PLEASE Fix the Blessings/Totems Buff Conflict Bug

[Tarluk]

For those who don't know, there is a bug on the vMaNGOS server core that pretty much all Vanilla pservers, including Turtle WoW, use as a basis; the bug causes totems to overwrite/remove similar buffs created by Paladins (Windfury and Strength of Earth Totem overwrites both Blessing of Might and Kings, Mana Spring and Mana Tide Totem overwrite Blessing of Wisdom, Stoneskin Totem overwrites both Blessing of Sanctuary and Devotion Aura, Tranquil Air overwrites Blessing of Salvation).

This bug has been known to be a bug for a few years now, since it directly contradicts Classic behavior where a player can be affected by both totems and blessings at the same time without either overwriting the other (in other words, it works exactly like it does in TBC, where the only buffs of the two classes that conflict are Resistance Totems/Auras of the same resistance; that's it), but it never got fixed on vMaNGOS until fairly recently since it didn't really matter; there weren't any servers that had cross-faction capabilities.

Now that there is such a server in the form of Turtle WoW, though, the bug has caused a myriad of huge problems for both Paladins and Shamans, and even players who don't play either of those classes will have no doubt noticed the annoyances it's caused in both raids and any sort of dungeon with both a Paladin and Shaman in the group. Paladins just aren't allowed to use many of their blessings at all on melees who are in a group with a Shaman in raids, and in dungeons, Shamans are pretty much forbidden from using almost all of their totems. But the Turtle team has been extremely adamant about refusing to fix this bug, for a full year now at this point, with the main reason being that "it would make Warriors too good with WF + Might + Kings."

To address the fallacy right away: contrary to what many, including the devs, might first think, Warriors could not give less of a damn about the blessings in raids. All that not having blessings in raids does for them is make their hollow dps meters look a little bit smaller. The only class that's really affected by this is the Paladin, as the DPS increase caused by Blessings was provided by the Paladin in the first place, the Warriors are merely the medium that much of the Paladin's contribution to the raid is going through; they're balanced in a raid environment around being able to contribute those support Blessings to the raids, unlike Warriors or healing Priests who focus on raw DPS or healing. The same goes for the Shamans, and I'll get to them later.

The game in raids wouldn't get any easier if Warriors could use both Blessings and Totems, because either way a Warrior in a complete meta environment could just replace a third/fourth Paladin and provide far more raid-wide DPS, or have any other class replace either the Paladin or the Shaman in a dungeon group with both classes and still provide the same amount of effectiveness in terms of damage, healing, and/or utility (and interestingly enough, the devs did fix the Ignite bug which caused Fire Mages to output far less dps than they otherwise should've, which actually did make many of the raids much easier by fixing it). All that not fixing this bug does is cause both Paladins and Shamans to be able to contribute far less to their dungeon and raid environments, being one of the only instances in the entire game where classes are directly making each other worse in a group environment, actively discouraging teamplay between those two classes, something that no other class in the game has to deal with at all.

Now to get onto more big problems this bug causes:

• Shamans are completely throttled out of using their basic kit in dungeons. If a shaman gets into any dungeon group with a Paladin in it (which is most groups, because a much higher quantity of people are playing Paladin on this server compared to other servers), then Shamans are completely locked out of using most of their totems in dungeons. As a matter of fact, until they hit level 32, it's literally ALL of their totems except for their Fire Totem, because a single Paladin can buff everybody with either Might or Wisdom and provide far more than the Shaman ever would be able to with Strength of Earth and Mana Spring. And even when they hit level 32, they only get to use their Windfury Totem. "What about Stoneskin?", you may ask. Unfortunately, that's a no-go as well, because not only does it override Blessing of Sanctuary (a vital buff for the tank if a prot paladin with it is in the group), but it also overrides Devotion Aura, an aura that provides more physical damage mitigation and is the most useful aura in a dungeon setting in most situations anyway. So the Earth Totem slot is rendered obsolete, and the Water Totem slot isn't used in dungeons either because the next best thing (Healing Stream) is bad enough that it's just considered a waste of mana and a GCD. Most Enhancement Shamans I've seen while leveling don't bother with the Enhancing Totems talent despite it otherwise being really good since it's rendered obsolete in the vast majority of dungeon groups, and I shit you not, I've seen paladins who haven't even learned SoE or Mana Spring Totems at all while leveling.
  
  There's been quite a few people I've talked to in game who have said that they outright chose not to level a Shaman specifically because of this bug. Dungeons were already infuriating enough to deal with in many groups even as a Paladin trying to work around this infuriating bug with my blessings, spending minutes trying to sort out which blessings to use and which totems to use so thatt the Shaman doesn't accidentally remove multiple better buffs off of everybody in the dungeon and it's so much worse as a Shaman since totems are a far larger and more impactful part of your kit than even Blessings are for Paladins. If losing out on Blessings as a Paladin is like losing out on Shadowform or Moonkin Form as a Shadow Priest / Balance Druid, then losing out on Totems as a Shaman is like losing out on finisher abiilities as a Rogue. And considering how little supply there is for Shamans despite the mass demand for them in raids, having anything like this bug that discourages people from playing Shamans is just absolutely terrible for everyone involved

• Ret Paladins are actually worse off on this server compared to Classic. Hell, if this bug doesn't get fixed by the time 1.15.2 comes around, they'll still be worse off even with all the new fancy shmancy changes. Why is that, even though they have Holy Strike, even though they can take advantage of Windfury Totem? Because for all the flaws that Ret Paladin has in Classic, at least they could give Imp Blessing of Might or Kings to the raid. Much of why they're balanced to be worse DPS is because they're support DPS; what they lack in personal dps, they (somewhat) make up for in improving raidwide dps with their blessings. Now, they're just worse warriors in every department, since all the melee support they could've provided to themselves and all the others is completely stripped away due to the bug. There's no reason not to take another Warrior over a Ret Paladin now.

• The issue of Shamans not being able to utilize their totems continues in raids as well when in caster groups. Of course, due to the lack of shamans on this server, there aren't even enough shamans to be able to cover all the melee dps much of the time, but a Shaman in a caster group can't offer anything due to both Mana Spring and Tranquil Air being completely dead totems due to Wisdom and Salvation being strictly better. It's literally the scenario that Shamans have in dungeons all over again in raids as well. We could've had an interesting niche for Elemental Shamans where they could've buffed the threat reduction of the casters alongside Salvation (and perhaps have lessened the issue of mana for the caster off-specs where going oom is a massive issue), but alas, that can't happen because of the bug. There's no point in even speccing into Mana Tide as a Resto Shaman, let alone Restorative Totems.

• Shaman tanks might actually be able to stand somewhat of a chance in raids if they were able to actually be able to utilize Paladin buffs at all alongside their totems. If they could actually use Stoneskin, Sanctuary, and Devo Aura all at once, if they could actually use Blessing of Kings alongside Grace of Air Totem, then they might actually be able to tank fights like the BWL Drakes. But unfortunately once again, because of the bug, that's not going to be able to happen.

So I implore all of you on the dev team, please for the love of all that is holy and elemental, fix this bug. Right now, both classes have large, gaping holes in their designs due to not being allowed to use their support tools, and even the Paladin changes listed for 1.15.2 which fix far, far more than any other class aren't going to be covering up holes anywhere near as big as this one, let alone for Shamans. Fixing this bug would encourage much more people to want to play Shaman, make Paladin and Shaman much better in all roles of play, and put an end to all the unnecessary annoyances that the bug causes for everybody in groups with both Paladins and Shamans. There's no reason not to fix this by now.

[Suwuxiv]

"it would make Warriors too good with WF + Might + Kings."

To address the fallacy right away:
....

It is not a fallacy. The game wasn't balanced around having WF/Might and Kings potentially all the time. It's as simple as that.

You can't really argue things should be a certain way on the grounds that it is Classic behavior because on Turtle WoW we have cross-faction which isn't a thing on Classic.

If you want these changes, remove cross-faction and then allow people to obtain the buffs just like they do on Classic. Otherwise, I'm afraid the implications of adjusting this are far too great.

[Zesilo]

Would be neat to see this :)

[Camanchaca]

I agree this should be reviewed. The unique cross faction nature of the server implies the need of checking and maybe redesigning the mechanics that are directly impacted by this choice.

Perhaps some buffs may stack, perhaps all could stack and this could be compensated by adjusting other buff sources (world buffs), but it is true that playing a shaman and not being able to use your totems in dungeons suck.

This could also reduce the need of buffing some specs due to lack of performance, and may also imply some nerfs. If you are worried that warrior will be too OP, you can nerf it a little so it remains where it is now for example. For example by nerfing high end warrior weapons.

Cheers to the design team, this job doesn't look easy

[Jamey]

We're aware of this "bug". We've already had many discussions on this in the class channels on Discord as well. In short, retail/classic never had Shamans and Paladins being able to group up and thus it was never balanced around these buffs stacking.

The team will refrain from altering the current behavior until at least all implications of all the new class changes are out. If the team does not see enough improvements through these changes then we might re-open this discussion and do internal tests as to the strength of having these stack.

For now, it will not be altered.

[Tarluk]

"it would make Warriors too good with WF + Might + Kings."

To address the fallacy right away:
....

It is not a fallacy. The game wasn't balanced around having WF/Might and Kings potentially all the time. It's as simple as that.

You can't really argue things should be a certain way on the grounds that it is Classic behavior because on Turtle WoW we have cross-faction which isn't a thing on Classic.

If you want these changes, remove cross-faction and then allow people to obtain the buffs just like they do on Classic. Otherwise, I'm afraid the implications of adjusting this are far too great.

Did you actually read what I said? Sounds like you didn't at all.

[Tarluk]

We're aware of this "bug". We've already had many discussions on this in the class channels on Discord as well. In short, retail/classic never had Shamans and Paladins being able to group up and thus it was never balanced around these buffs stacking.

The team will refrain from altering the current behavior until at least all implications of all the new class changes are out. If the team does not see enough improvements through these changes then we might re-open this discussion and do internal tests as to the strength of having these stack.

For now, it will not be altered.

But the fact of the matter is that you do have Shamans and Paladins able to group up here. You can't just screw over their basic support kit when you have no actual proof that it'd even make anything busted, or that having 4 paladins and 4 shamans buffing everyone would provide significantly more raidwide DPS than just replacing one of those classes with 4 warriors anyway.

All the changes in the world in other areas of the classes aren't going to change the fact that these classes have had and still will have this massive gaping hole in their design due to not being able to use their basic support kit. How are you supposed to properly balance the classes if in one situation (with none of the other class in the group for a dungeon or raid), they're pretty strong, but with both of them in the group, both classes are rendered far worse by each other?

If the changes to paladins and shamans would make them "too strong" in combination fixing the blessings/totems bug (though looking at the changes, that doesn't even seem like it's likely at all), then that sounds like the changes need to perhaps be cut back on, not that the bug should never be fixed.

To put it as politely as I can, I don't understand the logic y'all are running on here.

[Suwuxiv]

I did and edited my post a few times. There's just major implications to it all and your points have no truth. Allowing them to stack would ruin the meta of the game even further than the mess it already is. Warriors would get ~20% DPS gains, Rogues similar in that ballpark. The disparity between Hunter/Ferals and others would be even larger than it is now because they by far don't get such huge benefits as others do.

That aside, it isn't a bug. It's just coded that way. It may be erroneous, but again, Vanilla isn't designed for both buffs to be present in groups with such ease of access. They're designed to stack if you mind control someone of the opposing faction and buff your group.

The only way this can be fairly changed is if there's a cross-faction tax for groups of mixed Horde and Alliance where Might/Kings/Wfury are all nerfed and the only fix to it is stacking them.

[Velite]

Actually this is wrong. They will stack sure if you get them via mind control (which is the only way to get them if there is no cross faction), but the buffs are removed when you pull a boss...

Just like any buffs you get outside a raid. In short, if you get a buff from someone you didn't invite, it will not be present in the boss fight. HOWEVER, if you get a buff from someone and they are in the boss fight with you, it's fair game. It's what they bring to the table. Don't let paladins lack something to bring to the table.

Also we know now that this behavior is INCORRECT for starters. It is a bug. It's bad code, however you want to call it, bugged code. It is not correct. I just want to make that point clear. And something should be done about it.

For those of you who don't know, the Nostalrius team wrote the code for this conflict. And they did it years before classic came out, so they didn't know but they wanted to do something to prevent horde from getting access to paladin buffs via mind control (CHEATING). Rather than disable the buffs when you pull a boss ( which is BLIZZLIKE as that is how it's handled on classic ), they just made them conflict always. Which sure, that worked on Nostalrius, but on turtle wow this needs to be adjusted since the paladins now take a raid slot inside the instance. It's inhibiting valid gameplay.
With the way the system works too, there is no penalty for logging a mage alt to buff Intellect on a raid and logging out like there is on classic. It's unevenly affecting certain classes.

If you had paladins in a raid on classic as horde the buffs would not conflict. There are no conflicts of any kind. Just as Mark of the Wild does not conflict with Kings or Windfury, Blood pact does not conflict with Power Word Fortitude, and WARCHIEFS BLESSING DOES NOT CONFLICT WITH PALADIN BUFFS. WHICH IS NOT INTENDED FOR ALLIANCE PLAYERS TO EVEN HAVE. Yet, they are all allowed by the game to stack.

I will repeat, this code was written by Nostalrius and not for Turtle, and it is negatively impacting gameplay on Turtle.

I will also repeat. We raid with FOURTY players not FOURTY ONE. Getting buffs from players outside is raiding with more than Fourty (40) people. Which is effectively cheating. And it is blizzlike to prevent this.

With the current system, while you may invite 40 players, we raid with 39.3, 38 players effectively, if you mix paladins and shamans too much.

When you invite 40 players, you should get the effectiveness of 40 players. No more, no less. That's all I want with this conflict removed.

[Suwuxiv]

You've no good concept of balance for this game if you want this, simply put. And what people are suggesting in this thread is for the buffs to coexist and stack with each other without a problem. There was no mention of boss only. Thing is, in some instances, the trash is harder than the bosses and frankly even if buffs do fade on a boss pull this still effects balance. In no way whatsoever would I like to see this in game.

That aside, Turtle WoW is not Classic. Turtle WoW is Turtle Wow and it has to strike its own balance to make things work because of all of the customizations we have. One of which just so happens to be cross-faction play.

[Velite]

I wait for what the devs decide then. Not Nostalrius.

[Balake]

I think Blizzard's initial thoughts when designing the classes was to give Shamans and Paladins similar buffs that do the same thing. That's why they both have a mana regen buff, a threat reduction buff, an attack power buff, and an armor buff.

You know how when you invite a 2nd druid to the group, he makes the 1st druid less useful to the raid, since the first druid now only buffs half of them with Mark of the Wild.

I guess it's the same with shamans and paladins, since in the original game they couldn't exist in the same group, they technically count as the same class with a horde and an alliance version so putting both of them in a raid is class stacking. And just like 2 druids make each other less useful, a shaman and a paladin make each other less useful.

This is just a way to look at it from a game design perspective, and there are surely gaps in this explanation like Blessing of Kings and Windfury totem having no counterpart.

[Velite]

I think Blizzard's initial thoughts when designing the classes was to give Shamans and Paladins similar buffs that do the same thing. That's why they both have a mana regen buff, a threat reduction buff, an attack power buff, and an armor buff.

You know how when you invite a 2nd druid to the group, he makes the 1st druid less useful to the raid, since the first druid now only buffs half of them with Mark of the Wild.

I guess it's the same with shamans and paladins, since in the original game they couldn't exist in the same group, they technically count as the same class with a horde and an alliance version so putting both of them in a raid is class stacking. And just like 2 druids make each other less useful, a shaman and a paladin make each other less useful.

This is just a way to look at it from a game design perspective, and there are surely gaps in this explanation like Blessing of Kings and Windfury totem having no counterpart.

I would agree with you if Nostalrius did this for the purposes of game design. But they didn't. They did this to stop horde from cheating. They did this to stop you from getting the buffs as horde the only way possible, via mind control. They were not a cross faction server and didn't make this to compensate for cross faction. This is is why Salvation stacks with shaman buffs which is arguably the strongest combination, as it allows melee dps to get Tranquil air totem without having to totem twist. It stacks, because the Nostalrius devs didn't factor it in since you can only cast Salvation on party members, hence there would be no point to getting it from mind control.

The point you are also missing is that the blessings are the paladin's dps rotation. It is like denying hunters the use of aimed shot, it lowers their dps contribution. But if you have another class instead that isn't being denied it's rotation in this case, they are better to invite.

(Although we know from classic that Mind Control players are technically in your party, hence you can cast salvation on them)

Power word Fortitude stacks with Blood Pact. Your example works with paladins and shamans already since only 1 shaman per group can drop windfury, and paladins can only buff 1 blessing and not the same blessing twice. We're talking a conflict between two classes, not between the same class.

Yes, Shamans and Paladins ultimately serve the same purpose in a raid. One can argue, same as warlocks and balance druids too. Or feral druids and enhancement shamans. But they do so in different ways, this is how they are not Homogenized. To have their buffs conflict is to ultimately treat them as the same class which is Homogenization. We have a half and half approach on Turtle that really benefits warriors and rogues the most, really.

Burning Crusade makes this distinction clear, when both classes are in a group, all of their buffs stack, because they are different classes, not the same class.

If you want to block getting the buffs from mind control, block getting the buffs from mind control (the original purpose), but don't block getting the buffs while you are inside the raid (the turtle wow situation). Do the job right. I am just asking for this to be reassessed given the situation on Turtle, which is not the same situation as Nostalrius. Because right now we have code that was created for Nostalrius on Turtle Wow and it was not designed for Turtle WoW and yet we accept it as gospel.

[Merikkinon]

How about this?

Paladins and Shaman are blocked from group together in dungeons/raids... cause you know, NEVER was a Classic thing and so what if we have X-faction? X-faction has issues. It SHOULD. It's not even close to the WoW developers concept of the game.

(well obviously that is not gonna happen)...

I am sorry it kinda sucks, but I don't wanna see everything wiped one way or or another just 'so cross-faction doesn't hurt things'. Cross-faction is an added capacity, but I don't think it should now define how everything else needs to be adjusted. This the WoW universe just becomes a lame fun-server joke.

Forget that crap.

[Tarluk]

How about this?

Paladins and Shaman are blocked from group together in dungeons/raids... cause you know, NEVER was a Classic thing and so what if we have X-faction? X-faction has issues. It SHOULD. It's not even close to the WoW developers concept of the game.

(well obviously that is not gonna happen)...

I am sorry it kinda sucks, but I don't wanna see everything wiped one way or or another just 'so cross-faction doesn't hurt things'. Cross-faction is an added capacity, but I don't think it should now define how everything else needs to be adjusted. This the WoW universe just becomes a lame fun-server joke.

Forget that crap.

So you go onto a server where cross-realm grouping is listed as one of its main features, and then not only complain about it, but also demand it be taken away from everyone else on the server just because you don't like the idea of it? Not to mention it's completely ignoring the ramifications of A) telling every raid group on the server to go fuck themselves by forcibly splitting them apart and B) telling the Horde to go fuck themselves even harder since they're the minority faction and therefore have way less people to be able to raid and group up with. And on a server as small as this one, if the minority faction isnt able to group up with everyone else, then the minority faction is gonna be left to die very quickly.

Like yeah, the idea of cross-faction isn't gonna resonate with everyone, but the solution's pretty simple: go play on a different server that doesn't do that if you're gonna be this much against the idea.

[Fin]

We're aware of this "bug". We've already had many discussions on this in the class channels on Discord as well. In short, retail/classic never had Shamans and Paladins being able to group up and thus it was never balanced around these buffs stacking.

The team will refrain from altering the current behavior until at least all implications of all the new class changes are out. If the team does not see enough improvements through these changes then we might re-open this discussion and do internal tests as to the strength of having these stack.

For now, it will not be altered.

Answer had already been provided and participants in the discussion had said their opinions. Closing topic to prevent further degradation in discussion.