[Defensive Tactics] Talent Criticism

[Captain4k]

Defensive Tactics: While wearing a shield, you retain 180% of the increased threat generation from Defensive Stance in other stances.
<Developer Comment> The point of this talent is to allow tanks wearing shields to sacrifice mitigation for more threat by swapping in and out of Defensive Stance. With this buff to this talent, players should experience noticeably higher threat done, outside than inside Defensive Stance.

Am I the only one that thinks [Defensive Tactics] is conceptually flawed? Why do we have a talent in the deep protection tree that is incentivizing tanks to leave defensive stance? How does a talent that adds viability to other stances appeal to a sword and board playstyle? Wouldn't it make more sense to give warriors increased threat viability inside of defensive stance, as opposed to using the stance as a lesser version of Shield Wall? Buffing the [Improved Thunder Clap] talent by allowing it to hit more targets (up to 6 targets) and having the base ability scale with AP would have been a simpler solution to help warrior AoE threat. [Defensive Tactics] seems like a poorly thought out talent that should have been heavily revised before release, in my opinion. I think the talent either needs to be reworked or replaced entirely. In it's current state it's effectively just a waste of a talent tree slot.

Are there any seasoned warrior tanks that can explain how to accurately utilize [Defensive Tactics]? If I'm misunderstanding the usefulness of the talent then feel free to inform me.

[Xudo]

This talent allows you to exit def stance and spam execute when boss has less than 20% of hp.
It also allows you to go bers stance and spam Whirlwind.
Also it allows you to tank bosses with fears in bers stance without losing much threat and be able to press "Berserkers Rage" on demand.

[Ovaron]

This talent is poorly thought out as the last patches indicates. It has been slightly buffed but you need a PhD to actual get the correct threat value together.

They gave other tanks a "defensive stance" buff in mitigation and are trying to encourage warrior to leave the stance. Since you cant use revenge in other stances, maybe revenge was nerfed because of it?

I dont get the thinking behind this talent. Deep prot is still lacking to some extend and when you OT, switching the stance wont get you anywhere in threat even with this lackluster talent.
They should revamp this talent to something worthwhile. Something, that alows you to OT better. Better Ragegen while wearing a shield, attack speed while not getting hit or something.

No real tank likes this talent. Despite we all know how to stance dance if needed, this is a burden, not an improvement.

[Captain4k]

This talent is poorly thought out as the last patches indicates.

No real tank likes this talent. Despite we all know how to stance dance if needed, this is a burden, not an improvement.

This is my issue with the talent. There's always going to be throwaway talents that exist, but a talent that deep into the protection tree should be a borderline necessity to the specialization.

[Ellifta]

It's a very good talent that gives every warrior basically a reason to use any stance while tanking. In short summary, here are what each stance does if you invest 3 points into defensive tactics and 5 points in defiance. Battle stance is very similar to using deathwish or using dual wield from old fury/prot tanking in the sense that it gives you more threat but less mitigation.

Battle Stance:
+7-8% more threat gained per point of damage dealt compared to defensive stance, 10% more damage compared to defensive stance, which roughly ends up to 15-20% more threat overall
Ability to use overpower and execute, especially good if you use impale/prot spec.
No crit or crush immunity because you don't have shield block, 10% more damage taken compared to defensive stance.

This stance is good when you want to maximize threat, such as Vaelstratz or Maexna. Very satisfying to play with overpower, but because you only get 1 shield block every 4.5 seconds you are open to crits and crushing blows. With 370 defence in Naxx, in my experience this leads to 1 crit per boss fight and usually 4-5 crushing blows.

Defensive Stance:
The classic stance, crit and crush immunity if using shield block and shield slam on CD and 10% less damage taken. Good for bosses that deal a lot of damage and you want to give up some threat for mitigation like twin emps, Chromaggus or Patchwerk.

Berserker Stance: 3% more crit, 10% more damage taken but access to Whirlwind for AoE threat and fear immunity.

This talent is an excellent way to choose between more mitigation or more threat for deep prot tank without having them dual wield. You always stick to your shield.

[Captain4k]

This talent is an excellent way to choose between more mitigation or more threat for deep prot tank without having them dual wield. You always stick to your shield.

I understand the premise but the problem here is that leaving Def Stance with a shield on is more appealing to a PVP tank (which still wouldn't make sense to spec into because threat isn't required for PVP). A PVE warrior tank does not want to, and should not have to leave defensive stance in order to have viable threat. For a dual wield fury tank, sure, but not a sword and board tank. It goes against the fantasy appeal of the tank role, where mitigation is the most fundamental factor.

As I previously stated, why not just have [Defensive Tactics] (A deep >>PROTECTION<< talent) increase AoE threat viability within Def Stance? Since they already took a step in that direction by making Thunder Clap usable in Def Stance, why not expand that formula?

[Snigery]

It's a very good talent that gives every warrior basically a reason to use any stance while tanking.

I dont have a ton of experience but i get what others are explaining. Rather than adding something to the tree which OP wants this change utilizes what already exists to the class - stance switching - and caters it more toward this playstyle.

[sarausa]

I appreciate what you share in the post. Thanks to your post, I have gained a lot of new and useful knowledge.

[Bogyone]

I'll base on my prior experience as not really played since class changes..
I would see more practical to have spells from other stances usable in Defensive Stance instead of promoting same threat when leaving Def stance to cast these spells or abandoning Def stance buffs to generate same threat and take more damage? That's awkward.

[Herods]

This is the best talent in cc2...

Not you don't prior a PhD to understand the increase in threat, mathematically it increases 20% + 10% For not being on defensive

In practice, I increased about 80% of my threat by changing the build to get this and getting Enrage.

Honestly, I don't have any more problems to get aggro in the area, I only enter defensive stance to taunt... And as a matter of fantasy, you guys were for years tanking without a shield, in the obnoxious fury prot, and thanks to this talent, I was more of a threat than the war fury prot of my guild, and I play with a real tank