A better discussion about ways to improve Warmode

[Stoogeville]

So, the issue of Warmode has been going back and forth for an eternity; and the arguments are still as heated as ever. Tweaks to Warmode have been slept on for a very long time; and after a year (ish? I can’t remember) of near-daily fights on /world, we’ve seen some (glancing) responses to the issue.


Currently, we need a better version of Warmode - for the sake of the PvP players, PvE players, Roleplayers, and even the devs themselves. Unfortunately, the developers have been, admittedly… less than satisfactory when it comes to asking the players about big changes, or planning an elegant solution before they institute it. But they’re getting better!


“Warmode is a choice”

I know this will be said at least once in here. I’m sorry, but saying this just isn’t helping! It’s not wrong, but at the same time, there are still many valid criticisms to the way Warmode works, and its presence of the server.


I also know there are already threads about this (hell, I’ve made my own whiny one before), and I’m sure all the following points have been touched on at some point, but I want to create a purely productive and cohesive space – not somewhere to vent frustration for either side, or rehash old arguments, but somewhere that we can put forward all the possible options, and specifically discuss the finer points on how to make Warmode great for everybody.



There are a few issues to consider:

> Lack of PvP between levels 20-59
A big driver for Warmode. Quite a few people have mentioned that a cause could be the difficulty of finding BG’s while levelling, which is itself an issue that needs to be addressed.

> HC characters want an extra PvP challenge, but just end up getting ganked
The dangers of Vanilla can be anticipated, and responded to; the dangers of world PvP often cannot. A more balanced Warmode would keep the tension, but give HC players a better chance to respond.

> WoW’s PvP is, by nature, unbalanced.
Should go without saying; With the power incline of an RPG, It’s exceptionally rare that you’ll be perfectly matched in gear, level, or skill with players you see out in the wild.

> Risk of accidental flagging
With increased numbers of players PvP, comes an increased risk of things like accidental flagging, or misclicking. Yes, it happens! It would be wise to impliment mechanics that prevent players from accidentally enabling PvP.


So, considering these issues, here are some of the suggestions I’ve heard or found:

RESTRICT WARMODE PVP

There are a few ways to do this; but, essentially, this would institute a mechanic that disallows attacking players with Warmode activated outside of X-amount of levels from the player – creating a similar bracket to that of HC characters, to help keep PvP as balanced and fair as it can be.
This would also mean that people who PvP flag manually, without having Warmode, would still be able to fight players outside of the level range. Of course, this wouldn’t prevent accidental buffing etc, and buffing PvP-active or Warmode players is essential with mixed-status groups – not perfect, but it’s not a bad compromise, all things considered.
It also wouldn’t prevent the creation of gank-based twinks, which is essentially a branch of the problem that we’re trying to fix be trying to avoid with Warmode – something that works on PvP servers, but isn’t what a PvE server’s Warmode should be intended for.


SEPARATE PVP SERVER

This was once an unthinkable idea; Now that the population of Turtle WoW has blossomed, it’s becoming more and more feasible as the server grows. A PVP server would allow for the same fun as open-PvP servers have (giant wars, a good place for the slew of PvP-RP guilds), so that PvP players can still enjoy Turtle’s features, and allow PvE players to keep their own chill space. It would also help take some of the load off the server mechanics (freeing up nodes, depopulating starting areas, etc.). The downside, of course, is segmenting the community – this might create cross-realm tension, and it also might leave the population a little lop-sided.


TWEAK BATTLEGROUNDS

There have been some points made about how the lack of people in Battlegrounds through the levels have made Warmode a necessity for getting some optional PvP into Turtle. There have also been suggestions as to how to bolster middle-to-late brackets to make battlegrounds more populous, such as:
- Doubling the number of level brackets in BG’s; cutting off at increments of 5
- Adding a nice slew of level-based PvP usable items and rewards, to encourage more people.
- Adding bonus XP gain for BG’s
- Adding level 1-9 BG’s, so Warmode characters can…. nuff said
This is technically separate from Warmode; but it would be fruitful to also address ways we can increase the amount of players in BG’s while levelling.


REMOVE/TWEAK WARMODE REWARDS

A lot of people mention that it’s odd to offer a 30% XP increase for Warmode, and is converse to the intent – urging people who don’t enjoy PvP to activate Warmode. Completely removing the reward isn’t a very good option; but there are still plenty of ways to better reward players who choose to participate – such as similar milestone awards to Slow & Steady. This would at least be a better way to urge only the people truly committed to PvP to join Warmode.


REMOVE WARMODE

This is far from ideal, and I believe it might be an assumption of what PvE players want. Warmode was instituted because many players, both PvP and PvE, wanted a distinct way to engage in PvP while playing. I doubt this will happen, and it shouldn’t, but I’m mentioning it for the sake of inclusion.


BAN/PENALISE OBSESSIVE CAMPERS

This seems to be the current answer to the problem of Warmode. It is a nice thought; but it’s also a solution that puts further strain on the work that moderators have to do to keep the community clean from toxicity. However, it does certainly address perhaps the most negative aspect of PvP on Turtle – dedicated and malicious ganking – which is a long-standing issue, and certainly something that our community can do without. Ideally, it would work in tandem with other tweaks to Warmode, to ensure that we don’t continue to have issues like we have had with -certain players-...



A lot of these subjects assume differentiation between 'equal' PvP, and ganking. While I know there are many players who -like- to engage in PvP with the risk of ganking specifically involved, for the feeling of tension it brings, I think that this kind of PvP is best left to PvP-oriented servers. We are (or should be) trying to make Warmode something that functions for the server as a whole; not for the desires of certain players. Not only this, but a more equal Warmode would make Turtle stand out even further from other servers, bringing a unique slant on WoW’s PvP that you can’t really find anywhere else.


So, there’s the big long post. I’m hoping that people come into this discussion to help introduce or expand upon new ways to make Warmode as close to perfect, and as encompassing, as possible. Please – if you’re not in here to have a discussion, there are many other places to voice your frustration or subjective opinions and desires. Let’s keep this one as clean as we can.


One last note to the devs - I'm guessing somebody will eventually come in saying, "We're discussing warmode/we've got ideas on what to do." - but, before you resign youself to that, listen to the players! Keep your mind open, yeah? Some of us have got some genuinely good suggestions. This was one of the biggest problems with Blizzard - they only listened to each other!

Also, I’ll be editing this post for posterity to add any good suggestions that come up. If you're a PvP player with suggestions, your input is invaluable to this discussion! Tell us what problems you've percieved, or the solutions you've thought of.

[Hombrehongo]

PvP has always been a problem for MMOs and WoW is no exeption. There are several problems with PvP in WoW.

-Most world PvP encounters are extremely one sided. 2v1, lvl difference, etc.
-Cities have lackluster defence so a lvl 60 can go and gank people in goldshire, xroads, etc pretty much unimpeaded.
-Battlegrounds being the most balanced place for pvp offer little to no rewards so most people dont bother.
-The respawning system invites camping.
-Killable npc invites griefing.


This problems plaged wow since forever and it cant be completely solved becouse the game works this way. Some solutions exist like making all quest giving npcs not killable but it wont solve the mayor problems. The problem is the game itself and the way it was created that is why PvP servers always fall to toxicity.

Making BGs much more worth while to warmode players is the best option imo. Giving warmode players the ability to gain good xp and rewards from BGs will populate them and keep them in a more balanced embiroment. This will also divide the population to ppl that do BGs and ppl that do quests.
For every solution there is a downside i think. Warmode as it is now is not working and a partial solution is better than no solution.

[Gantulga]

The buff to city guards sits very wrong with me. PvP is already almost non-existing on this server, so why make it even worse?

Why not start by tackling the actual issue, which is the 30% EXP boost? As long as that exists, warmode will continue to attract players who only enable it for faster leveling, and they seem to be a vocal minority crying wolf.
I'd rather not have any bonus at all since PvP should exist for its own sake, but if there absolutely has to be one, then why not make it actually PvP-related? BG reputation gain from open-world kills would actually provide something unique and interesting. When was the last time you saw somebody with WSG/AB reputation gear while leveling? It may as well just not exist.

Also, HC and PvP is just a very stupid mix to begin with. Do not cater to players who choose to purposely handicap themselves.

[Jongyi]

One of the suggestion would be to give 30% exp boost to another PVE mode.
Or if an account have L.v60 character, give exp boost to the alts. something like that

[Valadorn]

One of the suggestion would be to give 30% exp boost to another PVE mode.
Or if an account have L.v60 character, give exp boost to the alts. something like that

Are u also suggesting to add donor coins and fashion coins to a pvp mode ? So everyone can have everything and make it "fair" ? Since currently slow and steady gives alot of those.

[Stoogeville]

One of the suggestion would be to give 30% exp boost to another PVE mode.
Or if an account have L.v60 character, give exp boost to the alts. something like that

Are u also suggesting to add donor coins and fashion coins to a pvp mode ? So everyone can have everything and make it "fair" ? Since currently slow and steady gives alot of those.

I would personally recommend rewards over XP gains; even in a general sense. Who wouldn't like to get a funky baller tabard and pet, to show off their bravery?

PvP has always been a problem for MMOs and WoW is no exeption. There are several problems with PvP in WoW.

-Most world PvP encounters are extremely one sided. 2v1, lvl difference, etc.
-Cities have lackluster defence so a lvl 60 can go and gank people in goldshire, xroads, etc pretty much unimpeaded.
-Battlegrounds being the most balanced place for pvp offer little to no rewards so most people dont bother.
-The respawning system invites camping.
-Killable npc invites griefing.


This problems plaged wow since forever and it cant be completely solved becouse the game works this way. Some solutions exist like making all quest giving npcs not killable but it wont solve the mayor problems. The problem is the game itself and the way it was created that is why PvP servers always fall to toxicity.

Making BGs much more worth while to warmode players is the best option imo. Giving warmode players the ability to gain good xp and rewards from BGs will populate them and keep them in a more balanced embiroment. This will also divide the population to ppl that do BGs and ppl that do quests.
For every solution there is a downside i think. Warmode as it is now is not working and a partial solution is better than no solution.

Some nice points there. City defense is an absolutely fantastic one - aditional/stronger guards would ensure that gankers are all but prevented inside the safety of towns (which is logical), while proper organized raides would become absolutely epic, and at once quite easy to notice and avoid.

There's nothing saying we can't have multiple fixes, though; I strongly believe that the mechanics of Warmode could do with a few well-reasoned tweaks.

[Stoogeville]

One of the suggestion would be to give 30% exp boost to another PVE mode.
Or if an account have L.v60 character, give exp boost to the alts. something like that

After thinking about this a little, I think you might be onto something. Can you imagine a mode that makes players significantly less tough/effective (requiring groups, or very careful playing), but also jacks up the XP rewards just as much, so that you're still keeping up with the levellers?

An idea for another thread, but a very interesting idea nonetheless!

[Jongyi]

One of the suggestion would be to give 30% exp boost to another PVE mode.
Or if an account have L.v60 character, give exp boost to the alts. something like that

After thinking about this a little, I think you might be onto something. Can you imagine a mode that makes players significantly less tough/effective (requiring groups, or very careful playing), but also jacks up the XP rewards just as much, so that you're still keeping up with the levellers?

An idea for another thread, but a very interesting idea nonetheless!

Maybe like how Ascension WoW have done their nightmare mode.
You gain 30% bonus exp, but you get 20% more damage from mobs. I think risk and reward kind of balance each other in something like this.
It might also encourage (or forces) that mode participants to party each other so they would have less corpse run.
Just some idea

[Elladar]

I think most problems would be solved by :

-allowing wpvp only between players of 5 levels difference + or - : this would disable cringe lvl 60 gankers
-disabling the hit chance reduction on a higher level player when youre lower. This would greatly reduce the advantage of twink gankers by giving a chance to the ganked to escape by using cc

[Jongyi]

One of the suggestion would be to give 30% exp boost to another PVE mode.
Or if an account have L.v60 character, give exp boost to the alts. something like that

Are u also suggesting to add donor coins and fashion coins to a pvp mode ? So everyone can have everything and make it "fair" ? Since currently slow and steady gives alot of those.

I would personally recommend rewards over XP gains; even in a general sense. Who wouldn't like to get a funky baller tabard and pet, to show off their bravery?

PvP has always been a problem for MMOs and WoW is no exeption. There are several problems with PvP in WoW.

-Most world PvP encounters are extremely one sided. 2v1, lvl difference, etc.
-Cities have lackluster defence so a lvl 60 can go and gank people in goldshire, xroads, etc pretty much unimpeaded.
-Battlegrounds being the most balanced place for pvp offer little to no rewards so most people dont bother.
-The respawning system invites camping.
-Killable npc invites griefing.


This problems plaged wow since forever and it cant be completely solved becouse the game works this way. Some solutions exist like making all quest giving npcs not killable but it wont solve the mayor problems. The problem is the game itself and the way it was created that is why PvP servers always fall to toxicity.

Making BGs much more worth while to warmode players is the best option imo. Giving warmode players the ability to gain good xp and rewards from BGs will populate them and keep them in a more balanced embiroment. This will also divide the population to ppl that do BGs and ppl that do quests.
For every solution there is a downside i think. Warmode as it is now is not working and a partial solution is better than no solution.

Some nice points there. City defense is an absolutely fantastic one - aditional/stronger guards would ensure that gankers are all but prevented inside the safety of towns (which is logical), while proper organized raides would become absolutely epic, and at once quite easy to notice and avoid.

There's nothing saying we can't have multiple fixes, though; I strongly believe that the mechanics of Warmode could do with a few well-reasoned tweaks.

Mist of Pandaria basically does this. They have six to nine L.v90 elite guards patrolling the elwynn forest and goldshire all the time. And they hit like truck. A couple of max level gankers will have their asses handed to these guards if they try to gank goldshire. Gankers would need organized raid party to kill these types of guards
Devs should copy this from Blizz of Mop era

[Tenant]

BG reputation gain from open-world kills would actually provide something unique and interesting.

So that there's even less BGs than now?

Who wouldn't like to get a funky baller tabard and pet, to show off their bravery?

I wouldn't.

PvP has always been a problem for MMOs and WoW is no exeption. There are several problems with PvP in WoW.

-Most world PvP encounters are extremely one sided. 2v1, lvl difference, etc.
-Cities have lackluster defence so a lvl 60 can go and gank people in goldshire, xroads, etc pretty much unimpeaded.
-Battlegrounds being the most balanced place for pvp offer little to no rewards so most people dont bother.
-The respawning system invites camping.
-Killable npc invites griefing.


This problems plaged wow since forever and it cant be completely solved becouse the game works this way. Some solutions exist like making all quest giving npcs not killable but it wont solve the mayor problems. The problem is the game itself and the way it was created that is why PvP servers always fall to toxicity.

Making BGs much more worth while to warmode players is the best option imo. Giving warmode players the ability to gain good xp and rewards from BGs will populate them and keep them in a more balanced embiroment. This will also divide the population to ppl that do BGs and ppl that do quests.
For every solution there is a downside i think. Warmode as it is now is not working and a partial solution is better than no solution.

1. Warmode is a specific effort to encourage World PvP. Do not bring BGs into this. BGs are already full of "Let them win, let's go next, I just need to grind my rep".
2. Camping and griefing are not warmode issues.

You gain 30% bonus exp, but you get 20% more damage from mobs. I think risk and reward kind of balance each other in something like this.
It might also encourage (or forces) that mode participants to party each other so they would have less corpse run.
Just some idea

It is a nice idea, although I think that you'll just get more of the whining: "I don't want 20% more damage, but I want more xp".

Bottom line is, there's no reward that PvE players will not want, unless it's useless, like a tabard or a pet.

[Stoogeville]

One of the suggestion would be to give 30% exp boost to another PVE mode.
Or if an account have L.v60 character, give exp boost to the alts. something like that

After thinking about this a little, I think you might be onto something. Can you imagine a mode that makes players significantly less tough/effective (requiring groups, or very careful playing), but also jacks up the XP rewards just as much, so that you're still keeping up with the levellers?

An idea for another thread, but a very interesting idea nonetheless!

Maybe like how Ascension WoW have done their nightmare mode.
You gain 30% bonus exp, but you get 20% more damage from mobs. I think risk and reward kind of balance each other in something like this.
It might also encourage (or forces) that mode participants to party each other so they would have less corpse run.
Just some idea

Oooh. So, how well does it work for Ascention mode? Are there any specific tweaks/additions that you think would be good in addition to this?

I think most problems would be solved by :

-allowing wpvp only between players of 5 levels difference + or - : this would disable cringe lvl 60 gankers
-disabling the hit chance reduction on a higher level player when youre lower. This would greatly reduce the advantage of twink gankers by giving a chance to the ganked to escape by using cc

Most people seem to agree; but it's nice to get some suggestions out there. Especially if they help parallel problems.

[Adunai]

-Cities have lackluster defence so a lvl 60 can go and gank people in goldshire, xroads, etc pretty much unimpeaded.

This is a half-decent suggestion. Although it might damage world PvP overall, and that would be bad, because world PvP is already barely alive.

Making BGs much more worth while to warmode players is the best option imo.

That would draw players from the world, thus deceasing the liveliness of the open world, and damaging the world PvP scene.

Personally, my view would be to create faction-exclusive PvP guilds who would respond to danger and gank the gankers. Isn't it an MMO, and isn't this Warcraft, not Peacecaft? Another good suggestion - make the zone defence chat channels faction-exclusive, it's a terrible oversight that they are shared.

Another suggestion - make a PvP-only zone, or add PvP objectives to the existing zones.

[Aszura]

Remove the XP boost.

[Xgaldarx]

The buff to city guards sits very wrong with me. PvP is already almost non-existing on this server, so why make it even worse?

And what is wrong with this? I remind you that Turtle is a PVE-RP server - generally if you want world pvp you go to dedicated pvp servers, not try to transform pve into one.

Ultimately, if one try to please everyone, they please no one...

And if you absolutely must have to have world pvp then imo the most important thing is to disable forced flagging - make it that only flagged chars interact with flagged chars and to become flagged you HAVE to manually enable pvp.

[Stoogeville]

-Cities have lackluster defence so a lvl 60 can go and gank people in goldshire, xroads, etc pretty much unimpeaded.

This is a half-decent suggestion. Although it might damage world PvP overall, and that would be bad, because world PvP is already barely alive.

Making BGs much more worth while to warmode players is the best option imo.

That would draw players from the world, thus deceasing the liveliness of the open world, and damaging the world PvP scene.

Personally, my view would be to create faction-exclusive PvP guilds who would respond to danger and gank the gankers. Isn't it an MMO, and isn't this Warcraft, not Peacecaft? Another good suggestion - make the zone defence chat channels faction-exclusive, it's a terrible oversight that they are shared.

Another suggestion - make a PvP-only zone, or add PvP objectives to the existing zones.

Yes, better PvP channels would be a must, going forward. I would've agreed with you about the sparsity of PvP many months ago; but now, it's everywhere, and there seems to be a pretty fair split between people that are flagged and not.

There currently are a great deal of PvP-faction guilds. However, as people have often said, ganks will very often occur for many hours without anybody coming to help. At a risk, I would say attacks are left alone more often than not; I'm not sure why not, but relying on the availability of people to provide defense is just not something we can expect from the residents of Turtle WoW.

The buff to city guards sits very wrong with me. PvP is already almost non-existing on this server, so why make it even worse?

And what is wrong with this? I remind you that Turtle is a PVE-RP server - generally if you want world pvp you go to dedicated pvp servers, not try to transform pve into one.

Ultimately, if one try to please everyone, they please no one...

And if you absolutely must have to have world pvp then imo the most important thing is to disable forced flagging - make it that only flagged chars interact with flagged chars and to become flagged you HAVE to manually enable pvp.

Okay, let's not devolve! You can't please everyone; but everyone can accept to certain concessions that will please as many people as possible, as greatly as possible. That's what we're trying to do here, yes?

This is a good point on the forced flagging. People have said that accidental buffing or attacking of flagged players is a real frustration, and with the prevalence of PvP has reduced how likely people are to instinctively buff passers-by. I can only imagine how touchy it would feel to be a HC toon, running around with such hairline risks of a sudden death.

People have suggested that a good way to do this, is to refuse non-flagged players to buff flagged ones while outside of their group - instead, buffing themselves if they try. It would be a little more difficult to reduce the risk of accidentally attacking players... Though, you could institute some kind of "at war" mechanic that works for players; either manually toggled, or locked to your own status of PvP (meaning, players would have to flag themselves in order to attack, or buff other PvPers.)

[Tenant]

I remind you that Turtle is a PVE-RP server - generally if you want world pvp you go to dedicated pvp servers, not try to transform pve into one.

I guess I'll remind you that PVE-RP doesn't mean that there's no world pvp. It just means that you have to opt-in for it. Which is what warmode does.

This is a good point on the forced flagging. People have said that accidental buffing or attacking of flagged players is a real frustration, and with the prevalence of PvP has reduced how likely people are to instinctively buff passers-by. I can only imagine how touchy it would feel to be a HC toon, running around with such hairline risks of a sudden death.

And that has nothing to do with warmode.

[Stoogeville]

I remind you that Turtle is a PVE-RP server - generally if you want world pvp you go to dedicated pvp servers, not try to transform pve into one.

I guess I'll remind you that PVE-RP doesn't mean that there's no world pvp. It just means that you have to opt-in for it. Which is what warmode does.

This is a good point on the forced flagging. People have said that accidental buffing or attacking of flagged players is a real frustration, and with the prevalence of PvP has reduced how likely people are to instinctively buff passers-by. I can only imagine how touchy it would feel to be a HC toon, running around with such hairline risks of a sudden death.

And that has nothing to do with warmode.

If I may say, you don't seem to be particularly engaged in the idea of this thread, nor open discussion in general. I don't think the issue here is whether topics or ideas can be very strictly placed under the heading of "Warmode"; saying nothing for how different game elements interconnect both mechanically or in terms of the game experience.

Maybe there is another thread that your thoughts might be better placed in?

[Jongyi]

After thinking about this a little, I think you might be onto something. Can you imagine a mode that makes players significantly less tough/effective (requiring groups, or very careful playing), but also jacks up the XP rewards just as much, so that you're still keeping up with the levellers?

An idea for another thread, but a very interesting idea nonetheless!

Maybe like how Ascension WoW have done their nightmare mode.
You gain 30% bonus exp, but you get 20% more damage from mobs. I think risk and reward kind of balance each other in something like this.
It might also encourage (or forces) that mode participants to party each other so they would have less corpse run.
Just some idea

Oooh. So, how well does it work for Ascention mode? Are there any specific tweaks/additions that you think would be good in addition to this?

I think most problems would be solved by :

-allowing wpvp only between players of 5 levels difference + or - : this would disable cringe lvl 60 gankers
-disabling the hit chance reduction on a higher level player when youre lower. This would greatly reduce the advantage of twink gankers by giving a chance to the ganked to escape by using cc

Most people seem to agree; but it's nice to get some suggestions out there. Especially if they help parallel problems.

In Ascension there is nightmare mode where you take 200% more damage from mobs and 300% from enemy spells. It gives you gold, max level heroic dungeon gears and very sick looking dragon mount at L.v60.
Since we are just giving 30% exp bonus and no further rewards at L.v60, we can tweak it to 200% to 20% more damage from mob. Mind you, Ascension mobs are 3.3.5a, so 20% more damage would be already risky enough for vanilla mobs.

Ascension have many flaws, but they are very clear about what you will get in PVP and its challenge modes so there is no controversies stirring around like Turtle's warmode. Ascension have like ten or twenty time larger playerbase than turtle yet i didn't see any form of pvp-related controversies in league 3 like, ganking and griefing or corpse camping even with their different forms of PVP mode like Felforged, Outlaw and High Risks.
I think turtle devs can learn a page or two from them in how to manage several PVP, PVE modes

[Tenant]

If I may say, you don't seem to be particularly engaged in the idea of this thread, nor open discussion in general. I don't think the issue here is whether topics or ideas can be very strictly placed under the heading of "Warmode"; saying nothing for how different game elements interconnect both mechanically or in terms of the game experience.

Maybe there is another thread that your thoughts might be better placed in?

This a forum, there are topics, they have headings, all this for a reason, the reason being is that discussions should match the headings. This one specifically says "A better discussion about ways to improve Warmode".
If you want to discuss world pvp in general or pvp in general, then maybe you should name your threads after the things that you actually want to discuss.

Warmode = a way to encourage WPvP. Its goal is very limited, its means are limited too, and by extension, the discussion about it is going to be limited in scope. Improve warmode = encourage more players to participate in world pvp.

You pick warmode as a scapegoat for things that you don't like about pvp (and not only pvp, but even WoW itself! - like killing opposite faction NPCs), but the fact is, even if warmode was removed right now, almost nothing about those things would change.

[Redmaws]

Hi I'm new to the server and would like to take my chance to say hi :)

BG reputation gain from open-world kills would actually provide something unique and interesting.

So that there's even less BGs than now?

Who wouldn't like to get a funky baller tabard and pet, to show off their bravery?

I wouldn't.

I would actually disagree with your first statement, since create an alternatiuve method to play. would split the population but still. yet being not at max level i don't know how often a bg starts so i wouldnt go further that that.

The second statemant is more important, wow vanilla has not a cosmetic or horizontal progression so giving those rewards would appeal just to some completitionist leaving out all the others who lovel a vertical progression game.
And i say that 'cause ascension has a huge focus on aestetichs and various ways to obrtain the "raid gear" tied to world pvp.

Ascension have many flaws, but they are very clear about what you will get in PVP and its challenge modes so there is no controversies stirring around like Turtle's warmode. Ascension have like ten or twenty time larger playerbase than turtle yet i didn't see any form of pvp-related controversies in league 3 like, ganking and griefing or corpse camping even with their different forms of PVP mode like Felforged, Outlaw and High Risks.
I think turtle devs can learn a page or two from them in how to manage several PVP, PVE modes

I'll come to that later but let's point out that in ascension people in the pvp modes ( high or low risk ) can fight just between them and yet do not grief on npc's


So, in my eyes, the problem since i initially approached wow in 2006 is that there is no gameplay loop in world pvp that would let you play it.

for anyone not knowing the topic, in pve you kill the boss to have a chance to earn the gear, repeating this thing is called a gameplay loop.
Bg works the same way, you get token you exchange for gear in x time.

There's no similar thing in world pvp, you are supposed to kill people just for honor ( which is not enought to get anything from vendors ) and it is like that by design. That would then bring people to kill low level because aside from your opinion of it being fun or not is the only wpvp activity that create a loop.

You kill, they come back with frustration, repeat untill hight level arrives and you have created a little adsventure for today.

in ascension they did not touched mych guards or npc, neither the bgs are too much different yet with high risk they created a different loop to play, hence creating a third way to experience the game by world pvp.

Sooo my suggestion is not to take anything away from the original formula, most of old players were always frustrated but keeps sweet memories of stranghletorns tents.
But to enhance, or introduce, rewards for world pvp in specific region , better if max level, that could be both plaguelands, burning steppes, blasted lands, silithus and so on.

Or not much plyed ones to give it more life, like desolace or ferales. there are tons, wow world is not as alive as it is sayd.

If you allow those rewards to be obtained only with warmode on you get a region where all the warmode player would go to have pvp between them and also would not spent so much time killing npcs couse it would take time from earning any reward you set.

TL;DR

World pvp does not exist while speaking of game design in wow, is just not a viable way to play.
If you wish to see it flourish it is not about taking away something small that there is now, it about creating a viable way for those people.

[Stoogeville]

If I may say, you don't seem to be particularly engaged in the idea of this thread, nor open discussion in general. I don't think the issue here is whether topics or ideas can be very strictly placed under the heading of "Warmode"; saying nothing for how different game elements interconnect both mechanically or in terms of the game experience.

Maybe there is another thread that your thoughts might be better placed in?

This a forum, there are topics, they have headings, all this for a reason, the reason being is that discussions should match the headings. This one specifically says "A better discussion about ways to improve Warmode".
If you want to discuss world pvp in general or pvp in general, then maybe you should name your threads after the things that you actually want to discuss.

Warmode = a way to encourage WPvP. Its goal is very limited, its means are limited too, and by extension, the discussion about it is going to be limited in scope. Improve warmode = encourage more players to participate in world pvp.

You pick warmode as a scapegoat for things that you don't like about pvp (and not only pvp, but even WoW itself! - like killing opposite faction NPCs), but the fact is, even if warmode was removed right now, almost nothing about those things would change.

Mmmhm. You read the header. Did you read the part about not being inflamatory? Or the part about providing helpful suggestions, instead of just voicing opinions?

[Stoogeville]

So, in my eyes, the problem since i initially approached wow in 2006 is that there is no gameplay loop in world pvp that would let you play it.

Oh my god, this is a brilliant thought. I love it! So simple, so obvious, and yet so easy to miss! Big hugs for you, Redmaws.


I wonder what ways we could institute gameplay loops. Signalled battles or "hot zones" that give extra XP? New, flagged NPC's that are announced, patrolling areas and giving rewards for their killing, or their defense? Even a tweak on the old Turtle feature I barely remember, where a particular player could be marked in a similar way as a VIP, and must be caught (or saved)!

Even instituting reward bounties for players that have (temporarily, or lastingly) too many dishonourable kills - this might give gankers a taste of their own medicine, and it might actually be fun to be hunted like that. Though, these last two would require extra moderation, due to the possibility of win trading, and we're definitely trying to *discourage* ganking rather than cater to it.

[Mac]

Remove the XP boost.

Correct.