Making Other Pet Types Viable

[Tytarjunior]

Hey All,

I've mained a hunter since Vanilla wow on many servers, including this one. One gripe I've always had in Vanilla and TBC is the lack of viable variety in pets. Yes, you can make any pet work. But really, the only viable options are your cats, wind serpents, in TBC it's ravagers, but I would really like to see other pet options be viable.

It could be something as simple as tweaking the math to make their DPS or HP higher.

More engaging changes would be adding say...'web' ability to spiders. Giving us reason to go out and tame other beast types.

TurtleWoW is the only dev team I have 100% faith in doing balancing like this justice..more so than Blizzard or any other private server out there.

It would be great to have reasons to choose other pet types. Would be a welcome change and doesn't break the spirit of vanilla. :)

[Tytarjunior]

Plus, timing would be good with all those soon-to-be undead hunters out there. :)

[Yutilk]

Make turtle pets great again! It's only logical.

[Lahire]

I don't know anything about hunters. Is is really that bad or is this one of those "if I am performing at 99% instead of 100% i'm not viable even if I parse purple" ?
Sometimes, through hearsay, a minor/not important "imbalance" becomes "omg I can't use that" for no other reasons than all people say it so it must be true.

EDIT - This video seems to not agree with the idea that cats are always the best dps for example.

[Merikkinon]

I only heard part of that about performance. That's like a lot of the suggestions.

But, I also heard suggestions about increasing their abilities to more animal-specific traits, such as 'web' for a spider.

Agree with that. Variety is a cool thing.

[Tytarjunior]

I don't know anything about hunters. Is is really that bad or is this one of those "if I am performing at 99% instead of 100% i'm not viable even if I parse purple" ?
Sometimes, through hearsay, a minor/not important "imbalance" becomes "omg I can't use that" for no other reasons than all people say it so it must be true.

EDIT - This video seems to not agree with the idea that cats are always the best dps for example.

Great question. Having played hunter since OG vanilla, I can say with absolute certainty that it is that bad. Sure, you could be just fine rolling a turtle pet or a plainstrider. But it makes absolutely not sense in any capacity aside from aesthetics. Sure, turtles have a tanking ability, but the damage output and abilities are so much higher on the best pet in the game (cats) and wind serpents, there's literally no point to get other pets unless you are going for looks only.

Look at cats:
Base stat modifiers:
0.98 Health
1.00 Armor
1.10 Damage

Diet:
Fish/Meat

Abilities:
Bite (DPS), Claw (DPS no cooldown), Dash (Sprint essentially), Prowl (Stealth), Cower (threat reduction)


Look at crocolisk:
Base stat modifiers:
0.95 Health
1.10 Armor
1.00 Damage

Diet:
Fish/Meat

Abilities:
Bite (DPS), Cower (threat reduction)


If you look at it, they're practically the same pets with base stats swapped around. But stats-wise AND ability-wise, crocolisks are outright worse.

I really hope a turtle dev sees this. It would add so much hunter variety for such a simple change.

To keep it simple, you could seriously just bump base stats if they didn't want to go through the trouble adding abilities. Make the stats vs abilities a tough tradeoff to make and the hunter has to choose what they find more valuable.

If I was balancing the crocolisk stats here, I'd give them:
1.20 Health
1.20 Armor
1.10 Damage

Doesn't break the feel of the game but allows them to be a viable choice over cats (even though I'd still argue cats are better with the numbers I just presented.

[Fizzeek]

Owls are pretty awesome. Screech's AP reduction is great in pve.

[Lahire]

Owls are pretty awesome. Screech's AP reduction is great in pve.

Yeah during my Naxx runs, hunters had owls. One said that it was the best since AQ, but I don't know why.

According to the video, Raptors are close to cats in dps. So it makes 3 types of pet tied for optimal in raid.
Remember that viable and optimal are 2 very different things. Viable means : you can bring it in raid and it won't make the raid lose encounters (or too much time). It is probable that all pets are viable (you won't lose a raid or even time because hunters have chosen the "wrong" pets).
If there are really 3 pets optimal (cats, owls, raptors), and all other are worse but viable, I think it is pretty much a nice balance.

Most of the choices are viable in vanilla, because the game is really easy. Even ret paladin and moonkin are viable if played correctly in all raids. They are not optimal, but they are viable (you won't wipe because you have a ret paladin). Same for pets init?

All raids can be done without sweat with 39 players, so it means there is big leeway for player choice (you can have non-optimal choices up to losing 1 or 2 player equivalent without losing significant time).

This said, a buff to turtle pets would be thematic and fun.

[Crazyhelix]

Yeah during my Naxx runs, hunters had owls. One said that it was the best since AQ, but I don't know why.

According to the video, Raptors are close to cats in dps. So it makes 3 types of pet tied for optimal in raid.
Remember that viable and optimal are 2 very different things. Viable means : you can bring it in raid and it won't make the raid lose encounters (or too much time). It is probable that all pets are viable (you won't lose a raid or even time because hunters have chosen the "wrong" pets).
If there are really 3 pets optimal (cats, owls, raptors), and all other are worse but viable, I think it is pretty much a nice balance.

Most of the choices are viable in vanilla, because the game is really easy. Even ret paladin and moonkin are viable if played correctly in all raids. They are not optimal, but they are viable (you won't wipe because you have a ret paladin). Same for pets init?

All raids can be done without sweat with 39 players, so it means there is big leeway for player choice (you can have non-optimal choices up to losing 1 or 2 player equivalent without losing significant time).

This said, a buff to turtle pets would be thematic and fun.

You can choose any Pet and it will be viable if OTHER 39 people got RIGTH classes/specs. Otherwise its a wipe. And that says to us that its NOT a good balance (i mean all clases not only Hunter's Pets). And this story not about pet DPS only - Owl's got good PVE debuff - its OK, but other Pets? Mb in PVP?
In LichKing Hunter have many available Pets for leveling and pvp actions but not Vanilla. And it's really terrable. Only people that don't plays Hunter and ABSOLUTELY do not understand how does ANY balance work may say that all Vanilla Pet's are viable.

[Crazyhelix]

I think it's okay that there are different pet clases (offensive, balanced, defensive) with different stats being boosted. Adding unique abilities to those pets that don't have 4 abilities right now could make them more viable and add uniqueness, though. A spider with a web ability e.g. would be dope and would make them used more often.

Exactly. Nobody need Imba Pet, just more possibilities based on Pet's abilities. And even more - Pet's could have different abilities based on location condition. For example: Bear could had Swing attack (like in WotLK) but Polar Bear - frost swing that deals less dmg but slowing target's attack. Etc...(i know it already dreams but why not?)

[Lahire]

You can choose any Pet and it will be viable if OTHER 39 people got RIGTH classes/specs. Otherwise its a wipe.

That's really an overstatement: for Naxx yes, but MC is easy with like 37 players and BWL too.

[Crazyhelix]

You can choose any Pet and it will be viable if OTHER 39 people got RIGTH classes/specs. Otherwise its a wipe.

That's really an overstatement: for Naxx yes, but MC is easy with like 37 players and BWL too.

Ok. In your raid Paladin Tank, Feral tank, Feral DPS, Moonkin, Arcane mage, Shadow priest, BeastMaster, Surv Hunter, Disc Priest, Retri, Destroloc, Subrogue, Armswar - 40 ppl that think Raid wouldnt lost if he play fun spec. Will you kill finall boss even in MC?
It was ritoric question. When the game in balance - answer is YES. In reality - LOL WTF?!?!? :D

[Valadorn]

Id like hunter pets get the same abilities those creatures use as NPCs, that would add lots of depth

[Crazyhelix]

Id like hunter pets get the same abilities those creatures use as NPCs, that would add lots of depth

It's perfect. But i dont dare even suggest it

[Crazyhelix]

Id like hunter pets get the same abilities those creatures use as NPCs, that would add lots of depth

Honestly, that's not a good idea. This would make very few pets very overpowered. You can already observe this in Vanilla, with some stats (attack speed or run speed) not being normalized. Was even worse in earlier patches were e.g. resistance wasn't being normalized. This sounds like it would add more variety to pets, but it would actually decrease variety because few pets would just be so good that going for aesthetics would be punished hard.

/ To give an example: Within a short amount of time, players would find the pet with the best CC ability (e.g. a spider with a web spell that has the lowest cooldown and longest duration). Chosing a pet without or worse CC would then just not be viable in PvP.

// If hunter suddenly had 2 CC abilities instead of one (that even is a little difficult to use), balance would also totally get wrecked.

At first getting hunter Pets abilities from open world beasts automatacally implies this abilities have to be balanced to each other.
At second it wouldnt be worse anyway. It just can't be. As maximum of bad result favorites will changes - but even this is better then 20 years stagnation.
And i think it's obvious...

[Tytarjunior]

Id like hunter pets get the same abilities those creatures use as NPCs, that would add lots of depth

I've always wanted this. If TurtleWow did this, it would do SO much more good than they even realize. The variety would be out of this world.

[Tytarjunior]

Id like hunter pets get the same abilities those creatures use as NPCs, that would add lots of depth

Honestly, that's not a good idea. This would make very few pets very overpowered. You can already observe this in Vanilla, with some stats (attack speed or run speed) not being normalized. Was even worse in earlier patches were e.g. resistance wasn't being normalized. This sounds like it would add more variety to pets, but it would actually decrease variety because few pets would just be so good that going for aesthetics would be punished hard.

/ To give an example: Within a short amount of time, players would find the pet with the best CC ability (e.g. a spider with a web spell that has the lowest cooldown and longest duration). Chosing a pet without or worse CC would then just not be viable in PvP.

// If hunter suddenly had 2 CC abilities instead of one (that even is a little difficult to use), balance would also totally get wrecked.

You make a very good point and as much as I hate to say it, I agree with you. This said, I hope TurtleWoW considers doing some very basic balancing to say a crocolisk.

Sure it won't cause a wipe, but who on earth would roll a crocolisk over a cat? Mathematically and ability wise it's flat out not balanced. Variety would be huge, but there are so many pets I'd like to tame but why would I at the cost of performance? I'm no min-maxer, but no one in their right mind would choose a crocolisk over a cat unless they just wanted the look.

[Tytarjunior]

Owls are pretty awesome. Screech's AP reduction is great in pve.

Yeah during my Naxx runs, hunters had owls. One said that it was the best since AQ, but I don't know why.

According to the video, Raptors are close to cats in dps. So it makes 3 types of pet tied for optimal in raid.
Remember that viable and optimal are 2 very different things. Viable means : you can bring it in raid and it won't make the raid lose encounters (or too much time). It is probable that all pets are viable (you won't lose a raid or even time because hunters have chosen the "wrong" pets).
If there are really 3 pets optimal (cats, owls, raptors), and all other are worse but viable, I think it is pretty much a nice balance.

Most of the choices are viable in vanilla, because the game is really easy. Even ret paladin and moonkin are viable if played correctly in all raids. They are not optimal, but they are viable (you won't wipe because you have a ret paladin). Same for pets init?

All raids can be done without sweat with 39 players, so it means there is big leeway for player choice (you can have non-optimal choices up to losing 1 or 2 player equivalent without losing significant time).

This said, a buff to turtle pets would be thematic and fun.

One thing I'd like to say to this..on many servers (although I doubt turtlewow because the community is so helpful) you'll get laughed out of a raid or dungeon if you roll a dumb pet. If I show up to MC or BlackTemple (TBC) with a crab or crocolisk, I will promptly be removed and mocked regardless of my skillset. Which, I have to agree with because those pets are terrible.

Yea you won't wipe necessarily, but everyone knows it's pretty bad.

[Lahire]

That's not a game problem, that's a toxic community problem.
The game doesn't force people to be jackasses to each others. Official english servers were very toxic ; it's less the case on some other official servers (french pve was cozy, french pvp servers had 1 very toxic and 1 welcomy).
I don't think it is wise to balance the game according to toxic people attitudes.

[Tytarjunior]

That's not a game problem, that's a toxic community problem.
The game doesn't force people to be jackasses to each others. Official english servers were very toxic ; it's less the case on some other official servers (french pve was cozy, french pvp servers had 1 very toxic and 1 welcomy).
I don't think it is wise to balance the game according to toxic people attitudes.

And I agree. I know those communities were most definitely toxic. My point is, I wouldn't have been laughed off the raid had I rolled a cat. Regardless of their toxicity or not, it is undoubtedly better to roll cat, raptor, ravager (tbc). I just want the other pet types to be able to hang with the top ones in any dungeon or raid (but do so in their own unique way). Doesn't need to be DPS.

[Crazyhelix]

That's not a game problem, that's a toxic community problem.
The game doesn't force people to be jackasses to each others. Official english servers were very toxic ; it's less the case on some other official servers (french pve was cozy, french pvp servers had 1 very toxic and 1 welcomy).
I don't think it is wise to balance the game according to toxic people attitudes.

Sure toxic. You are playing all together to getting Rare raid Items. All of You preparing wasting time for this and somebody do obvious bad action (like Retripal gaming, croc pet choosing etc). As result it's a wipe. You lost your time and your mood going dawn. And why? Cause u r toxic? No! cause some guys got wrong choose that wiped u all.
People will be allways toxic - it's a part of our social patterns, BUT game shouldnt give so much occasion for being toxic. Wide gameplay diversity it's a way to give people another possibilities and game realization. When u could take Moonking with same effectivity and wouldnt raid kicked - who ll get worse?

Better Gamebalance making less occasions to be toxic in 100% of cases in 100% of games to 100% of people.

[Tytarjunior]

That's not a game problem, that's a toxic community problem.
The game doesn't force people to be jackasses to each others. Official english servers were very toxic ; it's less the case on some other official servers (french pve was cozy, french pvp servers had 1 very toxic and 1 welcomy).
I don't think it is wise to balance the game according to toxic people attitudes.

Sure toxic. You are playing all together to getting Rare raid Items. All of You preparing wasting time for this and somebody do obvious bad action (like Retripal gaming, croc pet choosing etc). As result it's a wipe. You lost your time and your mood going dawn. And why? Cause u r toxic? No! cause some guys got wrong choose that wiped u all.
People will be allways toxic - it's a part of our social patterns, BUT game shouldnt give so much occasion for being toxic. Wide gameplay diversity it's a way to give people another possibilities and game realization. When u could take Moonking with same effectivity and wouldnt raid kicked - who ll get worse?

Better Gamebalance making less occasions to be toxic in 100% of cases in 100% of games to 100% of people.

While I don't think running crocolisk will cause a wipe, I do agree with you other than that. It makes no sense for anyone to choose crocolisk, tallstrider, crab, or turtle (and arguably some other pets). It would be really cool to have them tweaked even slightly for more variety.