Final Changelog for Class Changes coming in 1.16.1

[Velite]

I don't disagree that other specs shouldn't get buffs, I agree full prot warrior is underwhelming and I'd love to see a shaman tank progression path fully realised. But I just can't reconcile the notion that suddenly the ability to taunt is going to tip paladin over the edge. I already tank with other warriors, I'm not as good as them but I get the job mostly done already. I am tanking already, the actual impact of a taunt isn't going to change it too much.

Let's agree to disagree.

[Merikkinon]

There will be three outcomes - significant number of people will come here because of novelty in the Vanilla environment, a decent amount of us will stay around and adapt, and yes - a good number of people will leave. I am just curious as to how the balance will shake out.

[Velite]

There will be three outcomes - significant number of people will come here because of novelty in the Vanilla environment, a decent amount of us will stay around and adapt, and yes - a good number of people will leave. I am just curious as to how the balance will shake out.

If you didn't leave when high elves and goblins were introduced, nor when Portable Banks and Mage Tables were introduced, I do not see why anyone would suddenly leave now...

[Merikkinon]

World concepts vs game mechanics and how a class is conceived. There is a difference, although both are about how and what a player values. Those who weren't shook by those world creations (additions) maybe shaken by their own character becoming different, in some cases quite different. Like I said, some will be ok, some won't. We've already heard some commentary from all the camps within this thread.

But I suspect Kronos IV will get a mild boost from those who can't stomach this change.

I'm not complaining, just pointing out what you'll see.

[Merikkinon]

"Not a lot to say for Rogues. If anything, Combat being the only viable talent spec in PvE all the way to late AQ40/Naxx is unfortunate."

"unfortunate...."

[aka, "and we're gonna leave it that way, peeps..."]

Good lord. So then why did you not do something about that? Instead you do something even more for combat. The talent change is about the only thing that is anything for assass or sub. It's also the best thing in your changes.

As far as rogues, it looks like there was just not much creative juice flowing for balance. Even the presentation yawned that.

[Velite]

From what I've seen overall, most are changes to things that you don't normally use, or things you don't have to use. They are mostly additions and don't really conflict with the standard 1.12 way that classes play currently. That's why I find it hard to believe these are changes worth leaving the server for. They are very mild.

[Suwuxiv]

There will be three outcomes - significant number of people will come here because of novelty in the Vanilla environment, a decent amount of us will stay around and adapt, and yes - a good number of people will leave. I am just curious as to how the balance will shake out.

This server is not really advertised as a true vanilla experience. In fact, if you bother to check any of the Turtle WoW Youtube/Reddit posts for upcoming features or content, it's always about customs and it has been that way for quite some time.

Personally, when I first checked out this server back in 2019 -- before I really focused on it, what drew me here was postings by Turtle WoW developers for Outland and the like. Which are of course, customs.

As far as balance and meta goes and how these changes will effect that, I personally don't think things will change drastically to the point where what is most optimal now to be played will change. And hey, if they do I am confident things will be adjusted in time.

People need to give what can potentially be positive change a chance and assist with conditioning it so it works out in time if needed.

[Merikkinon]

Well, that may prove to be so. I agree on that possibility. I suspect some who will leave will do so on the very principle of change.

Well so be it.

[Qixel]

Some people left when we got Diplomacy. It happens, and Turtle goes on. But I'd wager a guess that diplomacy got Turtle WoW more new players than the handful that quit over it.

Anyways, to actually talk about stuff, I think avoidance could be a bit higher, but that's a buff we can look at after it's been implemented. While it's not the 90% it was in the actual game, anything is better than nothing and I appreciate any buff to let pets live.

I feel like Reflective Shields fits better in Discipline than Holy, from a thematic level.

I kind of wish Revive Champion was a battle rez with a long cooldown. It just seems to me to be inspired by Whitemane rezzing Mograine mid-fight, and that it's not a battle rez is actually kind of jarring. It's a really interesting idea overall, though!

Spirit Link looks pretty underwhelming compared to the other racial shaman spells, but perhaps seeing it in use will make me a believer. I'm figuring Hex is able to be used on bosses, because it seems kind of weak otherwise.

Twohanded Axes/Maces and parry being baseline is a fantastic change.

A lot of the 'your demon gets whatever' spells working with enslaved demons is fantastic, especially considering demon enemies might finally be more relevant with the upcoming content.

Thunderclap in defensive stance is fantastic, full stop, thank you.

Based upon the rogue entry, I get the feeling you guys are looking at fixing the debuff limit and I greatly appreciate it. Thank you so much.

[Doodledip]

Those are some very nice changes! The paladin one's in particular make me excited to level one.

Aspect of the Wolf | 120 Mana
The hunter takes on the aspects of a wolf, increasing melee attack power by 120 and disabling the use of ranged attacks. Only one Aspect can be active at a time.

I feel like you guys are forgetting that Mongoose Bite exists and can only be used with Aspect of the Monkey on when you are leveling melee. It seems like a big tradeoff to lose dodge % and a melee spell in order to get some AP.

I'm not sure what your goal was here exactly, but if it was to make melee weaving in raids more viable of a DPS boost then I feel like these changes also fall flat there considering you'd have to spend a lot of mana to switch between Hawk and Wolf.

Revive Champion | 81% Base Mana Cost | 2 Second Cast
Return the priest's Champion to life with 2500 health and 2600 mana.
Note: Cannot be cast in combat.

The champion stuff seems like it's all really cool but I don't really get the point of this spell? Seems to make like the only usage for this one are sneaky rezzes in BGs.

Tauren: Spirit Link | 21% Base Mana cost, 10 minute cooldown.
Link the spirits of an ally and their 3 closest allies within 15 yards together. When linked targets take damage, 10% is distributed among the other linked allies. Lasts 20 seconds.

In comparison to the other two, this seems really weak.

Personally I don't think I'd choose Tauren Shaman anymore just because of how boring and underwhelming Spirit Link sounds.


P.S. Not going to lie, I was expecting to see something about the debuff limit. The new Season of Mastery for Classic has shown that it adds some variety to raiding and could be an easy fix for a lot of classes. Maybe next patch? ;)

P.P.S. Also give Druids an out-of-combat rez please!

̶P̶.̶P̶.̶P̶.̶S̶.̶ ̶M̶e̶t̶a̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶W̶a̶r̶l̶o̶c̶k̶s̶ ̶W̶H̶E̶N̶?̶

[Lahire]

I'm torn about these changes.

The overall philosophy looks to be raid centric. This point of view inherited from TBC and onwards generates what I would call counter-sensic sentences, like the idea that hunter is underwhelming, though this class is a specialist in other fields than raiding (like leveling and farming). Or the sentence "paladin can only heal", though they are leveling and pvp specialists. This sentence can only be said in good faith if you only have raid in mind, and even there, a very restrictive vision of raiding (building a team for a speedrun attempt, proven by the fact the term "not viable" is used to designate non-optimal specs). These are meta-slavish sentences ; that's the feeling it gives me.

Vanilla class design had in mind all the facets of gameplay ; raid was almost an after-thought and only 10% of people raided. The appeal of vanilla above retail is that all activities received attention and care by the designers, notably leveling which was considered as the bulk of the experience. Changes have to take into consideration all the ecosystem of vanilla, not just optimization in a speedrunny raid context.

Then, I see the changes as a mixbag with potentials. I guess the moonkin changes look ok. I played it in classic and it was really too sluggish and punishing to play, equally during leveling, farming, dungeon and raid. I agree this spec needed attention.

The paladin changes I can't anticipate if they are correctly tuned. I find the translation of Sanctity to holy a strange decision, as it still makes Ret lock 11pts in holy. I strongly dislike giving paladin a taunt. Because it is homogenization between all 3 tanks. 2 out of 3 tanks already have a direct taunt, why standardize the design by giving it to the third one ? The brilliance of vanilla's topography comes from its subtle inequity, and retail was born from the idea everybody had to have the same tools.

Giving 2hands weapons to all shamans erks me. It was the chad specificity of enhancement, it felt like you were the dude in the place when you put the point on it and became really different from other shamans. It was the flavour, asymetry and appeal of enhancement. From a fantasy pov, this homogenization feels really bad.

Priest champion, I feel could create a meta of 40 priests giving the 40 raiders champion buffs before the raid. These are little flasks, they could create degenerated optimizations because they are too good to pass on.

One last thing, that we can already see in this thread. There is a big risk when you decide to modfy the class ecosystem. It's that now, every demand is legitimized, because it could be integrated (there is no limit to change). If a change has been done, then all other changes can be asked for. So prepare yourself to see hundreds of class change demands, and it is probable (I saw a lot in the thread) that most of these demands will lean towards retail philosophy :
- homogenization of gameplay (for example "give druid a real rez spell)
- autonomy in solo-play (everybody can do everything)
- equity in end game (everybody is equally optimal)

These are the usual retail philosophies, and they will storm the playerbase because they feel intuitively good from a player pov. Retail was born from player demands ; be careful about this fact. When you follow retail philosophies coming out of players demands, players feel great at first (their demands have been met : "yay ima paladin i've got a taunt now yahoo!"), but then feel less and less good as time runs out, because the loss of integrity lessens the overall experience. It's a design trap.

[Lyriq]

This was a lot to take in on first reading, had to sleep on it to digest it. I honestly feel thrilled for the hybrid changes and the concept of bringing them on par with the rest of the Vanilla specs. I wouldn't get discouraged by the doomsayers, the vast majority of people I spoke with in-game are extremely excited for all this.

I'll just give my two cents on some of the changes.

Druid: Just beautiful changes. Love all of them.
Hunter: Glad for the pet fixes. Curious about the new abilities and how they will affect the playstyle.
Mage: Excited for Arcane mages in raids. I wonder if Brilliance Aura might be a bit too good for the other mage PvE specs that dip into the Arcane tree.
Paladin: Also excited for this. I feel like a lot of thought was put into this to make it feel appropriate based on the original design.
Priest: Here come the mana batteries! I was a bit overwhelmed by Proclaim Champion but people seem to like it so let's see how it turns out in-game.
Rogue: It's alright. Mostly flavour changes but the class already felt great.
Shaman: Bloodlust will be a game changer for sure. Overall great hybrid changes.
Warlock: Pet fixes appreciated. Demo changes are fun and the extended Destruction spell knockback protection is also cool.
Warrior: Good idea to make Intervene share its cooldown with Intercept. Thunderclap damage buff and usable in Defensive stance is awesome.

PvE: It's hard to say right now but I think Bloodlust, the various new party-wide buffs and auras on top of reduced spell costs will trivialize raiding content to a degree. Extended testing will be needed. I wouldn't panic over it anyway, I'm sure TWoW already expects that several fixes and balancing will be needed after 1.15.2's launch.

Debuff Limit: I've seen it mentioned a few times in the post and I'm sure it's something you're working on. Just gonna say that this will exarcebate the issue mentioned above so we'll really need to keep an eye on general PvE balance.

PvP: Oh boy, I'm sure glad this server is PvE-focused because otherwise this thread would have been much different. In any case I welcome our new hybrid overlords.

My only suggestion is to keep a steady hand and follow your vision. Once you open the class balance door people get wild. Everyone has their different ideas on the matter and as you already saw the debates get heated real quick. If you start following only the outrage of the few and trying to appease them, well, you simply become what Blizzard is today.

Overall I enjoy your take on the class changes. We'll test it, adapt and welcome the new meta. Can't wait for 1.15.2! Anyway here's us on the new patch launch: https://imgflip.com/i/5t9jzl

[Unangwata]

Well that's some sort of relief. But I don't like they change nature of some classes like paladin with taunt. Whole pleasure of tanking in vanilla is to make it work even with no taunt. The war on the other hand has no aoe and whole trick of tanking is to manage without it, now they give him Thunderclap in defensive stance. This looks more like TBC than vanilla.

Warrior can circumvent lack of aoe through engineering, paladin has no way to circumvent lack of taunt though.

You got Holy Strike already. It makes whole damage Holy which helps with aggro that classic pals didn't have. Now you get Crusader Strike and Taunt together, all you need is bag of popcorn.

[Afaslizo]

The hybrid tax philosophy is by far the dumbest argument ever concerning class design. Gimping half of your classes to make "pure" classes overrepresentative, starve the tank pool and concentrate utility in a few meme specs never seemed a solid strategy to me. In vanilla you are penalized if you spec into the wrong tree or pick any class you want because only a few ascended are allowed to see the content the way they want.

I never understood why you should not be allowed to see certain ingame content because you like to play a certain spec or class.

The hybrid tax is stupid in combination with the talent system because class identity is combined with the talent that make or break your character. A druid is not an amazing tank if specced deep into balance and a shaman has even more subpar dps if specced into restoration. The hybrid tax fanatics just want their meme specs and overpowered classes even though they are well aware of the talent tree facts. Denial of fun for other players is allways a big push for certain players because power is a kind of drug for a large portion of the human population. Having fun at the cost of other people having fun is a major drive for that kind of people (thank the Earthmother Turtle is no pvp server because those same people are the main crowd behind gankers and griefers).

I agree with BC talent and class adjustments being the better version (though I dislike the extremities of that design and the other choices combined with that e.g. Level cap increase, flying). I don't want Turtle to be a BC server and like the vanilla from Warcraft 3 aspects better.

--------- For the class changes------

As an avid cat player I like some of these changes a lot even though I believe dot adjustments and weapon scaling would have been better.
Dots and debuff slots should scale like raids already are able to so you have much more flexibility by still having a priority list in some encounters.

Priest changes seem lackluster. Discipline needs more work and even though I loathe Wrath with every fibre of my being I believe that its take on discipline priests is a good cue if used with caution instead of the overpowered mess that expansion turned everything into.
Shadow's new arcane explosion seems stupid and not worth using. The nuke that heals itself is also a bad idea. Power Word: Death is a better incarnation for that. As other people pointed out mana reg is a bit too strong if implemented that way and should be adjusted to make shadows welcome but not mandatory(that would lead to the other extreme and I believe hybrids and pures should be represented equally where you take the players you want without having to bully people to play spec of the month or build).
Maybe give shadows utility instead like a dark cloud which hampers enemies temporarily; an ability that can smooth some situations but is not overpowered.
Holy champion feels like some sort of power fantasy and might be an interesting idea on paper but reads as a simple inversion of the later warrior's bodyguard. If you want something like that use that Guardian Angel ability for a one time death prevention. Useful to survive critical moments but with an appropriate cd to not become spamable.
Fear Ward should be baseline; race spells maybe deserve a look into them anyway because some are next to useless on a pve rp server and others are useful in every situation.

Shaman redesign is a bit over the place with racial spells being hampered by overly long cds. No idea why I would want to play anything but an Orc shaman after that. The suggested spells seem interesting but need further adjustments. Maybe give trolls a hex totem intead as an ae oh shit button to shut down a crowd for 2-4 s with either a polymorph or fix-in-place fear on a 10 min cd. Make Tauren spirit link a buff ability to share healing and health pool but also damage income(so the drawback is also casting time loss if the linked person suffers damage).

Rogues could need more utilities which are useful for the group instead of only for themselves. Maybe give subtility more abilities to shroud areas or actions like aggro and magic dampening with an aoe 5s stealth as ultimate ability with 20 min cd to reset fights for up to 5 people(so they still have to run out).
Make assassination mark people like hunters but for bleeds and physical debuff refreshments. Maybe give them finishers to transfer debuffs to another target for utility swapping.

Mage could need a bit more synergy between talents to make frost and fire a good combination with maybe a frost talent that uses fire spells to strip cold resistance and apply fire dots as frostburn cold dots and a fire talent which leads to burning target exloding when using frost spells on them and maybe leaving some mud field behind.

[Unangwata]

I just don't know why I would chose turtle over TBC server. Major class changes just imitate TBC, so what's the point? You are killing vanilla here, not improving it. And TBC is still better version of what you want to achieve.

[Unangwata]

But the worst crime is Turtle betraying it's own philosophy.
Which was vanilla with removed features, and some extra like quests, items and new race, fashioner. All those don't hurt because main thing was still vanilla.
Now they are going crazy.
And vanilla with removed features was based on Blizzard reputation, people trusted that. Now it's just server with crazy developers and has nothing to do with Blizzard anymore. Won't inspire confidence when choosing server. It's like Ascension or other crap now.
You are trading game reputation it has over the years known to millions for your own reputation, and what reputation is that ? You think you can do it better ? Well good luck, even if you do you, you won't beat Blizzard.

[Snowwolf]

So, from what I see, most people like the changes, and there's like, one or two people who are really, REALLY, REALLY hate the changes.

Which is fine, y'know?

But there's no call for the amount of rudeness I'm seeing be slung around.... I mean, who ever changes their mind from being insulted...? No one. Mostly makes people set their heels in and say "nope."

[Unangwata]

So, from what I see, most people like the changes, and there's like, one or two people who are really, REALLY, REALLY hate the changes.

Which is fine, y'know?

But there's no call for the amount of rudeness I'm seeing be slung around.... I mean, who ever changes their mind from being insulted...? No one. Mostly makes people set their heels in and say "nope."

Most people ? Look how many play, and how many of those post on forum. There are literally few "inventors" posting their ideas and of course they will like the changes because they are bored. The thing is you are screwing game for everyone else, that came for vanilla, or came from other vanilla server via transfer. All of them didn't look for fkin FUN server. And now most of vanilla people will avoid Turtle and there are better fun servers.

[Afaslizo]

Most people ? Look how many play, and how many of those post on forum. There are literally few "inventors" posting their ideas and of course they will like the changes because they are bored. The thing is you are screwing game for everyone else, that came for vanilla, or came from other vanilla server via transfer. All of them didn't look for fkin FUN server. And now most of vanilla people will avoid Turtle and there are better fun servers.

So you know what most of the people want but others don't? Could you enlighten me how you came to that knowledge? And who defines what a better server is and why should that be you?

[Lahire]

But the worst crime is Turtle betraying it's own philosophy.
Which was vanilla with removed features, and some extra like quests, items and new race, fashioner. All those don't hurt because main thing was still vanilla.
Now they are going crazy.
And vanilla with removed features was based on Blizzard reputation, people trusted that. Now it's just server with crazy developers and has nothing to do with Blizzard anymore. Won't inspire confidence when choosing server. It's like Ascension or other crap now.
You are trading game reputation it has over the years known to millions for your own reputation, and what reputation is that ? You think you can do it better ? Well good luck, even if you do you, you won't beat Blizzard.

While the tone is too harsh, I kinda agree with the sentiment. I don't know if I can trust ambitious but still amateurish/rookie random designers to amend the best mmorpg design of all times (vanilla). Adding content is fair game, as it expands vanilla. But changing the class dynamics modifies the core of what vanilla is. I would more easily accept it coming from a professional, old and seasoned designer I know I can trust.

Perhaps try to contact Kevin Jordan, he is very approachable and streams regularly. See what he thinks about your changes. My guess is he would criticize a good portion of it.

[Mantigora]

In reference to this post:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1745

I would ask if the Hunter pets can go to the next level at the same time as the players levels up and you do not need to spend 25% of your level to have your pet catch up with you.

Of all the proposed changes, I can only say that it is a LOT to take in and I wonder if this is not a too big of a bite.
It is commonly said that the druid-class, especially feral, is lackluster and should have been taken care of better.
Why do such a big change on all the classes in one go?
Why not test the waters with a small change first?

I can understand the sentiments that say to 'fix' Vanilla is one thing, to overhaul it is something else.

Don't get me wrong, I see some interesting changes mentionend, but also, I am not sure that because of being 'interesting' it should therefore be implemented.

It's a design trap.

This sums it up pretty good, I think.

[Felbrood]

Before making any paladin changes, you should first add holy resistances to game, and any living creature should have at least 100 of em, then you may change judgment of crusade to sunder this resistances, or make it in crusader strike stacks.

[Sinrek]

DISCLAIMER: All of these changes are tentative and subject to change. The final changelog will be published alongside the release of 15.2.

We want to welcome all of you to discuss & give constructive feedback on any changes made to this list.

Another friendly reminder. Please, keep it civil. We're all here to discuss ideas, not people. Feel free to back your ideas up with some facts or at least expectations and reasoning. I'm sure you're all very capable and patient turtles.

[Riverkill]

Very exciting! Looking forward to trying these out!

[Valadorn]

Before making any paladin changes, you should first add holy resistances to game, and any living creature should have at least 100 of em, then you may change judgment of crusade to sunder this resistances, or make it in crusader strike stacks.

Holy resist potions are pretty cheap and easy to make, I dont see ur problems, paladins have at best mediocore dmg and no AOE while having no slows or movement speed increases or long range attacks, while having long cast times on the heals and no aoe heals or heals over time. Let me guess, you lost a duel to a paladin and are butthurt, or Just dont know how to fight em ?


You sound like you never played a paladin.

[Mac]

The thing to keep in mind is that this wouldn't be the first time that vanilla classes got revamps. From 1.1 to 1.12, classes went through a bunch of revamps to their talents and spells/abilities. These revamps were all done in an attempt to balance the classes and reduce inequity between classes for leveling, for solo play, for dungeons, for PVP, and for raids.

1.6 was the Warrior and Warlock revamp.
1.7 was the Hunter revamp.
1.8 was the Druid revamp.
1.9 was the Paladin revamp.
1.11 was the Mage and Shaman revamp.
1.12 was the Rogue revamp.

And those were just the major patches, where the classes had their talents refunded because they had been fundamentally changed. In almost every patch, at least one thing about one class was altered.

Turtle WoW doing class updates is 100% in spirit and tradition with vanilla WoW.

[Lahire]

The thing to keep in mind is that this wouldn't be the first time that vanilla classes got revamps. From 1.1 to 1.12, classes went through a bunch of revamps to their talents and spells/abilities.

Yeah but it was done by professionnal old blizz designers who managed to produce the best mmorpg of all times and looked at the game with an all-encompassing eye, not just from the raider point of view. They proved by their design they had the skill, restraint and philosophies to do it right, on a world scale (and not just on a raid scale).

With respect to the hard working and valiant turtle team, who delivered great content to this day ; can you trust players made into amateur designers to evolve something as complex and precise as vanilla's class design ? Even raiders made into professional designers, like Ion, failed utterly at this task.

So idk, I feel it is too ambitious, too much changes all over the place, without really thinking about the ripple effects and degenerate emergent gameplay they could (will) produce. Perhaps there is something to the saying "prudence is mother of virtue".

[Mac]

With respect to the hard working and valiant turtle team, can you trust players made into amateur designers to evolve vanilla's class design ?

Yes, I trust them.

[Valadorn]

The thing to keep in mind is that this wouldn't be the first time that vanilla classes got revamps. From 1.1 to 1.12, classes went through a bunch of revamps to their talents and spells/abilities.

Yeah but it was done by professionnal old blizz designers who managed to produce the best mmorpg of all times and looked at the game with an all-encompassing eye, not just from the raider point of view. They proved by their design they had the skill, restraint and philosophies to do it right, on a world scale (and not just on a raid scale).

With respect to the hard working and valiant turtle team, who delivered great content to this day ; can you trust players made into amateur designers to evolve something as complex and precise as vanilla's class design ? Even raiders made into professional designers, like Ion, failed utterly at this task.

So idk, I feel it is too ambitious, too much changes all over the place, without really thinking about the ripple effects and degenerate emergent gameplay they could (will) produce. Perhaps there is something to the saying "prudence is mother of virtue".

Yes I trust them, Why so negative without even giving them a chance ?

[Nerasw]

for those of you who forgot that warrior is hybrid class (can tank, can DPS) answer me why the hell hybrid class can do more dps than rogue who has 3 dps trees?)

[Felbrood]

Holy resist potions are pretty cheap and easy to make, I dont see ur problems, paladins have at best mediocore dmg and no AOE while having no slows or movement speed increases or long range attacks, while having long cast times on the heals and no aoe heals or heals over time. Let me guess, you lost a duel to a paladin and are butthurt, or Just dont know how to fight em ?


You sound like you never played a paladin.

First of all i mean PvE, i dont care about paladins in pvp. They die like all, ofc if they didnt use bubble and run.

[Lahire]

Yes I trust them, Why so negative without even giving them a chance ?

Because I have been hyped and then betrayed too many time to give my trust blindly anymore. And there are the facts I gave (one do not invent themselves game designer over night, and vanilla's design is too good to do harsh changes).

[Valadorn]

Holy resist potions are pretty cheap and easy to make, I dont see ur problems, paladins have at best mediocore dmg and no AOE while having no slows or movement speed increases or long range attacks, while having long cast times on the heals and no aoe heals or heals over time. Let me guess, you lost a duel to a paladin and are butthurt, or Just dont know how to fight em ?


You sound like you never played a paladin.

First of all i mean PvE, i dont care about paladins in pvp. They die like all, ofc if they didnt use bubble and run.

Ah, I am sorry, I was talking purely PvP perspective

[Valadorn]

Yes I trust them, Why so negative without even giving them a chance ?

Because I have been hyped and then betrayed too many time to give my trust blindly anymore. And there are the facts I gave (one do not invent themselves game designer over night, and vanilla's design is too good to do harsh changes).

So Turtle Team betrayed you too many times ? I dont know, they have been delievering over my expectations so far

[Lahire]

One cannot forget past experiences. For me TBC is an overall failure in design. I've been betrayed day 1 the first team passed the game to a new one. And then classic debacle, SoM shitfest, half the p-serv devolving into hubris changefest... one can't just forget this history.

So when I see this much core changes at the same time in so much places from a team I like but can't call professionnal level, I buckle up with low expectation. If you read my first post, you'll see it's not entirely negative, and I'm open to try the changes. But I'm not hyped, or even benevolant toward them, because all my past experiences scream I shouldn't be.