Lets talk Warmode and PvP.

[Zynim]

I believe theres one solution for warmode.

-5 +5 level limit on pvp
remove 30% Bonus XP, give 30% Bonus Honor

So you don't want griefing, but you want to increase the honor one can gain from corpse camping. This would only exacerbate the issue you're complaining about.

[Jongyi]

I would disagree with the mentality of "if you have warmode, you accept this."

If warmode is on, I'd be fine with fighting in pvp of my level. But instead I'm just ganked by lvl 60 characters. How is that fair or fun?

Warmode is a challenge. It's not a catch-up method for the slow vanilla leveling process like others have mentioned, that is what tents are for. If you accept warmode, you're accepting the challenge of leveling while flagged with the benefit of a 30% experience boost. If you don't want to deal with the issues resulting from the challenge don't accept it.

If a quest NPC is getting killed, interact with your community. Communicate with your guild, and other players in your zone to organize a response. If you're unable to do that, move on to another zone. The only change I would make is to make the Local Defense channels only available to the faction that owns the zone (horde players shouldn't be able to see Alliance communication on the defense channel in Westfall). There are maybe a handful of griefers, most are well known and are hunted as soon as someone actually communicates where they are.

If the solutions are as simple as u suggest, this issue wouldn't be that big as it is now. By poorly implementing the warmode, it encourage the worst of human behavior. You can see the excessive ganking, griefing, PVPers insulting PVErs in the world chat.
Griefers are thriving as now it is because there is basically no consequences for their toxicity and no moderation.
Devs should see the issues. Blindly shilling and ignoring glaring issues will further divide the essence of community and hurt the longevity of the server

[Gantulga]

I would disagree with the mentality of "if you have warmode, you accept this."

If warmode is on, I'd be fine with fighting in pvp of my level. But instead I'm just ganked by lvl 60 characters. How is that fair or fun?

Warmode is a challenge. It's not a catch-up method for the slow vanilla leveling process like others have mentioned, that is what tents are for. If you accept warmode, you're accepting the challenge of leveling while flagged with the benefit of a 30% experience boost. If you don't want to deal with the issues resulting from the challenge don't accept it.

If a quest NPC is getting killed, interact with your community. Communicate with your guild, and other players in your zone to organize a response. If you're unable to do that, move on to another zone. The only change I would make is to make the Local Defense channels only available to the faction that owns the zone (horde players shouldn't be able to see Alliance communication on the defense channel in Westfall). There are maybe a handful of griefers, most are well known and are hunted as soon as someone actually communicates where they are.

If the solutions are as simple as u suggest, this issue wouldn't be that big as it is now. By poorly implementing the warmode, it encourage the worst of human behavior. You can see the excessive ganking, griefing, PVPers insulting PVErs in the world chat.
Griefers are thriving as now it is because there is basically no consequences for their toxicity and no moderation.
Devs should see the issues. Blindly shilling and ignoring glaring issues will further divide the essence of community and hurt the longevity of the server

The fact that a single 60 can terrorize a low level zone for hours only means that there isn't enough PvP participation. The same applies to the fact that you barely if ever see flagged players while leveling, and even those rarely fight back.

PvP should be self-moderated but the community simply doesn't engage in it enough. Why? I don't really know and to be honest I haven't seen those issues on any other server I've played on. People are generally happy to hunt down those bullying lowbies but that isn't the case here.

[Towdon2]

This all really just seems like a moderation issue if it's an issue at all.

On Classic or Retail if you grief Quest givers you get banned, it's as simple as that. That's not to say killing an NPC is going to get actions taken against you but if you sit there and kill the same NPC 3-4 times with the intent to prevent people from turning in or picking up the quest then you would.

I think the bigger issue that isn't being talked about is how Warmode interacts with the LFT tool. Right now if I get into a 5 man with any horde (Literally every 5 man) through the LFT tool I have no control over other players killing me and camping my body. If I defend myself then I get removed from my group and potentially lose my spot in the group and if I don't defend myself then I just get camped and can't leave / am forced to take Rez Sickness. It's a lose lose situation for me and I have zero control about this as it's not explained well anywhere.

A recommendation I would give is either remove PvP all together while in a LFT group with the opposite faction, or don't remove players from the party for doing PvP. Both recommendations have problems but imo the risks are worth the enjoyment of the player.

[Fizzles]

I would lock any NPCs that gave quests or a flight point to become unattackable(and not aggro at all) by anyone like with the NPCs in starting zones. It isn’t a perfect solution when quest objectives can be griefed, but it will allow people to turn in quests.


The best solution though is to keep warmode limited to PvP rewards to stop baiting PvE players into taking the glyph. It’s funny to see the amount of angry whispers that warmoders give out when they are ganked for taking a glyph that enables them to get griefed.

[Ibimseinschurke]

I play here since 4 weeks and got ganked only 1 time, and they killed flight aster. So it really isn't a "problem". I see pvp players get ignored often...
I like that you can disturb players with killing npc, because this way there is a reason to make respond. But still it is a tickling. There is so much you can do elsewhere, I can not understand people who get angry because they have to wait 30 minutes to get a q in. It's acktchually a good way to get people clother together and form a community. Company's pay a lot for this stuff - team building xD

[Jongyi]

I play here since 4 weeks and got ganked only 1 time, and they killed flight aster. So it really isn't a "problem". I see pvp players get ignored often...
I like that you can disturb players with killing npc, because this way there is a reason to make respond. But still it is a tickling. There is so much you can do elsewhere, I can not understand people who get angry because they have to wait 30 minutes to get a q in. It's acktchually a good way to get people clother together and form a community. Company's pay a lot for this stuff - team building xD

i have to read twice and still not sure it is sarcasm

[Jesterjacks]

I would disagree with the mentality of "if you have warmode, you accept this."

If warmode is on, I'd be fine with fighting in pvp of my level. But instead I'm just ganked by lvl 60 characters. How is that fair or fun?

Warmode is a challenge. It's not a catch-up method for the slow vanilla leveling process like others have mentioned, that is what tents are for. If you accept warmode, you're accepting the challenge of leveling while flagged with the benefit of a 30% experience boost. If you don't want to deal with the issues resulting from the challenge don't accept it.

If a quest NPC is getting killed, interact with your community. Communicate with your guild, and other players in your zone to organize a response. If you're unable to do that, move on to another zone. The only change I would make is to make the Local Defense channels only available to the faction that owns the zone (horde players shouldn't be able to see Alliance communication on the defense channel in Westfall). There are maybe a handful of griefers, most are well known and are hunted as soon as someone actually communicates where they are.

If the solutions are as simple as u suggest, this issue wouldn't be that big as it is now. By poorly implementing the warmode, it encourage the worst of human behavior. You can see the excessive ganking, griefing, PVPers insulting PVErs in the world chat.
Griefers are thriving as now it is because there is basically no consequences for their toxicity and no moderation.
Devs should see the issues. Blindly shilling and ignoring glaring issues will further divide the essence of community and hurt the longevity of the server

This

[Jonas1974]

https://www.reddit.com/r/wowservers/com ... urtle_wow/
Plenty more opinions on the warmode discussion. Most of them seem to agree that the server is becoming more and more toxic for PVE players.
What a shame, because the server once used to be a chill community for PVE players. Now it's slowly, but surely becoming like every other hateful and toxic PVP server out there...

[Fin]

https://www.reddit.com/r/wowservers/com ... urtle_wow/
Plenty more opinions on the warmode discussion. Most of them seem to agree that the server is becoming more and more toxic for PVE players.
What a shame, because the server once used to be a chill community for PVE players. Now it's slowly, but surely becoming like every other hateful and toxic PVP server out there...

Please go and read the newly update rules post. Measures are being taken.

viewtopic.php?p=12799#p12799

The post was up before you made this comment. Please try to work with staff towards solving the problem instead of going on vague tangents: about how toxic this server is becoming.

The work conduct is clear: Rules > GM action.
Gm could not take any action because they were no rules about it.

[Jongyi]

https://www.reddit.com/r/wowservers/com ... urtle_wow/
Plenty more opinions on the warmode discussion. Most of them seem to agree that the server is becoming more and more toxic for PVE players.
What a shame, because the server once used to be a chill community for PVE players. Now it's slowly, but surely becoming like every other hateful and toxic PVP server out there...

Please go and read the newly update rules post. Measures are being taken.

viewtopic.php?p=12799#p12799

The post was up before you made this comment. Please try to work with staff towards solving the problem instead of going on vague tangents: about how toxic this server is becoming.

The work conduct is clear: Rules > GM action.
Gm could not take any action because they were no rules about it.

How about considering more permanent solutions like fixing the warmode to become more PVP oriented instead of exp-bait? It will help reduce a lot of drama.
And increasing toxicity and hostility against PVE RP players are clearly the issues and anyone with common sense can see it. And it originated from introduction of warmode slapped with exp bait. OG RP PVE playerbase is trying to help devs to work on the solution because we all love Turtle and come for custom contents, not to be ridiculed by toxic trolls. OG players are pointing this out because we still care for turtle.
Ignoring this issue can only hurt the server.
Turtle community was closely-knitted, warm and has a special place in all our heart. And it is not too late to bring back our community yet.

[Fin]

Changes to warmode are being discussed. Expect a announcement about the state of the situation soon.

Please don't treat this like staff is not doing anything about this. Solutions to problems will come as soon as possible. There are a lot to consider. There are multiple sides to each problem. What you like, others dislike.

Please keep the discussion to Solution-Problem, instead of going into vague tangents about the state of the community.

[Myrkul]

I'm done if administration decides to remove the xp gain from the Warmode. I didn't get corpse camped for first twenty levels by unique individuals like Redridgeboss so I can now lose all the benefits while being level 40.
Warmode is a decision and you should be expecting the punishment if you decided to cut corners and get 30% more xp. I was okay to accept it. Losing the payoff because some people can't handle the heat seems extremely unfair.
Also I don't know how exactly the Warmode is supposedly punishing the PvE RP part of the community. If you accepted Warmode you become a PvP player enticed by the benefit, simple as.

If NPCs being killed is really that big of an issue (Never seen it happening to me) I'd say disable warmode from level 60 players. Because from personal experience 90% of corpse camping and griefing is being caused by bored level 60 players. Leave warmode on for people who actually level and want to risk being killed by other players.
Or if you really have to disable it leave the xp bonus on for a period of time.

Alternatively, if it's possible from a technical standpoint. Allow players to only PVP tag NPCs and players with similar level - or in zones that are designated for their level bracket (probably hard/impossible to do tho)

[Valadorn]

Changes to warmode are being discussed. Expect a announcement about the state of the situation soon.

Please don't treat this like staff is not doing anything about this. Solutions to problems will come as soon as possible. There are a lot to consider. There are multiple sides to each problem. What you like, others dislike.

Please keep the discussion to Solution-Problem, instead of going into vague tangents about the state of the community.

While discussing about it, please keep in mind that the players that complain about it are usually unafected, they Just want to complain. Also it is totally a choice and all it does is the same as if the players could /pvp themselves manually, but more permanent as a challenge with a reward. It especially helps ppl that are leveling alts, or do not enjoy a slow leveling process. Having the chance to disable it once, just like slow and steady, should be enough.

Currently the server is welcoming for all kinds of players, and everyone can choose the way they want to play.

Please, please be careful with changing / removing a glyph that attracts a high number of ppl and is mostly enjoyed and unique.


I am pretty sure the new rules will fix the problem, since the griefers are not the same with the pvp community, theres only a couple of them.

[Ishilu]

Some thoughts about warmode:

A) It affects all players, whether they want or not. At the moment, it is possible to be unwillingly pvp-flagged, and I have seen this being exploited. Making PvP'ers yellow for PvE'ers opens up possiblilities to exploit the system.

Possible solution: instead of warmode, just give PvE'ers a debuff that prefents them from attacking other players or being attacked by them. Put an NPC into Org an SW where you can turn it on and off.

B) Behaviour among PvP'ers: Open world PvP allows for ganking and other unfair methods. It's not pretty, but it's not a new thing, either get used to it, or switch warmode off, folks.

Possible solution: nope, there is none
But seriously, I believe some griefing might be from PvP'ers who are just bored while queing for BG's. Now, if we look at TBC, they had these world PvP events like the towers in terrokar forest. Maybe we could give our PvP'ers something like that? Just add a timer to these, and people can log at specific times for a guaranteed dose of PvP, instead of hanging around in a BG queue for an unknown time while getting stupid ideas.

[Valadorn]

Some thoughts about warmode:

A) It affects all players, whether they want or not. At the moment, it is possible to be unwillingly pvp-flagged, and I have seen this being exploited. Making PvP'ers yellow for PvE'ers opens up possiblilities to exploit the system.

It only affects them as much as the glyphed player would type /pvp and walk into the AOE, removing the glyph wouldnt change that behavior. Flagged ppl have green names, unflagged have blue.

If you dont want to get flagged, you gotta avoid green player names + pve players always have the endge, as in they hit first

What i am trying to say, is you dont need the glyph to abuse the system.

[Xgaldarx]

Some thoughts about warmode:

A) It affects all players, whether they want or not. At the moment, it is possible to be unwillingly pvp-flagged, and I have seen this being exploited. Making PvP'ers yellow for PvE'ers opens up possiblilities to exploit the system.

Possible solution: instead of warmode, just give PvE'ers a debuff that prefents them from attacking other players or being attacked by them. Put an NPC into Org an SW where you can turn it on and off.

This ! Just make it that unless you are already flagged for pvp you can not do anything to pvp flagged player (positive or negative) instead of getting flagged yourself - that way there is no way to exploit

[Ishilu]

If you dont want to get flagged, you gotta avoid green player names + pve players always have the endge, as in they hit first

What i am trying to say, is you dont need the glyph to abuse the system.

I'm afraid that's not quite correct. In the past few days I've seen several attempts from yellow players to flag me or others for pvp, e.g. by riding right next to my mage when I'm likely to throw a frost nova at a pursuing mob. Btw, I could not even see that guys level.

So, we not only have to avoid buffing green people but also watch our AE spells, shouts, totems, cleaves etc when a yellow guy is nearby, and we can't prevent them from just stacking on us, waiting for their opening. And that's the real problem I'm seeing here.

[Hombrehongo]

I play warmode just for the xp increase, i enjoy questing to 60 but its too slow for my taste. I dont attack other players but i was killed several times by lvl 60 players. I didn`t mind that much since the xp gain makes up for it but i see how this affects other players.
I have a suggestion to make warmode better for the server. Instead of 30% increase xp let warmode player gain sizable xp from battlegrounds and from killing players in the world lets say with a 5 lvl difference, that change will make BGs from every level bracket more populated. This will bring a problem with items if a warmode player just levels from BGs so maybe they can buy items from quartermasters with honour instead of questing for items? and this items are only accesible to warmode players.
To stop unfair ganking you can forbid warmode players from attackig players over a 5 level difference or give penalties like loss of xp, the bigger the difference of lvl the bigger the penalty. For example if a lvl 55 player ganks a lvl 10 player he might lose several levels but that can bring more problems with low lvl players commiting suicide by AoE to grief a high lvl players.

I dont think there is a perfect solution though and i`m sure that the TWoW devs are making all they can to make the game fun for all of us.

[Striderbrah]

Rpers have been outnumbered and even PvE players are beginning to notice the irritating issues of griefers going after quest NPCs

I think a good way to balance this out would be to encourage more rewards for 'Turtle mode'.
If Turtle mode got a Title and a Leaderboard, next to the Hardcore ones, it would be clear that the focus of the server is PVE, in its many forms.
I don't mind PVP that much, but it definitely encourages "meta-play", which Turtle WoW should try and untie.

[Valadorn]

Rpers have been outnumbered and even PvE players are beginning to notice the irritating issues of griefers going after quest NPCs

I think a good way to balance this out would be to encourage more rewards for 'Turtle mode'.
If Turtle mode got a Title and a Leaderboard, next to the Hardcore ones, it would be clear that the focus of the server is PVE, in its many forms.
I don't mind PVP that much, but it definitely encourages "meta-play", which Turtle WoW should try and untie.

Slow and steady mode literally rewards donor coins, exclusive mount and the most expensive items, fashion coins, lots of it.

[Valadorn]

If you dont want to get flagged, you gotta avoid green player names + pve players always have the endge, as in they hit first

What i am trying to say, is you dont need the glyph to abuse the system.

I'm afraid that's not quite correct. In the past few days I've seen several attempts from yellow players to flag me or others for pvp, e.g. by riding right next to my mage when I'm likely to throw a frost nova at a pursuing mob. Btw, I could not even see that guys level.

So, we not only have to avoid buffing green people but also watch our AE spells, shouts, totems, cleaves etc when a yellow guy is nearby, and we can't prevent them from just stacking on us, waiting for their opening. And that's the real problem I'm seeing here.

What I am trying to say, is they could simply /pvp manually and do the same, warmode doesnt affect that kind of behavior. But the new rules affect it :)

[Ishilu]

Ok, being relatively new to turtle, I may have misunderstood warmode so far.

But can we agree that the current ruleset allows for pvp-flagging people against their will, even if they don't buff or team up with green nameplates? This is a problem that needs to be adressed.

[Adunai]

But seriously, I believe some griefing might be from PvP'ers who are just bored while queing for BG's. Now, if we look at TBC, they had these world PvP events like the towers in terrokar forest. Maybe we could give our PvP'ers something like that? Just add a timer to these, and people can log at specific times for a guaranteed dose of PvP, instead of hanging around in a BG queue for an unknown time while getting stupid ideas.

Aren't there world PvP objectives in EPL and Silithus? And has Turtle not added a single world PvP zone? Now that would be a solution! Fingers crossed for Hellfire Peninsula to be PvP-only (dodging rotten tomatoes as I'm writing this comment).

[Aszura]

Remove the XP boost.

[Striderbrah]

someone on the server said it better than I could,
"warmode should be permanent the 1st time"

if it was locked to the player forever, people would realise that it's a commitment and not just an exp boost you can turn off at anytime. Also it would make world chat more fun when people get ganked.

[Anjou]

War mode should be activated only when in contested or hostile territories.

[Jesterjacks]

I still don't understand why the punishment for 30% exp "SHOULD" be that you get ganked by 60s as opposed to just pvp for your level. Why is everyone agreeing to toxic behavior...

[Thol]

I agree that for now removing the XP bonus would be best. It would prevent PvErs from forcing themselves into a PvP mode they dislike. Same thing happened on retail, players only turned War Mode on for the increased PvE rewards with no interests in WPvP.

War Mode increasing honor gains sounds good to me. Also you could add rewards every 10 levels like for Slow & Steady, bonus marks of honor, PvP potions, maybe a title and tabard at lvl 60 (those rewards should not give an edge in PvE).

It's indeed sad that for most people nowadays WPvP = a 60 camping lowbies. For me instead of outlawing it entirely you should incentivize lvl 60 players to come help and kill the gankers instead, like the bounty system in retail, a ganker location is displayed on the map after they have killed too many players and killing them gives bonus PvP rewards. Could add a title for killing gankers (Justiciar, Lawman or something similar) and/or maybe Stormwind guard or Orgrimmar guard cosmetic armor set.

City raids should be incentivized as well imo, with a weekly or monthly quest for example. Civilians NPCs giving dishonor should be made invincible to avoid dishonor gains.

My best Vanilla memories are from WPvP, Southshore vs Tarren Mill, fight for control of Nesingwary camp, Crossroads vs Astranaar, skirmishes between raids in Blackrock and Eastern Plaguelands. I played both RP-PvE and RP-PvP servers during Vanilla and even on a PvE server WPvP happened a lot, it was easy to get flagged, I think this was by design, for me Vanilla without any WPvP is not Vanilla.

Roleplayers and PvPers usually don't mix, like oil and vinegar. PvPers see Roleplayers as easy marks and love griefing and making fun of them, Roleplayers in turn think every PvPer is a mindless beast. For me WPvPing is a pure form of Roleplay, battling side by side with an Orc/Human while you know one of you could turn on the other at any time, it's exciting. The new cross faction features opens up for even more interesting RP-PvP imo.

[Adunai]

I still don't understand why the punishment for 30% exp "SHOULD" be that you get ganked by 60s as opposed to just pvp for your level. Why is everyone agreeing to toxic behavior...

Define "your level". I'd think, implementing a level range would take too much work, no idea whether it's possible. But I would be all for making only those attackable who differ from the attacker by 10 levels in either direction - e.g., a lvl 54 can attack lvl 44 and be attacked by a lvl 60. Would that solve your issue? Tightening it to 5 levels (49-59) would be too restrictive, imo, as people can venture into zones of higher level, and can also help higher-level people in PvP - would be awkward if you couldn't attack them.

For me instead of outlawing it entirely you should incentivize lvl 60 players to come help and kill the gankers instead, like the bounty system in retail, a ganker location is displayed on the map after they have killed too many players and killing them gives bonus PvP rewards. [...]

City raids should be incentivized as well imo, with a weekly or monthly quest for example. Civilians NPCs giving dishonor should be made invincible to avoid dishonor gains.

This 100%!

[Tenant]

I still don't understand why the punishment for 30% exp "SHOULD" be that you get ganked by 60s as opposed to just pvp for your level. Why is everyone agreeing to toxic behavior...

It's not punishment. It's the other way around. You get 30% more xp to compensate for the time spent ghost walking.

[Ghola]

the majority of griefers I see in crossroads are not warmode at all, rather they flag pvp, kill a lowbie, get killed by 60s, then wait to unflag when dead and repeat. And a lot of these players have been around far before class changes

[Gantulga]

the majority of griefers I see in crossroads are not warmode at all, rather they flag pvp, kill a lowbie, get killed by 60s, then wait to unflag when dead and repeat. And a lot of these players have been around far before class changes

Being able to easily flag and unflag is the true abuse case indeed.

[Ghola]

the majority of griefers I see in crossroads are not warmode at all, rather they flag pvp, kill a lowbie, get killed by 60s, then wait to unflag when dead and repeat. And a lot of these players have been around far before class changes

Being able to easily flag and unflag is the true abuse case indeed.

if it were a pvp server I could camp them until they leave, if you flag up in enemy territory you shouldn't be able to unflag until you leave

[Jesterjacks]

Another day where I died 4 times to lvl 60s and had 0 fights with people my level. Today I disabled warmode. This is BS...