Pally Buff durations from 5 > 30 min

[Sinrek]

You seem to be a vanilla enthusiast, WHY are you here? this is clearly a server that wants to expand on vanilla, no class on this server is vanilla anymore so WHY are you here if change is so damn bad?
You are just a sad, sad person who wants people to suffer just like you do, but there is one difference, you are a masochist.

And btw. try to be respectfull, even if the idea you support is garbage

When I started in October '18 on this server it was presented as a slower levelling, roleplaying, with new quests added all over the vanilla flavour server. This means they had plans to bring more depth to the already existing world, bringing quests that were either discarded or just unfinished.

For 2 and a half years I've been helping with reports on bugs, and missing stuff in quests and items … but then came wrath-cata-babies. No derogatory. I mean the time people used to play WoW. Guess what? It's that bloody breed that had a loud mouth with "add this, I want" and "add that, it's cool" so-called suggestions all over again.

Balance?
Naah, never heard of.
Class design?
Meh, it's boring, add s'more of those buffs, just like WotLK, plz!
PvP/PvE concerns on new skills?
LMAO its a carebear server, ded btw, screw that shit

Respectful? To those? Naah, never heard of. Respect should be earned, not granted.

To say that classes aren't vanilla anymore is sort of a stretch. Recent big patch talent changes brought some serious reworks though, that's made some classes even more OP. Angery priest noises.

With some analysis and PvP/PvE balance in mind with OG design intended for classes, it's still possible to bring some sort of balance to classes therefore flat increase of certain spells or abilities is just plain and lazy bad design, to begin with. Even OG Blizz never did that. I'm sure that devs would rather learn from mistakes instead of converting this server into a cash-grab milking project.

Regarding your rude assumption and asking for a respectful response … that's rich. Come back when you grow up.

[Sinrek]

petition to make druid thorns, shadow ward and dampen magic 5 min buffs.

fortitude, arcane int, mark 15 mins likee greater blessing.

then we wait for the storm of complaints once they got paladied

You forgot the mana cost nerf then. Bring some metrics instead of nonsense, please.

[Thol]

Loved Warcraft III, started playing WoW during the beta, experienced vanilla casually, never did raids back then, was too young and clueless, always loved WPvP (not ganking). Unlike most, I started disliking retail as soon as TBC, I didn't like Barbie and Ken joining the savage Horde, Space Goats coming from a galaxy far far away, flying and daily quests. I think we can fairly say that I'm a vanilla purist, so getting called a Cata baby is funny to me.

I've worked with the 5min blessings for more than a decade so I'm used to them, but still felt like doubling their duration wouldn't hurt vanilla spirit and would be fair, can double the duration of totems like Strength of Earth as well since you consider them mirror classes. It's not like asking for flying or instant teleport to dungeons, and yes I know the path to convenience is slippery and led to retail. And yet, features like tents and +30% XP War Mode were implemented even if they go against said spirit.

I agree with you on the fact that Paladins are (and should be imo) first and foremost a support class and that the hybrid tax should remain, it's true some Ret Paladins want to become the equals of Warriors but it shouldn't be imo, it would just inverse Warriors and Paladins positions. Velite/Laughadin does not want this, he's just trying to find a niche for them that could secure a raid spot for them. One idea I liked was to remove one of the current world buffs and add it as a talent deep in Ret tree (ex: Remove Songflower Serenade and add it to BoK, now at the bottom of Ret tree, Blessing of Kings Increases chance for a melee, ranged, or spell critical by 5% and all attributes by 10% for 5min. The conflict between totems and blessings make Paladins as a whole much less attractive to raid leaders currently.

On the topic of the class fantasy, one thing I find retail did right in recent years was making Holy Paladins more of a melee healer, I think it would be cool if the Paladin could heal from melee instead of staying back while wearing a dress and holding pretty flowers.

[Venytas]

You seem to be a vanilla enthusiast, WHY are you here? this is clearly a server that wants to expand on vanilla, no class on this server is vanilla anymore so WHY are you here if change is so damn bad?
You are just a sad, sad person who wants people to suffer just like you do, but there is one difference, you are a masochist.

And btw. try to be respectfull, even if the idea you support is garbage

When I started in October '18 on this server it was presented as a slower levelling, roleplaying, with new quests added all over the vanilla flavour server. This means they had plans to bring more depth to the already existing world, bringing quests that were either discarded or just unfinished.

For 2 and a half years I've been helping with reports on bugs, and missing stuff in quests and items … but then came wrath-cata-babies. No derogatory. I mean the time people used to play WoW. Guess what? It's that bloody breed that had a loud mouth with "add this, I want" and "add that, it's cool" so-called suggestions all over again.

Balance?
Naah, never heard of.
Class design?
Meh, it's boring, add s'more of those buffs, just like WotLK, plz!
PvP/PvE concerns on new skills?
LMAO its a carebear server, ded btw, screw that shit

Respectful? To those? Naah, never heard of. Respect should be earned, not granted.

To say that classes aren't vanilla anymore is sort of a stretch. Recent big patch talent changes brought some serious reworks though, that's made some classes even more OP. Angery priest noises.

With some analysis and PvP/PvE balance in mind with OG design intended for classes, it's still possible to bring some sort of balance to classes therefore flat increase of certain spells or abilities is just plain and lazy bad design, to begin with. Even OG Blizz never did that. I'm sure that devs would rather learn from mistakes instead of converting this server into a cash-grab milking project.

Regarding your rude assumption and asking for a respectful response … that's rich. Come back when you grow up.

We are asking for 30 minutes duration on similar buffs and you act like we want the jailor or quadruple agent sylvanas + 6000 dailys and resses on every class + portals for everyone. You are absolutely delusional!

Respect should be earned, seriously?! What are you, some sort of medieval warrior? Welcome to the 21 century. You should be respectfull to everyone till the moment they loose said respect, and you lost my respect with the idiotic, disrespectfull shit you post here.
I dont even want to disprove the shit you puke out anymore because you are a lost case.

Dont expect a response to whatever brain poop you are going to answer with.

[Hombrehongo]

This thread is a mess, didnt knew so many people had such a strong opinion on paladins buffs, what a weird hill to die on. I think it's reasonable to make the 5min buffs 10 minutes instead, it's just an annoyance, this applies to pala buffs, shaman weapons and elemental shields.
But that is just my opinion.

[Velite]

When I started in October '18 on this server it was presented as a slower levelling, roleplaying, with new quests added all over the vanilla flavour server. This means they had plans to bring more depth to the already existing world, bringing quests that were either discarded or just unfinished.

An important aspect of world depth that you're missing is the lens in which we interact with the world: The Classes. Ideal design for vanilla was your standard RPG fare where each class has strengths and weaknesses. We want that. In the spirit of that, one can decide that each class should have 1 role so we can better focus their strengths and weaknesses. I assume this is the version of the game you want, where each class can just do 1 thing to keep them unique in their strengths and weaknesses. Alternatively, and this is the important thing, we follow through with the aspect of World of Warcraft design that previous mmo's lacked, which unfortunately conflicts with the "Classes can only do 1 thing", specializations. By the very name it conflicts with the idea that each class should be capable of one thing and one thing only. Especially when it comes to classes who can fill multiple roles. Now, you claim that we're "wrath/cata" babies, because we want everyone to be capable of doing everything equally well.

That is not true. We want the game to be consistent. When there is a class who can do both of its potential roles equally as well as eachother, why can't other classes do the same? And why is this possible if the developers intended, and you maintain, that each class can only do 1 role? Either that class should be nerfed to only be capable of it's intended role, or everyone else brought up to par with the ability that one has, not equal to the class in question, but that they too can do other roles just as well as their intended role.

Where Vanilla WoW deviates from Everquest, in Everquest each class had 1 role and you accepted that because, well, there were no specializations, your class abilities were all baseline, such that a class like Paladin in everquest has strong tanking focus but has tools to do other roles to a lesser extent, but not to the same extent as the cleric. In WoW, each class has specializations, and for some that radically transforms the baseline power of the class, while for others it does not. There's inconsistent philosophy.

When you embark on a game that seeks to expand on vanilla, one of the major hurdles to recognize is that the lens we view the world with (leveling, pvp, raids) via the classes has major inconsistencies, and designing future content like raids and dungeons and group quests going forward is only going to perpetuate those inconsistencies if they are not approached. You improve the world experience tenfold if you add new content on top of adding new ways to engage with the content. This is, in fact, the reasoning behind adding new gamemodes such as Warmode and Hardcore. That's done at a universal level, we want ways to do that at a class specific level.

[Velite]

This thread is a mess, didnt knew so many people had such a strong opinion on paladins buffs, what a weird hill to die on. I think it's reasonable to make the 5min buffs 10 minutes instead, it's just an annoyance, this applies to pala buffs, shaman weapons and elemental shields.
But that is just my opinion.

Agree, any short term buff that isn't considered a cooldown should be at least 10 minutes. Strong cooldown buffs should not exceed 30 seconds. Imagine if shadow protection for priests was 5 instead of 10 minutes

Hell, FEAR WARD is 10 MINUTES. A spell that should only last 30 seconds is 10 minutes in duration.

[Geojak]

10 minuts and 30 for greater blessing. this is fair and balanced.

30 min for normal blessings is excessive also consdiering the mana cost comapring to arcane ittlect and similair stuff.

10 minuts for pala blessing and shaman weapon enchants. make it happen

[Venytas]

10 minuts and 30 for greater blessing. this is fair and balanced.

30 min for normal blessings is excessive also consdiering the mana cost comapring to arcane ittlect and similair stuff.

10 minuts for pala blessing and shaman weapon enchants. make it happen

I still dont see where this is fair in the slightest. Buff blessings, weapon enchants etc. to 30min like arcane intellect and higher the mana costs. There is no problem in doing this except for "I dont like this"

[Geojak]

It's fair because dmaoen magic and thorns is also 10 minutes.

Its in the spirit of what vanilla already has.

Making it 30 minutes means next we gonna be changing thorn To 30. Slippery slope etc.ifwe aren't careful we suddenly have 30 min seals like in Wotlk, which sucks

But 10 minutes is not, its not a new precendece because 10 minutes buffs are already the norm for many things expect pala and shmam

[Velite]

Blizz putting greater blessings is a perfect example of "Designing the game around raids" since they're all only available in the late 50's or some are even 60 only. It's great that those ones are 15, and at most 9 clicks every 15 mins isn't so bad, but singles at 5 minutes... You can get them to 6.5 if you have the ZG 5 set... which requires grinding edge of madness AND getting all 4 items + ZG exalted...

And I'll repeat again: Blessing of Salvation was 15 minutes when talented and a single blessing before patch 1.9. Leveling as prot actually got NERFED from the 1.1 version of the game. That 15 minute salvation must have been a massive convenience when leveling into the 30+ range as a Prot paladin.

Hell make it even cost silver to cast them at longer duration! That'll be balanced too.

[Akalix]

Reminder to all parties involved to keep the conversation civil.

I think that while this would be a decent QoL change, 30 minutes would be much longer than I think fits. One example for needing to adapt the buffs would be hunters, as Might/Kings/Wisdom all can be viable depending on the pull.

However, I overall think the changes Paladins need are elsewhere, and that buffs can be left in the vanilla style.

[Velite]

Reminder to all parties involved to keep the conversation civil.

I think that while this would be a decent QoL change, 30 minutes would be much longer than I think fits. One example for needing to adapt the buffs would be hunters, as Might/Kings/Wisdom all can be viable depending on the pull.

However, I overall think the changes Paladins need are elsewhere, and that buffs can be left in the vanilla style.

Except this isn't tbc and Might is only melee attack power. Might is always better than Kings since the pet's stats don't scale, so the flat ap is better on the pet, so it could be 15 minutes since you don't make a decision for pets. So just kings or wisdom really for the hunter, which is going to depend on their gear - Or salvation, which is what I usually do. But the thing is that all of these are decided when I start the instance, not on a pull basis. The only things that are decided on a pull basis are Sacrifice, Freedom, and Protection, which are not the subject of this debate.

Source: I have been playing on a paladin for going on 15 years.

[Velite]

Bottom line of this thread, is that we want "gear/comp decided blessings" to last longer because they 100% of the time last the full duration; Paladins are NOT swapping blessings before they expire, or else we would be fine because then the duration would be "long enough". We ARE doing that for Sacrifice, Protection, and Freedom, but those are short enough that we'll reapply the 5 minute, which itself will last the full 5 minutes.

Blessings which are dictated by composition or gear of the players:
Salvation
Sanctuary
Wisdom
Might
Kings
Light

Blessings which are dictated on a "on pull" basis:
Sacrifice
Protection
Freedom

If the gameplay was so significant that paladins would be swapping the "gear decided" blessings between pulls, we'd literally be EQ Bards and just swapping buffs nonstop, without any healing, damage dealing or tanking, just basically a walking totem lol. That only happens to shamans who totem twist, and they do it on a much more frequent basis than pulling.

Side note, if you really wanted to make enhancement shamans good for being enhancement, then you should just incorporate totem twisting passively for them only.

You need to put aside any class biases, and look at any given spell and try to understand "why does this spell have this much of a duration". If you look at a spell which you intend to not always use for it's full duration, or one that is insanely powerful and has a cooldown, it's ripe for having a short duration. Then, spells which are not going to be replaced before the duration is over, should have a longer duration. Yes, that really means (In vanilla, unless you guys somehow decide to add Commanding Shout) Battle shout should definitely have a longer duration (although atm it is basically a 1 cast every 2 minutes like a single totem).

What I'm trying to say in short words: If you are only ever going to cast blessing of might on a player for the entire dungeon (which happens alot while leveling tbh), the only difference between 1, 5, and 15 minutes is how often you want to make the player click. There is no ulterior game design decision here, it's just a matter of convenience. And when it comes to convenience, this is less impactful than Turtle making Zanzas, Blasted lands consumes, and Potions stack more than in vanilla.

THERE. IS. NO. POWER. CREEP.

[Geojak]

What velite said rly.
Ppl that thing otherwise aren't playing paladin or understanding the dynamics of blessings.

There is no on pull decision with blessings. It's fantasy.
You choose per player what they get at dungeon start, and then you Have to remember that veery 5 minutes, to reapply the same thing over and over.

30 minutes is excessive. 10 minutes it not.

IF you think paladin needs are otherwise, you also likely not raiding paladin or doing dungeons.

I need 10 minutes buffs much more than a ret biff

[B3tabob]

What velite said rly.
Ppl that thing otherwise aren't playing paladin or understanding the dynamics of blessings.

There is no on pull decision with blessings. It's fantasy.
You choose per player what they get at dungeon start, and then you Have to remember that veery 5 minutes, to reapply the same thing over and over.

30 minutes is excessive. 10 minutes it not.

IF you think paladin needs are otherwise, you also likely not raiding paladin or doing dungeons.

I need 10 minutes buffs much more than a ret biff

This is not a personal attack, but if you want people to take your seriously, you might want to spend a minute to proof-read your comment.

You choose per player what they get at dungeon start, and then you Have to remember that veery 5 minutes, to reapply the same thing over and over.

Also, is this not a skill check? I'd argue that paladins that remember to buff their allies (and pets) with correct blessings shows knowledge of other people classes and proves your own abilities to play your class. Paladin blessings are the strongest buffs in the game for a reason.

30 minutes is excessive. 10 minutes it not.

My vote would be to have 5 minute blessings while leveling with either a 10 minute duration rank of the blessing available at level 60 or a talented version that does not take away talent points in regular builds.

[Geojak]

"Paladin blessings are the strongest buffs in the game for a reason."

Where does this, even come from?

Fortutude is way, more useful than anything Palas offer.

Wf is better then bom and bok combined..

We don't even use half our buffs in raids, because of shamans, how are we the strongest buffs.

Or are you mixing in blessing of freedom and blessing of protection? Because they aren't part of this discussion. They are fundemantely different with a few second runtime and noone is asking to change that.

[Allknighty]

Hi.

I have an argument that could make everybody agree: time.

We should all calculate the time it takes during one raid for every pala to buff everybody every five minutes (supposedly), the mana consumption it takes, the time it takes to get that mana back, the time it takes for mages to create the water, the time it takes for them to get their mana back, etc., etc.
Seconds + seconds = minutes + minutes = hours, you get what I mean I think.

Longer benedictions = shorter raids or more fluid raids if you prefer = more time to enjoy the game by starting another raid that same night, going to dungeons, farming, questing, etc.

This is called convenience. Buffing palas QoL = buffing the whole raid QoL. I don't see the problem for having slightly longer benedictions (10 mins and 45 to 60 for superior ones as it is the case for arcane intellect, fortitude and mark of the wild).

The benedictions were designed to give the equivalent of long buffs in terms of stats such as those I just mentionned, why not giving them longer durations? They are OP? I don't think so... 10 minutes doesn't seem like an "overpowering" of paladins in my opinion.

Hope this argument can lower the heat of this topic.

Bless you all, pun intended of course.

[Velite]

30 minutes is excessive. 10 minutes it not.

My vote would be to have 5 minute blessings while leveling with either a 10 minute duration rank of the blessing available at level 60 or a talented version that does not take away talent points in regular builds.

Simplest way to do this: Change improved blessing of might (which isn't used on this server) into improved blessings which increases duration of the 6 "gear/comp dependent" blessings by +1/2/3/4/5 minutes.

Thorns is 10 minutes, too, btw. Arguably as strong as sanctuary.

[Sinrek]

30 minutes is excessive. 10 minutes it not.

My vote would be to have 5 minute blessings while leveling with either a 10 minute duration rank of the blessing available at level 60 or a talented version that does not take away talent points in regular builds.

Simplest way to do this: Change improved blessing of might (which isn't used on this server) into improved blessings which increases duration of the 6 "gear/comp dependent" blessings by +1/2/3/4/5 minutes.

Thorns is 10 minutes, too, btw. Arguably as strong as sanctuary.

Formulas and metrics WHEN?

[Talenne]

Can we at least have more incentive to want to play more like a melee class, maybe through talents or skills? If blessings are playing as intended, then what about actually making Paladin a melee support where the "melee" aspect isn't punishing or inefficient to try to do?

[Venytas]

I am still for 30 minute durations of similar buffs.
Still havent seen a valid argument on why it shouldnt be this way except "slippery slope", "excesive" or stuff like that. (dont want to be disrespectfull)

If you dont want to increase similar buffs durations to be on par with each other, how about nerfing the durations of buffs like furtitude or arcane intellect to 5 or 10 minutes? I wonder what the players of those classes would think of this.

Changing durations of those spells to 1, 2, 5, 10, 15, 30 or 120 minutes wont change anything, it is just convinience.

It seems like some people in here are so scared of retail that they always twitch whenever they read or hear QoL or convinience, we dont want to make retail 2.0.

One last thing, retails downfall wasnt the change towards 30 minutes buffs, it was greed and a well known company and I dont see this well known company anywhere in here.

[Thol]

I am still for 30 minute durations of similar buffs.
Still havent seen a valid argument on why it shouldnt be this way except "slippery slope", "excesive" or stuff like that. (dont want to be disrespectfull)

If you dont want to increase similar buffs durations to be on par with each other, how about nerfing the durations of buffs like furtitude or arcane intellect to 5 or 10 minutes? I wonder what the players of those classes would think of this.

Changing durations of those spells to 1, 2, 5, 10, 15, 30 or 120 minutes wont change anything, it is just convinience.

It seems like some people in here are so scared of retail that they always twitch whenever they read or hear QoL or convinience, we dont want to make retail 2.0.

One last thing, retails downfall wasnt the change towards 30 minutes buffs, it was greed and a well known company and I dont see this well known company anywhere in here.

Well, I'm in favor of doubling the duration of blessings but I agree with the slippery slope argument, old timers like me experienced it once already. And this wasn't all evil Blizzard doing, most convenience changes were requested on forums like this one back then. Players created retail as much as Blizzard did. Blizzard devs aren't here but retail players are, and you can read on this forum suggestions like summoning stones, level 60 boosts,...If you implement every players suggestions you'll get another shade of retail. Also I agree this doesn't mean every suggestions should be ignored, like this one. But one of the devs called us Cata babies for being in favor of it, so I don't see it being implemented any time soon.

[Felbrood]

I think blessings durations can be buffed, but not directly. Via talents would be good, for example each talent point in improved blessing of might increase, additionaly to AP, duration by 1min for BoM and GBoM. It wouldn't ruin "Vanilla spirit" and give some duration.

[Geojak]

But we don't use bom in raids at all

[Papum]

I am still for 30 minute durations of similar buffs.
Still havent seen a valid argument on why it shouldnt be this way except "slippery slope", "excesive" or stuff like that. (dont want to be disrespectfull)

If you dont want to increase similar buffs durations to be on par with each other, how about nerfing the durations of buffs like furtitude or arcane intellect to 5 or 10 minutes? I wonder what the players of those classes would think of this.

Changing durations of those spells to 1, 2, 5, 10, 15, 30 or 120 minutes wont change anything, it is just convinience.

It seems like some people in here are so scared of retail that they always twitch whenever they read or hear QoL or convinience, we dont want to make retail 2.0.

One last thing, retails downfall wasnt the change towards 30 minutes buffs, it was greed and a well known company and I dont see this well known company anywhere in here.

"Changing durations of those spells to 1, 2, 5, 10, 15, 30 or 120 minutes wont change anything, it is just convinience." I agree with you, just adding an extra to it: Because you have to spend mana to rebuff imagine in an fast pace environment that you couldn't not replenish back the lost mana (because the encounter was started by an other player that did not think of the consequences of starting an encounter with low mana people could do, alway's assume that the user is the 'dumbest' person on the planet that is programing 101) because of the rebuffs made than this will be less mana you'l have for the next encounter it wouldn't be fun that that could be the difference in winning the encounter. Extending the time will mitagate this, downtime and as above you mentioned convinience. What happens when an design is not made to make the experience of an player an good and fun experience? The ip/game ussualy ends up failing and that is as simple 1+1=2.

[Papum]

I think blessings durations can be buffed, but not directly. Via talents would be good, for example each talent point in improved blessing of might increase, additionaly to AP, duration by 1min for BoM and GBoM. It wouldn't ruin "Vanilla spirit" and give some duration.

Using talent points to increase the time or the increased time inbuild into an other alterational talent for an longterm designated buff (shortterm buff = consumed after an short timed situational boost) is just bad design in my opinion.

[Papum]

You speak against what i propose yet what youh posted to prove against my point just proves my point... . As they say it was originally designed to be situational high impact buffs and nothe the low/medium ones currently being used, and if listen well not even he is content how it ended up being that said a low 5 min buff... . So an 30 min should be ideial because its not and high impact short duration situational buff (in exception of blessing of protection, sacrififice and freedom) but more and exactually similiar to the druid mark of teh wild buff thats on an 30 min buff because its an auxialiar buff now.

[Sinrek]

You speak against what i propose yet what youh posted to prove against my point just proves my point... . As they say it was originally designed to be situational high impact buffs and nothe the low/medium ones currently being used, and if listen well not even he is content how it ended up being that said a low 5 min buff... . So an 30 min should be ideial because its not and high impact short duration situational buff (in exception of blessing of protection, sacrififice and freedom) but more and exactually similiar to the druid mark of teh wild buff thats on an 30 min buff because its an auxialiar buff now.

That's why we are still stuck with this debate. The team studied this and since there's an attempt try to preserve the OG system of spells and improve the original class ideas Blizz abandoned in their rush and metaslaving, TW team should come up with something more utility based for these Blessings and not simply succumb to the already known Wrath-like style.

If you take some time and listen to Kevin Jordan's further thoughts on the classes you'll understand his reasoning and TW idea for paladins in particular.

I'd like to see someone from the management actually dropping a line or two in that regard but as we all know they are kinda buried with bug-fixing. Priorities…

[Shamma]

Nothing to add really. Just to commend u all on getting to 99 posts on 5 pages of good and meaningful discussion and I wanted to ninja post #100.