Goblin Priests

[Lorddandas]

I´ve read that the devs do not plan on implementing new race/class combinations but I´m going to give it a shot anyway. I will start with gear as it is the most surface level reason

Gear
Rich Goblins often wear tidy, neat but extravagant clothes very reminisent of the Priest tier sets.
Goblins are devided into cartels and high status members of cartels usually do have very neat clothes.
For instance, many movies about itallian cartels have Christian themes and church often plays a crucial role. Even the Goblin theme of cartels cannot go without Priesthood.
Priest fantasy, identity and gear resonates all well with the Goblin theme of cartels. As well as their conflict-averse nature.

Denying Goblins their depth
In the same way Forsaken can be priests, I can imagine if you were designing Forsaken as a custom race you wouldn´t allow them to be priests because you´d use the same logic as for why Goblins cannot be priests. They´re undead, the light harms undead, therefore they cannot be priests.

Goblin Personality
All races are on a spectrum. For Orcs, for example, it´s from Thrall to Garrosh. For Goblins it is from the greediest to the most innovative.
The Light is about Enlightement and Harmony... Perfect traits for a healthy business.
Evident by Goblin´s consistant neutrality, it is clear Goblins value harmony, if only for the sake of business. And faith in Light is a Good way to make harmony come and make the businesses flourish.
Goblins are people-people. By which I mean that unlike Gnomes, Goblins have a way with people. They are Good advertisers, merchants, to say they don´t got spirit or cannot lift someone´s spirit is a midjudgement of their abilities.
You cannot reproach Goblins for their lack of faith either. It´s not like their confidence in most of their inventions comes from a logical place. Their inventions require a pinch of faith. You wouldn´t be able to ride a vehicle made out of scraps and rockets without having some faith.

Ingame consistancy
I have noticed some Tauren NPC say that "Goblins are an interesting folk but they could use more spirituality." so I infered that the choice to deny them the ability to be priests was a purposeful one. But remember that Turtle´s playable Goblins are specifically ex-venture company Goblins. So you could accuse them specifically for lacking spirit and make their Priesthood about repentance from being ex-venture company Goblins.

Culture
As has been stated, these Goblins are ex-venture company members, a company riddled with greed. It has been stated that greed remains a part of their culture. Priesthood could be a way to midigate the greed to distinguish the Durotar Union from the venture company, an attempt at bettering themselves and becoming more healthy merchants and innovators. An inner cultural struggle, which would make interacting with Durotar Union characters more interesting.
In other words, Priesthood would be a way of repentance for the greed of their past actions at venture company. Just as with Orc´s agression with part of the culture, it is not always honorable, with Goblin culture greed is not always Good for business... hence, despite their tendencies for it there may be an attempt to midigate it. Making Durotar Labour union a complex bunch with a rich culture.

Ingame Balance
Someone said that Goblins are a parallel to Gnomes. World of Warcraft design doesn´t seem to have many parallels. The only one I can really think of that is a real parallel is Tauren and Night Elves but even their only similarity is that they´re the only races that can play druid... that´s where the parallel ends.
But if it´s about class balance, then, well, Alliance got a race that can be a priest while Horde did not, even though Goblins are fitting for a priest.

So I guess, without making it too long, this is my case.

[Sleeplust]

Goblins and gnomes should be engineering oriented races uninterested in casting magic themselves.

[Lorddandas]

Goblins and gnomes should be engineering oriented races uninterested in casting magic themselves.

Not really relevant. Since Goblins are already allowed caster classes there is no issue with allowing one more caster class.

[Dracarusggotham]

Goblins and gnomes should be engineering oriented races uninterested in casting magic themselves.

Both are very intellectual races, they're good casters, BUT, I guess they're not interested in the holy things like paladins or priests.

I prefer the Tauren as priests instead Goblins.

[Lorddandas]

Goblins and gnomes should be engineering oriented races uninterested in casting magic themselves.

Both are very intellectual races, they're good casters, BUT, I guess they're not interested in the holy things like paladins or priests.

I prefer the Tauren as priests instead Goblins.

Why not ? I think that´s like saying Undead cannot be priests because they´re undead. Gnomes, sure they aren´t. But Goblins are a very harmony oriented race, they have more people-skills than Gnomes do because they´re merchants first and inventors second. Faith in the Light is a Good way to ensure harmonious growth of an economy. That´s the appeal Goblins would see in the Light. I think Goblins deserve depth.

Also, I disagree on Tauren priests because the Light is self-righteous, fanatical and stubborn. No Tauren is like that even at their worst. The Light is a whole different kind of spirituality from shamanism or druidism. It has a more stubborn idea of harmony.
That´s why you don´t see a shamanistic version of scarlet crusade.

[Sleeplust]

Goblins and gnomes should be engineering oriented races uninterested in casting magic themselves.

Both are very intellectual races, they're good casters, BUT, I guess they're not interested in the holy things like paladins or priests.

I prefer the Tauren as priests instead Goblins.

Why not ? I think that´s like saying Undead cannot be priests because they´re undead. Gnomes, sure they aren´t. But Goblins are a very harmony oriented race, they have more people-skills than Gnomes do because they´re merchants first and inventors second. Faith in the Light is a Good way to ensure harmonious growth of an economy. That´s the appeal Goblins would see in the Light. I think Goblins deserve depth.

Also, I disagree on Tauren priests because the Light is self-righteous, fanatical and stubborn. No Tauren is like that even at their worst. The Light is a whole different kind of spirituality from shamanism or druidism. It has a more stubborn idea of harmony.
That´s why you don´t see a shamanistic version of scarlet crusade.

Priest isn't paladin who functions with and is defined by holy light. Believers of Old Gods and Troll Shadow Priests in Warcraft III can bear the title priest.

[Cosmico]

I´ve read that the devs do not plan on implementing new race/class combinations but I´m going to give it a shot anyway. I will start with gear as it is the most surface level reason

...

So I guess, without making it too long, this is my case.

If there's 5 to 100 goblin priest in canon outside the gameplay that's totally fine. But is not enough of an argument to ask for a playable class. I mean, good luck, if they listen to you then congratulations, for real. However... let's think deep into this.

Is not enough to have a character class, it needs a background a society/community and politic hub for their faction or against it. So if the goblin faction is against a bunch of praying goblins they cannot become alliance because that is certainly not possible in canon. Let's say they joint and organize into a church of the holy spaghetti, how many time will take for that church to get burn into ashes for corruption and not so diplomatic "change of leadership". Think about that. A race is not the stereotype is their culture. And there is no faith in goblins culture only maybe a blind faith in money.

[Zvyrhol]

Priest in Warcraft shares similar values as priests of various religions in real life.
Greed is certainly not a virtue in any religion, it's even a sin in Christianity. Goblins are greedy in nature so logically they shouldn't be priests.

[Lorddandas]

Priest in Warcraft shares similar values as priests of various religions in real life.
Greed is certainly not a virtue in any religion, it's even a sin in Christianity. Goblins are greedy in nature so logically they shouldn't be priests.

That´s like saying Undead can´t be priests because being an undead cannibalistic abomination is a sin. It is not as black and white, I think we shouldn´t deny them their depth.

[Lorddandas]

I´ve read that the devs do not plan on implementing new race/class combinations but I´m going to give it a shot anyway. I will start with gear as it is the most surface level reason

...

So I guess, without making it too long, this is my case.

If there's 5 to 100 goblin priest in canon outside the gameplay that's totally fine. But is not enough of an argument to ask for a playable class. I mean, good luck, if they listen to you then congratulations, for real. However... let's think deep into this.

Is not enough to have a character class, it needs a background a society/community and politic hub for their faction or against it. So if the goblin faction is against a bunch of praying goblins they cannot become alliance because that is certainly not possible in canon. Let's say they joint and organize into a church of the holy spaghetti, how many time will take for that church to get burn into ashes for corruption and not so diplomatic "change of leadership". Think about that. A race is not the stereotype is their culture. And there is no faith in goblins culture only maybe a blind faith in money.

I am imagining a theme of Itallian mafia where church often plays quite a crucial role.
Goblins are far less savage than Forsaken or Orcs yet they are the ones who are denied spirituality ?
It really depends what view do Goblins have of greed as a trait. Given that not all Goblins have resorted to venture company level evils to get money, it's likely that they view their own tendencies for greed as something not exactly Great. Just like Orcs exist on a spectrum from Garrosh to Thrall, Goblins exist on a spectrum from the most greediest to the most innovative. They aren´t inherently evil and despite their tendencies for greed they can have a conscience. Priesthood would serve the cultural and societal function of midigating the greed for the sake of everyone's monetary benefit, healthy economy and business. If you wanna tie it to TWoW´s lore you can make priesthood as a way for Durotar Labour Union to seek redemption for the sins they commited as members of venture company.
In no way am I undermining Goblins greedy nature but I believe they have enough conscience to recognize it as bad and attempt to midigate it, even if they may fail in the end. It is precisely because of their uncontrolled greed that they have a need for priesthood. In the same way mafia members in movies seek church to ease their conscience.
It would create an inner cultural struggle which would give depth to the Goblins.

And there is no faith in goblins culture only maybe a blind faith in money.

Also blind faith in their inventions.

[Lorddandas]

Priest in Warcraft shares similar values as priests of various religions in real life.
Greed is certainly not a virtue in any religion, it's even a sin in Christianity. Goblins are greedy in nature so logically they shouldn't be priests.

That´s like saying Undead can´t be priests because being an undead cannibalistic abomination is a sin. It is not as black and white, I think we shouldn´t deny them their depth.
Christians in real life are sometimes sinners but they repent and seek forgiveness. Christianity doesn´t believe Christians are Perfect. Which may also be the case with the undead. So again, it isn´t as black and white.

[Sylveria]

I'm Not even Reading through the whole topic again. But since some people brought Up Undead priests again....
I'm Just Copy/Pasting myself.

Here we go again.. I'm gonna wrap up all my knowledge about Priests, Paladins, the Holy Light and what was kinda "changed" or "retconned" by Blizzard with vanilla WoW (and to me never made any sense.)

First of all: Priests.

What we got in WoW as Priest is actually a simplified version of what priests in WoW are. Depending on the race/culture priests would be something completly different. Their powers are no "magic" in the common sense like mages or warlocks have it, but those are powers gifted by their respective gods/faiths.
The nightelves for example don't wield the powers of the Light, but those of Elune. It's a completly different faith.
Same goes for the trolls. They neither believe in the light, nor Elune. Their faith lies in the Loa.
I'll handle the complete topic about the Undead a bit later.

Paladins & The Holy Light:

The Order of the Silver Hand was founded by Archbishop Alonsus Faol, and yes as hilarious as it might sound, paladins are "combat priests". They learned to weaponize the light against the forces of evil and the unnatural. And one thing that was shown multiple times, in WarCraft II as well as in WarCraft III is that the Light is harming the undead. In WarCraft II Paladins had the exorcism spell that could only harm the Deathknights from the Horde and Skeletons (Deathknights in WarCraft II were the dead bodys of former Stormwind Knights infused with the warlock spirits of the Shadow Council, so basically they're undead).
In WarCraft III the same: The Holy Light spell from WarCraft III could be used to heal allied units EXCEPT undead (and mechanical) units.. and could be used as an attack against Undead - again here we have: Light harms Undead.

Paladins and Undead:

So here we have the big argument about the holy light harming the undead. But what about Paladins TURNING undead? Here we have two prime examples what happened to them: Prince Arthas Menethil and Alexandros Morgraine. Both Paladins, bot with an actual big background story and both lost their connection to the light, unable to wield and use it anymore when they turned undead.

Yes, i already know that people like to point to Sir Zeliek. But seriously. :D Here comes a new character out of nowhere, never heared before in the history of WarCraft and we just accept it without questioning it? ^^ This alone is one of my biggest criticisms about Vanilla.
And even if: Sir Zeliek would then be an exceptional case, that doesn't mean that there would be enough undead around capable of being paladin. Else we can ride the wave and accept all later retcons as well. :/

I mentioned earlier, that Priests were a simplified version in WoW and would differ depending on their race and culture. Same goes for undead priests. They'd only be shadow priests. YES, BUT that wouldn't mean they'd only be capable of offensive spells. Things like "Shadow Heal" was a thing, at least in WC3 or so if i remember correctly. So if we'd make the undead priests true to their culture, all spells would need to be shadow themed, even the healing(holy) ones.

And since it's been mentioned regarding Dwarves and Shamanism. I don't know where you people get it that the Wildhammers are supposed to be Shamans, but their Stormhammers are actually more of titanic magic, not related to shamanism.
Or did you know, that the warriors thunderclap was originally designed to be a shaman ability but was moved to the warrior. Does that mean that the warriors are now shamans as well? :D

The linked Fraggar Thundermantle was classified as a shaman after Cataclysm, when the dwarfes got their shamans. He got his shaman abilities after cataclysm release.

And if you still stand by your point, please explain to me why Arthas and Alexandros Morgraine lost their connection to the light, especially Morgraine.

After going through that, please Tell me which Sort of belief/Religion gnomes and Goblins have. ^^
Just Copy/Pasting the light onto Goblins IS taking any Sort of depths to the goblins Instead of adding it.

[Lorddandas]

I'm Not even Reading through the whole topic again. But since some people brought Up Undead priests again....
I'm Just Copy/Pasting myself.

Here we go again.. I'm gonna wrap up all my knowledge about Priests, Paladins, the Holy Light and what was kinda "changed" or "retconned" by Blizzard with vanilla WoW (and to me never made any sense.)

First of all: Priests.

What we got in WoW as Priest is actually a simplified version of what priests in WoW are. Depending on the race/culture priests would be something completly different. Their powers are no "magic" in the common sense like mages or warlocks have it, but those are powers gifted by their respective gods/faiths.
The nightelves for example don't wield the powers of the Light, but those of Elune. It's a completly different faith.
Same goes for the trolls. They neither believe in the light, nor Elune. Their faith lies in the Loa.
I'll handle the complete topic about the Undead a bit later.

Paladins & The Holy Light:

The Order of the Silver Hand was founded by Archbishop Alonsus Faol, and yes as hilarious as it might sound, paladins are "combat priests". They learned to weaponize the light against the forces of evil and the unnatural. And one thing that was shown multiple times, in WarCraft II as well as in WarCraft III is that the Light is harming the undead. In WarCraft II Paladins had the exorcism spell that could only harm the Deathknights from the Horde and Skeletons (Deathknights in WarCraft II were the dead bodys of former Stormwind Knights infused with the warlock spirits of the Shadow Council, so basically they're undead).
In WarCraft III the same: The Holy Light spell from WarCraft III could be used to heal allied units EXCEPT undead (and mechanical) units.. and could be used as an attack against Undead - again here we have: Light harms Undead.

Paladins and Undead:

So here we have the big argument about the holy light harming the undead. But what about Paladins TURNING undead? Here we have two prime examples what happened to them: Prince Arthas Menethil and Alexandros Morgraine. Both Paladins, bot with an actual big background story and both lost their connection to the light, unable to wield and use it anymore when they turned undead.

Yes, i already know that people like to point to Sir Zeliek. But seriously. :D Here comes a new character out of nowhere, never heared before in the history of WarCraft and we just accept it without questioning it? ^^ This alone is one of my biggest criticisms about Vanilla.
And even if: Sir Zeliek would then be an exceptional case, that doesn't mean that there would be enough undead around capable of being paladin. Else we can ride the wave and accept all later retcons as well. :/

I mentioned earlier, that Priests were a simplified version in WoW and would differ depending on their race and culture. Same goes for undead priests. They'd only be shadow priests. YES, BUT that wouldn't mean they'd only be capable of offensive spells. Things like "Shadow Heal" was a thing, at least in WC3 or so if i remember correctly. So if we'd make the undead priests true to their culture, all spells would need to be shadow themed, even the healing(holy) ones.

And since it's been mentioned regarding Dwarves and Shamanism. I don't know where you people get it that the Wildhammers are supposed to be Shamans, but their Stormhammers are actually more of titanic magic, not related to shamanism.
Or did you know, that the warriors thunderclap was originally designed to be a shaman ability but was moved to the warrior. Does that mean that the warriors are now shamans as well? :D

The linked Fraggar Thundermantle was classified as a shaman after Cataclysm, when the dwarfes got their shamans. He got his shaman abilities after cataclysm release.

And if you still stand by your point, please explain to me why Arthas and Alexandros Morgraine lost their connection to the light, especially Morgraine.

After going through that, please Tell me which Sort of belief/Religion gnomes and Goblins have. ^^
Just Copy/Pasting the light onto Goblins IS taking any Sort of depths to the goblins Instead of adding it.

I am going off of Goblins´ open-mindedness and adaptability. I imagine them adapting whichever faith they find useful. It would depend on a specific cartel.
I am not taking away depths from the Goblins because I want to distinguish them from the Gnomes. Goblins are merchants first and inventors second, that means Goblins have vast interpersonal skills which Gnomes lack. They also have an irrational confidence in the functionality of some of their devices for the same reason, merchants first, inventors second. Priesthood would compliment this interpersonal or irrational aspect of Goblins.
I do not advocate for Gnome priests. Alliance already has 3 priest classes. I advocate for Goblin priests. There is a difference between Gnomes and Goblins.

And with Arthas, you could make the argument that Light didn´t abandon him on the basis of him being undead but rather him... not really practicing it anymore to say it lightly.

[Cosmico]

I´ve read that the devs do not plan on implementing new race/class combinations but I´m going to give it a shot anyway. I will start with gear as it is the most surface level reason

...

So I guess, without making it too long, this is my case.

If there's 5 to 100 goblin priest in canon outside the gameplay that's totally fine. But is not enough of an argument to ask for a playable class. I mean, good luck, if they listen to you then congratulations, for real. However... let's think deep into this.

Is not enough to have a character class, it needs a background a society/community and politic hub for their faction or against it. So if the goblin faction is against a bunch of praying goblins they cannot become alliance because that is certainly not possible in canon. Let's say they joint and organize into a church of the holy spaghetti, how many time will take for that church to get burn into ashes for corruption and not so diplomatic "change of leadership". Think about that. A race is not the stereotype is their culture. And there is no faith in goblins culture only maybe a blind faith in money.

I am imagining a theme of Itallian mafia where church often plays quite a crucial role.
Goblins are far less savage than Forsaken or Orcs yet they are the ones who are denied spirituality ?
It really depends what view do Goblins have of greed as a trait. Given that not all Goblins have resorted to venture company level evils to get money, it's likely that they view their own tendencies for greed as something not exactly Great. Just like Orcs exist on a spectrum from Garrosh to Thrall, Goblins exist on a spectrum from the most greediest to the most innovative. They aren´t inherently evil and despite their tendencies for greed they can have a conscience. Priesthood would serve the cultural and societal function of midigating the greed for the sake of everyone's monetary benefit, healthy economy and business. If you wanna tie it to TWoW´s lore you can make priesthood as a way for Durotar Labour Union to seek redemption for the sins they commited as members of venture company.
In no way am I undermining Goblins greedy nature but I believe they have enough conscience to recognize it as bad and attempt to midigate it, even if they may fail in the end. It is precisely because of their uncontrolled greed that they have a need for priesthood. In the same way mafia members in movies seek church to ease their conscience.
It would create an inner cultural struggle which would give depth to the Goblins.

And there is no faith in goblins culture only maybe a blind faith in money.

Also blind faith in their inventions.

I won't be the guy to tell you that is lore-accurate to deny a holy church for goblins. I just wonder if we should. Let the experts in the story and the devs tell that.

[Floborrowski]

I've looked through the forum and Discord for the topic of adding goblin priests and the earliest mentions I've found of this topic were back in 2021.
So... Has there ever been actually a stance on this specifically from the creators of Turtle WoW or other server authorities? Maybe I missed it, maybe it was on the radio or somewhere else I didn't look.

So far seeing how old this topic is, I doubt that I or anyone else who wants goblin priests will be able to influence this on their own, so I just want to understand if I'll be able to play the combination I want in the foreseeable future, the combination that attracted me back in cataclysm in 2010.
I'm not going to get into lore wars about this, I just want to understand if it makes sense to wait for this combination at all.

P.S. I apologize for the quality of what and how I write, English is not my native language.

[Zvyrhol]

P.S. I apologize for the quality of what and how I write, English is not my native language.

*Jak poznać Polaka piszącego po angielsku xD*