Paladin Retune When??

[Forumdweller]

No the only solution is to give everyone hard stuns, actual controlled stuns not this rng-garbage proc chance whatever destro or firemage has which is nice when the stars align but when it doesnt..well..too bad

Deep freeze, shadowfury, so on.

These things ignore poly/seduce mechanics with sacrifice, ignore slow/root/shatter mechanics with freedom , ignore drain mechanics with 100 mana cleanse the list goes on and on and the fact that they make up usually 60-80% of an alliance team every day. Fuq it just make freedom give you immunity to stuns too so they have their bases covered(oh wait it does give them blanket immunity to hunter conc shot stun)

hunter+paladin...hmmm poly paladin focus hunter? jk sacriice. so only solution is to poly hunter and nuke paladin..jk bubble. Do you not see anything wrong here there is completely 0 counterplay to this class and if they do feel outmatched they can just run inside a building where you HAVE TO face them headon in close quarters and you obviously cant take their damage

Also their damage is now not holy its mostly physical read up logs , the only class which can do good vs them is tank spec'd shaman since they have 60-70% physical dr...everyone else just crumbles

Another solution is to reduce stamina on paladin gear, bumping them down t o 2.5k-3k hp unbuffed is a good start. Ashbringer is good example of this, most paladin weapons need to have -stamina on them to match the paladin powerlevel

dude this is a really strange hill to die on

like you do realize that every class has their own win conditions right? giving everyone the same thing isn't going to solve it? as a mage u just poly the pala when he freedoms and reset the fight from 40 yards..., for 10 seconds he has no freedom and u spam slows on him while he ooms himself with clenase and cant heal because hes using gcd's and mana e and desperately trying to close the distance to u so he isnt useless. its starting to come off as trolling as this point.

u arent forced to go into an enclosed space with him just nuke him down when he has no HOJ then reset the fight after he bubbles and hardcast missiles in his face while he stands there being unable to kick you.

complaining about paladin vs hunter is weird af as well hunter shits on most classes 1v1 except dot classes... u can kite and reset fight infinitely while u drain people dry with viper stings (yes having to cleanse also makes him oom while ur pet fucks him..

[Springboards]

you are not going to oom a paladin when vipersting is stuck in its phase 0 230 mana drain and costs 215 mana while cleanse costs 130 at most(8% base) and then if you do sic your pet on him he just whacks it in 2-3 hits

Freedom is a 20 second cd 16 second uptime, there is no chance you are going to get much ground in the 4 duration.
real quesiton, do you guys even fight paladins ???

[Laysson]

Ill give you a better one as every example given to debunk myth of OP paladin is countered with such a fringe or disengenious argument that it starts to look like talking to a wall.
All of you who argue that paladin is OP, i have a question for you: how would you rebalance paladin then?
As we mostly refer to Ret in pvp, tell me how would you rebalance Ret to not be, as you say, "OP/Powerful".

- Add a CD to Cleanse like 6 or even 8 sec. : spammable 1 button to dispel 3 effects (that ruins all classes expect Warrior) is just too much, but make it guaranteed to dispel
- As a compensation, give them some mobility, like Long Arm of the Law from Cata

- Increase Freedom CD

- Eye for an Eye to 15% : 30% passive damage is just absurd

[Forumdweller]

you are not going to oom a paladin when vipersting is stuck in its phase 0 230 mana drain and costs 215 mana while cleanse costs 130 at most(8% base) and then if you do sic your pet on him he just whacks it in 2-3 hits

Freedom is a 20 second cd 16 second uptime, there is no chance you are going to get much ground in the 4 duration.
real quesiton, do you guys even fight paladins ???

freedom is 10 sec unless they changed it, and it still wouldnt matter because ur slows and poly has 0 sec CD and you have spammable mana shield.

pala should NEVER catch u on hunter unless ur kiting wrong

[Springboards]

kiting what do you think bgs are an open ground like the barrens with 0 line of sight? a full BM hunter or scatter/bm stun hunter is 1 of the better to tackle a paladin but its playing a drain game , relying on cheese 5s-resummoning your pet just to chip at him

while paladin just comes in and whacks you for 2k-3k dmg

[Werefox]

Survival hunter cant use aspect of the cheetah

So, you know nothing about hunters either. Figures.

hunter+paladin...

Of course, we have to appreciate the chutzpah of mages that come here to whine about not having a guaranteed win in 1v2 situation - and yet it is other classes that are op!

[Forumdweller]

well hunter is an open world class with range dependancy on his entire kit... yea hes gonna perform best in an open field

[Forumdweller]

ppl on this server have no idea how to play their class im telling u

if they actually understood how to do anything other than just max damage pve rotations things would be ALOOOOOOT worse than they are right now. every pepega hunter pops immo trap on u instead of doing 3k dmg in 1 global then ice trapping u a month into the future for another 3k raptor strike

u should be counting your lucky stars that things are this easy because if they had actual brain cells my god the forums would be on fire

[Springboards]

still all i see is useless theorycraft. question still stands do you fight paladins???

[Agentsmith]

you are not going to oom a paladin when vipersting is stuck in its phase 0 230 mana drain and costs 215 mana while cleanse costs 130 at most(8% base) and then if you do sic your pet on him he just whacks it in 2-3 hits

Freedom is a 20 second cd 16 second uptime, there is no chance you are going to get much ground in the 4 duration.
real quesiton, do you guys even fight paladins ???

freedom is 10 sec unless they changed it, and it still wouldnt matter because ur slows and poly has 0 sec CD and you have spammable mana shield.

pala should NEVER catch u on hunter unless ur kiting wrong

Freedom is 10s unless you are specd into the prot tree. It increases duration to 16s. So what he said is true but most rets dont spec prot sub tree cause they lose out on sanctity aura.

[Forumdweller]

still all i see is useless theorycraft. question still stands do you fight paladins???

"useless theorycraft" ok... :D

stop with your sarcastic questions

half of your spells dont even have keybinds ffs you have no right to complain about class balance

[Springboards]

mate a survival hunter will just about never close in on anyone unless got a free action pot or invis pot running. Do i die to them 3v1? sure. 1v1? not a chance

[Forumdweller]

mate a survival hunter will just about never close in on anyone unless got a free action pot or invis pot running. Do i die to them 3v1? sure. 1v1? not a chance

yes as a caster obviously survival hunters are easy

but vs plate where raptor strike does more dmg than a warrior that actually specializes in weapons? then does magic damage with immo trap ontop of it? actually lmao

idk why people are so obsessed with calling 1 thing OP and another terrible when the reality is that pretty much everything is OP in one or two scenarios

it shouldnt be like this tho, its lazy design, consideration for pvp is minimal. u can make 1 thing different without affecting balance but still making things fair for 1v1 it just requires creative solutions

literally just making holy dmg not ignore armor would do wonders for the health of the game. that would give warriors a passive 40% damage reduction against them while not affecting casters at all who can easily dominate survival hunters & ret palas

[Vidnar]

I asked for some rebalance ideas.
All i got was bunch of thinnely hidden nerfs.
At this point i should start to think most of you just want paladin deleted from the game cause its takes a very special kind of hate to equal straight up nerfs with rebalance.
CDs on cleanse, Holy Damage being reduced by armor, what next? Divine Shield castable only at 90% HP? Melee Range LoH? Talented BoP?

[Voodoochile]

Almost every paladin skill has a cost atached to it. So, i ask, how are they suppose to be broken?
Broken as in they all over the place and completely undefined as a class? Yes, i aggree
Broken as in Over Powered due to few select skills? By that logic, other classes are far more OP.

I just said that Paladin is broken whether they are strong or weak. The abilities I listed are all abilities that literally remove interaction within the game, and not in the "Oh I'm cc'd for 10 years and I dont have a cc cleanse" kinda way, but in a "Oh, he pressed 1 button and now I just have to stand here or fuck off until it wears off", and an "Oh, this was actually a really cool pve mechanic that was involved and required the coordination of the raid, but Paladins literally just press 1-2 buttons and the entire raid mechanic might as well not even fucking exist"

And because they have cost it means it's not broken? Since yall like to hit what-aboutism so much, is it ok that a caster can 1 shot you every 3 mins? I mean, it COSTS him a 3 minute cd. Just fight him when he doesnt have his cd 5head. Is it OK that a fresh 60 Shaman with a blue mace can still kill a Naxx geared player? I mean, it cost him mana to put WF on, and it cost him a 6 sec cd to Shock you, no?

And this is all beside the fact that you cant even get Holy Damage resistance or that they can heal someone for their own entire health bar, or that they are ACTUALLY OP on this server.

[Vidnar]

Almost every paladin skill has a cost atached to it. So, i ask, how are they suppose to be broken?
Broken as in they all over the place and completely undefined as a class? Yes, i aggree
Broken as in Over Powered due to few select skills? By that logic, other classes are far more OP.

I just said that Paladin is broken whether they are strong or weak. The abilities I listed are all abilities that literally remove interaction within the game, and not in the "Oh I'm cc'd for 10 years and I dont have a cc cleanse" kinda way, but in a "Oh, he pressed 1 button and now I just have to stand here or fuck off until it wears off", and an "Oh, this was actually a really cool pve mechanic that was involved and required the coordination of the raid, but Paladins literally just press 1-2 buttons and the entire raid mechanic might as well not even fucking exist"

And because they have cost it means it's not broken? Since yall like to hit what-aboutism so much, is it ok that a caster can 1 shot you every 3 mins? I mean, it COSTS him a 3 minute cd. Just fight him when he doesnt have his cd 5head. Is it OK that a fresh 60 Shaman with a blue mace can still kill a Naxx geared player? I mean, it cost him mana to put WF on, and it cost him a 6 sec cd to Shock you, no?

And this is all beside the fact that you cant even get Holy Damage resistance or that they can heal someone for their own entire health bar, or that they are ACTUALLY OP on this server.

And heres the proof you argue with bad faith, ignoring everything that was said before.
I advise to go play that OP class, get some decent gear on lvl 60 and then come back and try to defend your own words again.

[Skullcat]

- Add a CD to Cleanse like 6 or even 8 sec. : spammable 1 button to dispel 3 effects (that ruins all classes except Warrior) is just too much, but make it guaranteed to dispel
- As a compensation, give them some mobility, like Long Arm of the Law from Cata

- Increase Freedom CD

- Eye for an Eye to 15% : 30% passive damage is just absurd

Hand of Freedom retrieving an increased cooldown will be extremely brutal for Paladins. Considering they are dependent on not getting slowed. The moment the Paladin receives a hamstring, Piercing Howl, concussive shot, Stonebind totem'd, Frostbolted, Frost Nova'd, Cone of Cold, Entangling rooted, Curse of Exhaustion, Mind Flay (This is a channel), and even Rogue's Crippling Poison (This can be cleansed.)

They are going to struggle catching up.

In addition, Shamans, Warlock's Felhunter and Priests can purge Hand of Freedom.

Paladin is perhaps the only class that doesn't have much crowd-control outside of repentance (Which is a heavy RET investment) and Hammer of Justice. And then there's the Seal of Justice. Seal of Justice is a Proc% to stun a target for 2 seconds. So not only do you have two on-demands stun, you also have a gambling seal. And nobody of reasonable sort wants to bet on possibilities during a PVP confrontation. Hence Engineering.

---

Adding CD to Cleanse is like a redundancy;

The Paladin has to expend 8% of his mana to cleanse the debuff. And everytime you keep reapplying that debuff. The paladin has to cleanse again. And again. If you cast debuff on him and they cleansed 10 times. That means 80% of their mana are pretty much gone.

Whereas if you just add a cooldown. You're achieving pretty much the same result.

Also you forgot to add the fact that Warlock's curses cannot be cleansed. It's a curse, not magic.

---

Eye for Eye is more or less to give pity to Paladins who struggle catching mages and warlocks. Since mages can kite Paladins easily if they're not stupid. And Warlock has fears and Curse of Exhaustion (And w/ Felhunter, can purge Hand of Freedom to re-apply Curse of Exhaustion). Well -

It's a pity talent basically. "Oh you're getting critted by a caster that you can't catch? Well here. If they crit you, they take 15%-30% damage backlash."

Ok we got a lot of newcomers in this thread like skullcat(Joined: 04 May 2025 01:27) who have no idea what they are talking about while we have been fighting these things for the past 3 years if not more.

Nice ragebait.

This video is an interesting one.

This Paladin is a Holy Paladin. A Shockadin build in process. At that level, they have access to Holy Shock. The hunter opens engagement with a very well-placed usage of an ice trap. You can tell this Hunter is very good at engaging multiple open-world PvP. In addition, Paladin switches to healing to keep Hunter alive from the Shaman's last resort.

Notice that I said last resort?

This video is grossly egregious yet deceptive.

During the video, you can see the Shaman and Druid pursuing two runaways. Attempting to finish them off. When you see their mana, they were very close to OOMing. As such, it's not surprising that a level 51 hunter and paladin were able to defeat two level 60s that weren't at their best. On top of that, they were caught off-guard by sudden introduction of the Hunter and Paladin.

[Voodoochile]

Almost every paladin skill has a cost atached to it. So, i ask, how are they suppose to be broken?
Broken as in they all over the place and completely undefined as a class? Yes, i aggree
Broken as in Over Powered due to few select skills? By that logic, other classes are far more OP.

I just said that Paladin is broken whether they are strong or weak. The abilities I listed are all abilities that literally remove interaction within the game, and not in the "Oh I'm cc'd for 10 years and I dont have a cc cleanse" kinda way, but in a "Oh, he pressed 1 button and now I just have to stand here or fuck off until it wears off", and an "Oh, this was actually a really cool pve mechanic that was involved and required the coordination of the raid, but Paladins literally just press 1-2 buttons and the entire raid mechanic might as well not even fucking exist"

And because they have cost it means it's not broken? Since yall like to hit what-aboutism so much, is it ok that a caster can 1 shot you every 3 mins? I mean, it COSTS him a 3 minute cd. Just fight him when he doesnt have his cd 5head. Is it OK that a fresh 60 Shaman with a blue mace can still kill a Naxx geared player? I mean, it cost him mana to put WF on, and it cost him a 6 sec cd to Shock you, no?

And this is all beside the fact that you cant even get Holy Damage resistance or that they can heal someone for their own entire health bar, or that they are ACTUALLY OP on this server.

And heres the proof you argue with bad faith, ignoring everything that was said before.
I advise to go play that OP class, get some decent gear on lvl 60 and then come back and try to defend your own words again.

I have played atleast 3 different paladins to 60 and then 70 since 2019. I do not need to play Turtle Wow's version to see that those same broken elements are still there. You keep equating "broken" with "OP" but they are not the same thing. "Broken" means that something is either impossible, or near impossible to balance. Something that is broken can only exist in a state of Over or Under Power due to some aspect of their kit that is so individually strong that they cannot stand equal to another class because of it. As long as Paladins have not one, not two, not three, but FOUR separate forms of interaction removal, they will remain broken.

[Forumdweller]

I just said that Paladin is broken whether they are strong or weak. The abilities I listed are all abilities that literally remove interaction within the game, and not in the "Oh I'm cc'd for 10 years and I dont have a cc cleanse" kinda way, but in a "Oh, he pressed 1 button and now I just have to stand here or fuck off until it wears off", and an "Oh, this was actually a really cool pve mechanic that was involved and required the coordination of the raid, but Paladins literally just press 1-2 buttons and the entire raid mechanic might as well not even fucking exist"

And because they have cost it means it's not broken? Since yall like to hit what-aboutism so much, is it ok that a caster can 1 shot you every 3 mins? I mean, it COSTS him a 3 minute cd. Just fight him when he doesnt have his cd 5head. Is it OK that a fresh 60 Shaman with a blue mace can still kill a Naxx geared player? I mean, it cost him mana to put WF on, and it cost him a 6 sec cd to Shock you, no?

And this is all beside the fact that you cant even get Holy Damage resistance or that they can heal someone for their own entire health bar, or that they are ACTUALLY OP on this server.

And heres the proof you argue with bad faith, ignoring everything that was said before.
I advise to go play that OP class, get some decent gear on lvl 60 and then come back and try to defend your own words again.

I have played atleast 3 different paladins to 60 and then 70 since 2019. I do not need to play Turtle Wow's version to see that those same broken elements are still there. You keep equating "broken" with "OP" but they are not the same thing. "Broken" means that something is either impossible, or near impossible to balance. Something that is broken can only exist in a state of Over or Under Power due to some aspect of their kit that is so individually strong that they cannot stand equal to another class because of it. As long as Paladins have not one, not two, not three, but FOUR separate forms of interaction removal, they will remain broken.

Silly take.

"Interaction removal" is something that virtually every class has
it's just how it looks thats different i.e flavour

mages can "interaction remove" with poly
rogues can blind
druids can root or heal

etc etc

youre just choosing this one class to pick on because you dont know how to abuse them as an easily abusable class
or youre playing into them and being countered which totally exists and in that case frustration is understandable but demanding the mechanics just get flat out removed is silly when they need it to function

[Voodoochile]

"Interaction removal" is something that virtually every class has
it's just how it looks thats different i.e flavour

mages can "interaction remove" with poly
rogues can blind
druids can root or heal

etc etc

youre just choosing this one class to pick on because you dont know how to abuse them as an easily abusable class
or youre playing into them and being countered which totally exists and in that case frustration is understandable but demanding the mechanics just get flat out removed is silly when they need it to function

All of those you listed are cleansable and/or have small impact in raid content.

This was why I didnt mention that Paladins will stun you until the fucking cows come home or that they can be immune to slows because you can still interact with these things.

[Forumdweller]

"Interaction removal" is something that virtually every class has
it's just how it looks thats different i.e flavour

mages can "interaction remove" with poly
rogues can blind
druids can root or heal

etc etc

youre just choosing this one class to pick on because you dont know how to abuse them as an easily abusable class
or youre playing into them and being countered which totally exists and in that case frustration is understandable but demanding the mechanics just get flat out removed is silly when they need it to function

All of those you listed are cleansable and/or have small impact in raid content.

This was why I didnt mention that Paladins will stun you until the fucking cows come home or that they can be immune to slows because you can still interact with these things.

Wut? HoJ, Rep, Freedom, BoP can't be dispelled?

[Forumdweller]

- Add a CD to Cleanse like 6 or even 8 sec. : spammable 1 button to dispel 3 effects (that ruins all classes except Warrior) is just too much, but make it guaranteed to dispel
- As a compensation, give them some mobility, like Long Arm of the Law from Cata

- Increase Freedom CD

- Eye for an Eye to 15% : 30% passive damage is just absurd

Hand of Freedom retrieving an increased cooldown will be extremely brutal for Paladins. Considering they are dependent on not getting slowed. The moment the Paladin receives a hamstring, Piercing Howl, concussive shot, Stonebind totem'd, Frostbolted, Frost Nova'd, Cone of Cold, Entangling rooted, Curse of Exhaustion, Mind Flay (This is a channel), and even Rogue's Crippling Poison (This can be cleansed.)

They are going to struggle catching up.

In addition, Shamans, Warlock's Felhunter and Priests can purge Hand of Freedom.

Paladin is perhaps the only class that doesn't have much crowd-control outside of repentance (Which is a heavy RET investment) and Hammer of Justice. And then there's the Seal of Justice. Seal of Justice is a Proc% to stun a target for 2 seconds. So not only do you have two on-demands stun, you also have a gambling seal. And nobody of reasonable sort wants to bet on possibilities during a PVP confrontation. Hence Engineering.

---

Adding CD to Cleanse is like a redundancy;

The Paladin has to expend 8% of his mana to cleanse the debuff. And everytime you keep reapplying that debuff. The paladin has to cleanse again. And again. If you cast debuff on him and they cleansed 10 times. That means 80% of their mana are pretty much gone.

Whereas if you just add a cooldown. You're achieving pretty much the same result.

Also you forgot to add the fact that Warlock's curses cannot be cleansed. It's a curse, not magic.

---

Eye for Eye is more or less to give pity to Paladins who struggle catching mages and warlocks. Since mages can kite Paladins easily if they're not stupid. And Warlock has fears and Curse of Exhaustion (And w/ Felhunter, can purge Hand of Freedom to re-apply Curse of Exhaustion). Well -

It's a pity talent basically. "Oh you're getting critted by a caster that you can't catch? Well here. If they crit you, they take 15%-30% damage backlash."

Ok we got a lot of newcomers in this thread like skullcat(Joined: 04 May 2025 01:27) who have no idea what they are talking about while we have been fighting these things for the past 3 years if not more.

Nice ragebait.

This video is an interesting one.

This Paladin is a Holy Paladin. A Shockadin build in process. At that level, they have access to Holy Shock. The hunter opens engagement with a very well-placed usage of an ice trap. You can tell this Hunter is very good at engaging multiple open-world PvP. In addition, Paladin switches to healing to keep Hunter alive from the Shaman's last resort.

Notice that I said last resort?

This video is grossly egregious yet deceptive.

During the video, you can see the Shaman and Druid pursuing two runaways. Attempting to finish them off. When you see their mana, they were very close to OOMing. As such, it's not surprising that a level 51 hunter and paladin were able to defeat two level 60s that weren't at their best. On top of that, they were caught off-guard by sudden introduction of the Hunter and Paladin.

Is this a chat GPT response?

this is me and my friend lol. he's not shockadin he's reckbomb

theres nothing deceptive about it, he's doing more damage than me and healing me. only half of that damage came from reck bomb the rest is relatively good sustained dps


here's another video of a low level paladin fucking raping me on my aq40 warlock with eye for an eye even though im playing almost perfectly

[Springboards]

Yep we got newcomers rolling paladins are trying to defend these insane overtuned abominations but never played against them. Its impossible to take down a paladin as a desto warlock on nordanaar who has half of braincells and juggles gear/auras

Take an unnamed paladin for example, THE ONLY way to take him down is by dots(which he can dispel), he runs https://database.turtle-wow.org/?item=61018
https://database.turtle-wow.org/?item=23042
https://database.turtle-wow.org/?item=18813
https://database.turtle-wow.org/?item=17111


i literally looked up his armory because 75% of my fears were being resisted, 75% of succubus charms were resisted , conflags and shadowburns were cut by 60-70% while he was pushing out insane damage. You tell me this is ok? I am a t3 warlock with 800 sp+ the only items im missing is atiesh or maybe KT staff . And i already cant do nothing

Now some paladin kid who says paladin needs engineering, yes, of course, they use it. You bet they do.Thats before a random paladin charges me with both fire and shadow reflector equipped, pops them at the same time so if there is nothing i can do then that just seals the deal

The only take him down is by dots since direct damage spells literally do not hurt him and man thats going to take a while. Thats it btw. just 4 resist items shut me down. Maybe if casters could get 75% physical reduction I would be ok

[Skullcat]

Is this a chat GPT response?

Sorry to hear that I know English better than 90% of Turtle playerbase.

[Vidnar]

I just said that Paladin is broken whether they are strong or weak. The abilities I listed are all abilities that literally remove interaction within the game, and not in the "Oh I'm cc'd for 10 years and I dont have a cc cleanse" kinda way, but in a "Oh, he pressed 1 button and now I just have to stand here or fuck off until it wears off", and an "Oh, this was actually a really cool pve mechanic that was involved and required the coordination of the raid, but Paladins literally just press 1-2 buttons and the entire raid mechanic might as well not even fucking exist"

And because they have cost it means it's not broken? Since yall like to hit what-aboutism so much, is it ok that a caster can 1 shot you every 3 mins? I mean, it COSTS him a 3 minute cd. Just fight him when he doesnt have his cd 5head. Is it OK that a fresh 60 Shaman with a blue mace can still kill a Naxx geared player? I mean, it cost him mana to put WF on, and it cost him a 6 sec cd to Shock you, no?

And this is all beside the fact that you cant even get Holy Damage resistance or that they can heal someone for their own entire health bar, or that they are ACTUALLY OP on this server.

And heres the proof you argue with bad faith, ignoring everything that was said before.
I advise to go play that OP class, get some decent gear on lvl 60 and then come back and try to defend your own words again.

I have played atleast 3 different paladins to 60 and then 70 since 2019. I do not need to play Turtle Wow's version to see that those same broken elements are still there. You keep equating "broken" with "OP" but they are not the same thing. "Broken" means that something is either impossible, or near impossible to balance. Something that is broken can only exist in a state of Over or Under Power due to some aspect of their kit that is so individually strong that they cannot stand equal to another class because of it. As long as Paladins have not one, not two, not three, but FOUR separate forms of interaction removal, they will remain broken.

Hunter, Rogue, Mage and Warlock say hi.

So, last chance before i end this mockery of a conversation with you: what is your idea of a solution/fix to that problem?
Cause removing only defensive paladin have in the form of divine shield, gutting his kit and just turning him into a worse version of retail vanilla version is proof of acting in bad faith.

[Voodoochile]

Wut? HoJ, Rep, Freedom, BoP can't be dispelled?

This was why I didnt mention that Paladins will stun you until the fucking cows come home or that they can be immune to slows because you can still interact with these things.

[Forumdweller]

Wut? HoJ, Rep, Freedom, BoP can't be dispelled?

This was why I didnt mention that Paladins will stun you until the fucking cows come home or that they can be immune to slows because you can still interact with these things.

you said they have 4 mechanics that you cant interact with. what are they? those things i listed are the things im guessing youre talking about but you can 'interact' with them by your own definition

you said "but those things are dispellable" but so is everything palas have except from self bubble

[Voodoochile]

Hunter, Rogue, Mage and Warlock say hi.

So, last chance before i end this mockery of a conversation with you: what is your idea of a solution/fix to that problem?
Cause removing only defensive paladin have in the form of divine shield, gutting his kit and just turning him into a worse version of retail vanilla version is proof of acting in bad faith.

Hunter feign is only a de-target+exit combat and can fail in pve. Debuffs are still applied, you can still retarget and damage them, and their freeze trap is both dispellable by others as well as yourself with restorative potion

Rogue vanish is much the same except they get enhanced stealth for a few seconds. Dots will still ruin them, and you can still pull them out of stealth with aoe spells, and while not resistable in pve, the way that buffering works makes it possible to be hit out of vanish by an attack that should otherwise fail.

Mage ice block is a close contender, but they are glass cannons that get punished for taking direct damage to begin with. Not to mention they are completely immobile and cannot do anything at all while they are invulnerable.

Warlock ?????????¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿???????????¿¿?¿¿¿?

And I do not presume to know how to fix Paladin, I do not know their nuances as far as what would ruin their gameplay, but to start I would make it to you cannot SS after Divine Intervention. That is such a game breaking interaction that I genuinely believe it has no place in Vanilla. And I've already made a few forum posts about my belief that passive threat reductions should be nerfed or right out removed, but to keep threat reduction cds.

In my mind, fortitude and unwaveringness and protection are core aspects of Paladin identity, but I dont think complete immunities arent necessary for that goal. I would see that BoP were turned into a % damage reduction spell, or just replaced with a buffed version of Blessing of Sacrifice that also has the threat stopping aspect orturn that into a threat reduction.

A personal bubble might be fine if it is their only form of immunity, but I think it might be better served also as a damage reduction+ hard cc immunity/speed boost.

[Forumdweller]

Hunter, Rogue, Mage and Warlock say hi.

So, last chance before i end this mockery of a conversation with you: what is your idea of a solution/fix to that problem?
Cause removing only defensive paladin have in the form of divine shield, gutting his kit and just turning him into a worse version of retail vanilla version is proof of acting in bad faith.

Hunter feign is only a de-target+exit combat and can fail in pve. Debuffs are still applied, you can still retarget and damage them, and their freeze trap is both dispellable by others as well as yourself with restorative potion

Rogue vanish is much the same except they get enhanced stealth for a few seconds. Dots will still ruin them, and you can still pull them out of stealth with aoe spells, and while not resistable in pve, the way that buffering works makes it possible to be hit out of vanish by an attack that should otherwise fail.

Mage ice block is a close contender, but they are glass cannons that get punished for taking direct damage to begin with. Not to mention they are completely immobile and cannot do anything at all while they are invulnerable.

Warlock ?????????¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿???????????¿¿?¿¿¿?

And I do not presume to know how to fix Paladin, I do not know their nuances as far as what would ruin their gameplay, but to start I would make it to you cannot SS after Divine Intervention. That is such a game breaking interaction that I genuinely believe it has no place in Vanilla. And I've already made a few forum posts about my belief that passive threat reductions should be nerfed or right out removed, but to keep threat reduction cds.

In my mind, fortitude and unwaveringness and protection are core aspects of Paladin identity, but I dont think complete immunities arent necessary for that goal. I would see that BoP were turned into a % damage reduction spell, or just replaced with a buffed version of Blessing of Sacrifice that also has the threat stopping aspect orturn that into a threat reduction.

A personal bubble might be fine if it is their only form of immunity, but I think it might be better served also as a damage reduction+ hard cc immunity/speed boost.

are you new to pvp? genuine question

you can't just compare abilities like this without understand how a class actually operates

ofc vanish doesnt function the same as a 10 second immunity they have a billion options to CC and Kick and Sprint and reset all their CD's on a whim

do you think giving every class a 10 sec immunity would suddenly solve the issues paladin has? it would immediately make paladin F- tier

[Voodoochile]

you said they have 4 mechanics that you cant interact with. what are they? those things i listed are the things im guessing youre talking about but you can 'interact' with them by your own definition

you said "but those things are dispellable" but so is everything palas have except from self bubble

I did not say 4 you cannot interact with, I said 4 interaction removals. This includes the pve aspect of Paladin being able to drop threat on demand for any member of his raid, as well a blanket 30% reduction for as many member of his raid that need it. Idk if you know this, but threat is a really big mechanic that exists on every single pve encounter involving 2 or more people and Paladins, on top of their invincibilities, simply do not interact with. Actually THEIR WHOLE GROUP no longer needs to interact with it.

But like I said above, Paladins are a fundamentally broken class. They have several spells that say "You no longer get to interact with me" that is aggrevating to play against in pvp, and breaks and trivializes encounters in pve.

The fact that Paladins can completely drop the threat gen of any member of the raid instantly, and make that target completely invincible to physical is insane.
The fact that they can make themselves invincible to nearly everything is insane.
The fact they can completely negate mechanics like Maexxna web+heal cut poison+enrage combo by DI'ing another healer and using a soulstone to breeze through end game progression mechanics is insane.
The fact that they can give any person 30% threat reduction is insane.

[Forumdweller]

Is this a chat GPT response?

Sorry to hear that I know English better than 90% of Turtle playerbase.

lol its not just the way you typed it but that you give wrong info like the pala being shockadin im not sure where u even got that from

[Voodoochile]

Hunter, Rogue, Mage and Warlock say hi.

So, last chance before i end this mockery of a conversation with you: what is your idea of a solution/fix to that problem?
Cause removing only defensive paladin have in the form of divine shield, gutting his kit and just turning him into a worse version of retail vanilla version is proof of acting in bad faith.

Hunter feign is only a de-target+exit combat and can fail in pve. Debuffs are still applied, you can still retarget and damage them, and their freeze trap is both dispellable by others as well as yourself with restorative potion

Rogue vanish is much the same except they get enhanced stealth for a few seconds. Dots will still ruin them, and you can still pull them out of stealth with aoe spells, and while not resistable in pve, the way that buffering works makes it possible to be hit out of vanish by an attack that should otherwise fail.

Mage ice block is a close contender, but they are glass cannons that get punished for taking direct damage to begin with. Not to mention they are completely immobile and cannot do anything at all while they are invulnerable.

Warlock ?????????¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿???????????¿¿?¿¿¿?

And I do not presume to know how to fix Paladin, I do not know their nuances as far as what would ruin their gameplay, but to start I would make it to you cannot SS after Divine Intervention. That is such a game breaking interaction that I genuinely believe it has no place in Vanilla. And I've already made a few forum posts about my belief that passive threat reductions should be nerfed or right out removed, but to keep threat reduction cds.

In my mind, fortitude and unwaveringness and protection are core aspects of Paladin identity, but I dont think complete immunities arent necessary for that goal. I would see that BoP were turned into a % damage reduction spell, or just replaced with a buffed version of Blessing of Sacrifice that also has the threat stopping aspect orturn that into a threat reduction.

A personal bubble might be fine if it is their only form of immunity, but I think it might be better served also as a damage reduction+ hard cc immunity/speed boost.

are you new to pvp? genuine question

you can't just compare abilities like this without understand how a class actually operates

ofc vanish doesnt function the same as a 10 second immunity they have a billion options to CC and Kick and Sprint and reset all their CD's on a whim

do you think giving every class a 10 sec immunity would suddenly solve the issues paladin has? it would immediately make paladin F- tier

You guys are so hostile for people who are missing the point. I am arguing that a handful of Paladin's abilities are broken OP, and that makes the class broken. Whether or not THE CLASS is OP or UP at this moment is not relevant to my point. Because these abilities are so strong, the class needs to be balanced with these in mind, but if they are, then they will feel UP because their power is allocated in these abilities. IF THEY ARE NOT BALANCED WITH THESE IN MIND, then they will feel OP because they can compete with other classes WITH THESE STRONG ABILITIES.

THIS is why Paladins are a broken class. It's like trying to lay on a bed of nail. You can do it with minor discomfort, but you you try to lay in a bed of 6 nails, you will have 6 holes in your body. The nails here represent every single thing a class can do within their kit. Having one or two longer nails is ok for vanilla, but Paladin has a handful of LONG nails

[Forumdweller]

But your argument makes no sense, and I don't think I've been hostile to you once.

Just because they aren't very functional without an ability that doesn't mean it's 'broken' if we go by your own definition.
What if we take this logic to other classes?

Mage's can't function without Frost Nova
Rogue's can't function without Sprint
Warrior's can't function without Intercept
Priests can't function without PW:Shield or Psychic Scream
Warlock's can't function without Insta casts (unless they're soul link which is something actually fucking stupid)

etc etc etc.

So if you remove these BROKEN abilities and the class no longer functions, then by your logic that means it's the removed abilities/classes fault because the class is reliant on them.

Which ofc is extremely silly logic. Wow has to be balanced around CD's because it's not a shooter where you can just instantly run around and shoot people dead in the head at will.

If you wanna complain about a class that does insane mega dmg and can heal themselves then point your finger at Druid.

They are dependant on exactly 0 CD's, run around at lightning speed unhibited, heal better than paladins, have multiple spell schools, go invisible the list goes on and on. They don't need a 5 minute CD to achieve anything. Hate to say it but paladin is literally handicapped class that stomps on noobs. Let them keep their bubble but as I've said before and as you've already hinted at: Decide if it's a DPS or a hybrid class. Nerf their damage or healing but give them more utility.

It's not as simple as just adding or removing stuff with pala unless they make many changes at once. Long arm of the law would actually be good for them (something like 15% additional move speed for 3s after using judgement) but it would make them actual gods without changing numbers and resistances first.

[Voodoochile]

But your argument makes no sense, and I don't think I've been hostile to you once.

Just because they aren't very functional without an ability that doesn't mean it's 'broken' if we go by your own definition.
What if we take this logic to other classes?

Mage's can't function without Frost Nova
Rogue's can't function without Sprint
Warrior's can't function without Intercept
Priests can't function without PW:Shield or Psychic Scream
Warlock's can't function without Insta casts (unless they're soul link which is something actually fucking stupid)

etc etc etc.

So if you remove these BROKEN abilities and the class no longer functions, then by your logic that means it's the removed abilities/classes fault because the class is reliant on them.

I genuinely don't know what to tell you if you cannot tell the difference between the inherent power between intercept, a +10 - 25yard dash w/ a stun, during which time they can still be cc'd and damaged, and Divine Shield - a 12 second instant invincibility bubble.

Both Warriors and Paladins are stat balanced around the tools within their kits. Warriors and Paladins do alot of dmg when they are in melee range because getting into, and staying in, melee range is hard. A warrior can close the gap easier, but he cannot stall a fight for 12 seconds of invincibility in which time he can heal himself, stalling a fight longer on a 5m cd. And no amount of enemy cooldowns or consumes or trinkets or gadgets can do anything about this ability.

Are you aware that a solo Paladin can win an AV base rush simply by stalling for a solid minute 1 vs 30-40 horde members on a tower? This is a fundamentally broken interaction, and if you sincerely cannot understand this concept of a single ability have far more impact than the entire raid's worth of players, then I genuinely don't know what to tell you. If you can't understand that concept, then there is legitimately no point to attempt to continue this conversation.

[Forumdweller]

Paladins can stall a bunker cap for 10 seconds? Oh no, how will horde ever recover from this? Not like they have an advantage in AV in the first place.

If this is even a problem with pvp then holy christ, I legit cannot fathom how you get through day to day life

Legit finding problems where there aren't any

You know casters can also stop ppl from capping flag by hitting them with aoe from 40 yards away?