is a thing because the changes made to the classes showed its possible! In other words, its a consequence of the success of the last patch. Congrats!!

[Vampin5]

Probably the majority of players choose to play here because they actually read what Turtle's vision was. Playing "outdated" classes is the appeal. A ton of Additional changes, even just qol, wouldn't be a big hit as that defeats the purpose of the server. I would think you would naturally just go play the type of server that you mentioned instead of here if that is what you're looking for.

[Svanhildr]

I hate this idea. If you want more in-depth classes, go to one of the servers you mentioned and leave Turtle WoW out of it. They've already tweaked the classes enough.

[Sapiverenus]

What class identity? The spec has no identity other than being a meme spec. Buffing those specs and making them viable is a good thing that expands the class indentity.

The class -- not the spec. You're trying to turn them into a different flavored warrior or rogue. That's called "white washing"; as in, you want to make everything fit your keyboard warrior playstyle. If you want basic DPS then it's marksman or beast, as far as I'm aware.

I really like this changes as I like the ones suggested by Garish.

It's already a strong class. You are too focused on competitive raiding or something. Hunter is about scrappiness. Boosting their melee damage and scaling removes that necessity; removes the reward for preparation as well; and turns them bland and 'white washed' like people are trying to do. It turns "Hunter" into "Rogue with Kitty".

It's not good game design. It's not more immersive, engaging, or unique. It's just people looking for a dopamine spike.

If you want to play rogue; then do so. Maybe you like Hunter but you just aren't playing it to its full capacity? Or maybe you don't like the world and its lore? Or maybe you think the people playing are anti-social and mercenary so you focus on the single-player 'mechanics'?

And a few words for the turtle team: people is discussing about how to improve the classes because they want to try new specs, and that is a thing because the changes made to the classes showed its possible! In other words, its a consequence of the success of the last patch. Congrats!!

I hope Turtle devs don't fall for this social manipulation lol.

[Sapiverenus]

We can clearly see that you havent played much, the survival hunter is bad right now.
You say it is hybrid and that isnt true, it is ranged but worse than marksman.
Your melee attacks dont scale and the deadzone makes it impossible to switch between melee and ranged.

And btw. if you want to play a only ranged hunter, go on, we dont try to stop you, in fact we only want to expand on the class fantasy ppl have


And btw. dont assume that we try to force something onto anything or anyone, THIS is a suggestion!

"We" lol. Get real.

When you try and act like the version of the game you want wouldn't affect how it's played or the user experience, it's manipulative. No one is saying you're holding people hostage. But you're trying to influence the devs to compromise and I have to type a well thought out and well written response or the devs will think there is no opposition to your suggestion.
With that in mind, a suggestion is taxing and usually a waste of everyone's time.

Changes should be more thoughtful than "give me big dick damage and hybrid adaptability at the same time".

I've played probably 450 hours of WoW in my lifetime and have played on this server for about 50 hours. I played the Undead Hunter for about 35 hours. I say I'm new because it's level 20 something.

When I recently got Wing Clip I could auto/concussive at range for an opener, do range stuff, kite a bit if I want, then do a Raptor strike and Wing Clip back out of range with a 'sticky' long range melee before about reaching the Shot/Sting range.

In other words: you're full of it.

Your class fantasy is to power trip on a free game then burnout and play a new game or get people to stroke your ego.


In cases where the enemy has charge or some way of keeping you in range, you can do decent damage thanks to survival hunter abilities, and Wing Clip out of their at some point. You can then Concussive at range for another slow, but with chance to stun (as Survival Hunter).

You're delusional about Hunter if you think there is a massive problem, and whatever problem you're raising an alarm for is not obvious; if there is one.

[Venytas]

We can clearly see that you havent played much, the survival hunter is bad right now.
You say it is hybrid and that isnt true, it is ranged but worse than marksman.
Your melee attacks dont scale and the deadzone makes it impossible to switch between melee and ranged.

And btw. if you want to play a only ranged hunter, go on, we dont try to stop you, in fact we only want to expand on the class fantasy ppl have


And btw. dont assume that we try to force something onto anything or anyone, THIS is a suggestion!

"We" lol. Get real.

When you try and act like the version of the game you want wouldn't affect how it's played or the user experience, it's manipulative. No one is saying you're holding people hostage. But you're trying to influence the devs to compromise and I have to type a well thought out and well written response or the devs will think there is no opposition to your suggestion.
With that in mind, a suggestion is taxing and usually a waste of everyone's time.

Changes should be more thoughtful than "give me big dick damage and hybrid adaptability at the same time".

I've played probably 450 hours of WoW in my lifetime and have played on this server for about 50 hours. I played the Undead Hunter for about 35 hours. I say I'm new because it's level 20 something.

When I recently got Wing Clip I could auto/concussive at range for an opener, do range stuff, kite a bit if I want, then do a Raptor strike and Wing Clip back out of range with a 'sticky' long range melee before about reaching the Shot/Sting range.

In other words: you're full of it.

Your class fantasy is to power trip on a free game then burnout and play a new game or get people to stroke your ego.


In cases where the enemy has charge or some way of keeping you in range, you can do decent damage thanks to survival hunter abilities, and Wing Clip out of their at some point. You can then Concussive at range for another slow, but with chance to stun (as Survival Hunter).

You're delusional about Hunter if you think there is a massive problem, and whatever problem you're raising an alarm for is not obvious; if there is one.

And again you just showed that you clearly have no idea about this game.
450 hours? let me tell you that propably 80% of the players here have more hours than that, even I should have more than that, and I am on the low end of playtime.

What you try to do right now is to paint me as the bad guy here, who is narcissistic and only want his oppinion to matter. You seem to only work with defamation because the other things you pointed out sprung from ignorance.
Do you even know what aspect of the wolf does on this server here? It disables your ranged capabilitys.
So, dont tell me or other players what the survival hunter is if you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

[Vladis]

I dont understand why some people attack other players for trying to make some underrated specs more viable. There is no intention to alter other playstyles and force someone to do/play something they do not want to. There are objectively some specs in classic that were designed just poorly and private servers have capabilities to change it for the better and actually to make the game more fun.

For example I dont understand how making melee hunter at least minimally viable and playable makes the game worse. People can still play BM/MM ranged, MM/SURV ranged or even SURV/BM ranged, nobody is taking this away or has an intention to do so. Making one more spec combination - melee BM/SURV - viable, given we now have AoTW and flurry, can only be a good thing. It brings something new and interesting and may lure more people to play here. It is also connected to Lore (Rexxar) and can be actually fun to play. I still do not see any downsides to this.

[Markuis]

I completely agree... It's just making a good game even better. And there is no need to change what already works. We DON'T want the spec to be OP outdpsing every other class. We want it for flavour and RP, and above all, to have fun playing the game.

[Sapiverenus]

And again you just showed that you clearly have no idea about this game.
450 hours? let me tell you that propably 80% of the players here have more hours than that, even I should have more than that, and I am on the low end of playtime.

What you try to do right now is to paint me as the bad guy here, who is narcissistic and only want his oppinion to matter. You seem to only work with defamation because the other things you pointed out sprung from ignorance.
Do you even know what aspect of the wolf does on this server here? It disables your ranged capabilitys.
So, dont tell me or other players what the survival hunter is if you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

You are the person that was indeed trying to "buff up" his opinion with how long you've played and how many others have played longer than I, and that there is a "We" that is against "You [me]" which is tied to there being some core playerbase that knows better than I.

There's nothing I've painted that's inaccurate here.

Again: You want to turn Hunter into an OP class that has superior ranged and superior melee power, while also getting a second very effective DPS/CC/Tank (pet).
I've already elaborated on a melee/ranged hybrid damage rotation that Survival Hunters use and any hunter can use, but you haven't addressed it yet.

Tell me why the game should be white washed so you can play a Hunter without having to use a core part of the class -- a ranged weapon. Why should the game lose character and distinction so you and others can play a true melee Hunter.

Why do you want to square up and fight as a Hunter instead of just rolling Rogue or Warrior when it detracts from the game.

I wasn't sure what Aspect of the Wolf did besides boost melee damage, but turning off your ranged isn't a big deal when it's on a GCD of what --.8 seconds? Aspects are on a shorter GCD compared to other spells. And Auto-Shot is off-GCD meaning you can do raptor strike, wing clip, melee, and switch to Hawk then Auto-Shot some point after that or shoot a sting/shot like Arcane if you require more distance and time to run first, before pulling a 180 while jumping to do an Auto when you land.
This is just me saying there is already an existing melee/ranged hybrid damage rotation that Survival Hunters can use and is UNIQUE compared to Marksman and Beast AS IT IS.

You are being dishonest if you think turning off Ranged for a GCD is a big deal when you can't use your ranged in melee anyway lol.

[Sapiverenus]

I dont understand why some people attack other players for trying to make some underrated specs more viable.

If there's no opposition then the devs will likely be persuaded. These suggestions require a person to put in time and energy to counter, so there's some animosity. If you think it's excessive then stop taxing people's time and energy by making suggestions for something that's already been buffed on a "Vanilla+" server. There's more to the game than classes and you can trivialize content with improper power scale and dynamics.

Making one more spec combination - melee BM/SURV - viable, given we now have AoTW and flurry, can only be a good thing.

Survival has already gotten AoTW and Flurry and are just greedy and calloused at this point.

It brings something new and interesting and may lure more people to play here.

Manipulative. Why not turn every Vanilla server into WotLK or Retail?

Saying something is unviable after buffs is not "in good faith". This entire topic is for charlatans.

[Venytas]

And again you just showed that you clearly have no idea about this game.
450 hours? let me tell you that propably 80% of the players here have more hours than that, even I should have more than that, and I am on the low end of playtime.

What you try to do right now is to paint me as the bad guy here, who is narcissistic and only want his oppinion to matter. You seem to only work with defamation because the other things you pointed out sprung from ignorance.
Do you even know what aspect of the wolf does on this server here? It disables your ranged capabilitys.
So, dont tell me or other players what the survival hunter is if you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

You are the person that was indeed trying to "buff up" his opinion with how long you've played and how many others have played longer than I, and that there is a "We" that is against "You [me]" which is tied to there being some core playerbase that knows better than I.

There's nothing I've painted that's inaccurate here.

Again: You want to turn Hunter into an OP class that has superior ranged and superior melee power, while also getting a second very effective DPS/CC/Tank (pet).
I've already elaborated on a melee/ranged hybrid damage rotation that Survival Hunters use and any hunter can use, but you haven't addressed it yet.

Tell me why the game should be white washed so you can play a Hunter without having to use a core part of the class -- a ranged weapon. Why should the game lose character and distinction so you and others can play a true melee Hunter.

Why do you want to square up and fight as a Hunter instead of just rolling Rogue or Warrior when it detracts from the game.

I wasn't sure what Aspect of the Wolf did besides boost melee damage, but turning off your ranged isn't a big deal when it's on a GCD of what --.8 seconds? Aspects are on a shorter GCD compared to other spells. And Auto-Shot is off-GCD meaning you can do raptor strike, wing clip, melee, and switch to Hawk then Auto-Shot some point after that or shoot a sting/shot like Arcane if you require more distance and time to run first, before pulling a 180 while jumping to do an Auto when you land.
This is just me saying there is already an existing melee/ranged hybrid damage rotation that Survival Hunters can use and is UNIQUE compared to Marksman and Beast AS IT IS.

You are being dishonest if you think turning off Ranged for a GCD is a big deal when you can't use your ranged in melee anyway lol.

You know what, I have absolutely no interest in arguing with ppl like you anymore, you completely miss the point of this post, so one last little text.

No one wants to make hunter OP, we just want survival to be viable and fun - it isnt right now, and players agree with me on that, it is a gimmick for BM and MM - I think more than half of the survival abilitys cant be used in combat and like the rest needs a parry or dodge proc. No one who wants to play a fully funktional character, except for RPers go full into the survival tree because it is just bad - 5 talent points for 1 sec CD reduction of the worst ability this game has is literally just a meme.
I dont want to dismiss the core part of the hunter, in fact Id like to see a shift in importance by choosing which specc you use, like ranged > melee in MM but ranged < melee in survival, like you see in other classes where you can choose how you play.

And one last little thing, you are using "white washed" wrong, atleast try to hide that you are severly hurt by twitter.

[Thorgaaz]

You Totally right. Isnt vanilla is not really an Argument against it.

However i just think Shamans... can really do a lot. And I mean a LOT on their own already. And different from Palas or even Druids they can do it very well and all at once. The Totems are a huge Toolkit, Ranged DD, Melee DD, great Heal... honestly add Tank to that and you never need another Class in the Horde. Isnt that an little much?

No Problem with Melee Hunter though, even So i would like the no-Pet Sniper even more.
3 Trees. PetHunter, Archer, Forestwalker(melee) I think that would be great.

[Sleg]

You Totally right. Isnt vanilla is not really an Argument against it.

However i just think Shamans... can really do a lot. And I mean a LOT on their own already. And different from Palas or even Druids they can do it very well and all at once. The Totems are a huge Toolkit, Ranged DD, Melee DD, great Heal... honestly add Tank to that and you never need another Class in the Horde. Isnt that an little much?

No Problem with Melee Hunter though, even So i would like the no-Pet Sniper even more.
3 Trees. PetHunter, Archer, Forestwalker(melee) I think that would be great.

Hey,
Well, You see, Druids have the same options (tank, rdd, mdd, healer), though it is not that each player plays Druid. Pally has all 3 roles and it's fine.
But even in case if dev team would think that it's too many roles for Shaman, i'd suggest to remove mdd option and just leave rdd, tank and healer. Shaman idea is to help the tribe, so he should be able to heal and defend

[Akalix]

Remember to keep discussion civil. We're all here looking to improve the Turtle WoW experience :)

[Thorgaaz]

You Totally right. Isnt vanilla is not really an Argument against it.

However i just think Shamans... can really do a lot. And I mean a LOT on their own already. And different from Palas or even Druids they can do it very well and all at once. The Totems are a huge Toolkit, Ranged DD, Melee DD, great Heal... honestly add Tank to that and you never need another Class in the Horde. Isnt that an little much?

No Problem with Melee Hunter though, even So i would like the no-Pet Sniper even more.
3 Trees. PetHunter, Archer, Forestwalker(melee) I think that would be great.

Hey,
Well, You see, Druids have the same options (tank, rdd, mdd, healer), though it is not that each player plays Druid. Pally has all 3 roles and it's fine.
But even in case if dev team would think that it's too many roles for Shaman, i'd suggest to remove mdd option and just leave rdd, tank and healer. Shaman idea is to help the tribe, so he should be able to heal and defend

Yeah, but Druid needs to switch their Form and honestly they are not that great at least as dd. Lets be honest most hightier raiddruids are Heal. They also dont have the Totem Toolkit. restoring Mana and one Debuffremoval. Maybe Aura when Moonkin, but thats it. Shamantotems have Windfury procs, remove Fear, resistances, Heal, Manaregg, remove debuffs and more.

But ok, everything can be balanced. So right now Shaman skill Ranged dps, Melee dps or Heal. Which tree you want to replace with Tank? Since literally every other class needs to skill it too i would say that is Fair. Or do you want to scuff it into the Melee dps Tree? (because Druids) I mean Palas and even Warriors needs to decide too.

[Sapiverenus]

And one last little thing, you are using "white washed" wrong, atleast try to hide that you are severly hurt by twitter.

Don't grasp at straws. You want to compromise a core part of a class so you can have yet another melee class. PLAY A WARRIOR OR ROGUE. You want to white wash the game so that there's nothing UNIQUE about any class; to diminish the point of CHOOSING a class. That's white washing -> turning everything into one thing. It refers to bleach. I don't even use Twitter ffs.

You bring up weaknesses of the talent tree yet you think most classes are boring anyway. Can you tell me why you don't play retail? I don't dislike retail but I haven't played much of it; yet it seems like something you'd rather be playing.

A tsunami of bad suggestions isn't the right way about it, and I don't know who you're talking to about class balance but players talking down a spec doesn't mean much. Raid power is part of the game but certainly isn't all of it; Wyvern sting has more of a use for PvP a la the SURVIVAL theme; not the Melee theme.

The only thing out of everything that might be OK is changing the .2 second talent to .3.

99% of suggestions are just theme-breaking.

[Vladis]

And one last little thing, you are using "white washed" wrong, atleast try to hide that you are severly hurt by twitter.

Don't grasp at straws. You want to compromise a core part of a class so you can have yet another melee class. PLAY A WARRIOR OR ROGUE. You want to white wash the game so that there's nothing UNIQUE about any class; to diminish the point of CHOOSING a class. That's white washing -> turning everything into one thing. It refers to bleach. I don't even use Twitter ffs.

You bring up weaknesses of the talent tree yet you think most classes are boring anyway. Can you tell me why you don't play retail? I don't dislike retail but I haven't played much of it; yet it seems like something you'd rather be playing.

A tsunami of bad suggestions isn't the right way about it, and I don't know who you're talking to about class balance but players talking down a spec doesn't mean much. Raid power is part of the game but certainly isn't all of it; Wyvern sting has more of a use for PvP a la the SURVIVAL theme; not the Melee theme.

The only thing out of everything that might be OK is changing the .2 second talent to .3.

99% of suggestions are just theme-breaking.

I still do not understand why you are so upset. Nobody here wants to shut down ranged MM/Surv, ranged BM/Surv or ranged MM/BM. In fact nobody here wants to limit any other spec or playstyle. Nobody also wants to make melee survival an OP spec. People here just present suggestions to some really badly designed specs in order to make them fun and viable so they can better enjoy the custom content here.

After the last class changes some players saw that changes to some classes were good (I for example, very liked the changes to Survival). Given that Survival tree basicaly has only melee abilities (RS, MB, WC, Counterattack and Traps) and Wyvern sting is the only range spell (in fact it is the last talent in the talent tree) I really think that melee aspect should be encouraged more. We are not proposing that encouraging melee playstyle should worsen ranged playstyle and hunter fantasy. It is not our intention. We just would like to expand on the latest class changes and push the melee playstyle a bit further. I think it deserves a chance.

Another example is tanking. The best tank is Warrior and many raids and dungeons prefer warriors. Druids and prot palas have been made more viable on this server and, in fact, better but they still lack behind prot tanks. I think it would be really good to buff bears and prot palas a bit more so they are on par with wariors. This would broaden the range of tanks available and improve the engame content for many players.

My last example would be enha shamans. Enha shaman gameplay is basically "put down totems and autoattack and pray for WF procs". If enha shamans could get mana reductions from melee crits (tweaking elemental focus talent in the elemental tree) suddenly they would be able to throw some chain lighting and aoe totems and not be out of mana on the second pack in dungeons. This would not worsen gameplay of any other spec, it would do the opposite. It would help other players in group content because getting an enha shaman in a group would be better now. And enha players could press some more buttons and actually enjoy the content more.

[Sapiverenus]

After the last class changes some players saw that changes to some classes were good (I for example, very liked the changes to Survival). Given that Survival tree basicaly has only melee abilities (RS, MB, WC, Counterattack and Traps) and Wyvern sting is the only range spell (in fact it is the last talent in the talent tree) I really think that melee aspect should be encouraged more. We are not proposing that encouraging melee playstyle should worsen ranged playstyle and hunter fantasy. It is not our intention. We just would like to expand on the latest class changes and push the melee playstyle a bit further. I think it deserves a chance.

Another example is tanking. The best tank is Warrior and many raids and dungeons prefer warriors. Druids and prot palas have been made more viable on this server and, in fact, better but they still lack behind prot tanks. I think it would be really good to buff bears and prot palas a bit more so they are on par with wariors. This would broaden the range of tanks available and improve the engame content for many players.

My last example would be enha shamans. Enha shaman gameplay is basically "put down totems and autoattack and pray for WF procs". If enha shamans could get mana reductions from melee crits (tweaking elemental focus talent in the elemental tree) suddenly they would be able to throw some chain lighting and aoe totems and not be out of mana on the second pack in dungeons. This would not worsen gameplay of any other spec, it would do the opposite. It would help other players in group content because getting an enha shaman in a group would be better now. And enha players could press some more buttons and actually enjoy the content more.

If you don't understand what I'm saying then think a bit longer about the consequences of trivializing the classes by white washing them with similar mechanics and abilities, rather than thinking of a suggestion that is unique to a class and differentiates it from others.

I don't understand why you're talking about this melee spec likes it's a person that "just needs a chance". It's a bad idea and there's no reason for it to exist. Get real.

You can say all that you may about class balance but it doesn't make it true. While you say Prot Warrior is an OP tank, I hear others say Fury with secondary in Prot Warrior was THE tank. In every game I hear people complain about balance and I will need a lot more than some random person's sayso to believe one way or another.

Warriors in general were pretty good end game and Turtle seems to have done something about that or hope to soon; I don't know I haven't played Warrior to end-game and haven't seen any videos on it. But I'm not relying on a group of people complaining to believe one thing or another lol.

Stop acting like it doesn't affect the game or players. Please. It is meant to be a game WORLD not a solo experience or creative mode in Minecraft. A bit of dignity should be assumed. No one wants a low effort meme game where a level 30 warrior loses to a level 30 melee Hunter that never has to gain distance and switch to ranged because some people kept "asking politely" for a power creep. gtfo with that BS.

Melee Hunter isn't even a thing. It's a meme. Protection Paladin is a thing. Bear tank is mostly a thing and honestly shouldn't be much of one; it's a subspec of a spec and is just a bear. Not everything in life should fall into the order of Tank, Healer, DPS like some God's Commandment.

It's lazy and poor game design. Why the hell would you hop onto a Vanilla+ server that is trying to be conservative with their choices instead of going to another server?

Shamans I don't know in particular, but lack of mana pots, lack of spirit stacking such as from Well Fed, and whatever else might be more the issue than Shamans being UP. I don't know I haven't played them till end-game.

[Garish]

And again you just showed that you clearly have no idea about this game.
450 hours? let me tell you that propably 80% of the players here have more hours than that, even I should have more than that, and I am on the low end of playtime.

What you try to do right now is to paint me as the bad guy here, who is narcissistic and only want his oppinion to matter. You seem to only work with defamation because the other things you pointed out sprung from ignorance.
Do you even know what aspect of the wolf does on this server here? It disables your ranged capabilitys.
So, dont tell me or other players what the survival hunter is if you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

Again: You want to turn Hunter into an OP class that has superior ranged and superior melee power, while also getting a second very effective DPS/CC/Tank (pet).
I've already elaborated on a melee/ranged hybrid damage rotation that Survival Hunters use and any hunter can use, but you haven't addressed it yet.

Tell me why the game should be white washed so you can play a Hunter without having to use a core part of the class -- a ranged weapon. Why should the game lose character and distinction so you and others can play a true melee Hunter.

1.no one want to make hunter a op class

2. rexxar didn't use a ranged weapon tho.

[Sapiverenus]

1.no one want to make hunter a op class

2. rexxar didn't use a ranged weapon tho.

He's half-ogre and an NPC. In-game, Orc Hunters can rage and dual wield as it is. Base weapon damage is decent in WoW, high agi and attack power items and crit talents means more damage, Aspect of the Wolf is now a thing, pets do good damage, Deterrence is really good, Counterattack is good. It just doesn't lend itself to a pure melee build.

Melee Hunter shouldn't be anywhere close to ideal.

You don't seem to get what I'm saying here though; Hunter should be a Hunter not a Rexxar half-ogre half-orc with-a-big-bear class. You want warrior with a big bear.

Giving classes every single way to play just blurs all the lines and turns it all into a mush of blurry definition. You don't seem to recognize the distinction and definition that people enjoy.
You might not understand how you enjoy a game where each class closely corresponds to its ARCHETYPICAL CLASS IDEAL when performing at its best either; I don't know. Hunters shoot. If your gameplay doesn't include shooting then it's not an Archetypical Hunter.

It's just bullshit when every class has a Warrior spec. The way Hunters can play melee is more "in and out". Stop suggesting "stand and deliver" changes to Hunter. Hunters don't get to be Warriors.

There's not that many people willing to play the game socially to begin with and it's mostly designed to be played solo or with randoms, so what's the point of trying to stand out from a crowd of 1 occasionally 5 lol? Random Class powercreep changes are least important at this point.

EDIT: Game needs more reason to group to level and quest, not melee hunter so they can be jack-of-all-trades special.

[Talenne]

Putting my two cents in, I actually agree with Sapivernus that the ultimate core of a Hunter is being a ranged physical dps that uses ranged weapons more extensively than other classes. I've nothing against a melee playstyle like on retail but I just don't see the appeal of it myself.

Personally, I'd have to know what the original developers intended for Survival spec, I do know Kevin Jordan admitted that the Holy talent tree for Paladin failed to live up to the intended fantasy of the class, which was meant to be a melee class with back up healing support rather than a clothy bot spamming flash lights and doing nothing else other than refresh buffs. (Something of which retail also managed to fix by bringing it more into being a melee healer thanks to the Holy Power system.)

It's a big ask, but at least there I'd like some change to Paladin to try to bring it into its original intended playstyle but I don't know what could be done without upsetting the purist type of players who love spamming casted heals in the background.

[Sapiverenus]

Putting my two cents in, I actually agree with Sapivernus that the ultimate core of a Hunter is being a ranged physical dps that uses ranged weapons more extensively than other classes. I've nothing against a melee playstyle like on retail but I just don't see the appeal of it myself.

Personally, I'd have to know what the original developers intended for Survival spec, I do know Kevin Jordan admitted that the Holy talent tree for Paladin failed to live up to the intended fantasy of the class, which was meant to be a melee class with back up healing support rather than a clothy bot spamming flash lights and doing nothing else other than refresh buffs. (Something of which retail also managed to fix by bringing it more into being a melee healer thanks to the Holy Power system.)

It's a big ask, but at least there I'd like some change to Paladin to try to bring it into its original intended playstyle but I don't know what could be done without upsetting the purist type of players who love spamming casted heals in the background.

Thanks.

Paladins step on Cleric toes much; I agree that Paladins should be a utility melee and having two holy casters is a real stretch.

[Sleg]

You Totally right. Isnt vanilla is not really an Argument against it.

However i just think Shamans... can really do a lot. And I mean a LOT on their own already. And different from Palas or even Druids they can do it very well and all at once. The Totems are a huge Toolkit, Ranged DD, Melee DD, great Heal... honestly add Tank to that and you never need another Class in the Horde. Isnt that an little much?

No Problem with Melee Hunter though, even So i would like the no-Pet Sniper even more.
3 Trees. PetHunter, Archer, Forestwalker(melee) I think that would be great.

Hey,
Well, You see, Druids have the same options (tank, rdd, mdd, healer), though it is not that each player plays Druid. Pally has all 3 roles and it's fine.
But even in case if dev team would think that it's too many roles for Shaman, i'd suggest to remove mdd option and just leave rdd, tank and healer. Shaman idea is to help the tribe, so he should be able to heal and defend

Yeah, but Druid needs to switch their Form and honestly they are not that great at least as dd. Lets be honest most hightier raiddruids are Heal. They also dont have the Totem Toolkit. restoring Mana and one Debuffremoval. Maybe Aura when Moonkin, but thats it. Shamantotems have Windfury procs, remove Fear, resistances, Heal, Manaregg, remove debuffs and more.

But ok, everything can be balanced. So right now Shaman skill Ranged dps, Melee dps or Heal. Which tree you want to replace with Tank? Since literally every other class needs to skill it too i would say that is Fair. Or do you want to scuff it into the Melee dps Tree? (because Druids) I mean Palas and even Warriors needs to decide too.

Thing is that Shaman in raid actually is same as Druid - he is raid healer. Range dps is not bad, but has some mana issues. And melee dps is accepted to raid only if he has an axe reducing boss resistance to magic
So, as i've mentioned earlier, i'd remove melee dps and put pure Tank spec instead of it. In this case if someone wants to play melee dps thay might look into other class, and Shaman would have all 3 roles - same as his ally analog Pally (except that Pally has melee dps, and Shaman has ranged dps).

[Sapiverenus]

Hey,
Well, You see, Druids have the same options (tank, rdd, mdd, healer), though it is not that each player plays Druid. Pally has all 3 roles and it's fine.
But even in case if dev team would think that it's too many roles for Shaman, i'd suggest to remove mdd option and just leave rdd, tank and healer. Shaman idea is to help the tribe, so he should be able to heal and defend

Yeah, but Druid needs to switch their Form and honestly they are not that great at least as dd. Lets be honest most hightier raiddruids are Heal. They also dont have the Totem Toolkit. restoring Mana and one Debuffremoval. Maybe Aura when Moonkin, but thats it. Shamantotems have Windfury procs, remove Fear, resistances, Heal, Manaregg, remove debuffs and more.

But ok, everything can be balanced. So right now Shaman skill Ranged dps, Melee dps or Heal. Which tree you want to replace with Tank? Since literally every other class needs to skill it too i would say that is Fair. Or do you want to scuff it into the Melee dps Tree? (because Druids) I mean Palas and even Warriors needs to decide too.

Thing is that Shaman in raid actually is same as Druid - he is raid healer. Range dps is not bad, but has some mana issues. And melee dps is accepted to raid only if he has an axe reducing boss resistance to magic
So, as i've mentioned earlier, i'd remove melee dps and put pure Tank spec instead of it. In this case if someone wants to play melee dps thay might look into other class, and Shaman would have all 3 roles - same as his ally analog Pally (except that Pally has melee dps, and Shaman has ranged dps).

Druid seems decent for raids like Onyxia with additional units swarming the place at intervals. Raid mechanics determine the usefulness of Druids in a raid. That's just how it is. They have flexibility that is easily useful in PvP for sure.

Please stop fixating on class power. Focus on the world of the game instead; classes are fine. The shared experience is more important than solo competition with others lol.

[Sleg]

Yeah, but Druid needs to switch their Form and honestly they are not that great at least as dd. Lets be honest most hightier raiddruids are Heal. They also dont have the Totem Toolkit. restoring Mana and one Debuffremoval. Maybe Aura when Moonkin, but thats it. Shamantotems have Windfury procs, remove Fear, resistances, Heal, Manaregg, remove debuffs and more.

But ok, everything can be balanced. So right now Shaman skill Ranged dps, Melee dps or Heal. Which tree you want to replace with Tank? Since literally every other class needs to skill it too i would say that is Fair. Or do you want to scuff it into the Melee dps Tree? (because Druids) I mean Palas and even Warriors needs to decide too.

Thing is that Shaman in raid actually is same as Druid - he is raid healer. Range dps is not bad, but has some mana issues. And melee dps is accepted to raid only if he has an axe reducing boss resistance to magic
So, as i've mentioned earlier, i'd remove melee dps and put pure Tank spec instead of it. In this case if someone wants to play melee dps thay might look into other class, and Shaman would have all 3 roles - same as his ally analog Pally (except that Pally has melee dps, and Shaman has ranged dps).

Druid seems decent for raids like Onyxia with additional units swarming the place at intervals. Raid mechanics determine the usefulness of Druids in a raid. That's just how it is. They have flexibility that is easily useful in PvP for sure.

Please stop fixating on class power. Focus on the world of the game instead; classes are fine. The shared experience is more important than solo competition with others lol.

Hm, taking in mind that i'm talking about removing dps spec and adding tank spec, it's quite hard for me to understand what do You mean by writing "stop fixating on class power"... also, i've mentioned that for me wow shaman is tribe wise and protector, so Shaman tank and healer spirit really fits the world
And the last spec - elemental - also fits the world as Thral was elemental

[Vladis]

Making underated and badly designed specs viable and fun to play actually makes them desirable for group content and increases their chances in participating in the "shared experience". If I decide to play enha now and not taking Nightall, I would have hard time participate in the engame content. I am just saying...(I know what I am saying from my own personal experience).

[Sapiverenus]

Hm, taking in mind that i'm talking about removing dps spec and adding tank spec, it's quite hard for me to understand what do You mean by writing "stop fixating on class power"... also, i've mentioned that for me wow shaman is tribe wise and protector, so Shaman tank and healer spirit really fits the world
And the last spec - elemental - also fits the world as Thral was elemental

If you use the rest of the line as context, I'm referring to your overall fixation on class power. I am suggesting you think about other aspects of the game that need more attention.

I don't have much input on Shaman specs but I do for Druid: stop fucking with it. Shapeshifting is unique and fits Druid. You try and mess with every class and I don't trust your input on any class.

Making underated and badly designed specs viable and fun to play actually makes them desirable for group content and increases their chances in participating in the "shared experience". If I decide to play enha now and not taking Nightall, I would have hard time participate in the engame content. I am just saying...(I know what I am saying from my own personal experience).

Anyone can have a poor experience with players choosing more 'focused' classes & specs that fall into the categories of DPS, Tank and Healer more neatly when forming a raid group.
Raid content should be a bit more 'tangled' and not boil down to one guy taking on a Dragon while a bunch of healers heal so hard there's a 5 ft green aura consistently emanating from the Designated Tank and a herd of Marksman Hunters, Mages and a Warlock deep DPS from behind the boss.

The issue isn't the class. These classes are meant to be flexible and thus not as singularly good at DPS, Tanking and Healing.

That's what they are and that's what you get. If all you care about is being the best stand-in-one-place-and DPS, Tank, or Heal; then you should play a class that's best at that. You wanted a flexible class that can adapt though.

If you think there's much of a social experience involved with raiding or the game in general, then you're wrong. If you recognize the problem with the "shared experience" of WoW in general, then we're on the same page. Give new or tuned mechanics to bosses such as more target switching and more spiteful strikes and ranged dps spite attacks, more add spawns, some unavoidable AoE. . . intelligent bosses that target healers, cloths in general. . . stacking healing reduction effects so tanks have to switch off and give aggro to a second tank that doesn' t have the stacking heal reduction (which resists dispels well). . . a shield that blocks off most healing from other players but still allows self-heal. . . ranged interrupt on healers that prevent them from healing anyone for 3 - 8 seconds. All of it could be fine tuned into a genuine brawl to the death instead of the somewhat boring static thing it is now.

I don't know much about Enhancement Shaman in general nor on Turtle, but if the smallest change can remedy the issue then that's that. It should mostly boil down to the fact that overly simple content doesn't bring out flexible class' strengths [Druid & Shaman]
You agree?

[Sleg]

Hm, taking in mind that i'm talking about removing dps spec and adding tank spec, it's quite hard for me to understand what do You mean by writing "stop fixating on class power"... also, i've mentioned that for me wow shaman is tribe wise and protector, so Shaman tank and healer spirit really fits the world
And the last spec - elemental - also fits the world as Thral was elemental

If you use the rest of the line as context, I'm referring to your overall fixation on class power. I am suggesting you think about other aspects of the game that need more attention.

I don't have much input on Shaman specs but I do for Druid: stop fucking with it. Shapeshifting is unique and fits Druid. You try and mess with every class and I don't trust your input on any class.

Druid is the only class i didn't play much, cause i don't like it and therefor i don't care about its fate. So i NEVER said to change it somehow. It's fine by me how it is now - for me it is just another player character that is able to shapeshift, what fits into wow experience.
Please, stop Your aggression on other chat participants. As for now Your reaction seems a bit overreacted... Or at least paste exact quote where You think incorret statement was written. Cause in the ones You quote i'm just saying that Shaman could be a tank. I'm mostly playing as a tank or a healer - i like those roles and think that according wow atmosphere Shaman tank idea fits well.

[Venytas]

At this point Sapiverenus must be trolling.
Dude is literally suggesting changes to EVERYTHING but at the same time hates us for suggesting changes to specific specs lol.
Also he accuses us for trying to make specs OP (feeding our power fantasy) and destroying the balance and identity of this game but at the same time says, that it is totally fine that a warrior tank is by far the best role for tanking and some classes should be shit in their designated role.

He clearly has no idea how a game, revolving around the "holy trinity" should be balanced.
No tank should heavily outperform another tank from a different class, same goes with every other role and class.

Balance in classes and roles ≠ No class and role identity

[Venytas]

Hm, taking in mind that i'm talking about removing dps spec and adding tank spec, it's quite hard for me to understand what do You mean by writing "stop fixating on class power"... also, i've mentioned that for me wow shaman is tribe wise and protector, so Shaman tank and healer spirit really fits the world
And the last spec - elemental - also fits the world as Thral was elemental

If you use the rest of the line as context, I'm referring to your overall fixation on class power. I am suggesting you think about other aspects of the game that need more attention.

I don't have much input on Shaman specs but I do for Druid: stop fucking with it. Shapeshifting is unique and fits Druid. You try and mess with every class and I don't trust your input on any class.

Druid is the only class i didn't play much, cause i don't like it and therefor i don't care about its fate. So i NEVER said to change it somehow. It's fine by me how it is now - for me it is just another player character that is able to shapeshift, what fits into wow experience.
Please, stop Your aggression on other chat participants. As for now Your reaction seems a bit overreacted... Or at least paste exact quote where You think incorret statement was written. Cause in the ones You quote i'm just saying that Shaman could be a tank. I'm mostly playing as a tank or a healer - i like those roles and think that according wow atmosphere Shaman tank idea fits well.

Many players want shaman tank.
Most players dont care because they dont play shaman.
Few players dont want shaman tank.
Ofcourse thats just my guess.

The easiest and best solution propably would be, if the twow team just made polls about stuff like that.

[Sleg]

If you use the rest of the line as context, I'm referring to your overall fixation on class power. I am suggesting you think about other aspects of the game that need more attention.

I don't have much input on Shaman specs but I do for Druid: stop fucking with it. Shapeshifting is unique and fits Druid. You try and mess with every class and I don't trust your input on any class.

Druid is the only class i didn't play much, cause i don't like it and therefor i don't care about its fate. So i NEVER said to change it somehow. It's fine by me how it is now - for me it is just another player character that is able to shapeshift, what fits into wow experience.
Please, stop Your aggression on other chat participants. As for now Your reaction seems a bit overreacted... Or at least paste exact quote where You think incorret statement was written. Cause in the ones You quote i'm just saying that Shaman could be a tank. I'm mostly playing as a tank or a healer - i like those roles and think that according wow atmosphere Shaman tank idea fits well.

Many players want shaman tank.
Most players dont care because they dont play shaman.
Few players dont want shaman tank.
Ofcourse thats just my guess.

The easiest and best solution propably would be, if the twow team just made polls about stuff like that.

That's a great idea to implement polls. I used to play on the server where after You login as a character poll appears looking same as chat with npc window. So, You read the suggestion and close the "chat" by selecting suitable option. That way each player would be able to provide his opinion without visiting web site or discord or smthng else. And options to reply could be like:
I'd like to have Shaman tank / melee Hunter / ...
I don't mind having Shamen tank / melee Hunter /...
I don't think it's good idea to have...
I hate idea to have Shaman tank / ...
So, each active server user could vote and Twow Team would know what community really wants.
Polls results could be displayed on forum, so, everyone knows where server is moving.

[Venytas]

That's a great idea to implement polls. I used to play on the server where after You login as a character poll appears looking same as chat with npc window. So, You read the suggestion and close the "chat" by selecting suitable option. That way each player would be able to provide his opinion without visiting web site or discord or smthng else. And options to reply could be like:
I'd like to have Shaman tank / melee Hunter / ...
I don't mind having Shamen tank / melee Hunter /...
I don't think it's good idea to have...
I hate idea to have Shaman tank / ...
So, each active server user could vote and Twow Team would know what community really wants.
Polls results could be displayed on forum, so, everyone knows where server is moving.

I like this approach, I thought about this sometimes while playing on another p-server.
I think it being ingame is the most important part,
because the opinions may vary from platform to platform (forum/discord and ingame).

Maybe one of us should open up a new thread for this suggestion lol.

[Phoenixphire]

Just seems like people have such vastly different views on what this server is/should be. I don't see an issue with improving bad specs, playstyles, or classes as long as they don't get homogenized and lose their unique identity. Is it not possible to add improvements to classes without turning this into retail or going overboard and making everyone do crazy dps and have the same kit?

That's just all I want, not so good specs and playstyles seeing some love that isn't over the top buffs and dmg increases or changes that destroy their unique feel. Give ret some more group support instead of more dmg, keep druid shapeshifting unique but maybe give them some more cool new abilities, let enh shaman's have an option to be okay off tanks, give arcane mages another unique ability to use. This DOESN'T have to "turn into retail" for us to have some new and exciting ways to experience the content does it? The recent class changes were an awesome step in the right direction and I would love to see more changes like the ones they added but for more play styles that didn't seem to get too much love. (ret, ele, survival, etc.)

Because at the end of the day, in my opinion, no matter how much good content is added to the game, if the classes aren't all fun, unique and rewarding. The amount of people who can truly enjoy that new content will be more limited than it could be.

[Tristfrukt]

I just think people need to get used to the idea that the class you want to play IS viable, not just optimal. And that is OK. Making everything work all the time is what made retail classes all feel the same.
It's a slippery slope.

In my opinion the best way is to look away from meters and parses. And also for party makers and raid leaders to accept lower performing specs. I mean it's not like any content is so hard you need an optimal raid composition. The route of making everything balanced is the wrong way. Like someone mentioned earlier, make the unique stuff more unique, so that your class is attractive in certain situations, if any changes is being made at all.

And another thing to consider is that the server started leaning towards RP, where performance is a non-issue in almost every aspect.

[Vladis]

I do agree with many points presented here and also disagree with some, but in overall, it is possible to make classes unique and at the same time tweak underated specs. I think that for example making prot palas and bears on par with warrior tanks, tweaking enha shamans so they are not one-button class anymore or encourage/buff survival melee playslyle to be fun and interesting in the end help class uniqueness, RP and player experience. Make better and broaden the range of what people can play also helps to enjoy the content.