Toxic PvP?

[Nimlouth]

To mods: Feel free to (re)move this thread if it is not in the correct section of the forums. I'm just seeking to open a conversation/discussion on this topic which I think it's important for this server I am part of.

Hello all. I've been playing turtle wow with friends casually from time to time since a couple of years. I was never afraid to call it THE best WoW Pserver out there before, and neither I am now. But times changes, things grow, die, fall and rise around the internet and the like it or not, the community here is not the same anymore.

Just today, I logged into my lvl 26 Pally on the comunal tents zone in the Arena, a staple of the niceness of this server. Saw some people fighting, some low levels being killed, I wrote in chat "Guys, don't fight in tents pls!"... and then got killed by a high level horde character involved in the fight.

Now my first instinct here is "I see someone, I buff them". This is a pve/rp server and there's even crossfaction so I've always feel encouraged to socialize and engage with everyone, and just try to be nice all around because others were nice to me. Ever since warmode tho, there's a lot more people flagged pvp, and this time I buffed someone who was flagged, and got caught in the fight because what I protested.

"Guys, don't fight in tents pls!" > *gets killed* bam, git gud scrub.

I never intended to engage on pvp. I never attacked nobody. I never insulted, harrassed or taunted another player. I wasn't trying to take advantage of anything, or to interrupt anyone from taking their rest status. I don't like warmode and don't want nothing to do with it. And even so, I was dragged into a pvp situation I didn't wanted to partake in. And just to be clear, I never fought back, just bubbled, and then got killed anyways.

Now I get it. "This is just vanilla mechanics, you just need to be careful about who you buff, go do tents on goldshire instead, etc." There's always going to be excuses and workarounds. But Turtle is advertised as a PvE/RP server, and right now being a part of that "official" side of the server is getting increasingly difficulty because the PvP community is pushing, and pushing, and pushing against it.

I came here, like many others, for the good vibes and the nice welcoming community, something that's getting increasingly hard to find around in-game, specially if playing casually.

And listen, IT REALLY sucks to be in the team of people that complains about this and that, I LOVE this server and the last thing I want it is to not grow or anything. That said, anywhere I go these days seems to be filled with toxic behaviours driven by the toxic competition of pvping for the sake of showing off who's better at a 2005 game. Killing low level people? Come on... we're supposed to "relax and take it slowly" but there's people in world chat and out there in the wild taunting others to "come and get some" 24/7. Now not even the tents are safe!

Idk, I'm not proposing any "fix" or voting for any change. I don't want to lecture anyone on how the server should or should not be run. I don't want to start a war with PvP players or anything. I'm just venting this because I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels like someone who is enjoying a concert and then gets unwillingly thrown into a moshpit and gets smashed in the head for no reason, waking up in the hospital with no concert and without nobody to listen to you.

"Why would you go to a concert if you don't want to get your head smashed?" .__.

BONUS: The nail in the coffin for me was trying to vent in world chat and getting called a cry baby for not wanting to engage in pvp... on a pve/rp server!?

Cheers yall.

[Pistol]

I think a reasonable band-aid for this would be making the part of the Gurubashi arena directly outside the actual "arena" part a sanctuary as say Shattrath or Dalaran were in later expansions. This wouldn't interfere with the people taking part in pvp in the arena itself but would help those just sitting at tents near the arena.

As for the rest of it I think we're just starting to notice vanilla pvp mechanics due to the increased population as of the recent update.

[Valadorn]

I will Tell you a secret, pvp flagged people have Green names, unflagged ppl have blue. Just avoid the Greens, no matter the server or game, there will always be jerks around.

[Qixel]

Yes, unfortunately, the server has fallen far from the community that once made it. Even in this thread, it couldn't go two replies without a smarmy response telling you off. I'm in the same boat; I came here three years ago because it was the only PvE server. We endured the ridicule of the pvpers about our "dying population", and it was good because we had a community that cared about each other. Certainly, you had small pockets of jerks, but they were rare, and frequently rooted out as they found their behavior unwelcome. But the same people who ridiculed us for our "dying population" have killed their Gurubashi, and their Hyjals, and their Darrowshires, and like locusts have now set their eyes on Turtle. Now you cannot post a valid complaint about ganking at tent parties without someone ever so helpfully saying "GrEeN tExT iS pVp!1!"

I don't have a solution. I don't think it will get better. They've even removed the RP-PvE server tag from the website. My only advice is to latch onto what shreds of decent community you can, and hope it can weather the storm. It's what I'm trying to do, at least.

[Jambiya]

Technically on a pve server someone can still be flagged for pvp, which means even there you’d have to be careful who you buff. Yes warmode has created more people that flag, but the precaution still remains none the less.

I’d also like to mention the majority of people on warmode aren’t toxic, don’t grief, and are just as friendly as any other group. But like any other group there are individuals that take things too far. It sucks when it happens, but lumping everyone in for the mistakes of the few is bad form.

[Valadorn]

Yes, unfortunately, the server has fallen far from the community that once made it. Even in this thread, it couldn't go two replies without a smarmy response telling you off. I'm in the same boat; I came here three years ago because it was the only PvE server. We endured the ridicule of the pvpers about our "dying population", and it was good because we had a community that cared about each other. Certainly, you had small pockets of jerks, but they were rare, and frequently rooted out as they found their behavior unwelcome. But the same people who ridiculed us for our "dying population" have killed their Gurubashi, and their Hyjals, and their Darrowshires, and like locusts have now set their eyes on Turtle. Now you cannot post a valid complaint about ganking at tent parties without someone ever so helpfully saying "GrEeN tExT iS pVp!1!"

I don't have a solution. I don't think it will get better. They've even removed the RP-PvE server tag from the website. My only advice is to latch onto what shreds of decent community you can, and hope it can weather the storm. It's what I'm trying to do, at least.

Condemning everyone for the actions of a few . . . Isnt that toxic ? I never called every PvE player toxic when one ninja loots in dungeons. And theres no fix for that.

[Tortuga]

They've even removed the RP-PvE server tag from the website. My only advice is to latch onto what shreds of decent community you can, and hope it can weather the storm. It's what I'm trying to do, at least.

Yes, RP-wise, introducing War mode was a big mistake, and yet another nail in the RP coffin. There was already an impact on RP when raiding started (though this was inevitable and foreseeable), then HC mode came to divide the community into two non-communicating parts, and now PvP starts to prevail over RP (like a party that loses the chat RP negotiation retreats to PvP, simply one-shotting their opponents)

[Reploidrocsa]

Yeah you're right, but pvp in general makes people salty. It was inevitable.

I kinda miss the days when high lv players helped lowbies because they're bored

[Mrkrissatan]

imho they should remove the exp component of the glyph and replace it with something else pvp orientated

[Afaslizo]

I’d also like to mention the majority of people on warmode aren’t toxic, don’t grief, and are just as friendly as any other group. But like any other group there are individuals that take things too far. It sucks when it happens, but lumping everyone in for the mistakes of the few is bad form.

Yet. Don't take that for granted for long. You will feel that more and more toxic players are pulled in once the rp and pve is more and more overshadowed by warmode and pvp as they already begin to be. Slowly it will shift more and more. Now people even demand open world pvp-zones like that Azshara Crater suggestion just to forceflag people if they want to experience the whole world. That will just be the start.

[Valadorn]

Now, I may sound like a party ruiner, but there are over 50 PvE zones, lots of them indtanced. Why are u so against a pvp zone ?

[Glarthir]

Or we could just use the Mirage Raceway as the official tent place. First of all it costs 50s to get a tp down there, second of all, it's not a literal PvP designated area and third of all, it would put some more life in the racing minigame

[Jambiya]

I’d also like to mention the majority of people on warmode aren’t toxic, don’t grief, and are just as friendly as any other group. But like any other group there are individuals that take things too far. It sucks when it happens, but lumping everyone in for the mistakes of the few is bad form.

Yet. Don't take that for granted for long. You will feel that more and more toxic players are pulled in once the rp and pve is more and more overshadowed by warmode and pvp as they already begin to be. Slowly it will shift more and more. Now people even demand open world pvp-zones like that Azshara Crater suggestion just to forceflag people if they want to experience the whole world. That will just be the start.

I think the current buzz on warmode is mostly because it’s still recent. Also if you don’t take warmode your completely removed from the whole thing (beyond repetitive world chat arguments). As for the crater that was just one suggestion from TWO YEARS ago which I doubt the turtle team can even implement with all the work they have (if they even wanted to to begin with).

Im not a fan of warmode and would personally prefer a more organic method of pvp via my Fugitive Mode suggestion here: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2546&p=15794&hilit=Fugitive#p15794

I doubt that could be implanted either, but i feel it fits the role play nature of the server better than just slapping pvp on someone and giving them 30% more xp (which I also disagree with, should be more honor at least)

I believe Toxic behavior should be removed from the server pronto though (excessive greifing, death threats, tbagging,etc) as all they do is drive people away. It’s harder to be toxic in pve (though it happens) since you need other people to do content. I would argue that because pvp is a smaller space bad behavior lasts longer unless it’s reported and gets removed permanently.

[Qixel]

Now, I may sound like a party ruiner, but there are over 50 PvE zones, lots of them indtanced. Why are u so against a pvp zone ?

There are tons of pvp servers, why are so against the one PvE server remaining PvE?

Or so I used to say, but Gurubashi, Hyjal, and Darrowshire (The big pvp servers that launched after turtle) all died. I wonder what they all had in common?

[Afaslizo]

Now, I may sound like a party ruiner, but there are over 50 PvE zones, lots of them indtanced. Why are u so against a pvp zone ?

There are tons of pvp-servers out there. If you want pvp-zones, why are you not playing there if pvp is the most important feature for you? Do you have to haress pve-players?

[Valadorn]

Now, I may sound like a party ruiner, but there are over 50 PvE zones, lots of them indtanced. Why are u so against a pvp zone ?

There are tons of pvp-servers out there. If you want pvp-zones, why are you not playing there if pvp is the most important feature for you? Do you have to haress pve-players?

How exactly does having a separate pvp zone, instanced battlegrounds and opt in world pvp harass PvE people? Also, note that Turtle is not just a PvE server, its a server woth unique features.

[Valadorn]

Now, I may sound like a party ruiner, but there are over 50 PvE zones, lots of them indtanced. Why are u so against a pvp zone ?

There are tons of pvp servers, why are so against the one PvE server remaining PvE?

Or so I used to say, but Gurubashi, Hyjal, and Darrowshire (The big pvp servers that launched after turtle) all died. I wonder what they all had in common?

How exactly does having a separate pvp zone, instanced battlegrounds and opt in world pvp harass PvE people? Also, note that Turtle is not just a PvE server, its a server with unique features.

[Valadorn]

So, to get it straight, u guys are calling me evil, while trying to block and aspect of the game even from those that enjoy it ? Instead of being happy that more ppl join and you can fill dungeons easier?

Let me say is slow:


PvP only affects those that opt in willingly.

[Jambiya]

I’d also add that even on retail pve servers battlegrounds still exist. The only real difference between pvp and pve is the freedom of not being autoflagged in contested zones.

So unless turtle wow devs disable all battlegrounds and the ability to be pvp flagged, you can’t say this server is JUST for pve/rp and nothing else.

[Afaslizo]

How exactly does having a separate pvp zone, instanced battlegrounds and opt in world pvp harass PvE people? Also, note that Turtle is not just a PvE server, its a server with unique features.

No problems with instanced battlegrounds. But that zone would not be seperate but inside the world which should be in a sever mostly dedicated to questing, exploration and rp. A playstyle focusing on disrupting the player experience of others and disrupting the core tenants of the server should not interfere with that.

So, to get it straight, u guys are calling me evil, while trying to block and aspect of the game even from those that enjoy it ? Instead of being happy that more ppl join and you can fill dungeons easier?

Let me say is slow:


PvP only affects those that opt in willingly.

I did never call anyone evil. I just asked why you are not playing on a pvp-server if that is your primary playstyle. I also got no problems with battlegrounds as an instanced area dedicated to brawls. Open world pvp though - at least in my experience - allways leads to more toxity, harrassment and griefing. It disrupts the friendly rp cloud of Turtle and gives way to a rougher and unpleasent crowd.

I’d also add that even on retail pve servers battlegrounds still exist. The only real difference between pvp and pve is the freedom of not being autoflagged in contested zones.

So unless turtle wow devs disable all battlegrounds and the ability to be pvp flagged, you can’t say this server is JUST for pve/rp and nothing else.

Again: no problem with battlegrounds. I just think that warmode, pvp-mode in general in the open world AND now the plans to intermix mandatory pvp-zones aside from capitals into Turtle will detoriate the civil roleplaying community into a toxic server like so many pvp-servers.

[Valadorn]

I will reply in short, there is no plans for FFA PvP zones yet, but there is Gurubashi Arena that is Similar.

On a brighter note, having 1 big Open World PvP zone would attract all PvPers to hangout there, leaving the world free for . . . your kind ? since battlegrounds dont happen that often, people tend to grief in the open.

Having 1 zone where all the PvP players could go and do their things, would do only good in my opinion, even RP wise, since taht zone would be a Warzone ( The game is called world of WARcraft )

I totally respect that you dislike PvP, and nobody is forcing you to take part in it. On the other hand, you are trying to force us to not take part in it either.

Let me finish with the fact that Turtle is not any PvE server, its a server with Unique features which is the reason so many people keep coming here.

As you can see, all other PvE servers died out, and soon the PvP servers will follow.

[Bayanni]

Most severs recently have died due to corrupt admins, poor timing with classic release, the "fresh" crowd server hopping, or a fire.

PvP is only bleeding over into PvE during world chat which was already toxic before warmode. Flagging during an RP event but not wanting to PvP doesn't make sense to me, but maybe that can be explained.

I really don't understand the detractor arguments presented, genuinely. What are people asking to change? No PvP at all? No flagging? Muting if you're flagged? What goal or action do you want? As is, it honestly just sounds like old men on a poarch grumbling about the good old days, but I want to hear the substance of anything that contradicts this observation.

[Monmothma21]

Could devs implement a feature where you could talk to an NPC and switch your gamemode? Like, if you like PvP - switch to a PVP gamemode and get default rules. If you want PvE - you switch to PVE/RP gamemode and lose ability to PVP at all, in any way shape or form. It should be an NPC inside your Capital City, and in order to switch you would have to personaly talk to them(no menus/turning modes on the go).
Fighting ppl that are not interested in PvP is not fun at all, neither for them or you. Let them turn it off and play as they want? This will also allow them to explore those open world PVP zones you were talking about and experience quests in them(if there are any), without feeding PVP players.

[Jambiya]

Again: no problem with battlegrounds. I just think that warmode, pvp-mode in general in the open world AND now the plans to intermix mandatory pvp-zones aside from capitals into Turtle will detoriate the civil roleplaying community into a toxic server like so many pvp-servers.

What are these plans you’re mentioning for mandatory pvp zones? Was there a new announcement on the discord or something?

[Valadorn]

Could devs implement a feature where you could talk to an NPC and switch your gamemode? Like, if you like PvP - switch to a PVP gamemode and get default rules. If you want PvE - you switch to PVE/RP gamemode and lose ability to PVP at all, in any way shape or form. It should be an NPC inside your Capital City, and in order to switch you would have to personaly talk to them(no menus/turning modes on the go).
Fighting ppl that are not interested in PvP is not fun at all, neither for them or you. Let them turn it off and play as they want? This will also allow them to explore those open world PVP zones you were talking about and experience quests in them(if there are any), without feeding PVP players.

Thats exactly the current state, you dont even need the NPC, you just simply type /pvp and it does exactly what u expected from the NPC

[Monmothma21]

Thats exactly the current state, you dont even need the NPC, you just simply type /pvp and it does exactly what u expected from the NPC

I dont know. I was unflaggin myself from PvP at start (with /pvp) but there still were ppl that could, and were able to, kill me. They were yellow/attackable(like on this screenshot) to me.

[Valadorn]

Thats exactly the current state, you dont even need the NPC, you just simply type /pvp and it does exactly what u expected from the NPC

I dont know. I was unflaggin myself from PvP at start (with /pvp) but there still were ppl that could, and were able to, kill me. They were yellow/attackable(like on this screenshot) to me.

If you attack them, why are u surprised that they hit you back ? XD If they are yellow, that means that they cant attack you.

[Monmothma21]

I never attacked anyone, yet I was attacked by a yellow player while being unflagged.

[Valadorn]

That should be impossible

[Monmothma21]

Will i be auto-flaged for PvP if i buff/heal other player that is currently flaged for it/participating in it? Even if i specificaly unflaged myself?
Also, will I get flagged if friendly person, that is actively participates in PVP, buff/heal me?

[Valadorn]

Will i be auto-flaged for PvP if i buff/heal other player that is currently flaged for it/participating in it? Even if i specificaly unflaged myself?
Also, will I get flagged if friendly person, that is actively participates in PVP, buff/heal me?

If you buff or heal a pvp flagged person, you get flagged since you are helping him. But if a flagged person buffs or heals you, you do not get flagged, only if you buff Back.

Flagged people also have green names, like NPCs.
Unflagged people have blue names.

Yellow players are flagged but not aggresive.
Red players will probably attack you.

Hope this helps :) , most people are reasonable and only kill you once, if you whisper them nicely, they will much likely stop and will leave you alone.

Be careful with the jerks, they are a minority, dont let them ruin your game.

[Merikkinon]

Get rid of the Gurubashi Arena teleports. It's moronic overall. The tents? Whatever, if you need that to 'level', then find something in a zone where it is safer. The answer to the scene at the Arena is easy, but I have no idea why devs think this 'feature' is a good one, given the institution of WarMode and the infusion of outsiders who see this as a means to project their crappy personalities onto others. I have one WarMode toon, but I'm not going to be pulling that garbage.

Get rid of the stupid Arena. At least cut down on some of this foolishness. No one NEEDS the freakin Arena. It's just convenience to take advantage of convenience (tents). The tents BY THEMSELVES should be good enough, in any zone.

You all opened the door to it - you knew it would happen (or else Pollyanna-ism is steering the ship), so make some adjustments.

[Merikkinon]

PvP is only bleeding over into PvE during world chat which was already toxic before warmode. Flagging during an RP event but not wanting to PvP doesn't make sense to me, but maybe that can be explained.

I really don't understand the detractor arguments presented, genuinely. What are people asking to change? No PvP at all? No flagging? Muting if you're flagged? What goal or action do you want? As is, it honestly just sounds like old men on a poarch grumbling about the good old days, but I want to hear the substance of anything that contradicts this observation.

1) yeah, community has been changing for awhile. uptick when there was a swing in population due to HC mode, was easy to predict for 1.16.... who did not see that coming? Double the pop, and the sheer number of people who are conflict and insult-oriented increases. Bully behavior, honestly. Epeens.

2) I think it's important for PvP to be as it was in Vanilla. This means people need to THINK about buffing people, not being 'generous' (as they would think) and being the colorblind 'Buffing Fairy'. There is considerate and pro-player, and there is being discerning and astute. People asking for UN-vanilla-esque safeguards are really arguing against the spirit and nature of Vanilla (which, I must say, remains the cultural standard, not TWoW).

[Kiwijello]

This isn't just a PVP thing. Been here for months, and in the last couple of weeks, there has been in influx of new players who are making it very hard to play here. They are toxic, they are only here to cause chaos and discord, and they relish in causing any kind of issue for everyone else.

This WAS the most amazing community, but it's been taken over by try-hards who say whatever they want and if you don't like it, they say "don't be so sensitive". Regardless, the server had rules and none of these people A)read them or B)care.

I don't care if you think I am being sensitive or even a "Karen" when I say the toxic people coming in are ruining the best PWow server. Period.

Sorry if it seems off-topic, but it's not about PVP, it's an underlying issue of no respect for this being a private server with a ruleset, no respect for fellow players, and a real need to ruin things for other people. The sad part is they think they are entitled to act that way because there are no repercussions.

Turtle was so much better than this. Welcome back to retail...

[Mac]

Get rid of the Gurubashi Arena teleports. It's moronic overall. The tents? Whatever, if you need that to 'level', then find something in a zone where it is safer. The answer to the scene at the Arena is easy, but I have no idea why devs think this 'feature' is a good one, given the institution of WarMode and the infusion of outsiders who see this as a means to project their crappy personalities onto others. I have one WarMode toon, but I'm not going to be pulling that garbage.

Get rid of the stupid Arena. At least cut down on some of this foolishness. No one NEEDS the freakin Arena. It's just convenience to take advantage of convenience (tents). The tents BY THEMSELVES should be good enough, in any zone.

You all opened the door to it - you knew it would happen (or else Pollyanna-ism is steering the ship), so make some adjustments.

Getting rid of the arena teleport wouldn't be that bad. I've noticed, since warmode started, there have been a lot of tents going up in Goldshire and outside the gates of Orgrimmar. I would bet that, if you removed the arena teleport, those two spots would become the default spots for tents. And honestly, in a way, those are better spots since they're actually areas that new players would stumble across.