Split hardcore and non-hardcore players

[Ghola]

This entire thread has devolved into degrading and/or insulting HC players with strawman arguments, which is a bummer

We won't be splitting HC's into a separate server anytime soon. If you think it is impossible to interact with HC players as a non-HC, you're ignoring many of the game's social avenues. You can talk, you can coordinate, you can help eachother, you can buff eachother, and you can even be in a guild together. A HC is no different than a non-HC that you don't group with, the only exception being that they may be distrustful towards you due to this very sort of "fuck the HC's" mindset.

There are nearly 12,000 HC characters. They are a large and valuable part of the overall community, and segregating them would do little good for the server while causing many issues. Both realms would look much less populated, chats would be less active, we would need to dedicate more server resources (which with our recent growth, I'd prefer not to dedicate server resources towards this), people would be yanked from their guild and friends upon hitting 60 or forced to exist in a dead realm, any many more issues.

If further replies devolve into toxicity and strawmen again, I will be locking this topic and dishing out warnings as needed. As far as I am concerned, there's not much more to say on this matter, as while we appreciate the suggestion, we do not plan to implement it.

PS: If you feel a player, HC or not, is griefing you, feel free to report it

but where does the "fuck the HC's" mindset come from? Either it's valid criticism, or it's strawmanning, but you can't just claim nobody has had bad experiences with players that is solely due to them being hardcore. The perception of hardcore players is a problem that hardcores have to deal with and not normal players, and being distrustful of normal players is no different than having a "fuck the HC's" mindset - and that relationship is not healthy for either group

[Akalix]

but where does the "fuck the HC's" mindset come from? Either it's valid criticism, or it's strawmanning, but you can't just claim nobody has had bad experiences with players that is solely due to them being hardcore. The perception of hardcore players is a problem that hardcores have to deal with and not normal players, and being distrustful of normal players is no different than having a "fuck the HC's" mindset - and that relationship is not healthy for either group

In short, it isn't valid criticism, it's strawmanning all HC players as some "big bad" who don't have the ability to chat or otherwise participate socially and only steal tags, which is blatantly wrong.

The "fuck the HC's" mindset comes from people who are unhappy that they aren't able to group and share everything, or people who are unhappy that HC's didn't try saving them from dying to something. That's just a part of the game.

There is a significant difference between HCs distrusting regular players and regular players claiming HC's need to be removed from the server and put elsewhere. They stem from entirely different reasons: those being bitterness because you can't group with someone versus legitimate caution and playing wisely. There is an inherent different level of risk in any combat interaction between HC and non-HC: If a regular player pulls 5 mobs and dies, oh well. If the HC tries to help and dies, they can lose weeks of progress. There have been numerous HC deaths caused by non-HC's pulling mobs into HC AoE and dying/dropping aggro. That's not just a strawman, that's something numerous people have encountered and lost weeks of time to--and will continue to with oblivious new players accidentally doing similar things.

The overall "fuck the HC's" mindset is one I have almost exclusively seen within this thread, which leads me to feel it is more of a situation of a few spited players rather than a valid concern or problem for the server.

[Ghola]

but where does the "fuck the HC's" mindset come from? Either it's valid criticism, or it's strawmanning, but you can't just claim nobody has had bad experiences with players that is solely due to them being hardcore. The perception of hardcore players is a problem that hardcores have to deal with and not normal players, and being distrustful of normal players is no different than having a "fuck the HC's" mindset - and that relationship is not healthy for either group

In short, it isn't valid criticism, it's strawmanning all HC players as some "big bad" who don't have the ability to chat or otherwise participate socially and only steal tags, which is blatantly wrong.

The "fuck the HC's" mindset comes from people who are unhappy that they aren't able to group and share everything, or people who are unhappy that HC's didn't try saving them from dying to something. That's just a part of the game.

There is a significant difference between HCs distrusting regular players and regular players claiming HC's need to be removed from the server and put elsewhere. They stem from entirely different reasons: those being bitterness because you can't group with someone versus legitimate caution and playing wisely. There is an inherent different level of risk in any combat interaction between HC and non-HC: If a regular player pulls 5 mobs and dies, oh well. If the HC tries to help and dies, they can lose weeks of progress. There have been numerous HC deaths caused by non-HC's pulling mobs into HC AoE and dying/dropping aggro. That's not just a strawman, that's something numerous people have encountered and lost weeks of time to--and will continue to with oblivious new players accidentally doing similar things.

The overall "fuck the HC's" mindset is one I have almost exclusively seen within this thread, which leads me to feel it is more of a situation of a few spited players rather than a valid concern or problem for the server.

I think saying that it's exclusive to this thread is short sighted. I am in a large leveling guild of almost exclusively players new to the server and there is almost a daily rant about not being able to group with hardcore players. I'm not suggesting they be added to a different server, I think you are correct in that being far too drastic and destructive. However, these complaints will continue to fester as all it takes is one bad interaction to sour your experience of hardcores, as ignorant as that viewpoint may be. Even if this mindset was corrected, hardcores would still view normal players with distrust due to accidental aoe pulls as you said. I personally don't mind hardcores past level 30 as I rarely see them, but before level 30 your chances of having an interaction with one is high, and low level hardcores are more than likely not going to be eventual immortals. Your first impression of these hardcores will likely stick with you a long time.

My own personal first impression of hardcores was pulling a boar only to be told by a hardcore that "That was the last boar I needed. I hope your parent's die of cancer". On the next character I made, a hardcore followed behind me throughout the dungeon just to tag the quest mob at the end without having to clear the cave. Yes, these are both situations that could have happened with any player, but my first impression of normal players on the server was a helpful and kind community.

[Ghola]

"it's strawmanning all HC players as some "big bad" who don't have the ability to chat or otherwise participate socially and only steal tags"

Also, this is a strawman in itself. There are plenty of people who are aware that hardcore players can be talked to, and buffed, and can help/be helped in other ways. I just find the very fact that they cannot group "because hardcore" to be distasteful, that's really all there is to it. I prefer to do quests as a group when there's another player around and if they don't want to group and want to compete for my tags my response is exactly the same, fuck em' I'll do my own thing. If they want to talk or buff me I would just ask why they don't want to group and quest faster.

[Mac]

but where does the "fuck the HC's" mindset come from? Either it's valid criticism, or it's strawmanning, but you can't just claim nobody has had bad experiences with players that is solely due to them being hardcore. The perception of hardcore players is a problem that hardcores have to deal with and not normal players, and being distrustful of normal players is no different than having a "fuck the HC's" mindset - and that relationship is not healthy for either group

In short, it isn't valid criticism, it's strawmanning all HC players as some "big bad" who don't have the ability to chat or otherwise participate socially and only steal tags, which is blatantly wrong.

The "fuck the HC's" mindset comes from people who are unhappy that they aren't able to group and share everything, or people who are unhappy that HC's didn't try saving them from dying to something. That's just a part of the game.

There is a significant difference between HCs distrusting regular players and regular players claiming HC's need to be removed from the server and put elsewhere. They stem from entirely different reasons: those being bitterness because you can't group with someone versus legitimate caution and playing wisely. There is an inherent different level of risk in any combat interaction between HC and non-HC: If a regular player pulls 5 mobs and dies, oh well. If the HC tries to help and dies, they can lose weeks of progress. There have been numerous HC deaths caused by non-HC's pulling mobs into HC AoE and dying/dropping aggro. That's not just a strawman, that's something numerous people have encountered and lost weeks of time to--and will continue to with oblivious new players accidentally doing similar things.

The overall "fuck the HC's" mindset is one I have almost exclusively seen within this thread, which leads me to feel it is more of a situation of a few spited players rather than a valid concern or problem for the server.

I’ve definitely seen people trash talk and hate on hardcores in game.

[Versidue]

Hmm

I think rather than splitting the playerbase, most of the tensions could be eliminated by allowing hardcore players to group with normal players, as long as they are within 5 levels of them. EDIT: But not for instances! Overworld questing only.

This would encourage much more positive casual interactions, while still keeping cheesing to a minimum. Still no auction house, still no trading, just peaceful sharing of quest mobs. And it would discourage toxic interactions somewhat, since you would be alienating a potential future ally.

[Mac]

If you let hardcore and normals group, tensions will rise the moment a group wipes.

[Versidue]

That's true, but it already happens. When a random normal player "causes" a hardcore player to die, they tend to get angry. This at least would mitigate some of the conflict.

[Ghola]

If you let hardcore and normals group, tensions will rise the moment a group wipes.

you have to be trying to wipe on a group quest

[Mac]

If you let hardcore and normals group, tensions will rise the moment a group wipes.

you have to be trying to wipe on a group quest

Yeah, it's possible to wipe on a group quest.

That's true, but it already happens. When a random normal player "causes" a hardcore player to die, they tend to get angry. This at least would mitigate some of the conflict.

I don't think it will mitigate any of the conflict when you have hardcores accusing normals they grouped with of wiping on purpose or through sheer incompetence. Like I said, that's going to make things worse.

[Kichma]

Get to higher lvls, you wont see em around you that much anymore :)

[Versidue]

I don't think it will mitigate any of the conflict when you have hardcores accusing normals they grouped with of wiping on purpose or through sheer incompetence. Like I said, that's going to make things worse.

I simply disagree! I think a huge part of the problem is that because players are artificially separated, you have to go out of your way to have a positive interaction. For a hardcore and a normal player to deliberately cooperate, one or both players have to sacrifice some time, waiting around for mobs to respawn. It's understandable that people don't necessarily want to commit to basically completing a quest twice, but it's going to foster resentment on both sides. Even for level-headed players, this resentment is going to make you view the other side in a less-favorable light. And then anything they do will make you angrier than it should.

Some people are always going to be mad, and react disproportionately to dying. But I genuinely think that encouraging frequent, positive interactions between hardcore and normal players as they quest together will go a long way towards reducing resentment, and hopefully making people less likely to explode.

[Citizenkane]

After Akalix's first post, I was content to have resigned to the devs' decision on the matter. However, his subsequent posts have unveiled fallacies that cannot be ignored.

I take particular issue with his statement "This entire thread has devolved into degrading and/or insulting HC players with strawman arguments". This is not only untrue, but also extremely unhelpful to the discussion. Most of the pro-split posters here have merely shared anecdotes, i.e. the very reason they are pro-split. (Though not every reason takes the form of a negative experience.) Nevertheless, the thread has indeed devloved. Mostly by a certain texture pack dev who tells anyone that disagrees with his views that the problem lies with them.

It sounds more like they, for whatever reason, bother you and thus you feel we should alienate them when there is plenty of interaction you can have with them even with the restrictions.

It's a you problem. As I said before, you're going to have to deal with it. It's not happening.
<-- break between sentences -->
They are not antisocial. You are.

As it stands, most of the pro-splitters have put forth their case respectfully, only to have thier arguments slandered as insults and strawmen (by the 2 most vocal dissenters). I must also add that most of the anit-splitters have been respectful, such as Phoenixphire.

[Akalix]

After Akalix's first post, I was content to have resigned to the devs' decision on the matter. However, his subsequent posts have unveiled fallacies that cannot be ignored.

I take particular issue with his statement "This entire thread has devolved into degrading and/or insulting HC players with strawman arguments". This is not only untrue, but also extremely unhelpful to the discussion. Most of the pro-split posters here have merely shared anecdotes, i.e. the very reason they are pro-split. (Though not every reason takes the form of a negative experience.) Nevertheless, the thread has indeed devloved. Mostly by a certain texture pack dev who tells anyone that disagrees with his views that the problem lies with them.

It sounds more like they, for whatever reason, bother you and thus you feel we should alienate them when there is plenty of interaction you can have with them even with the restrictions.

It's a you problem. As I said before, you're going to have to deal with it. It's not happening.
<-- break between sentences -->
They are not antisocial. You are.

As it stands, most of the pro-splitters have put forth their case respectfully, only to have thier arguments slandered as insults and strawmen (by the 2 most vocal dissenters). I must also add that most of the anit-splitters have been respectful, such as Phoenixphire.

"it's strawmanning all HC players as some "big bad" who don't have the ability to chat or otherwise participate socially and only steal tags"

Also, this is a strawman in itself. There are plenty of people who are aware that hardcore players can be talked to, and buffed, and can help/be helped in other ways. I just find the very fact that they cannot group "because hardcore" to be distasteful, that's really all there is to it. I prefer to do quests as a group when there's another player around and if they don't want to group and want to compete for my tags my response is exactly the same, fuck em' I'll do my own thing. If they want to talk or buff me I would just ask why they don't want to group and quest faster.

To quote someone directly from this thread, "single-player NPC's is exactly what they are." I would consider that a strawman, at best. Neither side is being civil at this point

We will not be splitting the player-base in the near future as it has the potential to massively damage the community and player experience and would increase the load on the server as it would require an entire 2nd world.

We're all Turtle players, HC or NC. I'll be locking the thread, as it's only encouraging tribalism. Remember, we're all here for a good time and all want what is best for the server

[Akalix]

Thread unlocked as time has passed for folks to cool down, though the team's plans have not changed--we do not intend on adding a new realm or otherwise segmenting the playerbase anytime soon.

[Drezzy95]

Never had any problems or even spared a thought to HC players and, in fact, I buff them or help them when I can. Hell I had a level 53 HC help me with an elite quest on my level 24 alt earlier today when no one else would come help.

There is absolutely 0 reason to arbitrarily segregate these players beyond the existing mechanical restrictions. It sounds more like they, for whatever reason, bother you and thus you feel we should alienate them when there is plenty of interaction you can have with them even with the restrictions.

Also agree with redmagejoe, i had no problem finding a group for quest and dungeons im lvl 51

[Kremmen]

I think allowing hardcore players to party up with normals within five levels of them is a good compromise. When the game actively encourages you to form impromptu groups with people doing the same quests it doesn't make much sense to have a subset of players completely incapable of doing that outside of themselves. Separating them into another realm is going way too far, but as it stands now they're practically playing on another realm with the caveat that they have to share the same worldspace with normal mode players.

[Sinrek]

Hardcore only realm would be pretty barren and a half if not even more unexplored. Raids essentially never touched … as much as I'd like to play on one, the TWoW team won't split the player base.

[Mac]

About a third of the players play hardcore. Hard to say the server would be barren when it's a mode a lot of people love. As for raids, you do those when you hit 60 and get auto transferred back to the main server.

[Tc137]

what a stupid suggestion.. sorry but thats so dumb

[Shamma]

I like HC. What I find weird is - why is nobody comparing HC to how in WoW you have always had 2 factions - horde and alliance. Well you have that here HC and normal toons. Again 2 factions. Animosity between factions - it is the name of the game in WoW. So easy to see at least for me.

Has Alliance ever asked to ship all Horde characters to another server?

[Mac]

I like HC. What I find weird is - why is nobody comparing HC to how in WoW you have always had 2 factions - horde and alliance. Well you have that here HC and normal toons. Again 2 factions. Animosity between factions - it is the name of the game in WoW. So easy to see at least for me.

Has Alliance ever asked to ship all Horde characters to another server?

Difference being that Horde and Alliance typically are divided. Different zones, different quests. You aren’t competing with an orc player for some NPC in the human starting zone for instance. There also is supposed to be some animosity between the two opposing factions, sort of makes sense lore wise, whereas there isn’t really meant to be animosity between players of the same faction.

And yes, when a server heavily favors one faction, players ask for balance.

[Kindredsoul]

Could hardcore players have the option of a separate instance with hardcores only or choose to remain in ones with softcore players

[Shamma]

It was a rhethorical question "Has Alliance ever asked to ship all Horde characters to another server?" ofc they have.

I know it is not the same, but in my eyes the division HC/normal has many similarities with alliance/horde.

The technology for instancing/sharding/phasing is not a part of turtle wow. The world in turtle wow is not instanced.

[Redmagejoe]

I refuse to believe anyone in this thread has ever had a prolonged incident with a hardcore character. Maybe one instance of a quest mob, maybe even a minute or two as you two try to disengage from the particular area that quest or entity existed in. But I scoff at the idea that you've both been in the exact same area doing all the exact same quests for minutes to an hour+

Talk about a minor inconvenience. I make this supposition because after months of playing this game across multiple characters, I can safely say that I have only had maybe a handful of forgettable, throwaway instances like this which were comparable to another party or person who for some strange reason refuses to party and cooperate on any other server. It did not bring me to my knees crying to the heavens that god had forsaken me, and to make all the invalidates be banished to the Shadow Realm.

Could you all possibly be more entitled or overreact more?

[Testaccount995]

Reading this level of perversion towards hardcore players makes me wonder.
If the softcore community that I will forcibly join [edit: and was looking forward to joining] at 60 is this toxic, then TWOW may not be for me.

[Mac]

Reading this level of perversion towards hardcore players makes me wonder.
If the softcore community that I will forcibly join [edit: and was looking forward to joining] at 60 is this toxic, then TWOW may not be for me.

This thread is pretty tame compared to what goes on in-game whenever I play one of my hardcore characters. At least nobody here is trying to get your character killed in this thread, or whining when your character hits a milestone because "hardcores just do grey quests and kill green mobs" (meanwhile, when a group of hardcores die in a dungeon, they laugh and call them idiots for, you know, actually challenging themselves and not just going for an easy title and mount).

[Fin]

Thread closed to avoid degenerating again because people keep spreading misleading information

The following listed behaviors are found in the general mmorpg player behavior and they have nothing to do with the hardcore and softcore community. It can happen from softcore<->softcore and hardcore<->hardcore in every mmorpg:

- players refusing to group together for a objective and having to compete towards the objective
- players having different play styles and being competitive towards who's is better.

Softcore players can get softcore players killed when competing for a objective as well. So can hardcore players towards other hardcore players. Accident's can happen, not everything is planned ahead and intended.

If you claim x play style is correct there can always be someone that can tell you why it's not. Don't take other player's opinion as personal attacks.

Those experience are rare and most people never encounter them. When they happen, those situations are best solved by being lighthearted about it and communicating in a polite manner.

Moderation cases should be sent to the GM's, not attributed to random factors such as: I'm hardcore, he is softcore.