Final Changelog for Class Changes coming in 1.16.1

[Notawen]

Im honored to be a part of this.

[Panzerenhancer]

Right.

So i have read the changes in depth now, and it seems like a good effort overall, but there is a "however" here.


From what i can tell you are overbuffing druids of all specs. downright, no question about it. you are giving feral druids access to swiftmend for example, and you're implementing tree of life and moonkin form into vanilla along with some really generous buffs to those forms.


then i have a look at the paladin buffs which are all also pretty good and well intended, i can't really argue against the retri paladin buffs but honestly, holy paladin does NOT need any buffs whatsoever, i think you're making a grave mistake by buffing the "meta" paladin spec even further. all you had to do was buff retri and prot and leave holy alone.


then i scroll down to the shaman changes and while i am intrigued by the new racials (which i will get back to later) i think the changes to i.e enhancement is incredibly underwhelming compared to the changes made to every other "meme" spec on this list.
you're just giving enhancement shamans even more utility that will be used on party members rather than fixing their core issues which is mana sustain and personal dps output.

Yes, you can argue that they can bloodlust themselves, but we all know that this will never be the case as this buff is put to much better use on a meta class like a warrior dps, a mage, or a tank, or even a healer..
same goes for the lightning shield on allies which will only serve to further nerf the shaman's personal dps output and is really more of a restoration shaman buff than an enhancement shaman buff, and from what i have heard the allied LS doesn't even generate threat for the target its cast on, which would have been the one saving grace to this talent as you can now further help tanks generate aggro.

Stormstrike rank 2 is a step in the right direction, but its still not enough to justify bringing an enhancement shaman as due to the debuff cap enh shamans will usually not be allowed to even use stormstrike as it might overwrite more important debuffs such as ignite.

to buff enhancement to the point of being viable in vanilla some fundamental changes are needed;

1. Bloodlust needs to affect their whole party, even if its the nerfed version of the spell as proposed here (half duration and half effect) that would at least incentivize people to give them a raid spot.

2. They desperately need mana sustain talents/spells like Shamanistic Rage from TBC.

3. Personal DPS MUST see an increase for them to be viable in PVE content. the easiest way to go about this is to implement dual wield for enhancement shamans and/or the ability to equip plate. i know this sounds extreme, but if you walk a day in the shoes of an enh shaman you'll know why either of these changes are needed.

4. a gap closer for PVP is desperately needed, be it a warrior-like charge ability or a druidification of Ghost Wolf.
and by that i mean in regards to the idea of a charge ability, this needs to work much like intercept - usable in combat with a root/slow removal on use along with immunity to such spells and effects for 2-4 seconds on use with a 15-20 second cooldown, and in case of a "druidification" of ghost wolf; have it be instant cast (when talented) and make it remove poly/root/slow effects when used and make it undispellable - bump the mana cost up accordingly.
note that i am not saying BOTH of these changes should be implemented, but one or the other at the least.

in regards to the new shaman racial spells, i only have this to say:

1. Feral Spirits should last 30 seconds, not 20 (assuming the wolves do not heal the shaman and have no charge ability) AND they need to be immune to spells like frost nova, and have a relatively short cooldown (below 5 minutes).

2. Spirit Link is a dangerous spell, specifically because its going to be more effective the higher every player affected armor values are, if it also reduces elemental damage (like ice, fire etc.) its even more powerful. i can see Tauren becoming thee meta race for shaman if the spell works like i think it does, particularly for resto spec.

3. Hex needs a 2-3 min cooldown, not 5 minutes, for it to have any true meaning, especially since players affected can still attack while under the effects of Hex and its short duration will only do that much for the shaman. compare this to spells like polymorph which can be spammed and lasts for 30 seconds straight up without any DR to prevent its usage.
i know for a fact that if i was making a fresh lvl 1 shaman, my last choice of race would be troll if my only CC ability was on a 5 minute cooldown and didn't even give me a proper advantage in regards to keeping i.e a melee class from harassing me (since they can still attack).


those are my main points of critique for these changes. i think the rest of the changes are rather decent, however in my opinion some of those priest "champion" buffs are drastically OP. Same goes for the rogue 20% parry, which imo needs to be dumped down to 10% at most.

[Karrados]

I still have hopes that the Elemental Specc will get a Talent swap announced on the 27th. Swapping Call of Thunder and Lightning Mastery would be a huge step towards being able to level as an Elemental Shaman without having to cast a spell that needs 3 seconds and does less damage than an auto-hit.

Right now Enhancer is the only viable leveling specc that does not make you want to tear your hair out (or whatever is left of it).

[Velite]

Ret paladins and Enh shamans need a passive threat reduction talent once their talents are good enough that they start to do decent dps.

[Milodrough]

Paladins got 30% incresed shield block value, Warrios should have so too.
Paladins got alot improvement as dps class, while Enh Shamans got only Bloodlust which incresses dps for whole party. I suggest reduce Stormstrike cooldown from 20 to 12sec and reduce it mana cost for 30%
About shaman racial spells... just give every race Spirit Wolves. This will be also useful for future if you gonna add Shaman class to other race.

[Karrados]

Paladins got 30% incresed shield block value, Warrios should have so too.
Paladins got alot improvement as dps class, while Enh Shamans got only Bloodlust which incresses dps for whole party. I suggest reduce Stormstrike cooldown from 20 to 12sec and reduce it mana cost for 30%
About shaman racial spells... just give every race Spirit Wolves. This will be also useful for future if you gonna add Shaman class to other race.

Bloodlust only increases the DPS of one Person.

[Milodrough]

Bloodlust only increases the DPS of one Person.

Holy crap, what a waste

[Chappinhas3000]

agree with the underwhelming enhancement shammy, my suggestions:
-make bloodlust cast on an ally and the shaman ( so you will always have one on you )
- I will comment on SS when I see how the lvl 60 version of the spell affects the mana cost
-give the weapon expertise talent 10 % attack speed passive alongside the damage increase.
-also maybe allow the use of a fist weapon offhand for greater playstyles.
-for survivability, maybe add -3% chance to be hit in anticipation talent ( for ranged attacks and spells maybe ?)

Pretty sad about paladins actually, both they and enhance shamans are auto attack based support classes not meant to top dps charts, I wonder how the addition of yet another strike will impact the paladin gameplay style.

[Kero]

Please consider adding melee weapon racial skills to all the races. For example, humans get maces, dwarves get axes, gnomes get fists, highelves get swords, nightelves get dagger. Making these changes will add more diversity to the world. Theorycrafters would begin to foam at their mouths. Endgame gear would be less wasted. Turtle is about improving the vanilla world and giving players more options. I cant really see the negatives of this, but weapon skill is a huge defining factor in race choice and forces players to roll human more than other races. It would be great to see more dwarven rets, highelf warriors, nightelf rogues. Thank you for your time.

[Velite]

Many people are apparently confused here, crusader strike will add about 25 ish dps to paladins if you were to spam it as it does not scale with anything, and costs mana so you will oom if using max rank, using lowest rank is about 10 dps. Retribution paladin is not getting significant improvements outside of the quality of life things that many other classes including shaman is getting. Crusader strike contributes the same amount of dps as hamstring, without being able to proc anything.

Enhancement shaman received significantly more talent changes than retribution paladin.

[Nestrem]

Druid

Claw change is good but not needed, this skill is used when soloing
To buff cat dps you should be increasing shred or rake damage, not claw

Although overall druid I think is seeing the most buffs I would say these are all good and fair

Hunter

Good, Aspect of the wolf... great to see.. but what? errr. sure. Hunters will take it. It means more aspect switching which is fun but hunters are already doing a lot of that already.

A good change but a strange one. It puts aspect of the monkey in a strange place and less worthy of a keybind slot for some players maybe, assuming you are using it for soloing. Perhaps rework wolf and monkey in to one aspect? not sure about this. I don't have any other suggestion


Warriors

Strange you are making having to switch stances less, but then giving us more incentive to switch stances at the same time by giving retaliation 20% parry. I understand you would always use this skill anyway and I'm not saying it's a bad change. But 20% parry is huge for tanking bosses and they are already the best at tanking bosses, this change seems to come from nowhere (?)

If this is a pvp change then I'm just not understanding it, slows and roots are all that hard counters a warrior

Intervene I don't quite get, it's easier to target mobs then players for most of us unless you are using a macro, in a panic i would rather use Intercept, enemys i have name plates for targetting, players never do, and no one else i have seen play say does either.
It is however just another way of saving rage while in defense stance. Which is also inherently a buff to warrior damage (fury tanks) which we all know is NOT needed.
It's a small change but it comes from nowhere with no reason I can see behind it

If you want to take anything of the above this then I would say re-look at the druid claw change
If i worded anything in a way that sounded like I am trying to offend anyone I'm not trying to and apologies in advance. I say I dont understand something either because I think it could be done another way or literally you have taken something in a direction that I need better game knowledge about. Thanks for the effort and good work.

I would also agree with others and say please if you are rebalancing classes consider rebalancing racial passives too

[Akuraigan]

My favorite is the shaman racial "Hex" for Troll, fit so well :*)

[Feomatar]

I think rogue needs this:
1. Slice and dice. No need number changes, but remove stealth breaking if used in stealth.
2. Initiative. Simple make it 100% instead of 75%, like rogue have enough gamble without this))
3. New finisher in incoming class changes are useless, if rogue both pvp and pve in situation of facetanking something - u play rogue wrong and\or 20% parry will not help u at all. Instead of it needed something like cata healing finisher, cause rogue are really weak against dots, and its was fixed with cloak in tbc (what is 2 much for vanilla pls DONT give rogue cloak of shadow, plays around rogue stealth plays and opponents who try to prevent it, is good and interesting play-stile to both, but simple "haha i dot u so you die and i will just stay and heal "mecanic"" is pretty retarded. Plus it will help a lot for solo player rogues who lvling not only in dungeons more enjoin lvling experience, plus it doesnt affect group pvp like at all, so everybody is happy (but not shadow prists, who will get manaregen and will be happy to dot u up and just stay and heal themselves (very interesting pvp, much skill such tactic)). Nothing extraordinary, something like "tough times" heal your wounds (can be used in stealth without breaking it) - 1cp 300 hp for 3 sec to 5cp 1500 hp within 15 sec with 0.15% ap multiplier (numbers are not final at all) at last rank of the spell.
4. Even i personally doubt about it, but gcd affected kick doesnt fit rogue playstile at all, but this can ruin balance so its just "i say only to make u think about it".
5. Improved sap must be row 3 talent what can be learned after 2\2 elusiveness.
6. Premeditation... Its a joke of last talent, its must be row 4 b4 prep where its belong. Last talent must be something like "shadow quickness" - give u 15% movement speed bonus and 5 bonus per tick energy regeneration in stealth and for 15 seconds after leaving it (numbers not final, only to describe concept). So rogues will can make choice - brute force with cold blood in deep assassination or less damage but more mobility and energy sustain with sub last talent.
7. Improved sap have 2 points in it for 50% each, 3 talents is 2 much to get basically only normal functionality of spell.
8 Serrated blades - giving percentage armor penetration instead of numbers if its possible to do in vanilla ( 3-6-9% per talent point)
Basically thats it how i think is the best way to have QoL changes to rogue almost without buffing them, whats u think?

[Garish]

I think rogue needs this:
1. Slice and dice. No need number changes, but remove stealth breaking if used in stealth.
2. Initiative. Simple make it 100% instead of 75%, like rogue have enough gamble without this))
3. New finisher in incoming class changes are useless, if rogue both pvp and pve in situation of facetanking something - u play rogue wrong and\or 20% parry will not help u at all. Instead of it needed something like cata healing finisher, cause rogue are really weak against dots, and its was fixed with cloak in tbc (what is 2 much for vanilla pls DONT give rogue cloak of shadow, plays around rogue stealth plays and opponents who try to prevent it, is good and interesting play-stile to both, but simple "haha i dot u so you die and i will just stay and heal "mecanic"" is pretty retarded. Plus it will help a lot for solo player rogues who lvling not only in dungeons more enjoin lvling experience, plus it doesnt affect group pvp like at all, so everybody is happy (but not shadow prists, who will get manaregen and will be happy to dot u up and just stay and heal themselves (very interesting pvp, much skill such tactic)). Nothing extraordinary, something like "tough times" heal your wounds (can be used in stealth without breaking it) - 1cp 300 hp for 3 sec to 5cp 1500 hp within 15 sec with 0.15% ap multiplier (numbers are not final at all) at last rank of the spell.
4. Even i personally doubt about it, but gcd affected kick doesnt fit rogue playstile at all, but this can ruin balance so its just "i say only to make u think about it".
5. Improved sap must be row 3 talent what can be learned after 2\2 elusiveness.
6. Premeditation... Its a joke of last talent, its must be row 4 b4 prep where its belong. Last talent must be something like "shadow quickness" - give u 15% movement speed bonus and 5 bonus per tick energy regeneration in stealth and for 15 seconds after leaving it (numbers not final, only to describe concept). So rogues will can make choice - brute force with cold blood in deep assassination or less damage but more mobility and energy sustain with sub last talent.
7. Improved sap have 2 points in it for 50% each, 3 talents is 2 much to get basically only normal functionality of spell.
8 Serrated blades - giving percentage armor penetration instead of numbers if its possible to do in vanilla ( 3-6-9% per talent point)
Basically thats it how i think is the best way to have QoL changes to rogue almost without buffing them, whats u think?

Rogue self healing is nice but % AP is gettin a bit too far, rogues Ap is for squish targets, the "tank killer" build is from bleeds and/or poisons

[Feomatar]

I think rogue needs this:
1. Slice and dice. No need number changes, but remove stealth breaking if used in stealth.
2. Initiative. Simple make it 100% instead of 75%, like rogue have enough gamble without this))
3. New finisher in incoming class changes are useless, if rogue both pvp and pve in situation of facetanking something - u play rogue wrong and\or 20% parry will not help u at all. Instead of it needed something like cata healing finisher, cause rogue are really weak against dots, and its was fixed with cloak in tbc (what is 2 much for vanilla pls DONT give rogue cloak of shadow, plays around rogue stealth plays and opponents who try to prevent it, is good and interesting play-stile to both, but simple "haha i dot u so you die and i will just stay and heal "mecanic"" is pretty retarded. Plus it will help a lot for solo player rogues who lvling not only in dungeons more enjoin lvling experience, plus it doesnt affect group pvp like at all, so everybody is happy (but not shadow prists, who will get manaregen and will be happy to dot u up and just stay and heal themselves (very interesting pvp, much skill such tactic)). Nothing extraordinary, something like "tough times" heal your wounds (can be used in stealth without breaking it) - 1cp 300 hp for 3 sec to 5cp 1500 hp within 15 sec with 0.15% ap multiplier (numbers are not final at all) at last rank of the spell.
4. Even i personally doubt about it, but gcd affected kick doesnt fit rogue playstile at all, but this can ruin balance so its just "i say only to make u think about it".
5. Improved sap must be row 3 talent what can be learned after 2\2 elusiveness.
6. Premeditation... Its a joke of last talent, its must be row 4 b4 prep where its belong. Last talent must be something like "shadow quickness" - give u 15% movement speed bonus and 5 bonus per tick energy regeneration in stealth and for 15 seconds after leaving it (numbers not final, only to describe concept). So rogues will can make choice - brute force with cold blood in deep assassination or less damage but more mobility and energy sustain with sub last talent.
7. Improved sap have 2 points in it for 50% each, 3 talents is 2 much to get basically only normal functionality of spell.
8 Serrated blades - giving percentage armor penetration instead of numbers if its possible to do in vanilla ( 3-6-9% per talent point)
Basically thats it how i think is the best way to have QoL changes to rogue almost without buffing them, whats u think?

Rogue self healing is nice but % AP is gettin a bit too far, rogues Ap is for squish targets, the "tank killer" build is from bleeds and/or poisons

Numbers of healing finisher and last sub talent not even close to be final. its just a concept. Like its can be 300-1500 without ap multipliers or 200-1000 with, i said what this class lack and will be nice QoL change)

[Linxoid]

Warrior Protection change

Shield Specialization [Row 1]
Increases your chance to block attacks with a shield by 1% and has a 20/40/60/80/100% chance to generate 1 rage when a block, dodge, or parry occurs.

[Noemad]

Hello fellow Turtlers,

Long-time stalker, first-time poster here. I've gone back and forth looking at the class changes that are listed in the original post, and since the update has been delayed twice now, I'm going to guess they'll probably change somewhat, but wanted to take the time to throw in a little bit of my two cents for the Prot Paladins.

I main a prot pally on retail, and really wanted to just stick with that coming back to a classic/vanilla style server. Even though I know full well that they're quite undesirable in vanilla. However, when I heard about Turtle, I thought why the heck not?

On top of the changes listed for Prot Paladins, I think it's crucial that 2, maybe 3 things happen in tandem.

1) Prot Paladins need a taunt, whether that be by a baseline spell or a new talent. It's a must to make them compete in raid encounters that require a taunt option. Relying on Righteous Fury is simply not enough.

2) Seal of Wisdom / Judgement of Wisdom. One of prot paladins biggest issues - because Vanilla mana pools suck - is mana. If you play a mitigation spec prot paladin, and tanking in raids, you're going to be running SoW/JoW plus a fast 1h weapon to increase mana regen and alternating between rank 1 spells and final ranks to conserve mana. The moment a prot paladin runs out of mana it's game over. Either introducing a mana regen specific to the prot talent tree, or buffing SoW/JoW would greatly benefit the talent tree.

3) The introduction of the BC talent Ardent Defender is really welcome, but something else besides a taunt that prot paladins lack up against warrior tanks is an emergency damage mitigation skill. (e.g Shield Wall)

These changes wouldn't necessarily allow the Prot Paladin of Turtle-WoW to be overpowered in any way, but would actually make them viable and playable as a main tank in raids. Something I'm sure a lot of people would love.

Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

[Darreno]

If you're going to buff Paladin that much, then you need to spend more time on making Shaman viable as a tank and also make more improvements to Prot Warrior (and nerf fury and remove the fury prot meta).

Shaman Tanking is viable did you mean to say better?

[Garish]

Guys with the add Wolf aspect i think that surv PRIMARY ROLE could be a thing
(Look at the symbol of the SURV Tree, its a AXE! a BLOODY AXE not a trap or a some support symbol) Rexxar just thrown a axe when he needs a "ranged" damage

My take on Hunter survival:
as a melee hunter u need to side tank with your pet when leveling,that is the MAJOR drawback for the melee hunter
and SURV tree today is a ranged STAT+ tree without a purpose in it.
monkey aspect is better than wolf aspect in melee tbh, MB procs more, 13% dodge, being able to shot.
1.Wolf aspect turn into a row 3 talent (swapping deterrence), (wolf aspect being a surv talent is what makes viable new buffs and changes)
2.new Melee Attack power/weapon scale for melee spells(being fair with the melee AP boost of WA)
3.mongoose bite work on parry.(if you want dodge go monkey)
4.counter attack turn in to a disarm, same as rogue ( imp Wingclip talent has the same effect as counter attack now)
5.Raptor strike CD buff in wolf aspect
6.deterrence is base lane lvl20-40 spell with 2 ranks(15% at 1 rank 25% 2 rank) cmon guys is a 5 min def cd row 3 TALENT just add some +5min in cd

i think thats the safe(st) way to improve survival tree.(if you think that this buffs ranged hunters, just put more mana cost into WA)
This changes make a SURV/BM (21/0/30) viable in pvp and leveling(i dunno pve)

#some ideas for pve and pvp viabilization for melee (dont mind this 2 much)
1.Your new (trueshot) spell buffs your melee Attack speed with time charges. making you turn off your wolf aspect and go in shoot distance to reapply sort of a mechanic, if u cant kill your target in time.
2.Mend pet works as self healing spell with -90% healing effect, ONLY when the WOLF ASPECT is ON (BM talent can improve that,making it a melee hunter only dispell for poisons and diseases)
3.Killer instinct talent (ROW 5 SUV) buffs your melee haste when the target is bleeding (every pve melee class needs a AS boost in some way)
4.new melee "Finisher" spell based on bleed

What do you guys think? (sry for my english not my first, or second language)

[Feomatar]

Guys my take on Hunter survival changes:

1.Wolf aspect turn into a talent (swapping deterrence), and lacerate tuns into a inside passive bleed for melee crits in wolf aspect(like warrior DW)
some other things:
1.2.melee range trap placement when Wolf aspect is active
2.a new ap scale for melee spells(Mongoose Bite is a must!)
3.mongoose bite working on parrys.
4.counter attack turn in to a disarm, same as rogue ( imp Wingclip talent has the same effect as counter attack now)
5.Raptor strike turn instant in wolf aspect(or just low to none cd) imagine a low hittin Heroic strike with 6 sec cd.
6.deterrence is base lane lvl25 spell with 2 levels(15% at 1 rank 25% 2 rank)

i think thats the safe(st) way to improve survival tree.
This changes make a SURV/BM (21/0/30) viable in pvp and leveling(i dunno pve)


#crazy ideas
1.pathfinding (row 3 BM) buffs your Ms when u turn wolf aspect ON for a limited amount of time(2.5sec per lvl, 5 sec at max) or when you lacerate bleed is on the target.
2.A new shoot spell that buffs your melee Attack speed. making you turn off your wolf aspect and go in shoot distance to reapply sort of a mechanic, if u cant kill your target in time.
3.Mend pet works as self healing spell with 33%(or less) healing when the WOLF ASPECT is ON (BM talent can improve that,making it a melee hunter only dispell for poisons and diseases)

This and a change to pet diversity will double the hunter pop of the server 100% but is worth.

What do you guys think?

Aand thats make range hunter super op in pvp.

[Garish]

Guys my take on Hunter survival changes:

1.Wolf aspect turn into a talent (swapping deterrence), and lacerate tuns into a inside passive bleed for melee crits in wolf aspect(like warrior DW)
some other things:
1.2.melee range trap placement when Wolf aspect is active
2.a new ap scale for melee spells(Mongoose Bite is a must!)
3.mongoose bite working on parrys.
4.counter attack turn in to a disarm, same as rogue ( imp Wingclip talent has the same effect as counter attack now)
5.Raptor strike turn instant in wolf aspect(or just low to none cd) imagine a low hittin Heroic strike with 6 sec cd.
6.deterrence is base lane lvl25 spell with 2 levels(15% at 1 rank 25% 2 rank)

i think thats the safe(st) way to improve survival tree.
This changes make a SURV/BM (21/0/30) viable in pvp and leveling(i dunno pve)


#crazy ideas
1.pathfinding (row 3 BM) buffs your Ms when u turn wolf aspect ON for a limited amount of time(2.5sec per lvl, 5 sec at max) or when you lacerate bleed is on the target.
2.A new shoot spell that buffs your melee Attack speed. making you turn off your wolf aspect and go in shoot distance to reapply sort of a mechanic, if u cant kill your target in time.
3.Mend pet works as self healing spell with 33%(or less) healing when the WOLF ASPECT is ON (BM talent can improve that,making it a melee hunter only dispell for poisons and diseases)

This and a change to pet diversity will double the hunter pop of the server 100% but is worth.

What do you guys think?

Aand thats make range hunter super op in pvp.

range hunter?? making a 17/23/11 build??
because its the only way to get all this buffs, and wolf aspect turn off ranged spell tho.
discuss about it...

[Lorencor]

Guys my take on Hunter survival changes:

1.Wolf aspect turn into a talent (swapping deterrence), and lacerate tuns into a inside passive bleed for melee crits in wolf aspect(like warrior DW) 
some other things:
1.2.melee range trap placement when Wolf aspect is active
2.a new ap scale for melee spells(Mongoose Bite is a must!)
3.mongoose bite working on parrys.
4.counter attack turn in to a disarm, same as rogue ( imp Wingclip talent has the same effect as counter attack now)
5.Raptor strike turn instant in wolf aspect(or just low to none cd) imagine a low hittin Heroic strike with 6 sec cd.
6.deterrence is base lane lvl25 spell with 2 levels(15% at 1 rank 25% 2 rank)

i think thats the safe(st) way to improve survival tree.
This changes make a SURV/BM (21/0/30) viable in pvp and leveling(i dunno pve)


#crazy ideas 
1.pathfinding (row 3 BM) buffs your Ms when u turn wolf aspect ON for a limited amount of time(2.5sec per lvl, 5 sec at max) or when you lacerate bleed is on the target.
2.A new shoot spell that buffs your melee Attack speed. making you turn off your wolf aspect and go in shoot distance to reapply sort of a mechanic, if u cant kill your target in time.
3.Mend pet works as self healing spell with 33%(or less) healing when the WOLF ASPECT is ON (BM talent can improve that,making it a melee hunter only dispell for poisons and diseases)

This and a change to pet diversity will double the hunter pop of the server 100% but is worth.

What do you guys think?

Dude, calm down.

[Dalijon]

To all those bashing the devs and threatening to leave if they make these changes... bye Felicia! The server has seen rapid population growth over the past two weeks, and that's even before the talent changes are active. There are "no changes" vanilla servers out there - go find one. I came to the server specifically BECAUSE of the amazing things the devs are doing. Keep it up!

[Garish]

Guys my take on Hunter survival changes:

1.Wolf aspect turn into a talent (swapping deterrence), and lacerate tuns into a inside passive bleed for melee crits in wolf aspect(like warrior DW) 
some other things:
1.2.melee range trap placement when Wolf aspect is active
2.a new ap scale for melee spells(Mongoose Bite is a must!)
3.mongoose bite working on parrys.
4.counter attack turn in to a disarm, same as rogue ( imp Wingclip talent has the same effect as counter attack now)
5.Raptor strike turn instant in wolf aspect(or just low to none cd) imagine a low hittin Heroic strike with 6 sec cd.
6.deterrence is base lane lvl25 spell with 2 levels(15% at 1 rank 25% 2 rank)

i think thats the safe(st) way to improve survival tree.
This changes make a SURV/BM (21/0/30) viable in pvp and leveling(i dunno pve)


#crazy ideas 
1.pathfinding (row 3 BM) buffs your Ms when u turn wolf aspect ON for a limited amount of time(2.5sec per lvl, 5 sec at max) or when you lacerate bleed is on the target.
2.A new shoot spell that buffs your melee Attack speed. making you turn off your wolf aspect and go in shoot distance to reapply sort of a mechanic, if u cant kill your target in time.
3.Mend pet works as self healing spell with 33%(or less) healing when the WOLF ASPECT is ON (BM talent can improve that,making it a melee hunter only dispell for poisons and diseases)

This and a change to pet diversity will double the hunter pop of the server 100% but is worth.

What do you guys think?

Dude, calm down.

oK,sry... im just a regular Rexxar enjoyer.

[Feomatar]

I dont get, crusader strike will be like tbc one but with debuff or like warrior sunder armor without actual strike?

[Monmothma21]

For warriors specificaly, you said that all changes should:

"either optimize what doesn’t work but should for the class, or improve on suboptimal playstyles to allow for more options for the player".

Warrior still, imho, has some "suboptimal" things that dont work and can be improved. Mainly stuff like Enrage for PVE or talents like Booming Voice, which, i bet, almost no one takes. It would be cool if you could add some kind of mechanics to compensate for that.

______________________________________________

My suggestions are as follows:

[Enrage] - it costs 5 points and serves as the means to aquire [Flurry]. Other then that it just sits there and does nothing for you most of the time(in PVE). For it my suggestions would be:

• Warriors have [Bloodrage/Berseker Rage], you could make it so [Bloodrage/Berseker Rage] would be able to trigger [Enrage]. This way you could have [Enrage] atleast once a minute, on demand. There is [Anger Management] talent which is(in this version) is a bit meh. You could, maybe, add additional bonus that will allow your [Bloodrage/Berseker Rage] to trigger [Enrage] while you are in [Berserker Stance]? To compensate for the boost its gonna give you could impose a penalty that, if [Enrage] is triggered this way, would reduce the bonus damage from it by 50%(to 12%) OR reduce the amount of charges to ~3. It could also generate additional threat, so the player would have to be careful of when they burst and for how much/long

• Maybe reduce its cost to 3(and its damage bonus to 15%)? Im not sure what to spend 2 points you gonna save from doing this (other then maybe thunderclap/charge talent or the one suggested below) but there would be an option to.

[Booming Voice] - and improved Demo Shout could be combined in to one? Their price could be, potentialy, maybe, reduced to 2-3 points and their effectiveness adjusted to compensate lower cost.
Its like 5 points each and im pretty sure the only thing that ppl will take instead would be improved Battle Shout.
If you can not leave a blank spot and absolutely have to replace existing talent with something - i could suggest to add a [hit chance] talent or something for [Mocking Blow]?

[Improved Mocking Blow] - Mocking an enemy with it would make them act reckless, reducing the damage they do to you by 4/8/10/12/15%, for the next 6 seconds?

Another alternative could be making Improved Demo Shout reduce your threat towards selected enemy(one/single) by half of the amount Priest Fade or any similar abiities do, but with CD twice as long.

[Improved Demoralization Shout] - Bewilders and shocks your target, making them less likely to attack you. Reduces your threat towards the target by a flat amount of 12/77/142/220/310. This effect can occure once every 1 minute.
(i belive those amounts are half of what Fade temporarely reduces by)

______________________________________________

Thank you.

[Dalijon]

I heard that the class changes had been pushed back to the end of the month (of January). I totally understand that you (developers) are getting bombarded with suggestions left and right. You will never make everyone happy - it just won't happen. I'm really looking forward to what you will implement! Is there a new timeline for when things will roll out, or are you still shooting for the end of January?

[Reploidrocsa]

any news about the class changes or no ETA yet?

[Geojak]

Discord claimed 31 of feburay... Funny date choice

[Afaslizo]

A date that doesn't exist means it will never come ;) :P

[Witch101]

Please lower the cooldown of Hurricane for Druids. Thanks

[Zhohan]

oK,sry... im just a regular Rexxar enjoyer.

It's okay. You were just ACTING ON INSTINCT.

[Jubabuba]

Please make axe rogues possible i would love to play a ork rogue with axes

[Mooncake]

Please make axe rogues possible i would love to play a ork rogue with axes

Sounds like survival hunter to me

[Linxoid]

News about the class changes?