PvP: What's on the Horizon

[Digitalmage]

As others have mentioned, a simple zone-wide debuff will not solve the issue. The lower-geared characters will be even worse off in the end. The solution needs to be expanded. Apply a very high healing, damage and health debuff to all players in a battleground or arena, say to an effect of 78%, name it 'Wartorn'. Then, add a new stat that is only found in PvP armor set pieces, call it whatever, something like 'Vigour'.

Each PvP armor piece (regardless whether it is a rare or epic one) grants you +10 Vigour, which means that with a complete set you get +60 Vigour. Each point of Vigour increases all damage and healing you do in battlegrounds, and your total health by 1.3%, so one PvP armor piece grants you 13% additional health, damage and healing while in a battleground or arena.

This means that with a full PvP armor set the battleground debuff has been eliminated and now you're even. Then, add 10 points of Vigour to all PvP weapon items (main-hand only, so dual wielding classes don't get double the benefit). Then, give the PvP trinket a passive debuff that reduces the duration of all crowd control spells by 35%. Finally, add a full green PvP armor set that is buyable with gold coins so each player is able to start their Battleground and Arena journey with 60 Vigour (the necessary amount to nullify the Battleground & Arena damage debuff) on equal footing.

This means that PvP armour sets will always be the preferred equipment in Battlegrounds, while also retaining an equipment progression as higher ranked PvP pieces will offer you more stats than lower rank PvP pieces without having you lose Vigour points. Raid armor will be the BIS for PvE content, and PvP armor will be the BIS for PvP content.

[Ataika]

its funny how you want to invent new mechanics and parametrs instead of simply fixing overtuned cc2 abilities and talents

[Exaltus]

also, every single one of you knew what you signed up for (rank system wise) when you made an account on a classic server and now you demand shortcuts. why do you want to destroy the thing that you originally came for? if everyone gets everything as a participation trophy then we might as well play some other game

This. Stop making pvp more like retail. Go play that if you dont like this.

[Laysson]

also, every single one of you knew what you signed up for (rank system wise) when you made an account on a classic server and now you demand shortcuts. why do you want to destroy the thing that you originally came for? if everyone gets everything as a participation trophy then we might as well play some other game

This. Stop making pvp more like retail. Go play that if you dont like this.

Care to explain what is Retail PvP ?

[Bjorn88]

its funny how you want to invent new mechanics and parametrs instead of simply fixing overtuned cc2 abilities and talents

It is indeed funny. Jamey popped in on pvp-general the other day and flat out denied CC2 raised the burstiness of classes overall.

I suppose this is the reality one lives in when they only look at dps-sims and not pvp burst.

[Merkoth]

I get the sinking suspicion that not too many people here have played Warcraft 3 or Dota. If you go into BGs with mindset of said games then suddenly none this would bother you as much.

Practically every class is overpowered or overturned in some way. Just play around and find out these strengths and learn to apply them to your advantage.

[Springboards]

Prohibit pre created teams from entering the battlefield,fu

problem is alliance would still be able to get in since there are 3-4x more horde pvpers. All they would need to do is queue at the same time counting down on discord.

Only xfaction BGs would fix it

[Nicko77]

So with these nerfs, under-geared player become a non threat because their already low dps & burst, is even lower.

It also indirectly nerfs classes that rely on RNG burst, while buffing classes that have core strength of endurance, ie. outlasting classes will be hugely buffed.

Soon people will come and cry about why they can't kill X.

The gear changes are solid though. Looking forward to that.

Not geared players will be finally able to gear by doing PVP instead of having to find a big raiding guild and farm raids for a year hoping to get equipped.

[Ataika]

Prohibit pre created teams from entering the battlefield,fu

problem is alliance would still be able to get in since there are 3-4x more horde pvpers. All they would need to do is queue at the same time counting down on discord.

Only xfaction BGs would fix it

get friends and stop whinning about premades

[Kalocsa]

So with these nerfs, under-geared player become a non threat because their already low dps & burst, is even lower.

It also indirectly nerfs classes that rely on RNG burst, while buffing classes that have core strength of endurance, ie. outlasting classes will be hugely buffed.

Soon people will come and cry about why they can't kill X.

The gear changes are solid though. Looking forward to that.

Not geared players will be finally able to gear by doing PVP instead of having to find a big raiding guild and farm raids for a year hoping to get equipped.

what changes from 1.12 exactly? More possibilities? Because in fact nothing changes so far. You can start green geared. And you'll still get exploded until u get r10, then exalted all pvp BGs, and then r14, and without pve, you'll have a very decent gear, truly not viable for every specs for every classes sure, but all the mainstream pvp specs are mostly covered.

You will still have Bobby, the average human male warrior or paladin that comes in BGs with 3K2 hp and a weapon worse than a demonslayer, and pollute bg environment for weeks, and even months, before having decent gear. Not even quoting the fact skill wise he'll still be a litteral shit at the game.

[Eversongwoods]

I am just glad they are doing something with pvp finally. I would like a panda themed patch so we can have the Temple of Kotmogu bg from MoP added. It is definitely the best bg that blizzard ever made.

[Hohohoho]

Battleground only changes? flat % across the entire board??

If those reductions are not proportionnal to the dps \ output (bigger dps = bigger % reduction)
+ same for heal
~ not sure this is will be better than "as is".

"Battleground only" looks doubious. Means you'll have to have a completely different talent set and gear set for battlegrounds - to keep some talent variations playable - you'll have to compensate with a dedicated gear or just stop playing what you played and how you played it.


The reader might concider the fact that the %-s can be done such that gear stays revelant WHILE improving the situation at the same time (to a degree atleast).


Another dumb thing that would do less harm that flat % would be - health* increase. For everyone.
Stupid health increase (would require some PVE compensation if made general).

Those classes with a burst that struggle to sustain would suffer a little (but aren't those the problem?) and the classes that can sustain a more moderate dps would be upped a bit. Should roughly, keep the variety of builds ~high.

*did lack [th] at the end ><

[Surtugal]

So with these nerfs, under-geared player become a non threat because their already low dps & burst, is even lower.

It also indirectly nerfs classes that rely on RNG burst, while buffing classes that have core strength of endurance, ie. outlasting classes will be hugely buffed.

Soon people will come and cry about why they can't kill X.

The gear changes are solid though. Looking forward to that.

Not geared players will be finally able to gear by doing PVP instead of having to find a big raiding guild and farm raids for a year hoping to get equipped.

The whole concept of gearing in set-up pvp is inherently bad for any form of balance. Wow PvP ist just a gimmick - to add more flavour to the game - not the focus.
The issue will never be fixed

[Ragetto]

The whole concept of gearing in set-up pvp is inherently bad for any form of balance. Wow PvP ist just a gimmick - to add more flavour to the game - not the focus.

Gearing up is actually a great way to learn your class without relying purely on raw power - it’s excellent for PvP.

PvP isn’t the focus at all on Twow of course (the devs being PvE/RP boyz), but the PvP gameplay in WoW is amazing, and it’d be a waste to limit it to repetitive fights against scripted content.

Starting in TBC, any PvP-focused player could get solid gear and compete on equal footing.

[Zulnam]

can we get a sneak peak into the new BG? at least it's location lore-wise and the factions participating?

[Purecek]

can we get a sneak peak into the new BG? at least it's location lore-wise and the factions participating?

Tbh, azshara crater would be cool and made sense, since turtle was completing things blizzard never finished.

[Breezy]

can we get a sneak peak into the new BG? at least it's location lore-wise and the factions participating?

I'm hoping it's styled similar to ab without pve mechanics similar to sunnyglade or av. What would you like to see?


Any hope that one day we could see entirely new bg modes like oddball from Halo?

[Surtugal]

The whole concept of gearing in set-up pvp is inherently bad for any form of balance. Wow PvP ist just a gimmick - to add more flavour to the game - not the focus.

Gearing up is actually a great way to learn your class without relying purely on raw power - it’s excellent for PvP.

PvP isn’t the focus at all on Twow of course (the devs being PvE/RP boyz), but the PvP gameplay in WoW is amazing, and it’d be a waste to limit it to repetitive fights against scripted content.

Starting in TBC, any PvP-focused player could get solid gear and compete on equal footing.

I disagree.
A gear difference prior to a match creates a raw power imbalance. Pretty much every competitive PvP game match (f.e. LoL, CS, Fortnite,…) starts from scratch. It rewards individual skill rather than time commitment. WoW is different and I respect that. Nevertheless, I think this whole debate about PvP balance is pretty pointless as long as you don't put together PvP matches according to sth like gear score rather than level. Your new char gets blasted by a BiS char regardless of the skill difference.

[Cratag]

THANK YOU

[S4rs]

GJ <3

[Zvyrhol]

These are great news!

However I see 3 problems:

• Where is promised Sunnyglade Valley revamp??? What's the point of adding new battleground if one existing is in very bad state?

• With burst being nerfed, Rogues will likely become weaker in PvP. I don't play this class but this change directly kills one playstyle where Rogue could kill anyone who stays away from their friends with a single combo. I think Rogue should be buffed to compensate this PvP change.

• This doesn't solve WPvP problem. Burst will remain there.

[Matches]

I don't post here, but right now sufficiently emo to want to post something.

PvP is totally, utterly and completely fucked up.

You are either an uber-god killing machine terminator, or you are dog meat.

No middle ground.

As a tank, I'm dog meat. *Anything* I run into, except healer priest, wipes me out.

Shaman do 2k damage in the first 100 fucking MILLISECONDS.

The number of crits coming now also ridiculous.

Druids roots - you escape - roots again - escape again - roots - die.

Warlock - to come with 30 yards means exhaustion, so many dots you die when running, and there's *no way* you can actually engage.

Rogues - don't even fucking *talk* to me about rogues. Sap, kidney shot, stun, crits coming out the ass, blind, vanish, etc. It's a fucking *joke*. Meet a rogue means you cannot move, at all, and then you die.

AV -> spawn, three minutes crossing map, meet uber god killing machine, die in 5 seconds max. Wait 10, 20 seconds to respawn. Cross map for more minutes, ah but sneaky rogue hunting on route from spawn. You can't see him, you know of him when you're sapped, then you die. 10, 20 seconds respawn. Repeat crossing map. Meet Warlock. Instant exhaustion, you're now so slow he has time for the full set of dots. Then death coil and now you're wandering around randomly. Die. 10, 20 seconds respawn. Repeat crossing map. Meet Shaman. Instant 2k+ damage from spells, even fucking Moonfire now doing 600+ on crit and you see a lot of crits. Dismount, charge, earthbind. Look for totem, need to take it out. More spells, more moonfire, finally maybe you get a hit or two, then you die because health all gone. 10, 20 seconds repsawn. Repeat crossing map. AD FUCKING NAUSEAM.

INSTANT DEATH IS NOT A GOOD GAME MECHANIC.

The ongoing power creep for damage has fucked up PvP.

PvP was fucked anyway, because it seems to me WoW was balanced for players to fight mobs; you can't just swaps mobs out and replace them with players. Players are not mobs.

A while back I suggested that all stun/slow/sap/etc effects should not work against players.

Also suggested PvP damage is reduced by 50%.

The first I think is sound. The second originally was a way to compensate for mobs not being players, but now it's compensating - in the wrong way - for power creep. The real solution to power creep is *not* to have it. The only power creep we should see is ongoing *nerfing*, to make the game more challenging. This is vanilla, not retail. If I wanted a walkover, Blizzard already offer it.

[Kalocsa]

its funny how you want to invent new mechanics and parametrs instead of simply fixing overtuned cc2 abilities and talents

It is indeed funny. Jamey popped in on pvp-general the other day and flat out denied CC2 raised the burstiness of classes overall.

I suppose this is the reality one lives in when they only look at dps-sims and not pvp burst.

All classes dps buffed, All tier sets buffed and minmaxed. How it is possible to be in such denial level?

[Nicko77]

So with these nerfs, under-geared player become a non threat because their already low dps & burst, is even lower.

It also indirectly nerfs classes that rely on RNG burst, while buffing classes that have core strength of endurance, ie. outlasting classes will be hugely buffed.

Soon people will come and cry about why they can't kill X.

The gear changes are solid though. Looking forward to that.

Not geared players will be finally able to gear by doing PVP instead of having to find a big raiding guild and farm raids for a year hoping to get equipped.

The whole concept of gearing in set-up pvp is inherently bad for any form of balance. Wow PvP ist just a gimmick - to add more flavour to the game - not the focus.
The issue will never be fixed

It seems to me that you are one of those that raid regularly and just want to keep the advantage on the others that don't raid.
PVP and PVE are two different activities and it's only fair that people can choose what's the best for them,I don't want to raid because I don't have time but I like this server and I want to stick around and have something to do and I like do some BG during the day when I can.
Right now people like me could only hope for a new classic + server to open and have a proper PVP gear progression,thanks to these changes we can look forward to keep playing on TWOW.
If this somewhat goes against your power trip of stomping people easily in BG the solution for you is to just stick to raids because this balancement will make PVP more difficult.

[Bugranger]

• Players who are standing in spots that we deem safespots (as described by our rules) will now receive a Damage over Time debuff that will last as long as they are in such a position. These positions will be continuously updated by the team.

This sounds cool, but I would like to add that safe spots can be used to reset the pursuer and this makes the game really fun and requires skill from players

But at the same time, abusing them significantly spoils the game for players who are not yet strong in PvP. It would be great if the debuff did not punish the first case and was more severe for the second, for example, I would suggest that visiting a safe spot applies a debuff that stacks. I think this is a reasonable compromise, but it is up to you to decide.

[Forumdweller]

It's an mmorpg. Your character has less status than characters that have more time put into them.

All you would achieve is destroying the game integrity and punish people who like to play both sides of the game.

[Mcpewpew]

Reduces incoming Physical Damage by x%.
Reduces incoming Magical Damage by x%.
Reduces incoming Healing by x%.
Reduces incoming Shields by x%.

So this is a bigger nerf to classes that can do more of these things. Warriors for instance are only affected by the physical damage nerf, Priests are hit by the other *three*

[Adwel]

People really need to understand something — especially in Battlegrounds like Warsong Gulch: this isn't a deathmatch.
These games have objectives, and PvP balance should reflect that — not revolve around endless 1v1s in midfield zug-zug land.

The real issue right now is the dominance of shamans.
It’s not uncommon to see 4–6 shamans per game, and they bring way too much utility. Sure, Alliance has ret paladins — but paladins can’t purge. That matters a lot.

For example: a flag carrier using FAP + boots can easily escape a paladin, (and even with simply trinket & run, for my fellow americans against consumes in Bgs).
Against a shaman, though? Way tougher. Purge removes key buffs and makes escaping nearly impossible.
Alliance relies on priests for purge, but good luck with that:

They get hard-countered by Undead (Fear Ward + Will of the Forsaken + Tremor totems)

And any buff they throw up gets stripped immediately by some random shaman


You gave Horde fearward, wich was the only thing alliance had.
The result? PvP is clearly unbalanced.
Just look at Horde pug vs Alliance pug win rates — it tells the story.

Reduces incoming Physical Damage by x%.
Reduces incoming Magical Damage by x%.
Reduces incoming Healing by x%.
Reduces incoming Shields by x%.

This won't change that.

So once again, here are some small but meaningful suggestions to help improve balance:
This are priorities, but there are more in my initial post.

Add a small cooldown to Shaman's Purge – it’s too spammable and too impactful (like 6 seconds)

Rework the Undead racial – make it prevent fear, not remove it (or revert the fearward change, but both is madness)

Restrict Elemental Shamans from picking deep tank talents – pick a role, not both; Atm the biggest damage of the game in PvP can tank 2-3 melee on him
→ Another idea about this — make T3 spell shaman leather or cloth — If you want tank shamans & tanky shamheal but nerf elem shaman, why not. Enha sham gonna still be a problem, but they're kitable atleast.

Another idea is x faction bgs. I have no opinion on this, but anyway x faction or not I'd suggest the same points.

Ty!

[boxcar221]

I disapprove the zone-based DR.


There's literally an option of making pvp gear unique, adressing the class' weaknesses via on-use effects and whatnot. maybe X% vampirism as a full set bonus.
resistance only reducing damage flat in pvp situation (without "miss"), just like there is no use of +def or +wep skill in pvp.

or nerf all dmg and all dps stats on all the gear? there are fucking plenty of options.
and here we are reading about the dumbest retail-like crippled mechanics that wont fix anything and just get people mad

[Feetlover444]

Reduces incoming Physical Damage by x%.
Reduces incoming Magical Damage by x%.
Reduces incoming Healing by x%.
Reduces incoming Shields by x%.

So this is a bigger nerf to classes that can do more of these things. Warriors for instance are only affected by the physical damage nerf, Priests are hit by the other *three*

So what? Warrior is ass at pvp they need the boost the're only affected by one because the only thing warrior can do is facetank and do melee damage.

[Kalocsa]

Reduces incoming Physical Damage by x%.
Reduces incoming Magical Damage by x%.
Reduces incoming Healing by x%.
Reduces incoming Shields by x%.

So this is a bigger nerf to classes that can do more of these things. Warriors for instance are only affected by the physical damage nerf, Priests are hit by the other *three*

So what? Warrior is ass at pvp they need the boost the're only affected by one because the only thing warrior can do is facetank and do melee damage.

It just reminds me a pvp video about a certain expansion; where rogues just oneshot everything in open world pvp, meanwhile in battlegrounds, the things are just "ok tier".

This is basically completely out of the vanilla and the vanilla+ spirit, basically these changes are not vanilla+, they are retail-.

All changes are terrifying, and absurd. Making the uniqueness of vanilla gaming pointless. With no enjoyment anymore. the Warsong jumps are specifics to vanilla and u just want to obliterate it because u have no real knowledge about your "safespots", listening to the crybabies that hold tickets faster than they are thinking.

Basically, since 2018 i played this server, and not a single player safespotted. Safespotting is getting out of the map, corner map, undermap, by using very specific glitches and wallclimbs to get out of where the gamers are.

On the pvp discord channel, many times, videos were sent to illustrate as example, what is real safespot.

Not admitting simple jumps, and even, noggenfogger/slowfall jumps are just skill wise the way to play the pvp of vanilla, is an absolute mistake. And by listening noobs that complain because they just want some casual and stupid fights, you are just lowering the skill and the level of gameplay.

Not even relating the fact that most of your GMs that are supposedly in charge of the PVP tickets are not real pvpers at all. And might have a very limited knowledge, and vision of what is the real vanilla PVP. I proposed myself years ago about providing my knowledge and my vision to the devs when u were hiring some people in your staff team. You never answered me, whatever.

The only cool thing you decided to make is the 2V2 rated arena. Which is an idea and a suggestion from Tex.
Which is basically a high rated arena gamer that will prolly hit the rank 1 or so.

Now here is a little video. Made by Traque, an old beloved mate. And most of the players you'll see in the video are basically vanilla pvp enjoyers, and real veterans of warsong premades.
https://youtu.be/1Q8ALZMwHFs?si=l24paiIjCVM9YFfu

Your changes are basically made to lower the essence and the skill of warsong gulch (which is already super low, let's be honest) . Meanwhile, you are willing to bring a totally competitive scene of new elitists gamers with these 2V2 rated arena.

These two propositions contradict each other. Simply.

Not mentioning the fact, arenas are meta-wise a total different vision brought by expansions, providing new mechanics, with very deep changes to the core of the game to make it work.

Are you sure of your choice? Turtle WoW Developers? Or will you at least read my words and make something, at some point appropriated to a bright vanilla+ you are willing to make? The cards are on your hands. You have the choice.

Not being harsh to everything you made in this server, lore-wise, and pve wise, you did a lot of great things. Now it's time to not fuck up, PVP-Wise. It's not too late to turn back.

[amanagor]

Reduces incoming Physical Damage by x%.
Reduces incoming Magical Damage by x%.
Reduces incoming Healing by x%.
Reduces incoming Shields by x%.

So this is a bigger nerf to classes that can do more of these things. Warriors for instance are only affected by the physical damage nerf, Priests are hit by the other *three*

So what? Warrior is ass at pvp they need the boost the're only affected by one because the only thing warrior can do is facetank and do melee damage.

It just reminds me a pvp video about a certain expansion; where rogues just oneshot everything in open world pvp, meanwhile in battlegrounds, the things are just "ok tier".

This is basically completely out of the vanilla and the vanilla+ spirit, basically these changes are not vanilla+, they are retail-.

All changes are terrifying, and absurd. Making the uniqueness of vanilla gaming pointless. With no enjoyment anymore. the Warsong jumps are specifics to vanilla and u just want to obliterate it because u have no real knowledge about your "safespots", listening to the crybabies that hold tickets faster than they are thinking.

Basically, since 2018 i played this server, and not a single player safespotted. Safespotting is getting out of the map, corner map, undermap, by using very specific glitches and wallclimbs to get out of where the gamers are.

On the pvp discord channel, many times, videos were sent to illustrate as example, what is real safespot.

Not admitting simple jumps, and even, noggenfogger/slowfall jumps are just skill wise the way to play the pvp of vanilla, is an absolute mistake. And by listening noobs that complain because they just want some casual and stupid fights, you are just lowering the skill and the level of gameplay.

Not even relating the fact that most of your GMs that are supposedly in charge of the PVP tickets are not real pvpers at all. And might have a very limited knowledge, and vision of what is the real vanilla PVP. I proposed myself years ago about providing my knowledge and my vision to the devs when u were hiring some people in your staff team. You never answered me, whatever.

The only cool thing you decided to make is the 2V2 rated arena. Which is an idea and a suggestion from Tex.
Which is basically a high rated arena gamer that will prolly hit the rank 1 or so.

Now here is a little video. Made by Traque, an old beloved mate. And most of the players you'll see in the video are basically vanilla pvp enjoyers, and real veterans of warsong premades.
https://youtu.be/1Q8ALZMwHFs?si=l24paiIjCVM9YFfu

Your changes are basically made to lower the essence and the skill of warsong gulch (which is already super low, let's be honest) . Meanwhile, you are willing to bring a totally competitive scene of new elitists gamers with these 2V2 rated arena.

These two propositions contradict each other. Simply.

Not mentioning the fact, arenas are meta-wise a total different vision brought by expansions, providing new mechanics, with very deep changes to the core of the game to make it work.

Are you sure of your choice? Turtle WoW Developers? Or will you at least read my words and make something, at some point appropriated to a bright vanilla+ you are willing to make? The cards are on your hands. You have the choice.

Not being harsh to everything you made in this server, lore-wise, and pve wise, you did a lot of great things. Now it's time to not fuck up, PVP-Wise. It's not too late to turn back.

Nice of you to not mention the obvious and most egrigious flaws this server currently has with pvp. Extremly bursty as a result of power creep from gear and ridiculous pve oriented class changes. Making arcane missiles viable in pvp is pure heresy. The pvp scene on this server has no hope of being even somewhat playable if class changes are kept in bgs and gear restrictions are not implemented il bgs. Vanilla class balance is at its besr arguably around bwl patch where a bis warsong premade would use everysingle class, for both factions. Why not limit gear in bgs to gear obtained up to bwl, instead of these random across the board dmg nerfs that will likely cause more issues than they will solve.

[Adwel]

https://youtu.be/1Q8ALZMwHFs?si=l24paiIjCVM9YFfu

This edit is sick!


I agree with Kalocsa — vanilla PvP was something special. It had its own beauty, its own rhythm, and you’re slowly dismantling that, step by step.
Please, listen to the veterans.

I don’t want to tear down what you’ve built — I actually enjoy the PvE side. But what’s happening to PvP just doesn’t make sense.
It doesn’t have to be this way. There’s still time to fix it.

[Flexdraw]

Yeah. The obvious solution to the problems caused by CC2 is to let us cheat with the flag in Warsong Gulch and ban any gear above BWL from BGs. No class balancing necessary. %reduc is a great start!

It's not too late to make pvp great again! Just destroy it!

[Likedanaimt]

I think we can try to lower the requirement of R14 weapons to R13