Final Changelog for Class Changes coming in 1.16.1

[Stenerjoe2]

Spell suggestion for disc tree / priest spell;

Inquisition

Uses the animation / visuals of chain heal, aka a light/yellow ray just like shadow priests have mind flay.

It works like mind flay, but it deals holy damage and does not slow the target; instead, it deals a bit less damage but heals party members including caster for 30% of the damage dealt. I’m a bit drunk while writing this but it would (imo) be a pretty cool fantasy / rotation spell for people leveling as smite / holy priests.

Another idea is Holyform, which would increase holy damage by 10/15% but you are unable to cast shadow spells whilst in This form. Holyform is a spell a few npcs have in the Sunwell patch in tbc, so feel free to google it. Thats my two cents - emmi

[Rytz]

Warrior in Vanilla is overpowered. Just straight up too powerful for the game.

Warrior as a whole is not. Certain specs are (Fury and Fury Prot). Arms and Protection Warrior are definitely NOT overpowered.

Let’s be frank - the only good thing a paladin can do in vanilla is heal. Sure, with the right setup you can do decent tanking or decent dps, but it still doesn’t all quite come together.

I agree with Hbl. Maybe TWOW developers forgot somewhere along the way that Paladin is supposed to be a hybrid class with some form of taxation involved. They are not supposed to be best at anything or on par with non-hybrid classes that have similar roles. "it still doesn’t all quite come together" because it's not supposed to: Paladin is a hybrid class. They shouldn't even be the best healer class.

If you're going to buff Paladin that much, then you need to spend more time on making Shaman viable as a tank and also make more improvements to Prot Warrior (and nerf fury and remove the fury prot meta).

If not, well, incoming massive increase in the already overpopulated Paladin population in 3..2..1..

[Zhohan]

I agree with Hbl. Maybe TWOW developers forgot somewhere along the way that Paladin is supposed to be a hybrid class with some form of taxation involved. They are not supposed to be best at anything or on par with non-hybrid classes that have similar roles. "it still doesn’t all quite come together" because it's not supposed to: Paladin is a hybrid class. They shouldn't even be the best healer class.

So for reference, paladin is the class I know best. I've spent many years with it. I'll tell you now, this will not be a massive buff to Retribution DPS. I'm also going to go out and say that these changes for paladin as a whole help it succeed as a hybrid class.

For starters, Judgement of the Crusader (JotC) will not stack with Crusader Strike (CS) debuff. JotC at max rank is extra holy damage UP TO 140. CS on the other hand, is 30*5=150 guaranteed extra holy damage on the target. But it takes time to stack the debuff. If you have a prot pally in your raid, this will lead to CS being the pally equivalent to Sunder Armor. CS's damage also does not scale with weapon or stats. It is a flat 103 Damage plus the 150 holy damage. That's 253 extra damage. It's also supposed to be mana-draining. The devs don't intend on this being spammed. Combine that with Holy Strike, and that's certainly an upgrade to 1.12 Ret Pally, but it's not that insane for PvE. And CS will likely not be that OP in PvP because it takes until 5 strikes for the damage to really hit. This does, however, make Judgement of the Crusader kinda useless, and devs have mentioned already that they plan on doing something with that ability.

Holy getting an upgrade to Holy Shock in addition to Sanctity Aura is wonderful. They are turning into a hybrid spec like they should be. I also stand by Improved Seal of Justice coming back as a talent (like it was in 1.1). I'm also happy to see it serve as a taunt. This really isn't too crazy. We've all been playing 1.12 for years. Why not just see where this goes, and provide feedback on the forums and Discord before quitting?

[Snowwolf]

There is server where you can build your character with any ability in the game. And everyone uses sinister strike wielding 2-hander, if my arguments don't convince you.

I don't :)
Speak for yourself. There will always be cookie cutter builds that people feel are best. There will always be abilities that feel stronger than others. It's basically unavoidable, shy of making everything identical, and even then, people will still have opinions about what's right and what's wrong.

(also last *I* knew, overpower's the one you see in most non-holy melee dps builds, not sinister strike. <3 )

This is giving people the chance to variate their play style, and that's not a bad thing.

And y'know what? if it's broken and these are bad changes... y'know.. they can adjust things? This is not a massive faceless blizzard seeking to please the masses and only make class changes once every 2 years ("Oops, I guess your spec just isn't viable this expansion!")

...This is a small group of people trying to make a pleasant game experience for all of us. They clearly have a love for world of warcraft or they wouldn't be here. So I'd presume that they're thinking really carefully about the changes they make and will be watching closely and listening to feedback, as opposed to cackling manically about how they tricked all of us into playing their game that they've worked on for three years and now they're going to RUIN it!

on which note.

They've never said that this is a pure vanilla server. They've never said this is a faithful recreation of WoW 1.12. They've made it extremely clear that they are creating a UNIQUE wow experience, and creating their own expansion based upon the lore as it was written in Warcraft 3. They'd never promised to never make changes, just that they had not, so far.

I'm excited for this! Turtle wow is already a great place with a lot of love put into it, I love the expanded world and I am delighted to know I will get the chance to explore new ways of playing on numerous classes, including some I'd actually given up playing.

[Velite]

I'd like to make a request, and IDK if other people would agree, but can we take a look at https://database.turtle-wow.org/?spell=22842 Frenzied Regeneration being a fixed amount of healing per rage point, instead of % based on total hp?

[Serener]

Please give rogues axes,a talent or just learnable,it makes sense

[Zhohan]

There is server where you can build your character with any ability in the game. And everyone uses sinister strike wielding 2-hander, if my arguments don't convince you.

I don't :)
Speak for yourself. There will always be cookie cutter builds that people feel are best. There will always be abilities that feel stronger than others. It's basically unavoidable, shy of making everything identical, and even then, people will still have opinions about what's right and what's wrong.

(also last *I* knew, overpower's the one you see in most non-holy melee dps builds, not sinister strike. <3 )

This is giving people the chance to variate their play style, and that's not a bad thing.

And y'know what? if it's broken and these are bad changes... y'know.. they can adjust things? This is not a massive faceless blizzard seeking to please the masses and only make class changes once every 2 years ("Oops, I guess your spec just isn't viable this expansion!")

...This is a small group of people trying to make a pleasant game experience for all of us. They clearly have a love for world of warcraft or they wouldn't be here. So I'd presume that they're thinking really carefully about the changes they make and will be watching closely and listening to feedback, as opposed to cackling manically about how they tricked all of us into playing their game that they've worked on for three years and now they're going to RUIN it!

on which note.

They've never said that this is a pure vanilla server. They've never said this is a faithful recreation of WoW 1.12. They've made it extremely clear that they are creating a UNIQUE wow experience, and creating their own expansion based upon the lore as it was written in Warcraft 3. They'd never promised to never make changes, just that they had not, so far.

I'm excited for this! Turtle wow is already a great place with a lot of love put into it, I love the expanded world and I am delighted to know I will get the chance to explore new ways of playing on numerous classes, including some I'd actually given up playing.

I'd like to clarify for both you and OP that Claw damage isn't actually going to scale with your equipped weapon. For example, Shred does 225% damage of the druid's paws, which count as a weapon while shapeshifted.

[Hbl]

if these drastic changes make it into the game i will be gone.
who ever asked for this or thinks it is a good idea to alter the game in such extent?

also, what is the devs obsession with pally dps? it almost looks like there is some childhood trauma going on which is tried to be fixed here....

I understand that there is a sanctity around 1.12 vanilla, but to be fair, these changes are the same jump from 1.1 to 1.12. It's really not that overboard, except for a few abilities (which I think are good inclusions). I understand how players are fearful of the server going overboard with changes, but I think these changes do fit with the vision that Blizzard was trying to make happen with vanilla WoW. TBC talents are much more overboard than these.

and that is why we dont play tbc, retail or some other custom ability servers.... because we mostly like the game at it is. minor changes and new stuff, all cool. changing the game itself is not

[Unangwata]

There is server where you can build your character with any ability in the game. And everyone uses sinister strike wielding 2-hander, if my arguments don't convince you.

I don't :)
Speak for yourself. There will always be cookie cutter builds that people feel are best. There will always be abilities that feel stronger than others. It's basically unavoidable, shy of making everything identical, and even then, people will still have opinions about what's right and what's wrong.

(also last *I* knew, overpower's the one you see in most non-holy melee dps builds, not sinister strike. <3 )

This is giving people the chance to variate their play style, and that's not a bad thing.

And y'know what? if it's broken and these are bad changes... y'know.. they can adjust things? This is not a massive faceless blizzard seeking to please the masses and only make class changes once every 2 years ("Oops, I guess your spec just isn't viable this expansion!")

...This is a small group of people trying to make a pleasant game experience for all of us. They clearly have a love for world of warcraft or they wouldn't be here. So I'd presume that they're thinking really carefully about the changes they make and will be watching closely and listening to feedback, as opposed to cackling manically about how they tricked all of us into playing their game that they've worked on for three years and now they're going to RUIN it!

on which note.

They've never said that this is a pure vanilla server. They've never said this is a faithful recreation of WoW 1.12. They've made it extremely clear that they are creating a UNIQUE wow experience, and creating their own expansion based upon the lore as it was written in Warcraft 3. They'd never promised to never make changes, just that they had not, so far.

I'm excited for this! Turtle wow is already a great place with a lot of love put into it, I love the expanded world and I am delighted to know I will get the chance to explore new ways of playing on numerous classes, including some I'd actually given up playing.

Man I speak for myself. I long ago thought of rogue wielding staff and how overpowered sinister strike would be. Then I hear of server where they allow to wield 2 handers with sinister strike. If you can't imagine how it works then you lack experience or vision. To me it's obvious. I just used it as example.

I played game too long and know mechanics that allow me to see outcome of even slightest changes. What happens here now is overkill. The whole charm of vanilla is that you have to struggle and work with what you have. If you make it easy and they give you everything you think you need, game just becomes too easy and boring. Look what happened in retail. There is reason behind why classic got popular but it seems you suffer from making the same mistakes again, like you never learn..

[Rytz]

So for reference, paladin is the class I know best. I've spent many years with it. I'll tell you now, this will not be a massive buff to Retribution DPS. I'm also going to go out and say that these changes for paladin as a whole help it succeed as a hybrid class.

Sorry, I was referring to their statement about the devs having Paladin childhood trauma. I don't think Ret specifically will be OP. Ret and Druid Cat both need a boost as a DPS. The problem with Paladin as a whole is that they have access to too much at any given time, regardless of spec and without penalty. At least Druid has some taxation with their shapeshifting. I've already broken down why Paladin is OP in my suggestions threads, so I'm not going to do it again here.

I'm also happy to see it serve as a taunt. This really isn't too crazy. We've all been playing 1.12 for years. Why not just see where this goes, and provide feedback on the forums and Discord before quitting?

With Paladins getting a taunt now (let's be real, who's not going to take a 100% taunt), what's left to separate them from Deep Prot Warrior? Shield-wall and an AoE taunt? Why not play a Prot Paladin when you can sub in as a makeshift healer with decent group buffs and extra boost to damage towards undead (looking at you scholo, strat, and Nax). You can't use gear optimization as an argument because that's end-game and not accessible to all players. Paladins should have never had access to plate armor as a hybrid class.

And I never said anything about quitting.

I actually support changes and improvements to the game but there are a lot of changes listed here and I can't help but wonder how much of this has been tested versus just ideas being thrown out. There seems to be a lot more attention to certain classes over others.

This doesn't strike me as "slow and steady".

[Unangwata]

Besides, why don't you, instead of making all those changes, just make Burning Crusade server. Obviously you are aiming for it... lol

[Velite]

With Paladins getting a taunt now (let's be real, who's not going to take a 100% taunt), what's left to separate them from Deep Prot Warrior? Shield-wall and an AoE taunt? Why not play a Prot Paladin when you can sub in as a makeshift healer with decent group buffs and extra boost to damage towards undead (looking at you scholo, strat, and Nax). You can't use gear optimization as an argument because that's end-game and not accessible to all players. Paladins should have never had access to plate armor as a hybrid class.

And I never said anything about quitting.

The paladin taunt is still inferior to warrior or druid because it will be on the GCD and require mana to use, a decent amount in fact. Taunt and Growl cost no rage and are off the GCD. Warrior is separated from all tanks due to taking 10% less damage period. Nobody else has that.

Ret paladin is actually sub-par damage to undead in naxx compared to the viable specs. They only excel at AOE Anti-undead which is extremely niche and it still on par to mages anyway, and has very little actual impact in naxx.

[Hbl]

how this server is catering to pallys is just ridiculous. sry, to be this frank, but there is just no other way to say this.

"i want to be a paladin someday" LOL soon everyone on your pally only server will.....

you might as well rename the server to: childhood trauma fixed, pally wow, yehaw!

[Rytz]

Warrior is separated from all tanks due to taking 10% less damage period. Nobody else has that.

A Protection Warrior can't heal themselves, either. Warriors are limited with rage similar to how paladins are limited with mana. As prot, warriors have to primarily take damage in order to get their "mana", so reduced damage makes sense.

I won't argue with you about how Paladin is overpowered in this thread. I've already done it in my suggestion thread.

[Velite]

how this server is catering to pallys is just ridiculous. sry, to be this frank, but there is just no other way to say this.

"i want to be a paladin someday" LOL soon everyone on your pally only server will.....

you might as well rename the server to: childhood trauma fixed, pally wow, yehaw!

Druid got the most out of this patch. And shadow priest too, one step to true viability closer.

Most of the paladin changes are just common sense adjustments, crusader strike not activating chance on hit effects means that it doesn't actually boost paladin dps by that much.

[Chlo]

Can't wait for the new feral stuff; really hope everything makes it to the new patch!

[Zhohan]

Man I speak for myself. I long ago thought of rogue wielding staff and how overpowered sinister strike would be. Then I hear of server where they allow to wield 2 handers with sinister strike. If you can't imagine how it works then you lack experience or vision. To me it's obvious. I just used it as example.

I clarified in a previous reply that you're confusing the change they made for druids. When shapeshifted, your shapeshift form counts as its own weapon, not your equipped weapon. Claw's 100% weapon damage is based on the shapeshifting form, not your equipped weapon. This won't be Ascension WoW with 2H SS spam. I've asked a lot of questions on the Discord to Moon and Dragun and they've clarified a lot.

[Zhohan]

I won't argue with you about how Paladin is overpowered in this thread. I've already done it in my suggestion thread.

Velite is Laughadin. He probably knows more about vanilla paladins than anyone playing on this server. This isn't nearly as big of an upgrade for Ret as people think it is.

[Unangwata]

Man I speak for myself. I long ago thought of rogue wielding staff and how overpowered sinister strike would be. Then I hear of server where they allow to wield 2 handers with sinister strike. If you can't imagine how it works then you lack experience or vision. To me it's obvious. I just used it as example.

I clarified in a previous reply that you're confusing the change they made for druids. When shapeshifted, your shapeshift form counts as its own weapon, not your equipped weapon. Claw's 100% weapon damage is based on the shapeshifting form, not your equipped weapon. This won't be Ascension WoW with 2H SS spam. I've asked a lot of questions on the Discord to Moon and Dragun and they've clarified a lot.

Well that's some sort of relief. But I don't like they change nature of some classes like paladin with taunt. Whole pleasure of tanking in vanilla is to make it work even with no taunt. The war on the other hand has no aoe and whole trick of tanking is to manage without it, now they give him Thunderclap in defensive stance. This looks more like TBC than vanilla.

[Rytz]

Velite is Laughadin. He probably knows more about vanilla paladins than anyone playing on this server. This isn't nearly as big of an upgrade for Ret as people think it is.

I already said that Ret and Druid Cat should get a DPS boost.

I know who Velite is. Was that statement supposed to be a flex or something? Doesn't change my opinion on Paladins at all. An end game-geared Paladin supporting boosts to his already overpowered hybrid class character? Shocking.

[Velite]

Well that's some sort of relief. But I don't like they change nature of some classes like paladin with taunt. Whole pleasure of tanking in vanilla is to make it work even with no taunt. The war on the other hand has no aoe and whole trick of tanking is to manage without it, now they give him Thunderclap in defensive stance. This looks more like TBC than vanilla.

Warrior can circumvent lack of aoe through engineering, paladin has no way to circumvent lack of taunt though.

[Hbl]

Well that's some sort of relief. But I don't like they change nature of some classes like paladin with taunt. Whole pleasure of tanking in vanilla is to make it work even with no taunt. The war on the other hand has no aoe and whole trick of tanking is to manage without it, now they give him Thunderclap in defensive stance. This looks more like TBC than vanilla.

Warrior can circumvent lack of aoe through engineering, paladin has no way to circumvent lack of taunt though.

did you ever think of the possibility that this is intended (well proven) game desighn?

[Velite]

Well that's some sort of relief. But I don't like they change nature of some classes like paladin with taunt. Whole pleasure of tanking in vanilla is to make it work even with no taunt. The war on the other hand has no aoe and whole trick of tanking is to manage without it, now they give him Thunderclap in defensive stance. This looks more like TBC than vanilla.

Warrior can circumvent lack of aoe through engineering, paladin has no way to circumvent lack of taunt though.

did you ever think of the possibility that this is intended (well proven) game desighn?

It was not intended for paladins to not have a taunt in vanilla. It was a result of the Blizzard devs thinking a tank that could heal and spam taunt would be overpowered. Even though this is not true, you would not be able to heal yourself while tanking a boss in vanilla. Which is why they added the taunt in TBC. The TBC design thus is "intended (well proven) game design". At the very least, I don't think it was intentional for Protection paladin to be SO BAD in vanilla that nobody would allow you to tank in raids.

[Rytz]

It was not intended for paladins to not have a taunt in vanilla. It was a result of the Blizzard devs thinking a tank that could heal and spam taunt would be overpowered. Even though this is not true, you would not be able to heal yourself while tanking a boss in vanilla.

Since you think that being able to wear plate, buff, heal, res, taunt, have good utility and boosted damage to undead is not overpowered, please explain where the "hybrid tax" would be after giving Paladins taunt?

[Velite]

It was not intended for paladins to not have a taunt in vanilla. It was a result of the Blizzard devs thinking a tank that could heal and spam taunt would be overpowered. Even though this is not true, you would not be able to heal yourself while tanking a boss in vanilla.

Since you think that being able to wear plate, buff, heal, res, taunt, have good utility and boosted damage to undead is not overpowered, please explain where the "hybrid tax" would be in this scenario?

All of the things you listed, paladin is already inferior to doing compared to other classes. Paladins do not have an aoe heal even, nor hots. The boosted damage to undead is still less damage than what other classes do. We went over that before. All classes provide buffs and utility as well. Remember, paladins are constrained by mana, of which they are not good at regenerating, and silence mechanics which block out the entire kit.

Vanilla has established that the ability to do multiple things poorly does not equate to a good class. Otherwise, we wouldn't have this discussion of underpowered specs being underpowered. In fact, as you claim, we'd see balance druids and shaman tanks at A tier since they have such a varied kit.

Clearly we do not see 30 ret paladin raids being the Meta or Speedrun Composition in Naxx, which would be the case if Paladins were the best damage dealers to undead.

[Nerasw]

Warrior in Vanilla is overpowered. Just straight up too powerful for the game.

Warrior as a whole is not. Certain specs are (Fury and Fury Prot). Arms and Protection Warrior are definitely NOT overpowered.

Let’s be frank - the only good thing a paladin can do in vanilla is heal. Sure, with the right setup you can do decent tanking or decent dps, but it still doesn’t all quite come together.

I agree with Hbl. Maybe TWOW developers forgot somewhere along the way that Paladin is supposed to be a hybrid class with some form of taxation involved. They are not supposed to be best at anything or on par with non-hybrid classes that have similar roles. "it still doesn’t all quite come together" because it's not supposed to: Paladin is a hybrid class. They shouldn't even be the best healer class.

If you're going to buff Paladin that much, then you need to spend more time on making Shaman viable as a tank and also make more improvements to Prot Warrior (and nerf fury and remove the fury prot meta).

If not, well, incoming massive increase in the already overpopulated Paladin population in 3..2..1..

who said pally gona be top dps, all changes just makes prot better
BTW tweaks r good

[Nerasw]

if these drastic changes make it into the game i will be gone.
who ever asked for this or thinks it is a good idea to alter the game in such extent?

also, what is the devs obsession with pally dps? it almost looks like there is some childhood trauma going on which is tried to be fixed here....

I understand that there is a sanctity around 1.12 vanilla, but to be fair, these changes are the same jump from 1.1 to 1.12. It's really not that overboard, except for a few abilities (which I think are good inclusions). I understand how players are fearful of the server going overboard with changes, but I think these changes do fit with the vision that Blizzard was trying to make happen with vanilla WoW. TBC talents are much more overboard than these.

and that is why we dont play tbc, retail or some other custom ability servers.... because we mostly like the game at it is. minor changes and new stuff, all cool. changing the game itself is not

ye lets roll 30 warriors every raid how cool...

[Nerasw]

how this server is catering to pallys is just ridiculous. sry, to be this frank, but there is just no other way to say this.

"i want to be a paladin someday" LOL soon everyone on your pally only server will.....

you might as well rename the server to: childhood trauma fixed, pally wow, yehaw!

ok then doctor should kill traumatized child instead of curing it, right
and firefighters need to set cities on fire
and devs should BUFF WARRIORS more
and nerf paladins cuz 1 man lost duel to pally long ago

[Suwuxiv]

Fantastic changes! I personally am really hyped for this upcoming patch now and am hopeful these make it in.

[Rytz]

All of the things you listed, paladin is already inferior to doing compared to other classes. Paladins do not have an aoe heal even, nor hots.

Wrong. Holy Paladins are arguably the best single target healers in vanilla.

All classes provide buffs and utility as well.

Are you trying to make an argument about how Battle Shout is a comparable buff to what Paladins offer in terms of buffs? If so, that's laughable. And what is this warrior utility that you speak of other than tanking or DPS (based on spec and mutually exclusive)? It still blows my mind that you tried to say warriors are a "soft" hybrid class in the suggestion thread.

Remember, paladins are constrained by mana, of which they are not good at regenerating, and silence mechanics which block out the entire kit.

Yes, and Warrior core abilities (including taunts) are also affected by silence, which is addressed in one of my suggestion threads. The only advantage rage gives prot warriors is longevity but we are still restricted by needed rage for abilities. There are plenty of bosses that are immune to taunt as well.

Vanilla has established that the ability to do multiple things poorly does not equate to a good class. Otherwise, we wouldn't have this discussion of underpowered specs being underpowered. In fact, as you claim, we'd see balance druids and shaman tanks at A tier since they have such a varied kit.

Clearly we do not see 30 ret paladin raids being the Meta or Speedrun Composition in Naxx, which would be the case if Paladins were the best damage dealers to undead.

I can't speak for Holy Paladins but I already said Ret needs a DPS boost. I consider Paladins not having a taunt as one of drawbacks of being a hybrid tank. Otherwise, they are more-or-less Deep Prot Warriors without an AoE taunt and Shield Wall and added hybrid class utility benefits.

You didn't really answer my question about the hybrid tax but that's alright. You obviously believe that with all the utility and flexibility that Paladins can provide at any given time (regardless of spec), that giving them a hard 100% taunt will not be overpowered and not bring them too close to being in-line with Deep Prot.

Don't take my word for it, just look at how many prot paladins there are in TBC classic when compared to warrior tanks. Two ferals and a paladin tank is the go-to for raids and Paladins are usually the go-to for dungeons because of their AoE threat generation and utility.

[Velite]

[

Don't take my word for it, just look at how many prot paladins there are in TBC classic when compared to warrior tanks. Two ferals and a paladin tank is the go-to for raids and Paladins are usually the go-to for dungeons because of their AoE threat generation and utility.

First of all, Druids have a taunt. So there goes the hybrid tank tax, it is not consistent.

Second of all, Prot paladins being the norm in TBC is the result of ALL of the changes they got in 2.4. NOT 2.0. Along with all the years of minmaxing behind it.

We do not even have a fraction of the buffs that TBC provides.

TBC provides paladins with -6% damage taken and -10% damage taken from spells, 8% mana return from effective heals, an entire lineup of tier gear that they do not have in vanilla. And, on top of that, all of the raids allow the usage of the entire prot paladin kit.

Warriors have a spammable, non-mana cost aoe slow. Warriors are the only class to provide a consistent melee attack speed slow and provide the highest AoE attack power reduction. Warriors also have Last stand as a very cheap investment in protection and the best lineup of tier gear in vanilla. Warriors provide a tremendous amount of utility to a vanilla raid by their kit.

The only time a raid would not welcome an additional warrior is strictly if they require more healers.

[Velite]

Also, Taunt and Challenging shout are the only abilities blocked by silence that warriors have. Not Shield Block, Sunder Armor, Shield Slam, Hamstring... etc. Paladins do have these abilities blocked though. You can't use holy shield when silenced.

If protection paladins were so great already, why are we having this discussion? Why are so many people convinced, rightfully so, that regardless of how much the kit this spec has, it is still not a good fit for vanilla raiding?

I'd honestly wish that all of what you say is true and that paladins are so great and they have no flaws and don't need any improvements. But unless you know something I don't, I don't see how this can be true.

I can also tell you right now, it's not that paladins can taunt in TBC that makes them equal to warriors. It's many other things, including changes to raid design as well. And changes to warriors too. All of that stuff is not in vanilla, the precious prestige of the warrior MT is not compromised as a result of these changes.

I am not suddenly going to turn down a tier 3 warrior for an aq40 geared paladin (which is their bis) to main tank in naxx as a result of these changes.

I've mained a warrior for as long as I've mained a paladin to tell you paladin is not even close, with these changes, to being a tank comparable to warrior as Main Tank.

[Qixel]

So I definitely wish I took the time to post this during the raid earlier before the thread got flooded with whining, but I just want to say thank you to the devs. I know we don't always agree with what's a good idea or not, but I know how much work you guys have been putting into it. Not just with improving the gameplay for classes that got shafted by being ignored by Blizzard until TBC, but all of the upcoming patch. For instance, I helped test Black Morass over two years ago, and seeing it come to fruition makes me glad for you. All of you have put your time and passion into making these changes, and I am very grateful. Thank you very much especially to Torta and Pompa for keeping this silly little server going this long. From 15 people peaks when I joined to new dungeons and class upgrades, it's come a long way. After seeing some of the other posts, I just want you all to know that you're appreciated, and I believe most people are excited about the class changes. People who are satisfied about things are just less likely to post on forums about them; it's just human nature.

On a personal level, none of these changes really affect me, given my current main, but I'm glad to see a lot of the issues other people were having being addressed. From paladins lacking taunt to prot warriors not being able to thunderclap in defensive stance, and not at all least of all hunter pets getting avoidance (gotta keep Chomper safe!) I'm ecstatic to see so many things being improved. <3

So, truly, thank you for the work you guys put in.
Yours,
Engie, Rat, whatever
One of the 15 Peaks

[Moon]

Thank you to all the people who have provided feedback and for your kind (and constructive) messages, I really do appreciate that a lot.

I want to just offer my cents on the argument for why Paladin should not receive a taunt: Paladin is not a finished class in vanilla, as is the case with all of the hybrid classes in vanilla. In addition to that, taunt is only *required* in a handful of fights and adding this talent does not add the functionality for when it is needed. It's not a free taunt (3 point talent investment, plus the mana cost of the seal, judgement, and reseal), it's not a taunt every Paladin will have, and it comes with the tradeoff that the Paladin is not keeping their other judgements up.

It was difficult to come up with a solution that 1) kept the spirit of the original design intent of the class (easy to play), of hybrids (but you can't do everything perfectly), and of vanilla (not 100% streamlined) while also using the existing Seal/Judge system which is in itself underdeveloped in vanilla. I personally do not feel that adding it in this manner is somehow homogenizing the classes as, again, the specific mechanic is not even an option in most raid encounters.

Thank you all, again.

[Rytz]

First of all, Druids have a taunt. So there goes the hybrid tank tax, it is not consistent.

IMO, bear tanks are slightly OP as well. They at least have a tax in place known as shapeshifting which restricts their other-form abilities. Still a lot of good utility available for Druids considering how well they tank.

Warriors have a spammable, non-mana cost aoe slow. Warriors are the only class to provide a consistent melee attack speed slow and provide the highest AoE attack power reduction. Warriors also have Last stand as a very cheap investment in protection and the best lineup of tier gear in vanilla. Warriors provide a tremendous amount of utility to a vanilla raid by their kit.

You and I seem to have a different opinion on what "utility" means. And "Tremendous" is not the word I would use to describe your idea of warrior utility.

When I talk about utility, I'm referring to all the things that paladins can do regardless of spec. Healing, resurrections, group buffs, bubbles, and other cooldowns. A Deep Prot Warrior can't just swap roles all the sudden and do mediocre DPS (or even PvP for that matter).

Aforementioned warrior utility that you detail above is specific to combat (and respective monsters) and provides no benefit outside of combat. Battle shout is the only buff I can think of that stays outside of combat and is not specific to monsters. The slow from thunderclap is often useless (resisted) in raids. Last Stand is okay but not amazing (and requires being speced into it). Demo shout does not stack so you only need one per set of mobs.

Sorry, but I don't see the Warrior abilities you mention as utility. I see them as combat-based abilities that are part of the class identify.

Also, Taunt and Challenging shout are the only abilities blocked by silence that warriors have. Not Shield Block, Sunder Armor, Shield Slam, Hamstring... etc. Paladins do have these abilities blocked though. You can't use holy shield when silenced.

Wrong. You forgot Thunderclap, Battle Shout, Demo Shout, and Bloodrage. I can't remember if Berserker Rage is silenced or not.

If protection paladins were so great already, why are we having this discussion? Why are so many people convinced, rightfully so, that regardless of how much the kit this spec has, it is still not a good fit for vanilla raiding?

How many people are objective enough to say if their own class that they love is overpowered? And even care enough to post about it on discord or on the forums? And if Paladins happen to be the most played class on the server, I would say that even a poll would be too biased.

I'd honestly wish that all of what you say is true and that paladins are so great and they have no flaws and don't need any improvements. But unless you know something I don't, I don't see how this can be true.

I can also tell you right now, it's not that paladins can taunt in TBC that makes them equal to warriors. It's many other things, including changes to raid design as well. And changes to warriors too. All of that stuff is not in vanilla, the precious prestige of the warrior MT is not compromised as a result of these changes.

I am not suddenly going to turn down a tier 3 warrior for an aq40 geared paladin (which is their bis) to main tank in naxx as a result of these changes.

I've mained a warrior for as long as I've mained a paladin to tell you paladin is not even close, with these changes, to being a tank comparable to warrior as Main Tank.

It's fine. Opinions are like assholes - everyone has one. Especially when it comes to WoW and class design.

I'll just end my argument by saying that if Paladins are going to get a taunt, then Protection Warrior needs to be buffed (fury/fury prot need a nerf) and Shaman needs a revamp to make tanking more viable for raids.