Toxic PvP?

[Stoogeville]

So many Toxic PvE people here, yet they dont even notice how toxic they are :(

Let's ban everyone that dares even slightly enjoy PvP, and then do the Surprised Pikachu face when there wont be enough ppl left for Dungeons. :)

You seem to be pretty tone-deaf on this. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that PvPers are the crux when it comes to populating PvE content; nor that there were always enough people for dungeons even before Warmode. I think, honestly, you're just trying to ghoulify the point so that you feel less bad that PvP players are finally being called out. Turtle survived for a long time before the current wave of PvP refugees - they're not the solution, they are the problem.


I was there when the discussions about Warmode first started going around. Back then, I was in support of them; which I still am, in theory, if it is done correctly.
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What has happened, however, as I'm sure has been explained to death in this thread: The devs have used PvE rewards to encourage PvP. So, rather than getting Warmode because they want to engage in PvP, people are getting it purely for the XP bonus, even if they personally do not like to PvP (because, it's a biiiiig bonus); and in turn, toxic players are capitalizing on it by ganking them, and acting snide to prove a point. PvP should be about encouraging PvP players to positively engage in PvP, while encouraging PvE players to do their thing without muddying the waters - and as such, the rewards (and mechanisms) of Warmode are desperately in need of fixing. It's not enough just to deride somebody by the schizophrenic argumens of saying, "Get Warmode because the XP boost is too good!", and then saying, "If you didn't want to get ganked, don't get warmode!". Once again, PvP should be about encouraging positive, balanced PvP in the wilds; not gank paranoia.

Ultimately, if this can't be done (which it absolutely can), I think that Warmode should be removed. PvP players seem to say things like, "Well, anecdotally, I never got ganked!"; but, obviously, these are PvP players. They don't play like the rest of the Turtle crowd; which is, socially, and without PvP anxiety. They don't visit the meetups at Tents, they don't run around neutral hubs to chat to players; and ultimately, their attitude doesn't fit with the server. Turtle has always been a RP-PvE server. I'm sure that PvPers enjoy Turtle for all the great things it has, and don't want to simply be kicked back into the toxicity of open-PvP servers; but, sadly, we've got to take care of our community first, and if PvP players are killing the vibe, they have no right to run around making arrogant, hackneyed arguments to support what is clearly a poorly-instituted game mechanic. In the end, there's no other server like Turtle, and there's a reason. Let's not forget it.


I'm honestly not sure how the developers settled on the current confuguration for Warmode. I love the devs' efforts, but I've noticed a very strong trend that devs on Turtle lack foresight. They'll make quick, dirty changes that seem (and often are) pretty cool on the surface level; but end up having more ramifications than boons.

For instance, look at the current issue with classes: Many people have stated a strong eagerness for Undead Paladins and Dwarf Shamans. However, this is no longer possible, because the class limit on both races has been maxed out. Somebody decided that it would be cool to have Undead Hunters; and clearly without thinking it through, they made the change, and forever locked Turtle into its current paradigm. It could be argued that faction-restrictions like that are a trait of vanilla; but it's not 2005 anymore, and the idea of faction-specific classes no longer has the same whimsy and excitement as it did twenty years ago (now that everybody knows classes inside-out).

Now, I ask you to read your post, very slowly and I am sure you will find the problem .

I have, honestly no idea why you think that Experience is not needed for PvP players xD. And I still dont understand what the problem with an Opt-in PvP mode is ?

I reckon you're the one who should be reading my post, very slowly. I'm willing to bet you briefly glanced at it, though, so I shouldn't be too greedy.

Opening a separate server for just PvP will only segregate the small population even further, this is not in the interest of anyone.

The only solution is to contain PvP in battlegrounds an instanced arena.

I guess I had to say it explicitly for some to understand, but the idea of 'more and more players' would indicate the server is loaded up with more than enough players to do what I mention.

Second, to your comment that 'the only solution' - dude, that is just YOUR opinion. Not a fact.

You seem very angry about something, you should chill out.

The server doesn't have this amount of players for your suggestion to work, so what's the point in suggesting something that isn't viable at the moment? There is no data that supports whether the server population will increase, decrease or remain the same.

When enough people complain about PvP being a problem, there is an obvious reason for it. Before PvP, 99% of the threads on the forums were inquiries on the new content or suggestions for new content. Now it's complaints about PvP, ganking and toxicity... I wonder where that came from and what caused it? It's the greatest unsolved mystery of all time.

Nobody wants to feel like they're the arsehole making everything worse. Which is absolutely fair enough. People love Turtle for Turtle, but they also have to respect that Turtle is Turtle for a reason. And that reason, by and large, is absent of PvP.

I do genuinely believe there is a symbiosis that we could achieve here, without any huge/risky efforts, as long as we stick close to our roots. Instances are definitely not the "only option" - they never were! PvP players are right: PvP was never the pariah of Turtle WoW, but some poor design choices have made it so.

[Stoogeville]

I think warmode shouldn't have a reward, or it should be something that doesn't give gameplay advantage (unless it'd be some custom content in the future strictly related to pvp activity).
Being able to properly do world pvp during warmode is the reward itself.
Many consider the faction conflict as a fundamental part of the warcraft franchise, early wow and an important part of RPing and immersion. (as we are roleplaying as a member of one of the two factions that are in conflict, the opposite faction NPCs attack us and diplomacy glyph is required for that reason; and faction conflict is an integral part of wow lore). Again, warmode isn't mandatory, it is optional.

Also since at the moment warmode does have xp reward, it is quite pathetic to accept warmode, a mode ment for people that enjoy wpvp, only in order to get the xp reward, and then whine about being flagged for pvp while leveling, then demand the mode to be removed... I agree that the reward is unnecesary though.

Warmode doesn't force anyone to do pvp, it is the perfect solution that allows people to do world pvp while allowing those that dont want to take part to abstain from it. It increased the population which means more revenue for the turtle wow devs and more resources to make awesome custom content.

Some people here clearly demostrate that they aren't PvE players as they call themselves but just anti-pvp players with inflated tribal instincts, this "us vs them" mentality is ridiculous. Some players like doing only PvE, some like only PvP, some like only RPing, leveling etc, most like a combination of these things, in any group of wow players you will find decent and indecent people.

"I came to turtle wow to escape pvp servers"... turtle wow is a PvE server, you aren't forced to sign up for battlegrounds nor join warmode world pvp nor to duel etc. You can talk group and trade with the opposite faction and never take part in any PvP activity. But just because you don't like it, don't try to forbid others from it, or to be hostile and create a division in the turtle community. You aren't "PvE" players, you are anti-PvP players, you are calling people toxic that do everything you do plus PvP, even though they aren't doing anything to you. The server won't change, everyone who is here obviously likes the way the server is, they just also enjoy world PvP, so enough with this hysterical tribal hostility.

Like, sure, these are all valid points - but they're also fundamental arguments. For instance, PvP didn't "increase the population" - it catered to an influx. Nobody is forced to PvP - but now, everybody is now forced to play in an PvP environment. People didn't suddenly adopt a tribal stance against PvPers - they got from seeing PvP players taunting and teasing, bragging about ganks, spouting that inane "get gud" bullshit, and generally acting terribly smug in world chat and elsewhere. This last thing has never been an attitude that's been cool on Turtle.

In the end, PvP abstinence (as with any form of abstinence) is not a solution. "Just don't do it" won't bring back the classic Gurubashi chill spot.

[Valadorn]

So, let's agree that the problem is not PvP itself, the problem is some people ?

Cuz thats exactly what I have been trying to say.

[Merikkinon]

You seem very angry about something, you should chill out.

Quite possibly that you feel entitled to tell people 'how it is' and 'what they need to do'.

When enough people complain about PvP being a problem, there is an obvious reason for it. Before PvP, 99% of the threads on the forums were inquiries on the new content or suggestions for new content. Now it's complaints about PvP, ganking and toxicity... I wonder where that came from and what caused it? It's the greatest unsolved mystery of all time.

Basically the vast majority of posts are in this thread. Most threads are about other things. The vitriol is in this thread, the absolutes and 'telling it like it is' is in this thread.


Agree with Valadorn though - the problem is with people, not the concept of PvP.

[Allwynd01]

Quite possibly that you feel entitled to tell people 'how it is' and 'what they need to do'.

I say what I think, it doesn't mean the developers will take it into consideration and I don't care, so being free to say what I think is enough for me. What happens after that is up to them with the interest of their server's well-being as a priority.

Agree with Valadorn though - the problem is with people, not the concept of PvP.

The developers of this server initially started out with no PvP in question, when their server started to grow in popularity and size, they also looked into options for PvP. These options don't appear to be making the majority of the populace happy. And if people are the problem, then they should be treated as such, but people are what is the difference from animals. People have the ability to control their urges. If people can't do that, they are no different from monkeys. And if monkeys are disrupting the server, monkeys should be locked in a cage, where they belong. If you don't agree with this, then you should take it up to the server administrators and discuss this matter with them privately.

[Allwynd01]

Nobody wants to feel like they're the arsehole making everything worse. Which is absolutely fair enough. People love Turtle for Turtle, but they also have to respect that Turtle is Turtle for a reason. And that reason, by and large, is absent of PvP.

I do genuinely believe there is a symbiosis that we could achieve here, without any huge/risky efforts, as long as we stick close to our roots. Instances are definitely not the "only option" - they never were! PvP players are right: PvP was never the pariah of Turtle WoW, but some poor design choices have made it so.

I was questing in The Barrens a few days ago as a High Elf Hunter just to get that Horde feel while not being Horde myself. At one point I saw a treasure chest, and while I was fighting a bunch of enemies to get to it, an Orc Shaman or whatever helped me beat them, even though I could've handled them myself, I could've looted that chest, but I decided to say nothing and move on, leaving the chest to my savior. The symbiosis you speak of is the players acting as human beings in every occasion. If someone is a 50 year old virgin with a micropenis and they feel they should make everyone bad by killing them just so they, themselves can feel good about themselves, then they are facing a personality problem that the game can't solve for them other than barring them from ruining other people's good time.

[Stoogeville]

Nobody wants to feel like they're the arsehole making everything worse. Which is absolutely fair enough. People love Turtle for Turtle, but they also have to respect that Turtle is Turtle for a reason. And that reason, by and large, is absent of PvP.

I do genuinely believe there is a symbiosis that we could achieve here, without any huge/risky efforts, as long as we stick close to our roots. Instances are definitely not the "only option" - they never were! PvP players are right: PvP was never the pariah of Turtle WoW, but some poor design choices have made it so.

I was questing in The Barrens a few days ago as a High Elf Hunter just to get that Horde feel while not being Horde myself. At one point I saw a treasure chest, and while I was fighting a bunch of enemies to get to it, an Orc Shaman or whatever helped me beat them, even though I could've handled them myself, I could've looted that chest, but I decided to say nothing and move on, leaving the chest to my savior. The symbiosis you speak of is the players acting as human beings in every occasion. If someone is a 50 year old virgin with a micropenis and they feel they should make everyone bad by killing them just so they, themselves can feel good about themselves, then they are facing a personality problem that the game can't solve for them other than barring them from ruining other people's good time.

Oh my god, I can't believe I wrote Symbiosis. I meant to say Synthesis. Either way, the point I was making is about finding a synthesis in the mechanics of Warmode, not in the people that use it. I believe that the way Warmode has been done isn't particularly great, and needs to be fixed so that it hits that nice little niche - allowing PvP non-obnoxiously while not bringing any associated negativity (shitty players included) to the forefront.

[Snakeman]

Been skimming this thread and, as someone who enjoys roleplay, raiding and PvP to some extent... It just makes me so sad to read. Very much opening myself up to being clowned upon here, but I feel like there's a fundamental misunderstanding from most parties, and (ironically, considering my shaman's RP lol) I think we ought to sit down and try to better understand each other's points of view.

I've been playing since... October? Last year? And in that time as a somewhat-active world PvPer I've seen so much more harassment in game from level 60 raiders than from "PvPers". Even with the addition of War Mode, the only people ganking me sub-60 would unflag themselves or call their friends as soon as a real threat appeared. The only issue with War Mode, in my opinion, as someone who loves the 30% XP boost, is the fact it includes a 30% XP boost. There is a subset of players who take War Mode for levelling efficiency and not for its intended purpose, and I think the devs could really stand to either rework or remove the "reward" portion of War Mode, because as it stands now it encourages people who dislike PvP to take it from level 1.

One also needs to consider Turtle's unique position when questioning why people roll here. It's not just "an RP-PvE server" - it also offers vast amounts of custom content, GMs who actually make themselves present and known, a reasonable philosophy when it comes to lore... etc. <Blacktooth Grin> tried Darrowshire when that came out after withdrawing from live TBC Classic; I elected to roll on Turtle (and FFXIV) instead, because they fostered RP communities so much better - default forest troll skins, hello yes I'm here bb?
Eventually many more Grin made a conceited effort to level on Turtle, and now RP using many of Turtle's custom features not available in other versions of the game (ogre illusions! Blackrock skins!), and it's a disservice to a lot of people playing this game imo to ignore the fact TWoW includes these features when talking about the playerbase. Sure, Vanilla+ exists, but their efforts are turned more towards the endgame raiding experience than to roleplay.

Custom playable content also adds to TWoW's longevity over other servers - standard blizzlike vanilla servers experience a lot of player drop-off after Molten Core gets cleared, because the people who roll on vanilla servers (generally) just do it for the experience of levelling to 60, forgetting how boring it is to raid MC/Ony and nothing else for months on end. It's a coincidence imo that most of them happened to me wPvP enabled - and I know Season of Mastery likely put the final nail in the coffin for Darrow.

World PvP is an essential facet of Grin's RP - without world PvP, the guild simply could not exist - but there are strictly enforced rules around it: no spitting, no bagging, no camping. I think a lot of WoW players in general, not just on Turtle, could stand to try out this philosophy also.

[Volkyte]

complaining about pvp is pathetic. Pvp is part of wow, turtle or not. If you do not want to pvp do not flag yourself first. Most "pvp gankers" i see around come from PVE / Rp guilds, a true pvp guild focus on bgs and horganized fights, not world ganking. many times i got ganked and killed. That is part of wow, where i remember you whiners, is HORDE VS ALLIANCE. Remember wow trailer? you do not see orcs kissing gnomes i recall!. Just get used to it, get 2cm skin and stop crying if you got killed by a random pvper while questing. Act like a mature player for god sake!

[Energyreflect]

Such compelling and well formulated arguments, Volkyte! Really gives us food for thought!

[N0l]

With warmode (and with the multitude of RPPvP guilds now), Turtle now caters to RP-PvPers too, and RP-PvPers are an important part of this server's community. But as someone who stays flagged on warmode basically all the time on all my characters, I'm not really sure of what "toxic PvP" people are referring to so ubiquitously.

Gurubashi Arena is still a fairly safe zone (my low-level, flagged characters collect rested XP there all the time - I've only died twice now to ganks, and no camps yet), cross-faction play is still encouraged even among warmoded and flagged people, and I have yet to be camped despite being ganked a few times. Most of the people I see flagged aren't even that aggressive - so much so that I haven't actually been ganked while questing in STV yet.

People refer to ganks in world chat, sure, but I don't see what the problem of that is. Some people get camped, some people camp, some people brag about their most amusing kills. If people are being actually abusive or problematic about it, I'm certain the server's support team will talk to them.

As for the reward, I feel it should be kept. No-reward flagging would even discourage me from flagging (And I love PvP!) just because it'd certainly lead to basically everyone unflagging. But if the XP reward is "too much", then lowering it (perhaps to retail's baseline of 15% for warmode) - or some other system, such as keeping warmode on from 1-60 earns you a title or mount or other cosmetic reward. Some form of reward encourages people to try PvP, and makes the added danger of flagging "worth it" during the leveling experience.

[Marty1980]

I am a 3 days new player, and would love to give my opinion about it.

First of all I am a pvper , but a friendly one. I really love the warmode idea .... if you want to stay pve , don t activate it . I see the buffing part might be a problem for PvEer that dont want to deal with pvp.

I never attack horde for any reason in the world(except to help another alliance,but if i see the fight and alliance started the fight, i will not help) , but love to have the option. I usually get attack first. I got kill quite a few time by a twink rogue level 10 that must have around 1k hp. I would prefer to see a group of horde in the same level range without being twink coming to bring war and chaos. Fair fight is always welcome. Good for that twink if he is having fun , but seriously that show 0 skill .....

and even if i am tagged pvp, i helped horde way many more time then attack them when they quest.

I think pvp can be part of a RP asset.

I think pvp will help to bring more fresh blood, we are a group of 7 players that just move to turtle wow. Some used to be on nost, we move to warmane and now moving to a place that is less elitist.

Anyway i really love what i see so far, sorry about you getting kill for buffing. But the server could really use an extra hundreds of players.

[Arishkegal]

Warmode I guess is good for the devs (more players) and good for the people that like PvP. But as Mcnair said, it changed the server as it brings a very different crowd. The sheer number of those people also has an effect. There are so many PvP flagged players that I had to change the spells I use to not accidentally get flagged, buffing other players is suddenly a risk, and escort quests are no longer possible without dealing with griefers. This change therefore does affect PvE players far more than many seem to think when suggesting "just don't take the glyph, bro." I never took the glyph, but felt chased off the server by it very quickly. Totally different scene and vibe.

Please remember this when making future changes:
"Looking for a friendly community?
Welcome to Turtle WoW. RP/PvE Vanilla server"

[Olgert]

Idk, PvP is just part of the game the same as PvE, and while we are building the ideal WoW server, we shouldn't just cut off half of the game because of some people complaining about bunch of toxic players. Adopt to the new reality with 3k+ player online (which is really good). I hope admins will improve PvP part with new features so everyone will be satisfied.

[Conundrum]

Hey buddy, I don't think you should be playing "WARCRAFT" if you dislike the WAR aspect.
You are free and welcome to join club penguin or just download VRs and hang out with all the other bubble boys out there.

Just have some common sense next time you decide to log on and write an EPOCH on such a retarded topic.

Sincerely,
Eeveryone thats not a whining scrub.

[Jongyi]

Hey buddy, I don't think you should be playing "WARCRAFT" if you dislike the WAR aspect.
You are free and welcome to join club penguin or just download VRs and hang out with all the other bubble boys out there.

Just have some common sense next time you decide to log on and write an EPOCH on such a retarded topic.

Sincerely,
Eeveryone thats not a whining scrub.

Why the hell you have to insult the people who provide feedback. Many people came here and supported the devs for PVE experience as the server was advertised heavily as RP/PVE one. If people don't get what they have advertised for, they will show dissent. Dismissing them and insulting them as whiners will only prove them as PVPers are toxic. People like you cast negative light on PVP players.
Be civil in your discussion and no need to be toxic

[Proudwell]

Hey buddy, I don't think you should be playing "WARCRAFT" if you dislike the WAR aspect.
You are free and welcome to join club penguin or just download VRs and hang out with all the other bubble boys out there.

Just have some common sense next time you decide to log on and write an EPOCH on such a retarded topic.

Sincerely,
Eeveryone thats not a whining scrub.

>Hey buddy,

Immediate indication that you've just made a post with no substance or value.

[Keegus]

Hey buddy, I don't think you should be playing "WARCRAFT" if you dislike the WAR aspect.
You are free and welcome to join club penguin or just download VRs and hang out with all the other bubble boys out there.

Just have some common sense next time you decide to log on and write an EPOCH on such a retarded topic.

Sincerely,
Eeveryone thats not a whining scrub.

This right here proves that Warmode should just be removed entirely. RP-PvE servers don't need this type of element actively ruining the design philosophy.

[Bellybutton]

Hey buddy, I don't think you should be playing "WARCRAFT" if you dislike the WAR aspect.

The Alliance and the Horde are technically not at war in Vanilla WoW.