Troll Warlocks?

[Paledot]

I don't own great knowledge of the lore but I have some faint idea that the reason for Darkspear trolls not being able to be warlocks is that they are simply trying to avoid dark magic... But isn't this in general the case with like any race (maybe except undead, hehe)? And I always perceived trolls as very familiar with dark arts. Blizzard itself made the combination possible after Cataclysm and boy, was it my favorite! And honestly, it still makes more sense than Troll Mage... I would really love to see Troll Warlocks hexing on Turtle!
Was there a specific reason they were not included in Mysteries of Azeroth? Thanks!

[Sinrek]

I don't own great knowledge of the lore but I have some faint idea that the reason for Darkspear trolls not being able to be warlocks is that they are simply trying to avoid dark magic... But isn't this in general the case with like any race (maybe except undead, hehe)? And I always perceived trolls as very familiar with dark arts. Blizzard itself made the combination possible after Cataclysm and boy, was it my favorite! And honestly, it still makes more sense than Troll Mage... I would really love to see Troll Warlocks hexing on Turtle!
Was there a specific reason they were not included in Mysteries of Azeroth? Thanks!

Hex was a troll shaman spell.

Shadow Hunters were hunting shadows, evil spirits and ghosts with all sort of aberrations of spiritual kind.

Trolls consider shadow magic as a voodoo, which, if you haven't payed any attention, sometimes trolls will tell you to stay away from the voodoo as a goodbye.

Above all else Thrall and Vol'jin agreed to ban it altogether with cannibalism and some other unethical for shamans practices, which would never fit the New Horde.

TL:DR; No. Lore reasons.

[Pogopogo]

I don't own great knowledge of the lore but I have some faint idea that the reason for Darkspear trolls not being able to be warlocks is that they are simply trying to avoid dark magic... But isn't this in general the case with like any race (maybe except undead, hehe)? And I always perceived trolls as very familiar with dark arts. Blizzard itself made the combination possible after Cataclysm and boy, was it my favorite! And honestly, it still makes more sense than Troll Mage... I would really love to see Troll Warlocks hexing on Turtle!
Was there a specific reason they were not included in Mysteries of Azeroth? Thanks!

Hex was a troll shaman spell.

Shadow Hunters were hunting shadows, evil spirits and ghosts with all sort of aberrations of spiritual kind.

Trolls consider shadow magic as a voodoo, which, if you haven't payed any attention, sometimes trolls will tell you to stay away from the voodoo as a goodbye.

Above all else Thrall and Vol'jin agreed to ban it altogether with cannibalism and some other unethical for shamans practices, which would never fit the New Horde.

TL:DR; No. Lore reasons.

Ey dere, Pogo’pogo ‘ere takin’ ah leetle break from mah compulsory priesthood in de depths ah de spire tah set tings right on request.

Troll warlocks, or an equivalent exist withing Zandalari tradition within lore and within the vanilla warcraft canon.
Specifically, within the Zandalari tradition exist Demoniacs. Demoniacs are practioners that pull demons from the ‘edge of madness’ (which we can assume to be the Twisting Nether by presence of demons and shadow users within its designated sub-region and worship space in Zul’gurub) and enslave them by turning their bodies into containment vessels, siphoning the fel from those captured demons and turning their power into their own. You can read about it a bit here within this quest text from the ZG Paragon warlock set: https://classic.wowhead.com/quest=8059/ ... iacs-wraps
Forest trolls are also present within turtle’s canonic new horde, and have been working alongside the orcs since Doomhammer took control of the horde in the second war. It would not be strange for individuals of both forest troll and Darkspear descent (that later of which has adopted already several orcish customs over their own) to find interest and learn the ways of the ‘old shamans’ of the clans, and harness the fel. If gnomes can become warlocks with no distinctive lore reason there’s no reason trolls cannot do the same with their established lore.

tl;dr: Dere plenty ah cauldron mastahs ahn mons dat tamperin’ wit dark tings out dere. But yah nah go lookin’ fah dem yahself… stay away from de voodoo!

[Meepingmeeps]

Saying that there couldn’t be Troll warlocks is a disservice to this community and whatever potential lore you guys may be cooking up. There are many Troll roleplayers who are not aligned with Thrall’s Horde and are not Darkspear, so why couldn’t demons and/or Orc or Undead warlocks teach Trolls? I feel as if your reasoning will hurt the potential for rp (which is already hurting but that’s another topic) in this server, as well as the possible cool implications this may have for lore later on. It’s like saying “You can only rp/be a Darkspear because they are the version we’ve had playable since vanilla launched.” Plus all of Troll magics can be considered voodoo, so you saying the “Stay away from the voodoo” quote is possibly bordering on being pedantic.

Tl;dr there absolutely could be Troll warlocks

[Pogopogo]

Oh one more note! Voodoo does not refer specifically to dark magic. In warcraft lore voodoo refers to both spells and magically applied medicines (potions, salves, brews, etc) but amulets of power are specifically referred to as jujus. 'mojo' is a physical substance that contains latent magic that is extracted from troll secretions, loa, and some select animals. E'ko and muiseks are spiritual substances that contain latent magic.

Shadow magic is used frequently by Darkspear among their priests, witch doctors, and shadowhunters. Vol'jin himself is a shadowhunter! Shadow can be used to both helpful and harmful, and is not always 'evil' magics. The fel could be considered a form of voodoo when in use by a trollish practitioner.

Trolls tell you to 'stay away from de voodoo' when they say goodbye, but they also greet you with 'come get de voodoo'. Which one is eet mon?!

[Sinrek]

Players want playable warlocks. Those won't be represented by the New Horde Thrall had created.

[Lev]

You give a horde of warlock trolls and an alliance of priests gnome
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3246&p=19809&sid=c ... 11d#p19809

[Ishilu]

I'd love troll warlocks!

Troll druids would be nice, too, btw.

More trolls, mon!

[Paledot]

Thanks for the great answers. I learned something and kinda feel ashamed for my lack of knowledge now… But I'm just glad that there could be good reasons lorewise to have troll warlocks. I just always liked the idea of dark shamanism, demonology rooted in forest or tribal magic etc. And this probably comes the closest… One can hope…

[Meepingmeeps]

Players want playable warlocks. Those won't be represented by the New Horde Thrall had created.

Um... Do you not know that Thrall allows Orc and Undead warlocks in his Horde? That they're doing their shtick while swearing loyalty to the new Horde?

[Sinrek]

Players want playable warlocks. Those won't be represented by the New Horde Thrall had created.

Um... Do you not know that Thrall allows Orc and Undead warlocks in his Horde? That they're doing their shtick while swearing loyalty to the new Horde?

You are correct, however, Thrall uses orcish warlocks since they have no trust in his eyes, Forsaken warlocks are just as minor fraction of their so-called church nowadays (see Cult of the Forgotten Shadow) and they are sort of leftovers from the human practitioners of the dark arts.

Trolls, at least the Darkspear tribe, however, are following Vol'jin's command, therefore they obey the general trend and picked up on their ancestral shamanism much more firmly than voodoo. Hexers are banished, exiled and became the enemy of the Horde.

[Paledot]

So I take it both sides of the argumentation have some solid points. Like in a sense that troll warlocks are definitely real and present, its just a matter of "allowing them". I personally find it unlucky that you can see trolls doing their shadowy stuff all around Azeroth but players cannot have that… And I also think troll warlocks would be RP gold.

"…Trolls have a long history of summoning dark entities and whispering hexes and curses. Their blood rituals are not a far cry from that of warlock rituals…"

[Paledot]

Also a quick note for Sinrek – you pedantically correct me that "Hex is a shaman spell" and later you admit that banished troll warlocks are called "hexers", so... OK.

[Sinrek]

Also a quick note for Sinrek – you pedantically correct me that "Hex is a shaman spell" and later you admit that banished troll warlocks are called "hexers", so... OK.

Correct.

They abuse their powers and go beyond elemental shamanism using hexes. There's no clear description anywhere in lore or history of all WoW regarding the borderline where hexes and dark arts are considered to be out of shamanism and becomes voodoo, which is banished by the New Horde Darkspears.

I guess we'll have to consider more sinister use of those existing spells for trolls before they are deemed as unfit for a shaman.

[Ishilu]

banished by the New Horde Darkspears

Not all trolls need to follow darkspear tradition.

Now let's consider why Thrall (a shaman!) tolerates warlocks in Orgrimmar.
Thrall would probably prefer a world without demons and warlocks, but demons and warlocks are a thing in the world he lives in, and he can't make it just go away by prohibiting it on his territory. That might actually be dangerous, considering that he wouldn't have much less insight into motivations, actions and capabilites of warlocks right on his doorstep. It's always easier to fight an enemy that you understand, so warlocks can be considered a necessary evil.

It's a similar thing with human warlocks. Ever thought about why human mages have this huge tower that can be seen from all over Stormwind, while warlocks "hide" in a basement just across the street from that tower?

It's imaginable that Vol'Jin would be smart and pragmatic enough to tolerate troll warlocks by "banishing" them to that single tent just behind the mage tent in Sen'Jin.

[Gheor]

I don't own great knowledge of the lore but I have some faint idea that the reason for Darkspear trolls not being able to be warlocks is that they are simply trying to avoid dark magic... But isn't this in general the case with like any race (maybe except undead, hehe)? And I always perceived trolls as very familiar with dark arts. Blizzard itself made the combination possible after Cataclysm and boy, was it my favorite! And honestly, it still makes more sense than Troll Mage... I would really love to see Troll Warlocks hexing on Turtle!
Was there a specific reason they were not included in Mysteries of Azeroth? Thanks!

Hex was a troll shaman spell.

Shadow Hunters were hunting shadows, evil spirits and ghosts with all sort of aberrations of spiritual kind.

Trolls consider shadow magic as a voodoo, which, if you haven't payed any attention, sometimes trolls will tell you to stay away from the voodoo as a goodbye.

Above all else Thrall and Vol'jin agreed to ban it altogether with cannibalism and some other unethical for shamans practices, which would never fit the New Horde.

TL:DR; No. Lore reasons.

Ey dere, Pogo’pogo ‘ere takin’ ah leetle break from mah compulsory priesthood in de depths ah de spire tah set tings right on request.

Troll warlocks, or an equivalent exist withing Zandalari tradition within lore and within the vanilla warcraft canon.
Specifically, within the Zandalari tradition exist Demoniacs. Demoniacs are practioners that pull demons from the ‘edge of madness’ (which we can assume to be the Twisting Nether by presence of demons and shadow users within its designated sub-region and worship space in Zul’gurub) and enslave them by turning their bodies into containment vessels, siphoning the fel from those captured demons and turning their power into their own. You can read about it a bit here within this quest text from the ZG Paragon warlock set: https://classic.wowhead.com/quest=8059/ ... iacs-wraps
Forest trolls are also present within turtle’s canonic new horde, and have been working alongside the orcs since Doomhammer took control of the horde in the second war. It would not be strange for individuals of both forest troll and Darkspear descent (that later of which has adopted already several orcish customs over their own) to find interest and learn the ways of the ‘old shamans’ of the clans, and harness the fel. If gnomes can become warlocks with no distinctive lore reason there’s no reason trolls cannot do the same with their established lore.

tl;dr: Dere plenty ah cauldron mastahs ahn mons dat tamperin’ wit dark tings out dere. But yah nah go lookin’ fah dem yahself… stay away from de voodoo!

The Forest Troll influence is how I'd also rationalise it.

[Ugoboom]

Players want playable warlocks. Those won't be represented by the New Horde Thrall had created.

bruh nobody gives a dink about lore. we wanna play stuff that looks cool and makes sense by default to a newcomer to the series

[Gheor]

Players want playable warlocks. Those won't be represented by the New Horde Thrall had created.

bruh nobody gives a dink about lore. we wanna play stuff that looks cool and makes sense by default to a newcomer to the series

You clearly speak for everybody.

[Sinrek]

Players want playable warlocks. Those won't be represented by the New Horde Thrall had created.

bruh nobody gives a dink about lore. we wanna play stuff that looks cool and makes sense by default to a newcomer to the series

We do. You're always free to create your own version of the server with troll warlocks, human hunters, gnome priests … you can even have tauren rogues there! Hell, why not?

[Ugoboom]

hell yeah I do. the people you think exist, that would care this much about lore to deny players troll warlocks... they already aren't fans of wow, where every casual warlock player is just casually chilling on their dreadsteeds, demons out, in the middle of cities. Highly illegal in the lore.

It makes 0 sense to prevent players from playing stuff that doesn't conform with faction and city lore, when the game itself guides players to dump all over it.

And i'm not bluffing either. I think it would be super cool if warlocks were forced, by the game, to hide their illegal identity cities and towns. like they would carry an alternate garb and mount, couldn't use evil abilities... but this sounds like a massive dev undertaking and i doubt its the way the turtle team wants to go. Or maybe yall do.

Until then, you have 0 ground to stand on, standing in the way of these dope suggestions, with how vanilla wow and turtle is currently built. So, please stop standing in the way?

[Sinrek]

hell yeah I do. the people you think exist, that would care this much about lore to deny players troll warlocks... they already aren't fans of wow, where every casual warlock player is just casually chilling on their dreadsteeds, demons out, in the middle of cities. Highly illegal in the lore.

It makes 0 sense to prevent players from playing stuff that doesn't conform with faction and city lore, when the game itself guides players to dump all over it.

And i'm not bluffing either. I think it would be super cool if warlocks were forced, by the game, to hide their illegal identity cities and towns. like they would carry an alternate garb and mount, couldn't use evil abilities... but this sounds like a massive dev undertaking and i doubt its the way the turtle team wants to go. Or maybe yall do.

Until then, you have 0 ground to stand on, standing in the way of these dope suggestions, with how vanilla wow and turtle is currently built. So, please stop standing in the way?

Since you feel so inclined to be in a role all the time, then feel free to have yourself … let's say an additional challenge, some RP addons might help you with that. Never using anything resembling demonic or demons themselves in cities. Walk, and I mean actually walking, as if you're a regular (insert professions name here) citizen with no ill intent and totally never siding with demons. I'm sure that would spur some RP action you so desire and most of lore GM team members too, I'm sure!

[Gheor]

hell yeah I do. the people you think exist, that would care this much about lore to deny players troll warlocks... they already aren't fans of wow, where every casual warlock player is just casually chilling on their dreadsteeds, demons out, in the middle of cities. Highly illegal in the lore.

It makes 0 sense to prevent players from playing stuff that doesn't conform with faction and city lore, when the game itself guides players to dump all over it.

And i'm not bluffing either. I think it would be super cool if warlocks were forced, by the game, to hide their illegal identity cities and towns. like they would carry an alternate garb and mount, couldn't use evil abilities... but this sounds like a massive dev undertaking and i doubt its the way the turtle team wants to go. Or maybe yall do.

Until then, you have 0 ground to stand on, standing in the way of these dope suggestions, with how vanilla wow and turtle is currently built. So, please stop standing in the way?

First of all, you had only one member of the team disagreeing and one agreeing with Troll Warlocks (me). These decisions are taken by a team and not an individual, personal opinion doesn't dictate what will or will not happen.

Second I don't understand your attitude at all, we have several players in the RP community that very much care about the lore. Like Pogo said, from a lore perspective this can happen and I know exactly how to make it happen.

You're seriously just interpreting things in a way you think we antagonise players.

For the last time, the personal opinion of a staff member doesn't dictate the future of the server nor does it influence players.

Everything is possible, it's a matter of do or don't and until the team decides is a Do it's a Don't.

I don't appreciate being painted as the villain here, I'm not standing in the way of anyone's fun, my role is to make content for the levelers and for the lore nerds of this community. Why would you seriously think I'm here volunteering to punish people for enjoy the same game that I also enjoy?

[Gheor]

Lastly.

If we pull up lore out of the magical hat every time it suits us we will only walk in the same wrong direction as others did.

I'm definitely not a purist, but some things work, some just don't.

Not speaking of this case necessarily.

[Paledot]

I actually love that Turtle is trying to firmly hold on to vanilla lore. My suggestion of troll warlock was really in good faith and I have no intention of udermining this effort. I just somehow felt that troll warlocks should be possible and I layed out my unfamiliarity with lore at the beginning and I’m glad that some more educated from the community agreed…
Like I would for example love troll druids as well but I know that would be just too much of a stretch for vanilla…
So I appreciate that Ugoboom is on the side of allowing this change but I cant agree with the sentiment of „everything goes“.

Keep up the great work GMs and thank you for considering this change!

[Gheor]

I actually love that Turtle is trying to firmly hold on to vanilla lore. My suggestion of troll warlock was really in good faith and I have no intention of udermining this effort. I just somehow felt that troll warlocks should be possible and I layed out my unfamiliarity with lore at the beginning and I’m glad that some more educated from the community agreed…
Like I would for example love troll druids as well but I know that would be just too much of a stretch for vanilla…
So I appreciate that Ugoboom is on the side of allowing this change but I cant agree with the sentiment of „everything goes“.

Keep up the great work GMs and thank you for considering this change!

With the proper lore explanation and the proper work up, it's definitely possible, don't give up hope just now.

We are currently limited by the client, but if we ever break through I will be the amongst the first to propose the idea :).

[Paledot]

With the proper lore explanation and the proper work up, it's definitely possible, don't give up hope just now.

We are currently limited by the client, but if we ever break through I will be the amongst the first to propose the idea :).

Seriously appreciate it :)

[Hir3]

Also a quick note for Sinrek – you pedantically correct me that "Hex is a shaman spell" and later you admit that banished troll warlocks are called "hexers", so... OK.

This is a leftover from Warcraft, when there was a time where the line between Warlock and Shaman was often of specialization.

[Oonadruidqueen]

Just hitting up this old thread because I think there are good points in it and I would like to see Troll Warlocks one day.
As someone who is a fan of non-darkspear trolls I'd like to have a way to RP a Troll Shadowcaster one day <3

[Shamma]

Reason they don't exist - plain and simple - trolls already have 6 playable classes. No race has 7 classes to choose from. They do not fit in the UI and there should be some race-class combinations unavailable. That is where they drew the line in the early 2000s.

[Notawen]

How about this?
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3264