A Rogue PVE (DPS) Viability Analysis

[Finpin]

Hello everyone,

while this topic has been up for a while (yes Rogue are STILL in a very tough spot and would need some love) i want to highlight some issues Rogues currently have while giving feedback on the "buffs" to assassination tree from latest patch.

First and foremost: I feel that Rogues - while often underestimated - are a great and fun PVE class (I focus on dps rogue for now). They have different fun and also challenging rotations which vary from encounter to encounter.
Lore-wise I understand Rogues to be more of a melee glasscannon - leather armor, mitigation, high damage - high risk through dying easily when getting threat (no worries youll prob never draw threat under current circumstances).

The class varienty of Rogues in more or less limited. While turtle wow introduced changes to the Sub-tree giving rogues the possibility to be a supportive class, both other speccs (combat and assassination) are purely focused on damage output - DPS. As i didn't dive into Sub-rogue that much i can't say too much about its viability and usability and therefore want to focus on both other specs Combat and Assassination - the presumably most used specs for Rogues.

Around 90+% of Rogues players play Combat Spec, since its the (supposedly) most straight forward DPS spec. Rotations are more simple, you rely much on Blade Flurry and Adrenaline Rush to pump out damage for a short period of time. High weapon skill & hitchance help to put out a rather constant amount of damage - which is in current state rather mediocre dps IF you are not BiS'd out to the maximum. Logs are proving this over and over.
Yes - there are some outliers, but if you look at a broader distribution its clear rogues are nowhere near the top dps classes (single target OR aoe)

This might raise the question: SHOULD they actually be around top dps in PVE (as they were in vanilla back in the day) ?
If you ask me, they definitely should be around the upper end. Not only because i'd like to see them there but more simply because of of class design and lore. A lack of utility and variation should in my opinion go with a higher niche damage output. Rogue dont have raid buffs (dps rogues), rogues dont do massive aoe, rogues cant tank, rogues cant heal, rogues are not used for special mob mechanics in raids (apart from the lame example of supression room).

What can they do tho according to their first two skill trees?? Right, they can do DPS!
Unfortunately they are very bad at it right now though and therefore often seen as not very useful (e.g. "lets just take another warrior instead")

So Combat Rogues right now are pretty much just "meh". They are OK but not very strong in particular - every warrior (although i dont like to make comparisons to overclocked classes) does more damage while having more utility/variety (TANK, Single-target DPS, AOE DPS)

How about Assassination?

I liked that turtle wow devs tried to come up with some buffs for the assassination tree. Since then i actually thoroughly tried and tested the specc in different variations to compare possible damage output to standard-combat rogues and also to just find out if the adjustments bring rogues to another level in terms of DPS.

Long story short: Assassination does some decent damage right now and potentially more than combat spec.
Poison proc chances can be held at a high % and you can proc instant poison a lot which become a big part of your dps.
....................BUT........................... and here is the big BUT...........................
there are 2 big issues i noticed while raiding for a while using Assassination spec.
1. The specc needs a lot of setup before you can get to your full damage output potential.
You need to have S&D and Envenom up, means you need to do 2 finishers before you do any damage at all.
This is not too bad since it makes the rotation simply more challening, you need to plan out more how you engage fights, especially quick ones. But i often find myself having S&D + Env up when the boss is on 70% already (Backstab/Sinister strike into 1 cp s&d - same for envenom)
You might imagine how it is with Trash packs. you basically use one mob to acivate each since they just die to quick.
While i feel this is generally OK since its just a more challenging approach - the damage output you get still simply does not compensate for the setup and "planning" you need. You basically have to work much harder to be on par with a shitty geared warrior or a melee hunter with similar gear - Im talking Single target dps right here.

2. The second issue i have and this is the MUCH BIGGER one is Poison-Resistance of mobs and Bosses.
So as mentioned you have to work a lot harder to be on par in dps BUT now resistances come into play. While other melee classes do physical damage which always works, assassination rogues do 40% nature magic damage.
There are SO MANY bosses and Mobs that are simply immune to poisons which completely negates all the efforts you took to be on par in dps. ALL Elementals and other partly magic immune creatures/bosses (e.g. emperors, 50% of mc bosses) will just eat your poisons for lunch and be not affected.
Now some might say "Hey just use corrosive poison, its physical damage and will compensate" but this is simply not true.
Poison rogues kinda work because they proc so much (instant poison). Using corrosive poison you will stack to 5 and thats it. from that point on the poison ticks for a little damage for 12 seconds and all your procs (i have a proc chance of 65%, with totem from broodlord im at 95%) simply do nothing.
I am still filling the list of creatures and bosses where poisons are ineffective and the list gets bigger and bigger which gives poison rogues a really hard time.

This is my current feedback on DPS Rogues and primarily on the "new" Assassination rogue specc.
While i like the try from twow devs to adjust and make them more viable - IT IS SIMPLY NOT ENOUGH!

If you have more detailed questions on this, im happy to elaborate. I have done a lot of testing in terms of numbers etc. Though I might have missed stuff in here so feel free to give your input/question.

Happy over every input, thanks for reading

AND to the devs: PLEASE make rogues finally more viable so they are not the laughing stock of DPS classes anymore. They are a meme at this point which is sad cause the class is actually so much fun in PVE aswell.

Cheers

[ValiantBV]

As a player who plays mostly Subtlety PvE since forever, I can safely say Subtlety is the biggest looser atm. Subtlety PvE was always the worse PvE class in sustained damage output but was great for levelling (doing quests as stealth missions), had the highest burst which was great in Dungeon Groups and provided Sap and CC which was fun and different to play.

The new changes removed 10% attack power talent, removed Premeditation (+2 combo points before combat starts, removed +10% damage talent from Assassination when target is stunned by kidney and cheap shot skills). But maybe the worse is making Haemorrhage totally unplayable by making it cost 3 talents for the same 1 talent skill and making you go deep into Subtlety which is worse than a meme spec:
- one of the weakest rogue specs Haemorrhage Rogue is even worse now and less viable
- Seal Fate + Haemorrhage is impossible now which was also a build before - as 30 energy Haemorrhage can be used to spam attacks to proc Seal Fate for more Combo Points

Adding to that your comments I see very little positive and a lot of unfortunate changes that nurfed Rogues into the ground unless you play Combat. Which I dont care for.

I like Assassination but making it solely the poison spec feels a bit forced. Maybe add an alternative play style for it (Combat is Sinister Strike, Subtlety can be Haemorrhage, maybe make it viable for Assassination to use Backstab?). Plus the mob resistance issue you mentioned would not be as bad if you had an alternative. Now you basically cant take Seal Fate unless you go poison rogue which is kind of lame.

[Gantulga]

Yeah it's big poop all around and the devs don't seem to care. More than not caring, they went out of their way to make things worse.

The message is clear; the rogue class is not welcome on this server.

[Valari]

My partner plays rogue as when we were joining the game, Rogue Tank was advertised as a possibility through the Agitation Poison. So, he chose rogue both for that it was his first class back in OG Classic, and that he could still tank for me. He made this choice over a warrior, which sadly seems to have been the better choice long term both for damage and keeping agro from me (a holy priest). Even a singular smite is able to pull agro from him, even with agitation poison, a ten second head start, and both of us being well geared (he is AQ40 compatible, I am AQ40/Naxx compatible).

Rogue needs upgrades - especially to the currently nerfed Rogue Tank build if they are not going to be upper end damage dealers. An AOE would let them stack threat with their agitation poison without losing all their combo points (lost when having to change single target) and having to wait for energy to regain.

I feel energy regeneration is one of the biggest changes needed to boost rogue in DPS (overall) as well as general enjoyment of gameplay. Having played rogue as well from Vanilla - Cata (swapped main in MOP to Warlock because green fire), it can be boring to just wait for energy to come back. You never want to be bored while playing your main.

[Gantulga]

My partner plays rogue as when we were joining the game, Rogue Tank was advertised as a possibility through the Agitation Poison. So, he chose rogue both for that it was his first class back in OG Classic, and that he could still tank for me. He made this choice over a warrior, which sadly seems to have been the better choice long term both for damage and keeping agro from me (a holy priest). Even a singular smite is able to pull agro from him, even with agitation poison, a ten second head start, and both of us being well geared (he is AQ40 compatible, I am AQ40/Naxx compatible).

Rogue needs upgrades - especially to the currently nerfed Rogue Tank build if they are not going to be upper end damage dealers. An AOE would let them stack threat with their agitation poison without losing all their combo points (lost when having to change single target) and having to wait for energy to regain.

I feel energy regeneration is one of the biggest changes needed to boost rogue in DPS (overall) as well as general enjoyment of gameplay. Having played rogue as well from Vanilla - Cata (swapped main in MOP to Warlock because green fire), it can be boring to just wait for energy to come back. You never want to be bored while playing your main.

Rogue tank was gutted intently a long time ago. It used to be a super niche build that only worked on a handful of bosses but apparently even that was too much for our devs. They also decided to randomly add poison immunities just because so even tanking some 5 man dungeons became impossible.
I've spent months farming and raiding for all that avoidance gear so that I could tank and now it's just rotting in the bank.

Do not expect your time being respected on this server unless you play one of the favored classes.

[Sagabal]

I was pleasantly surprised to see that Envenom amplified the cast delay of mind-numbing poison and the slow from crippling poison. With that in mind, I wouldn't mind seeing the Assassination spec focus on utility over personal DPS similar to Sub's current direction, giving poisons bonus effects and ignoring poison immunity and so on. That would however probably not be conducive to the playstyle currently developed with buff juggling, which probably just needs a buff to Vigor to be workable. The other possibility is that it gets enough buffs until it's a viable pure DPS spec, and that would just mean that people who enjoy Combat may need to give up the playstyle they love to stay competitive, or would necessitate a change in direction for Combat with the same issue.

Rogue's always had a lot of unique issues as a class from their lack of utility/buffs/debuffs in a raid setting as well as their inflexibility in talent specialization, considering all their best talents are deep Combat. I'm not surprised that there's a lack of clarity of direction, it's not an easy decision on where to take the class. All of the suggestions they seem to get just seem to be in the vein of "Just make Assassination/Subtlety the good DPS spec!" so it's not like there's a lot of great feedback either.

Considering rogue tank, it could be another way of giving the class a new playstyle and direction, although considering last time it was in the game here I'm not sure how it could be reimplemented outside of something similar to how SoD did things, and I'm not sure how I feel about that implementation. I like the idea but it would need way more fleshing out in terms of not only what niche it would fill but how it would even work.

[Akos1896]

I agree. In case of a rogue tank, the game would need to give a flavor justification to why a leather guy's physical damage reduction (no shield) is comparable to full plate, shield-wearing warriors and giant bears. Would be a stretch.

[killend]

The biggest problem now is the ability to cause damage, whether it's combat talent or assassination talent, especially for dagger weapons. Thieves have almost lost their original flavor, and no one in the K40 team has chosen to use poison talent. This is a major problem with this talent. The sharp talent is even more sensational, and the poor team gain is almost non-existent. From a PVP perspective, it is completely inferior to the original version of the talent. Perhaps the design team does not want this profession to exist, so please delete it directly.

[Finpin]

Never really understood what it is with Tank Rogue. Yeah yeah okay a bit fun, mitigation, do something unexpected. But im always thinking about classes from a design and lore perspective (which is the only reasonable perspective looking at a video game if you ask me).
Why should rogues tank from that perspective in the first place?? makes no sense at all. It just shows the trouble of giving rogues their niche back "oh oh what are they actually good at, i dont know, lets try tanking"
go rogue tank to be able to tank 2 bosses in naxx and for the rest youre useless? doesnt sound like good design to me, so im kinda happy thats not really a thing.

Work on rogues as they are intended to work: DPS - Poisons - Distraction/Surprise - Glasscannony/HighRisk-HighReward

[Gantulga]

Never really understood what it is with Tank Rogue. Yeah yeah okay a bit fun, mitigation, do something unexpected. But im always thinking about classes from a design and lore perspective (which is the only reasonable perspective looking at a video game if you ask me).
Why should rogues tank from that perspective in the first place?? makes no sense at all. It just shows the trouble of giving rogues their niche back "oh oh what are they actually good at, i dont know, lets try tanking"
go rogue tank to be able to tank 2 bosses in naxx and for the rest youre useless? doesnt sound like good design to me, so im kinda happy thats not really a thing.

Work on rogues as they are intended to work: DPS - Poisons - Distraction/Surprise - Glasscannony/HighRisk-HighReward

Why are shamans tanking?

[Frantsel]

Can anyone tell me if the poisondmg effected by AP?

[Mitzter]

Rogues are only good for lockpicking.

[Laysson]

Can anyone tell me if the poisondmg effected by AP?

Yes.

[Laysson]

I feel energy regeneration is one of the biggest changes needed to boost rogue in DPS (overall) as well as general enjoyment of gameplay. Having played rogue as well from Vanilla - Cata (swapped main in MOP to Warlock because green fire), it can be boring to just wait for energy to come back. You never want to be bored while playing your main.

This is exactly what is refraining me to level up a Rogue, waiting for that energy tick is so damn boring.

I wish they added something like Combat Potency talent, but baseline, so every spec could benefit from it without the need of a tier set.

[Sagabal]

I feel energy regeneration is one of the biggest changes needed to boost rogue in DPS (overall) as well as general enjoyment of gameplay. Having played rogue as well from Vanilla - Cata (swapped main in MOP to Warlock because green fire), it can be boring to just wait for energy to come back. You never want to be bored while playing your main.

This is exactly what is refraining me to level up a Rogue, waiting for that energy tick is so damn boring.

I wish they added something like Combat Potency talent, but baseline, so every spec could benefit from it without the need of a tier set.

It does feel like part of the reason of darkmantle 4-set being used so much for so long, outside of it just being so broken good, is that it lets you actually press buttons more often lol

[Laysson]

I feel energy regeneration is one of the biggest changes needed to boost rogue in DPS (overall) as well as general enjoyment of gameplay. Having played rogue as well from Vanilla - Cata (swapped main in MOP to Warlock because green fire), it can be boring to just wait for energy to come back. You never want to be bored while playing your main.

This is exactly what is refraining me to level up a Rogue, waiting for that energy tick is so damn boring.

I wish they added something like Combat Potency talent, but baseline, so every spec could benefit from it without the need of a tier set.

It does feel like part of the reason of darkmantle 4-set being used so much for so long, outside of it just being so broken good, is that it lets you actually press buttons more often lol

Yeah, especially that I'm the kind of player that like to press button a lot :D

[Gantulga]

Warriors having an infinite resource bar and always being at the top of the meters is fine. Rogue having some sort of energy regen is a red flag though.

[Aulisia]

We have thistle tea :P

[Devildog]

We have thistle tea :P

Warriors have mighty rage potion that gives them rage, buffs their strength, and has a cooldown half as long as thistle tea.

[Terrydavis]

Rogue tank was gutted intently a long time ago.
[...]
Do not expect your time being respected on this server unless you play one of the favored classes.

i remember a rogue tank saving us from a twin emperors wipe in a progress guild. that was a great moment. ofc that guy quit the game when rogue tank got removed. in the last 2 years or so we got more and more anti fun patches that i really cant get my head around.
i will never never never understand why rogue tanking was removed. it was a fun build for like 10 people on the server. it was never abused or anything. it didnt trivialize anything, at least to my knowledge.

the problem with rogues is
1. doesnt scale as good as warriors
-anyone who raids knows that you get 0 respect unless you are high up in the damage meter = you will never be respected as a rogue

2. no need for rogues in raids. every class is needed somewhere but rogue legit never except for bwl traps
3. doesnt provide any group support / buffs (i think they added some minor stuff now? not sure tbh i dont play it myself)
[ pvp stuff:
4. too many stuns and slows in pvp. ive been downed from 100% to 0 easily over 3000 (probably more) times by rogues without being able to press a single button. even if i get to press anything rogues have so much up their sleeve they can easily counter everything i could possibly do.
5. poison application over long distances needs to be removed. i honestly think the slowing poison should be removed entirely.
]

last time i raided the only reason to bring a rogue was so u dont have to disenchant rogue gear that drops.

[Moojaji]

The reason the dmg is so slow and low, is because of your stun lock abilities and runaway abilities.

I leveled one rogue in my entire wow gaming career, and yeah, in pvp you are king...so long as it's 1v1, and you get the drop on them, and they are pre-occupied...etc

I always felt that the stun, blind, etc was cool, but so OP that it only works in perfect scenarios

should rework locks and runs, make them less of an only pvp niche situation, to something more playable and helpful in pve as well. At the same time that they get "nerfed", rogue dmg should be buffed. So that you are viable in pvp and pve, overall, and not just niche situations.