Change to the enhancement tree

[Ishilu]

Cheers!

While I like most recent talent changes, I'm not too fond of the new lightning shield talent in the shaman enhancement tree. Shouldn't a talent, especially the lvl 20/30/40 talents make one's own character stronger and more fun?
Now, I see the advantage of casting this on a tank, but then, it's a buff that needs to be recast after the tank has been hit 3 times. For me, that's even worse than recasting blessings every five minutes...

So, my suggestion would be to toss this one out in favour of something that makes shaman tanks a little bit better.

Something along the line of (and I'm making this up spontaneously without doing any maths)

Ritual of the primal guardian:
Requires: equipped shield, and a moderate cast time (so a shaman can't just change stances as easily as a warrior. This is a pvp balance thing). The effect ends, when the shield is unequipped. Otherwise, the effect is non-dispellable.

When activated, the shamans shield gets an increased block value and in addition gets a buff based on the shamans weapon enhancement:
Rockbiter: increase shamans AP (and therefore threat generation) after blocking.
Flametongue: Shield reflects some blocked damage as fire damage, also increases cold resistance.
Frostbrand: Shield restores x% of blocked damage as mana for the shaman, also increases fire resistance.
Windfury: Block chance increased by y% after blocking an attack, also increases nature resistance.

In addition, threat generation is increased for all weapon enhancements, similar to rockbiter, while the effect is active. Also, Earth shock now taunts the target.


When the effect is cancelled, the shaman suffers:
Elemental fatigue:
something similar to ress sickness for, say 20 seconds as a punishment for switching stances, again.

[Sleg]

Totally agree with the idea making shaman proper tank, though not sure about suggested changes.
I'd like to see mass agro spell smashig earth, and, maybe, stunning everybody around for short period of time, visually similar to warriors thunder clap with lots of threat. Or Thunderstorm - lightning coming out of shaman in all directions.
As a defence abilities it could be some earth/spirit help - increasing armour/elemental resistance depending on current HP level.
The idea to boost shields is cool, anyway)

[Darkgestalt]

I too, competely agree that Thunderhead is not a interesting talent and that we should change it . I also agree that we could put in a talent to help out shaman tanks. But I believe it should be something a bit more simpler.

My suggestion is to give the shaman a moderate aoe threat ability, that can only be used after a specific condition is met:

Primal Roar (10 sec cooldown)
Let out a reinvigorating roar, gaining 5% mana and causes a moderate amount of threat to all enemies around you. Primal Roar must follow a block.

It gives tanks a bit of mana back, allows them some leeway on aoe threat and as it requires a block does not influence healing or dps shamans.

EDIT: some spellingerrors

[Ishilu]

Thanks for the feedback :-)

I'm also glad that other people share my opinion about thunderhead.

I'm not married to my idea as posted above, but I think we need to keep a few things in mind here.

Firstly, I really think a tank shaman needs to be a little bit tougher right now. It's fine for 5-mans, but a shaman with mail armor and a shield is squishier than a warrior/pala with plate and shield.

Secondly, we want to keep classes unique. For example, giving enhancers plate armor would solve the squishiness, but make them more similar to warriors or palas, while a generic x%boost to armor would be similar to what feral druids have. My proposed shield enhancements fit nicely here: it's a logical expansion on the existing weapon buff concept while offering a more unique solution to squishiness.

Thirdly: PvP balance. I personally don't care one bit about that, but consider a class with decent toughness, high mobility, self heal, decent burst damage, area slow and many more gimmicks that can shift between "dealing high damage" and "being tanky" in pvp, just by swapping out a shield. Warriors and druids at least lose rage or energy, so shamans need some "punishment" for changing stances. The outcry from some PvP'ers would be fully justified, this time.

From personal experience, mana regeneration is not such a huge problem for enhancer tanks. We have to drink every once in a while, but it's no worse for us than for paladins.

AoE threat is, in my opinion, also a lesser problem. Enhancers can already do a nice group pull with chain lightning. Add damage reflection (lightning shield + some possible shield reflect), and multiple enemies aren't such a big problem with some tabbing between autohits. Also, some smart guy on this forum even suggested generating group aggro with lesser healing wave, which actually works nicely. There's also stoneclaw for the small stuff, which could be modified for a tank shaman, however.
Also some AoE threat could be tied to a shield buff, as well, e.g. by turning my proposed fire shield reflect into an AE.

Conclusion: There's room for many ideas here :-)

[Darkgestalt]

Excellent points you are making Ishilu, it's good to share our experiences playing as shaman in differents walk of life (pvp, endgame, leveling).

First I like to say that I liked Sleg's thematic idea of Smashing Earth very much. Though a general stun might not be fitting, we could find something interesting that isn't too similar to Thunderclap.

Here are my thoughts on your reply, to keep the discussion going:
Your first point about toughness. I share your concerns, but also would like to keep in mind that the latest update gave us 30% more armor from shields (which contributes roughly halve our entire armor value). I think increasing those numbers further to emulate plate might not be what we are looking for. Talents like Elemental Warding and Guardian Totems are more appropriate to increase our survivability, allowing shamans to mitigate damage in a different way then raw Armor value. I believe giving Shamans easier access to +Defense might be a strong help as well. I look forward to your opinion on this.

Second point I feel is where my Simple suggestion came from, your idea is amazing but a bit to much to keep track off. As well, I personally believe that only Rockbiter should be for shamtanks, and not muddying the water by giving the other enchants a use for tanking as well.
I do share your focus on making the shield a important part of the Shaman. For a warrior a shield is nothing more then a tool, something to smack into the face of the enemy. For paladins, they are a symbol of their faith and resolve, important but attached. For the shaman tank, the shield should be more personal, the physical representation of their commitment to their community, lovingly adorned with totemic symbols and tokens of their conquests. So I share your idea to make their blockvalue, block chance and overall importance something to build upon.

Third, pvp balance, I do not share much interest in PvP as well, that is also why I tried to make my ability something you don't really use during pvp. Like Revenge for a warrior, or Righteous Fury for a paladin. It only comes up if you put points in Enhancement, walk around with a shield (no 2hander) and then successfully Block someone. It also only gives a bit of mana in pvp, so not very influential.

Your point about mana as a Tank is very interesting. I find it challenging to use abilities like Earthshock (different ranks of course), Stormstrike and new spells like Bloodlust, regularly without spending all my mana. Also, since I have to keep up a balance between Fortitude, Strenght, Agility and Intelligence or Spirit. Shaman tank needs it all it seems. More importantly I feel that running out of mana/resources is not a core Tanking mechanic. Like Rage and now Shield Specialization for paladins, resources should trickle back in as long as a tank is alive and kicking. Again, hope to read your thoughts on this.

AoE threat is something I find to be increasingly difficult as shamans tank higher instances. Kevin Jordan (World of Warcraft Class Designer) commented on this in a Podcast. Mob density increases and other players gain access to powerful AoE damage they want to use. Since Earthshock is on a long 5/6s CD its difficult to keep up with threat while also keeping the main damage mob sticking. Again, it also drains mana fast if you need to use Stormstrike just to keep up. If people have different experiences that would be great to discuss. I do want to say though, that using excessive consumables like bombs and Oil of Immolation is not something I want to keep as baseline when discussing improvements.

On your last note about putting AoE on a shieldbuff, that is kinda what I did with my suggestion. I just wanted to also put it behind a condition (successful block) and a GCD (button to press). I feel making it a passive buff strays to far to Paladin tanking.

Hopefully you can see my points a bit here, and maybe poke a few holes in my logic :D!

PS Earthshock has to many uses as is already, allowing it to somehow Taunt is just way to much. It deals high immediate damage, it interrupts spells AND it is our basic threat ability. I strongly suggest we let Earthshock sit this on out.

[Venytas]

I have never played shaman because I dont like totems (xD) but I know that many player want a proper shaman tank so I support every thread that discusses this.

[Studbucket]

I was going to post a new thread about the Thunderhead talent, but I saw this thread and thought it was best I +1 this.

At first I was excited about being able to cast Lightning Shield as a buff on others, like how I might cast Blessing of Might as a Paladin on anyone I wish. Then I realized that all this talent did is allow me to cast it on a single person that was not me, so I couldn't even put it on another and myself.

I personally find this unworthy of a talent point and disappointing.

The ideas above are good, and I'd like to submit the idea of allowing Lightning Shield to be cast on anyone as a 10 minute buff, with no limit on the number of people it can be cast on. Perhaps this is a level 40 version of Lightning Shield or a talent.

Others may have more thoughtful ideas, and I'm grateful for this discussion.

[Darkgestalt]

For me, the biggest drawback besides not benefiting from it myself. Is that you would have to reapply it ever few seconds! Lightning Shield only has 3 charges, that means you either have to switch target to the tank or make a mouse-over macro, to recast the damn thing. Thunderhead is just awkward game design.

Its fine as a selfbuff, because you can always just cast on self and notice whether or not its active. But that kind of bookkeeping would just be exhausting on other players. Look at paladins simply not wanting to rebuff every 5 minutes.

[Voidrever]

For me, thunderhead need to move to restro talent with -10% mana to cast (row 3).
As thunderhead in echance, it need to remove or change to something better. I suggest imp lightning shield now -15% mana, and thunderhead now become thunder embrace: add more threat generate to lightning shield and -10% mana cost.
=> more useful for shaman tank leveling .for restro shaman, total reduce is 35% if take all 3.

[Ravenstone]

It is in a bit of a weird place, I find myself not using Lightning Shield at all because its just a bit too meh. During leveling its something that was more of a chore to cast, and I since it only has 3 charges it just falls off all the time, let alone keeping it on others.

I find myself wanting it to be free to cast to even consider using it, but thats a pretty rubbish solution. At least Water Shield restores mana to you so it's more rewarding to keep up. Maybe if there was some way to restore the charges so you could keep it on for longer. But I just dont see myself using it over Water Shield and it shouldnt become a thorns 2.0.

I like the ideas around something adding AoE, made me think the talent should allow the lightning shield to explode on hit and damage all enemies in close proximity, kinda like the engineering shield. Might incentivise actually using it without straying too far from what we already have.