PVE Warlock Tanking

[Summonjutsu]

Hi, I'm Summonjutsu. Tel'Abims resident warlock tank and below you will find ideas to make it more viable.

Starting off, We have excellent agro gen (barring spell lockouts, more on that later). our AoE threat through hellfire is unmatched but we lack a hard taunt to counter threat wipe taunt mechanics or tank swap mechanics. (Prince in DM:E comes to mind) I had originally thought Shadowburn having a taunt added to it wouldn't affect much in the way of pve or pvp but there was some outcry at the idea. Tying it to curse of weakness also feels bad in case there are raid groups with more than 3 locks. Getting a flat taunt ability also feels like the wrong way to go as I feel it should be talented for in some way if the tree wasn't bloated. Perhaps add to Nether studies a clause "Gives Your shadowburn a 33/66/100% chance to taunt your target for three seconds"

The crit problem. We can get to around 360 defense before core armor kits and give up a lot of our spell damage, basically the same problem any tank has when they get to crit cap at 440. threat gen is terrible. Our problem is that it is impossible for us to reach the crit cap with the limited cloth defense gear we have. A change to the talent "Demonic Aegis" that adds 1/2/3% reduced chance to be critically hit could help with this. The armor buff is able to be dispelled and 3% reduced physical crit should not affect pvp to harshly.

The armor problem. While I can get 31% physical dr with just demon armor, and my blueberry giving me 10% more from Master demonologist, I can get to 41%, You then add in the Soul link calc of 25% and I'm around 50% physical DR but thats about my maximum. There doesn't seem to be a lot of items like The Wraps of the Transmogrified or the Ironweave set. Higher armor lower damage cloth pieces could be helpful here. Adding some higher armor values to a few pieces of the Flarecore set maybe as that seems to be designed with warlock tanking in mind.

Fire immunity and Spell lockout. These are the two big sticking points for evolving this beyond just 5 man dungeons and we'll start with the lockout problem first. LBRS and UBRS I'm able to get around it somewhat by baiting the spell lockout on the health funnel but more than two mobs that can do that is rough with the blueberry juggling between those two, while I'm tanking the one and baiting the lockout. I honestly have no ideas for this, becoming spell lockout immune in pvp is busted even though we have to hardcast most everything meaningful. I'll just keep flipping back and forth between health funnel healing agro and wrathstone searing pain/fire wand agro. When I think of something better than fire wand I'll add it here. (Adding Shadow damage to Wrathstone would allow Corruption and CoE to generate threat during heavy lockout)

For the fire immunity problem, adding immunity pierce to wrathstone through the talent "Improved Stones" would do the trick and punish any destro locks thinking they can get around the immunity without dying. We wouldn't be able to wand them down but searing pain and immo should be enough with an opening soulfire. If immunity pierce is out of the question, maybe add shadow damage agro generation effect as well to the Wrathstone?

Lack of Avoidence stats. I'm not going to lie, this is tough. Even if you squeeze the 1.5 sec searing pains between the bosses 2 second swing timer, you probably are going to get hit anyway. at 339 defense I only have a 7% dodge and a 7% chance to be missed. We can't parry, we can't block. WE do get +20% healing received from Master Demonologist while we have the blueberry out which helps (Druid hots are amazing) or if they are magic damage dealing mobs, the Felpuppy giving us some extra res and cuts down on the damage received. Either way we are a sponge for damage, so prob best we lean into it. Maybe something like priests Blessed recovery talent? Some way to either heal a partial amount of the damage taken over a few seconds or spread it out over a few seconds. (Adding Shadow Damage to Wrathstone would allow going down Affliction for Fel concentration to Drain life instead)

Any feedback, thoughts or suggestions are appreciated.

[marcbelando]

cool ideas, I'd love to try out some stuff for a warlock tank build

[Akarui]

I completely agree. The game is critically lacking tanks. 1-2 hours of waiting in LFT, another 1-2 hours to find FREE tanks from friends and guilds. Queue simulator.
Also, in my opinion, the game really lacks Active tanks. The CC2 update (which I consider complete trash) added another passive punching bag in the Shaman's enh tree

The Demonologist branch always had interesting talents hinting at the Warlock to tolerate some damage. And later they added Metamorphosis.

The last talent in the Demonologist branch would fit perfectly with the Demon form with bonuses to aggro but loss of damage. And the Warlock Demonologist could at least play the role of a tank in dungeons.

I suggest creating a discussion in the Warlock branch and jointly think over the concept. But so that it doesn't spoil the balance and ruin the vanilla vibe, like trashy CC2 did

[Toxo]

Warlocks using demonology or metamorphosis to become more resilient is one of the more unique ideas for tanking in any MMO.

but about this shortage, you need more than that, or pally, druid, shaman.. Even 4 tank specs cannot tackle the sheer volume of demand there is for dps and this isn't because people just pick dps, the problem is that in raiding the demand for dps dwarfs everything else, like that of tanks by at least 6.5 times, or 13 times, if you have around 26~ dps to 4 tanks, or 26~ dps to 2 tanks.

that's why there will always be a shortage of tanks and why an overabundance of Warrior tanks won't solve this problem either, because they will then have nothing to do.. If we translate the 1/1/3 composition for 5 mans to raid compositions, how do you fit 8-9 tanks for every 26~ dps in raids everywhere across the server on pugs or guilds, if 99% of raids only need 2-4 well geared tanks at most and there's only one single fight with 4 horsemen that need 8+ tanks? This idea of "well, just roll a Warrior and be a tank" will create another problem of an overabundance of tanks who past gearing in 5 man, will have nothing else to do as raids could get filled up on tanks in seconds, nothing except for rolling to a dps spec I guess.

[Akarui]

Warlocks using demonology or metamorphosis to become more resilient is one of the more unique ideas for tanking in any MMO.

but about this shortage, you need more than that, or pally, druid, shaman.. Even 4 tank specs cannot tackle the sheer volume of demand there is for dps and this isn't because people just pick dps, the problem is that in raiding the demand for dps dwarfs everything else, like that of tanks by at least 6.5 times, or 13 times, if you have around 26~ dps to 4 tanks, or 26~ dps to 2 tanks.

that's why there will always be a shortage of tanks and why an overabundance of Warrior tanks won't solve this problem either, because they will then have nothing to do.. If we translate the 1/1/3 composition for 5 mans to raid compositions, how do you fit 8-9 tanks for every 26~ dps in raids everywhere across the server on pugs or guilds, if 99% of raids only need 2-4 well geared tanks at most and there's only one single fight with 4 horsemen that need 8+ tanks? This idea of "well, just roll a Warrior and be a tank" will create another problem of an overabundance of tanks who past gearing in 5 man, will have nothing else to do as raids could get filled up on tanks in seconds, nothing except for rolling to a dps spec I guess.

Brainwashing machine works

[Toxo]

Brainwashing machine works

sure, but how well has that been working out so far? also, how many fresh or gearing 60s can afford that?

I've been to a few DM wings recently on alts and these can take almost 2h for dps queue, with east wing being the worst offender. Other dungeons aren't that much better, they take around 1h too.

[Akarui]

Brainwashing machine works

sure, but how well has that been working out so far? also, how many fresh or gearing 60s can afford that?

I've been to a few DM wings recently on alts and these can take almost 2h for dps queue, with east wing being the worst offender. Other dungeons aren't that much better, they take around 1h too.

tried playing as a half-tanking demo lock. didn't tank bosses, only mobs in dungeons 55+. It's terribly boring. And it feels like a senseless, ill-considered nerf compared to the original classic. It lacks soulstone, talent to increase the volume of the sacrificial shield from the void, the void aggro is very weak. And the further you go, the more it's just a reservoir with additional HP to absorb damage.
and it's boring because 90% of the time you just stand there pressing hellfire.
Summoning inferno - well, yes, a cool glass cannon. Mobs in dungeons kill it very quickly, so you have to be careful, especially with overhelming.
Summoning doom - looks epic. In fact, like inferno - dies quickly, you have to be more careful with his AOE.
Enslaving satyrs in dirmaul will be more interesting
Playable. but boring.

And a big load on the healer. To make a tank out of a demonologist, some form of nathrezim is needed, with its bonuses and disadvantages. Like the priest's shadow form, owlbeast.

On the other hand, is it necessary at all?

Too much needs to be done for interesting gameplay and not just pressing one button and annoying the healer.
For example. Let's dream.
For WL to be a tank at least in 5ppl dung - the Nathrezim form gives Demon Agility +15% to dodge, and an additional 5% vampirism from shadow spells. All spells consumes less mana. Fire spells - increased agro by 30%, all instant cast, but all have +5 sec CD and less damage by 30%.
Shadow spells - AoE effect up to 5 targets, but the damage is divided among all targets (for DoTs - shorter duration).
Can absorb a summoned demon, heal and get a + bonus depending on the demon.

Smells like DK Unholy partially.

So maybe yes. A tank from a warlock is a bad idea. There is no suitable spell base

[Toxo]

Brainwashing machine works

sure, but how well has that been working out so far? also, how many fresh or gearing 60s can afford that?

I've been to a few DM wings recently on alts and these can take almost 2h for dps queue, with east wing being the worst offender. Other dungeons aren't that much better, they take around 1h too.

tried playing as a half-tanking demo lock. didn't tank bosses, only mobs in dungeons 55+. It's terribly boring. And it feels like a senseless, ill-considered nerf compared to the original classic. It lacks soulstone, talent to increase the volume of the sacrificial shield from the void, the void aggro is very weak. And the further you go, the more it's just a reservoir with additional HP to absorb damage.
and it's boring because 90% of the time you just stand there pressing hellfire.
Summoning inferno - well, yes, a cool glass cannon. Mobs in dungeons kill it very quickly, so you have to be careful, especially with overhelming.
Summoning doom - looks epic. In fact, like inferno - dies quickly, you have to be more careful with his AOE.
Enslaving satyrs in dirmaul will be more interesting
Playable. but boring.

And a big load on the healer. To make a tank out of a demonologist, some form of nathrezim is needed, with its bonuses and disadvantages. Like the priest's shadow form, owlbeast.

On the other hand, is it necessary at all?

well, if you want to tackle the issue of tank shortages? then yes. these sort of hybrid dps I see as the only way to really tackle the tank shortage in a meaningful way and it's tricky I'll give you that, because on top of the changes, it also requires a change in perspective and people taking on this mantle themselves, to tank through 5 man content as dps. This is a tall order, I know, I expect little to nothing from our fellow players.. ^^ I'm more talking about this idea to think about it and more for the sake of discussion if anything.

Adding more pure tank specs to the server pool I don't think will work, like I said before.. Considering how uncontested their loot is, they'll blaze through those dungeons, then become redundant afterwards, because usually it just so happens that better tanks in full epic sets will be preferred in raids, people who are running for some rare drops, mounts, consumes, gold, etc., or guilds already have more than enough tanks between people who stay in permanent tank roles, as well as some people who can quickly swap to their tank specs and gear whenever needed.


also, as for warlock tanking being boring, I mean, is it anymore boring than heroic strike and sunder armor? :)
to me what you've been describing there sounds a lot more interesting, similar to how the shaman aoe totem threat transfer works.

[Fornow]

Warlock tank is certainly an intriguing idea. Ideally it would be supported by dedicated talents (demonology tree especially). Shaman tank used to be on the meme/enviable side of things but people tried hard to make it work and look where we are now.

[Akos1896]

I like the idea but it's not evident that more classes being able to tank means less LFT wait time in general.
I'd really want a comparison of LFT waiting times before and after CC2 when shaman (really) joined the dungeon tanks.

Regarding your ideas:

The taunt -> I'd make the warlock tank a 'tandem tank'. Would make voidie the default pet for tanking (master demonologist buff is too good). I'd add a proper taunt via voidie. You could keep torment when you wanna raise threat on the pet but it could also have a taunt which redirects the focus to you. But you gotta move voidie inside the brawl, risking cleave and aoe damage on it. Would also require some extra focus on pet movement but this taunt would be unique.

The crit problem: aegis works but it might push non-demo builds too much at PVP. My guess is giving this (or plain +defense) to either master demonologist - voidie or to soul link. Or the aura I describe for the last point.

Armor: I think adding a bunch of cloth tanking items is not realistic. Maybe some tailoring boe items here and there. That's the most realistic option I see, otherwise it would dilute the cloth loot pool for most of the playerbase.

If we really wanna get rid of spell lockout I could imagine a talent/effect which damages you for n% of your HP every time you'd be locked out (and you won't be locked out).
For immunity, your wraithstone idea is awesome.
We could combine these two even. Wraithstone gives the pierce and prevents lockout but every lockout attempt gives some real damage. Might even balance PVP destro to a degree since they are kinda glass cannons anyway.

Avoidance is tough. Adding cloth tanking items dilutes the loot pool, maybe some boe tailoring, again.
What I can also imagine is a righteous fury equivalent. A kind of aura you turn on.
Gives you parry, dodge, maybe even defense based on your stamina or int but with a caveat.
Your spells keep their current threat but get reduced damage.
F.ex. hellfire does 70% damage but the threat stays the same as if it was 100% damage.
This 'aura' could have a CD so people don't just switch it on instantly when an enemy gets melee range and fear fails.

[Akos1896]

Brainwashing machine works

sure, but how well has that been working out so far? also, how many fresh or gearing 60s can afford that?

I've been to a few DM wings recently on alts and these can take almost 2h for dps queue, with east wing being the worst offender. Other dungeons aren't that much better, they take around 1h too.

tried playing as a half-tanking demo lock. didn't tank bosses, only mobs in dungeons 55+. It's terribly boring. And it feels like a senseless, ill-considered nerf compared to the original classic. It lacks soulstone, talent to increase the volume of the sacrificial shield from the void, the void aggro is very weak. And the further you go, the more it's just a reservoir with additional HP to absorb damage.
and it's boring because 90% of the time you just stand there pressing hellfire.
Summoning inferno - well, yes, a cool glass cannon. Mobs in dungeons kill it very quickly, so you have to be careful, especially with overhelming.
Summoning doom - looks epic. In fact, like inferno - dies quickly, you have to be more careful with his AOE.
Enslaving satyrs in dirmaul will be more interesting
Playable. but boring.

And a big load on the healer. To make a tank out of a demonologist, some form of nathrezim is needed, with its bonuses and disadvantages. Like the priest's shadow form, owlbeast.

On the other hand, is it necessary at all?

Too much needs to be done for interesting gameplay and not just pressing one button and annoying the healer.
For example. Let's dream.
For WL to be a tank at least in 5ppl dung - the Nathrezim form gives Demon Agility +15% to dodge, and an additional 5% vampirism from shadow spells. All spells consumes less mana. Fire spells - increased agro by 30%, all instant cast, but all have +5 sec CD and less damage by 30%.
Shadow spells - AoE effect up to 5 targets, but the damage is divided among all targets (for DoTs - shorter duration).
Can absorb a summoned demon, heal and get a + bonus depending on the demon.

Smells like DK Unholy partially.

So maybe yes. A tank from a warlock is a bad idea. There is no suitable spell base

Imo it can be a bit more complex.
Hellfire is really only worth it for 3+ mobs.
If you have the spell pushback prevention, searing pain is basically your 'revenge' with tab.
Death coil is interesting. Heals, prevents damage and super good but only if you have the space to not pull.
Same with aoe fear. It's basically a defensive cd but only if space is cleared.
You can even fear some mobs and recharge life with syphon to help the healer.
What I like in the lock tank concept is the spacial awareness.
Ideally you gotta move the voidie -> F.ex. it picks up one mob it surely survives and the others focus on the mobs around you. Kinda worls like a CC, can take out a mob if done well.
You also have to think about how you clear. If you get space, you enable OP defensives which otherwise grief you (fear).
Shadowburn for threat spike if you cna afford the souls.

Imo it has many interesting things going for it but it's currently less ready than shaman was pre CC2. I doubt a 'warlock Shockwarden' could MT Naxx, no matter how hard he tries.

[Fornow]

How about the warlock redirecting threat to the pet somehow (togglable skill like righteous fury may I)? Means you would hellfire, searing pain, and throw dots but the void walker eats the damage. Also solves the spell lockout/silence problem.


Maybe have a way that some of the damage that the demon takes is transfered to the lock instead (reverse soul link essentially). That gives the healer 2 targets to heal that don't need to be so buff individually.

[Cosmico]

Hi, I'm Summonjutsu. Tel'Abims resident warlock tank and below you will find ideas to make it more viable.

Starting off, We have excellent agro gen (barring spell lockouts, more on that later). our AoE threat through hellfire is unmatched but we lack a hard taunt to counter threat wipe taunt mechanics or tank swap mechanics. (Prince in DM:E comes to mind) I had originally thought Shadowburn having a taunt added to it wouldn't affect much in the way of pve or pvp but there was some outcry at the idea. Tying it to curse of weakness also feels bad in case there are raid groups with more than 3 locks. Getting a flat taunt ability also feels like the wrong way to go as I feel it should be talented for in some way if the tree wasn't bloated. Perhaps add to Nether studies a clause "Gives Your shadowburn a 33/66/100% chance to taunt your target for three seconds"

The crit problem. We can get to around 360 defense before core armor kits and give up a lot of our spell damage, basically the same problem any tank has when they get to crit cap at 440. threat gen is terrible. Our problem is that it is impossible for us to reach the crit cap with the limited cloth defense gear we have. A change to the talent "Demonic Aegis" that adds 1/2/3% reduced chance to be critically hit could help with this. The armor buff is able to be dispelled and 3% reduced physical crit should not affect pvp to harshly.

The armor problem. While I can get 31% physical dr with just demon armor, and my blueberry giving me 10% more from Master demonologist, I can get to 41%, You then add in the Soul link calc of 25% and I'm around 50% physical DR but thats about my maximum. There doesn't seem to be a lot of items like The Wraps of the Transmogrified or the Ironweave set. Higher armor lower damage cloth pieces could be helpful here. Adding some higher armor values to a few pieces of the Flarecore set maybe as that seems to be designed with warlock tanking in mind.

Fire immunity and Spell lockout. These are the two big sticking points for evolving this beyond just 5 man dungeons and we'll start with the lockout problem first. LBRS and UBRS I'm able to get around it somewhat by baiting the spell lockout on the health funnel but more than two mobs that can do that is rough with the blueberry juggling between those two, while I'm tanking the one and baiting the lockout. I honestly have no ideas for this, becoming spell lockout immune in pvp is busted even though we have to hardcast most everything meaningful. I'll just keep flipping back and forth between health funnel healing agro and wrathstone searing pain/fire wand agro. When I think of something better than fire wand I'll add it here. (Adding Shadow damage to Wrathstone would allow Corruption and CoE to generate threat during heavy lockout)

For the fire immunity problem, adding immunity pierce to wrathstone through the talent "Improved Stones" would do the trick and punish any destro locks thinking they can get around the immunity without dying. We wouldn't be able to wand them down but searing pain and immo should be enough with an opening soulfire. If immunity pierce is out of the question, maybe add shadow damage agro generation effect as well to the Wrathstone?

Lack of Avoidence stats. I'm not going to lie, this is tough. Even if you squeeze the 1.5 sec searing pains between the bosses 2 second swing timer, you probably are going to get hit anyway. at 339 defense I only have a 7% dodge and a 7% chance to be missed. We can't parry, we can't block. WE do get +20% healing received from Master Demonologist while we have the blueberry out which helps (Druid hots are amazing) or if they are magic damage dealing mobs, the Felpuppy giving us some extra res and cuts down on the damage received. Either way we are a sponge for damage, so prob best we lean into it. Maybe something like priests Blessed recovery talent? Some way to either heal a partial amount of the damage taken over a few seconds or spread it out over a few seconds. (Adding Shadow Damage to Wrathstone would allow going down Affliction for Fel concentration to Drain life instead)

Any feedback, thoughts or suggestions are appreciated.

Bro your class is not suposed to be tank. You are cloth casters. Good job ruining your fun they will patch the abyssal for sure.

[Akos1896]

There's a reason I like this added diversity in the game (more classes being able to tank, more kinds of DPS joining raids with different skillsets etc).
The server is mostly PVE and PVE endgame is super repetitive.
But the small differences (different tanking comps for the same raids with slightly different approach, different healing prio etc) make things more interesting. It won't be the same stuff over and over again every time you enter the place.
TWOW did a good job with it, Vanilla was about fury prots everywhere most of the time, now we have them, classic prots, bears, palas, even shamans. The more option, the more differences in approach make small variances which keep instances (for me) interesting.

[Akarui]

Bro your class is not suposed to be tank. You are cloth casters. Good job ruining your fun they will patch the abyssal for sure.

Bro.
-20% dmg by armor and demonic armor
-10% dmg and + 20% healing taking with void
also 25% transfered to demon.
Felstone with demo talents is 6% of damage dealt is returned as healing
or Wrathstone +40% threat and less dmg from hellfire
Deathcoil - 2min cd but as a self healing in hard situation not bad
The only one problem. No block, no parry, no taunt. Searing pain (1.5s cast) under attack its 5+sec cast
Are u sure that "not supported at all" ?
For taking dmg ok but for keeping threat - same lame as a shaman