Let's talk about PvP system!

[Paw]

Pvp system is really good don't get me wrong either but it is a system. A system requires a huge amount of energy to develop and not small amount of time either. Optimizing it for our community needs requires similar amount of time and energy while a competition is a good alternative and is closer to my field of experties. However I get your point. I'll make a new thread. The two doesn't contradict each other. Might as well work on both! :)

[Paw]

I'm not trying to force you into another thread, I'm just trying to say that adding things on top like World PvP, new battlegrounds or events doesn't fix the issues inherent to the Vanilla PvP system. I also don't suggest replacing the system (which, I agree, would require a lot of work), but instead tweaking it (e.g. by adjusting decay and introducing a glyph that prevents gaining honir and gaining/losing ranking points). Those would be minor changes that can be implemented rather quickly.

Imagine what it's like: I've PvPed for 2 or 3 months, and if I don't want to lose my progress, I'm forced to play battlegrounds at least two nights a week just to not lose any progress (without progressing at all). Actual progress is out of reach as long as I'm unable (or unwilling) to play at least every second night, likely more. It's an extremely frustrating experience for a casual player. This is what needs to be fixed urgently.

Starting to understand the dilemma. Thank you for the summary. It was only proper to change threads since it derailed entirelly from this topic. My main dilemma is to introduce a healthy pvp atmosphere. You are a big help and I appreciate it. Back to topic: What if we make a vote on the kind of short fixes you are talking about and ask for approval. What are the main objectives you enlisted so far? Have you managed to make a census?

[Leozan]

Starting to understand the dilemma. Thank you for the summary. It was only proper to change threads since it derailed entirelly from this topic. My main dilemma is to introduce a healthy pvp atmosphere. You are a big help and I appreciate it. Back to topic: What if we make a vote on the kind of short fixes you are talking about and ask for approval. What are the main objectives you enlisted so far? Have you managed to make a census? Agreed on anyithing final?

It would also be helpful to make a poll asking why players don’t participate in pvp. Getting those answers would be invaluable to creating a more inviting system that takes non participants into the equation. After all if more people were pvp’ing in general certain issues/fixes mentioned here wouldn’t exist (xfaction for example).

[Paw]

I remember a huge quarrel about the decay removal so I hardly believe that we could implement it without causing hardship for others. I believe quick fixes don't solve anything in the long run and that's why I am suggesting rethinking the entire system. That way we can appease everyone's appetite.

[Tarluk]

I think once the server gets a bit larger, it'd be great to have more incentive for people to do BGs while leveling, by having more of an experience reward from turning in Marks of Honor; enough to be a viable supplement to questing without outright replacing questing or dungeons. You could maybe even have an XP multiplier (like 1.25x or so) on the Mark of Honor repeatable quest for the faction with less overall players (in this case, the Horde) to both encourage existing Hordies to queue for BGs more and encourage new players to roll Horde, without being too heavy-handed by having giving the less populated faction.

[Deathduck2]

One idea is to mix horde and alliance on the same team in battlegrounds, and to disable group queuing. This solves multiple problems, the first being que times and BG's not popping. When horde and alliance are mixed it's much easier to start a WSG game because you don't have a bottleneck of one faction. Disable group que allows fate to determine if you're on the better team, which means not account for your own ability you can expect to win ~50% of the time.

Those were my two biggest problems with BG's in classic, que times and pub stomping. Implementing these changes would go a long way in creating a healthy PvP BG ecosystem.

[Jimmicz]

Imagine what it's like: I've PvPed for 2 or 3 months, and if I don't want to lose my progress, I'm forced to play battlegrounds at least two nights a week just to not lose any progress (without progressing at all). Actual progress is out of reach as long as I'm unable (or unwilling) to play at least every second night, likely more. It's an extremely frustrating experience for a casual player. This is what needs to be fixed urgently.

I was Ranking for 6 months playing 16-22h a day on classic and I never reached R14 just because Pool size shrunk down to like 1/4 of what it was when I started..., Reason I didn't get it? I just got burned out and gave up. That's just the reality of the grind. And yes we did PoolParties and we had an order in all things, and luckily nobody was breaking the brackets we set up. Image if I would ask Blizzard to do something about it so my grind is easier. Again, R14 is not built for a casual player.

BWT I just checked and with just 9 Honor Kills my standing for last week is 47, which is a proper joke and after doing 2 BGs, I got rank and half progress. So yeah, Ranking on TWoW is easy.

[Djijin]

Balance isn't bad in vanilla pvp, IF everyone has similar gear around the mid to upper mid-point range. This means pvp skill shines and not instant-death blasting from twinks.

On every single fresh vanilla server, pvp was absolutely a blast up until the tier 2 mark. Past that, players simply cannot complete if 2 tiers outside of someone else that has full enchants.

Pvp should be like stock car racing, where everyone has similar gear. The easiest method for this imo, would be granting everyone instant access to pvp gear sets (not epics) that can only be worn in BGs (where ranking opens gear access to the open world too). This puts most on par with each other and all raid gear blocked from BGs. The pvp epic gear is still allowed for those willing to do that race and become respected on site when seen. This means most will easily get access to pre-BIS dungeon blues and the blue pvp gear set. This should allow enough stats for gear dependent classes to scale but also not scale too much (like warriors), and damage should be low enough not to need some additional mitigation stat or something. The side affect of not allowing raid gear in bg's is increasing the value of world/dungeon purples and rare blues.

Levelers can still twink if they want, but for the love of Elune, PUT ITEM LEVEL RESTRICTIONS ON ENCHANTS!!!

Open world pvp? Not sure, but limits on pvp damage and healing calculations needs to be mitigated somehow. The uber, high tier purples simply cannot be involved in pvp or participation will tank. If pvp entry always had everyone on nearly equal grounds, participation will increase. Level/tier gating gear and enchants, so everyone is more on par with each other is the only way to change the minds of many who simply will not pvp, because twinks and Naxx geared players are utterly pointless to play against.

Raid gear should be for raiding. Open world is not raiding. Pvp is not raiding. There may need to be considerations for Hero level content vs Normal level content. This is to preserve open world content and scaling. Right now, tier 2.5 and especially 3 absolutely turns non-raid, open world content meaningless. On a server constantly adding to the open world, there should always be content a well geared player struggles with solo. This is how old school mmorpgs were built. It is why their open worlds are considered legendary and today's mmo worlds reduced to casual and largely meaningless content.

This is one topic. Pvp in general must be implemented in a lore friendly way, with ease of access on a RP-PvE server, or it will remain dead. Others here in this thread provide different solutions to a similar issue: insane scaling. Whatever solution is fine, but the problem is clear.

How would u feel about the same rules applied to PvE ? You can only go to scholo / strath in prebis, no higher gear allowed, no higher lvl people allowed in dungeons, heck, why not take away all gear completly and nerf everything ? Do you even PvP ? Would u pvp if there is nothing you can gain of it ? Boohoo honor decay ? Gues what. . . Battlegrounds give rep too, there is no reputation decay and that stuff is pretty nice too. Do you even understand what taking away the pvp gear would do ? Why should anyone farm higher gear, if they would not be allowed to flex it on other people ? This is an MMO, not some racing game. What i feel like you dont understand is that MMOs main progress is Gear, you get gear so u can get more gear, what remains if you take that away?

Your question makes no sense. The entire point is to not affect pve.

Pvp is for fun. Gear races in pvp is meaningless. There is a reason stock car races exist. There is also a reason why top modified teams win consistently every year ... because they have the most money.

It sounds like you can't imagine outside of the box. You can't even understand that I clearly mean to have pvp changes NOT affect pve in any way.

Do I pvp? I was a dedicated pvp'r for DECADES. This is why I mention these changes, because gear making one player a GOD, and pre-mades gatekeeping pvp so hardly ANYONE participates, is a very bad thing.

It sounds like you drank the meta, and have zero insight into ANY possible way to make pvp fun and accessible for all. Rewards do not need to be a constant gear race. Rewards could include cosmetics or RP connections to the pve world giving additional access to things (much like RvR games do ... you know, actual REAL mmorpg pvp and not instanced, mini-games that Wow turned into). It could literally be anything other than a gear race that has only ever done one thing in Wow: cock-block the average player was ever wanting to try pvp.

I have to ask you: What makes you so INCREDIBLY SCARED, about not being able to 1 shot anyone in the game because your gear is 3 times better than theirs? Would you lose your mojo? Your virility? Is your epeen going to shrink? Would you lose all ability to log into a game? Why is your manhood affected by a video game? Are you truly THAT insecure?

[Pfwg]

... I've seen people go from laughing and having fun in Molten Core to actively wishing death upon people's families two hours later because of Warsong Gulch. PvP turns decent people into total rage monsters ...

On a regular server, you can't talk to the opposite faction ... Here, though? Just click their name and start wishin' cancer. People say things in the heat of the moment, and it's not conductive to a friendly community...

This is the most important issue that needs to be addressed. Qix is absolutely spot on.

The conduct I've seen from some players around PvP is frankly embarrassing. Some of the posts in this thread are not so different.

[Dokkababecallme]

Disable group que allows fate to determine if you're on the better team, which means not account for your own ability you can expect to win ~50% of the time.

Disabling group queue creates more problems:

1) If you don't choose your team, you'll get stuck with toxic players. Solo queue always increases toxicity in games.
2) You have no way to balance around class composition, gear, and skill. When forming your own teams, you can ensure you have balanced teams.

I'd rather disable solo queue to encourage people to find groups. There are plenty of non-mmos you can play for a solo queue experience.

The conduct I've seen from some players around PvP is frankly embarrassing. Some of the posts in this thread are not so different.

PvEers can behave just as badly. Toxic guildmates aren't a problem for the devs to address, so why is PvP any different?

[Paw]

It's really nice that so many of you gathered here. It would be welcome if you managed to come up with a solution. Honto! Please carry on! Tooltip: If you find trouble fishing in an area then try to attach a lure to your fishing rod. Godspeed! Turtle-speed!

[Pfwg]

The conduct I've seen from some players around PvP is frankly embarrassing. Some of the posts in this thread are not so different.

PvEers can behave just as badly. Toxic guildmates aren't a problem for the devs to address, so why is PvP any different?

I'm not sure why you're asking me that question. I'm not a dev and don't speak for them. They would be in a better position to explain, but I, too, am interested in why PvP toxicity is so different, so vitriolic and so unmoderated, in comparison to PvE.

It's really nice that so many of you gathered here. It would be welcome if you managed to come up with a solution. Honto! Please carry on! Tooltip: If you find trouble fishing in an area then try to attach a lure to your fishing rod. Godspeed! Turtle-speed!

This is a discussion thread, look at the title.

[Paw]

This is a discussion thread, look at the title.

I apologise. I am a little enthusiastic. However at the time this is a great help for our community.

[Pfwg]

This is a discussion thread, look at the title.

I apologise. I am a little enthusiastic. However at the time this is a great help for our community.

No worries at all - your heart is in the right place and that's what matters!

[Leozan]

It's really nice that so many of you gathered here. It would be welcome if you managed to come up with a solution. Honto! Please carry on! Tooltip: If you find trouble fishing in an area then try to attach a lure to your fishing rod. Godspeed! Turtle-speed!

Here are the major points brought up in this thread so far. At this point I’d say it’s up to the devs to figure out what they can and cannot implement to the server. Honestly can’t imagine much action taking place till AFTER the expansion so it’s no use being restless waiting for a definite solution yet.

Personally I would take into consideration the last point first, getting that data and using it to refine the rest of the arguments if applicable.

1. Adjust pvp gear progression to be more horizontal by either retuning stat differences or expanding the selection with custom items (cosmetic options/lower end pvp gear via custom crafting quests)

2. Reduce honor decay to allow more players to reach high rank gear with less time commitment

3. Separate pvp server

4. Crossfaction battleground ( optional model swapping)

5. Have pvp gear only cost marks of honor like in TBC

6. Create world rp-pvp events organized through discord (ex. turn a zone with faction towns into a flag cap match)

7. Stop honor gain (via glyph/service) so max rank players aren’t effecting lower rank progressing

8. Wait for Blood Ring which will be cross faction and have its own rewards eventually

9. More open world repeatable pvp quests (level restrictions so only 20’s hunt 20’s) with eventual gear rewards

10. Increase minimum player participation requirement (more than 2v2)

11. More capture points like in silithis and eastern plaugeland that give honor as reward (must be flagged to capture, also repeatable)

12. Create pvp pirate island with mobs, herbs,ore, chests, capture points, etc. Can be something like an outlaw area with one neutral pub for rest and dueling.

13. Harsher RP penalties for dishonorable kills. Also harsher penalties for player toxicity (with proof)

14. Increase exp reward for handing in marks of honor while leveling.

15. Make a poll/dev post asking people who don’t pvp WHY they don’t participate. Explore that topic first before adding new systems.

[Paw]

15. Make a poll/dev post asking people who don’t pvp WHY they don’t participate. Address that problem first before adding new systems.

I'm gonna adress this point right away for you. They don't participate because ours is a PVE/RP server. That means they mostly either don't like the dinamic of pvp or they are not playing efficient enough to partake in that aspect of the game. If you would like further explonation I will gladly adress your questions in private message since that would be off-topic. The 3 main factors are PVE,PVP and RP that compliments this game and since we took out PVP from get go its like asking why volleyball players don't like badminton. Hope the answer if sufficient enough.

[Leozan]

15. Make a poll/dev post asking people who don’t pvp WHY they don’t participate. Address that problem first before adding new systems.

I'm gonna adress this point right away for you. They don't participate because ours is a PVE/RP server. That means they mostly either don't like the dinamic of pvp or they are not playing efficient enough to partake in that aspect of the game. If you would like further explonation I will gladly adress your questions in private message since that would be off-topic. The 3 main factors are PVE,PVP and RP that compliments this game and since we took out PVP from get go its like asking why volleyball players don't like badminton. Hope the answer if sufficient enough.

I actually wouldn’t mind a more detailed breakdown if your willing. It’s good to hear from the other side directly but if you already have the arguments gathered that also works.

[Lahire]

I don't know if it deserves a big explanation, that's just logical : when you build a server for pve players, it's normal there will be few pvp players. It's like asking why people in a coffee shop, on average, prefer coffee to tea.

[Pfwg]

15. Make a poll/dev post asking people who don’t pvp WHY they don’t participate. Address that problem first before adding new systems.

I'm gonna adress this point right away for you. They don't participate because ours is a PVE/RP server. That means they mostly either don't like the dinamic of pvp or they are not playing efficient enough to partake in that aspect of the game. If you would like further explonation I will gladly adress your questions in private message since that would be off-topic. The 3 main factors are PVE,PVP and RP that compliments this game and since we took out PVP from get go its like asking why volleyball players don't like badminton. Hope the answer if sufficient enough.

None of these are why I don't PvP. I'd suggest asking people what their opinions are rather than telling them what they are.

[Pahacsinta]

As much as I read I agree with Coun but bit more drasticly. Remove honor decay/Ffa zone with some objectives / dont let AVs happen under 10v10 (If u more interested i have a "wall of text" to post)

[Rakura]

• 1. Remove honor decay it has no place here and never had a place in the real game.
  2. Create a linear progression system based on honor and convert it to XP type system. In this way if you base it on what was needed to achieve High Warlord / Grand Marshal and work backwards from there it will create a system where everyone has the chance to attain the rank but not everyone will want to put in that kinda time. This also allows the people who already made it not feel like they wasted theirs.
  3. Create alternative ways to earn rep with PVP factions like WSG and ARathi. At present Arathi there are no queues and earning rep with that faction is non-existant. With WSG if all I do is lose it will take 1260 games to get exalted and on average 420 if I do get wins. Timbermaw rep isn't even this hard to grind.
  4. If there are not enough players fix the bug that does not reward a loss token to the "losing team" as 2 flag captures / majority territory captured does result in receiving 3 win tokens.
  5. If possible create a cross faction pvp system to allow for faster queues since the "even" rule is present.

[Leozan]

I don't know if it deserves a big explanation, that's just logical : when you build a server for pve players, it's normal there will be few pvp players. It's like asking why people in a coffee shop, on average, prefer coffee to tea.

I made a clearer example when talking to paw if it helps catch my drift:

"Ok so I always figured that on any server there is a spectrum of players and what they want to do. On one side there’s pure pvp and the other there’s pure pve. Usually there are less players on those extreme ends than there are towards the center.

Since this is a pve server (as you mentioned) I figure the pure pve end of the spectrum has more people, which is fine. My interest are players towards the center that might want to pvp, but have certain reserves enough against it that keep them from participating.

My question is to essentially find out what is stopping those players in the center from participating? What could we change about the system to encourage them to play more often?

Info from those players would be a great asset in making more impactful pvp change."

[Emberlain]

• 1. Remove honor decay it has no place here and never had a place in the real game.
  2. Create a linear progression system based on honor and convert it to XP type system. In this way if you base it on what was needed to achieve High Warlord / Grand Marshal and work backwards from there it will create a system where everyone has the chance to attain the rank but not everyone will want to put in that kinda time. This also allows the people who already made it not feel like they wasted theirs.
  3. Create alternative ways to earn rep with PVP factions like WSG and ARathi. At present Arathi there are no queues and earning rep with that faction is non-existant. With WSG if all I do is lose it will take 1260 games to get exalted and on average 420 if I do get wins. Timbermaw rep isn't even this hard to grind.

I like these ideas. I would also like Honor ranking to be some type of xp system.
I wouldn't mind seeing Hardcore characters be able to play battlegrounds without the fear of dying as well. I understand if that does not sit well with people's idea of a Hardcore experience but practicality and what might be best for the server's lifespan should account for something. Plus, you could make it so Hardcore players can't attain any of the reputation gear or items until level 60. Just something for them to do if they wanted a break from leveling.

An idea for lower level battlegrounds too: What if the turtle mount gave you the base Riding speed from level 40-60 in Battlegrounds that way everyone is on a faster and more even playing field if they don't have a mount right away. Could make some people more apt to try battlegrounds and get slowly introduced to it at a lower level which, in my eyes, is better for them to learn rather than get rolled by epic mount and gear level 60s straight after hitting their level cap.

[Djijin]

I like some of the recent ideas. Allowing some rep grind for the pvp factions in open world (flagged) pvp quests could help pvp participation and RP integration into open word. The end result is the ability to gain some rep rewards and even honor if fights ensue in the open world.

It's entirely optional, and with the lower population, many likely could complete the quests without a single fight or limited interference.

I still believe the extreme differences in power from twinking is still a major barrier to entry for BGs. Many options have been given, but I would stress the importance of gear level restricting enchants. Twinks will still exist, but without level 60 enchants that new players will never compete against. Other professions are gated by level restriction, but not enchanting. I find this extremely odd. Twinking would still exist without it, but the barrier to entry is more extreme with how current enchants work.

[Emberlain]

I still believe the extreme differences in power from twinking is still a major barrier to entry for BGs. Many options have been given, but I would stress the importance of gear level restricting enchants. Twinks will still exist, but without level 60 enchants that new players will never compete against. Other professions are gated by level restriction, but not enchanting. I find this extremely odd. Twinking would still exist without it, but the barrier to entry is more extreme with how current enchants work.

As someone who twinked a lot in Vanilla, this would be a cool change but hard to implement on a server that has been going for three years.

[Markuis]

15. Make a poll/dev post asking people who don’t pvp WHY they don’t participate. Address that problem first before adding new systems.

I'm gonna adress this point right away for you. They don't participate because ours is a PVE/RP server. That means they mostly either don't like the dinamic of pvp or they are not playing efficient enough to partake in that aspect of the game. If you would like further explonation I will gladly adress your questions in private message since that would be off-topic. The 3 main factors are PVE,PVP and RP that compliments this game and since we took out PVP from get go its like asking why volleyball players don't like badminton. Hope the answer if sufficient enough.

Oh but that's not entirely true! This server is not only a PVE/RP server. It has many more features. Which means people is here not only for PVE/RP but also for those other features. That opens a window for people who may like PVP to diferent degrees but accept it's very limited (bgs and arenas only), as they gain in the form of that PVE/RP and/or those other features (like hardcore mode, good community, playing as a Helf...)

So, many people could still like PVP and be here even if there is no PVP.

[Leozan]

I mean the only real difference between a pve and pvp server is just the ability for opposite factions to fight each other openly in contested zones.

Everything else is virtually identical. While some are offering ideas to expand world pvp, the majority of this thread discussion has been around voluntary, instanced pvp.

[Pahacsinta]

One of my friend idea:"You trade I don't know how much bg tokens would be fair for item, that item works like a currency. A coin of sorts. Whenever you collect a certain amount of those coins you may trade them for 1 pvp item, each of them having separate values depending on what you are buying. Rep pvp items can't be obtained in that way
My biggest problem is counting how much what would cost"

[Schwrop]

Maybe somebody wrote this already, but the biggest issue I felt is honor decay. Tried to reach at least rank 13, but the highest I reached was rank 12's 90%. Just 10% was missing to get to rank 13 I aimed for. But then life hit and I didn't have enough time per week to beat the competition and stayed in rank 12 for 6 months by playing enough to keep it there. Was hoping I would eventually go over to rank 13, but had to gave up as I realised I won't make it. Felt like a tragic loss of time.

[Valadorn]

Give Exp REwards for low lvl Battlegrounds

[Gnatz]

As stated somewhere above no penalty for not playing.

But what i would wish for is to go away from battlefields and back to those great slaughters in Cross roads an Hillsbrad and also Raiding the Main cities. I would love to have a mechanic that gives out special rewards for open pvp. Maybe switching every week the zones and to not raid one city or area all the time.

This can be linked to a change of population from horde to ally or the other way and with new quests to solve in that region but changing back at the start of next week.

[Lonjo]

May I present the Fugitive Mode system I’ve been working on, recently UPDATED with more pictures and clearer implementation! Although mostly for allowing “evil” role players to better interact in the world, it also lends itself to an endless game of Bounty Hunter vs Outlaws.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2177

This will mostly effect world pvp for those who want it. With a “capture” mechanic in the works for Bounty Hunters and a great risk vs reward quest system for Fugitives, there are benefits for both sides.

It’s still in development so feel free to post any ideas/concerns about the mode.

[Ashigaru]

With so few ppl pvping ranking has never been easier so PvP gear doesn't seem like too much of a grind but it's just getting the PvP going. PvP is my favourite aspect of wow I also love the books so love getting immersed amongst the world and absolutely love turtle I wouldn't want separate server for PvP just more options to be able to pvp would be epic even an incentive to get more PVE orientated people involved could work. A zone where ppl are flagged could be cool could throw in some custom dailys in the zone

[Pawpaw]

Well, if we were allowed to dream?

First: PvE server does NOT mean "no pvp", it means pvp is limited to battlegrounds and consensual world pvp. A lot of people enjoy this style.

Honestly I think I would go with some improvement to the current system. Many pvp related complaints focus on three things:
(Gear) imbalance. It is never fun to get steamrolled by endgame geared players in your fresh 60 greens. On the other hand, few highly geared players find it fun to steamroll low geared players either. Why would it be?
- PvP like any sport is at it's most fun when it is challenging for both sides. An easy fix could be a battleground vendor, that sells battleground gear, that disappears when you leave the battleground. It could be limited to 5 armor pieces and weapons, unenchanted of course, at AQ40 level. That way new players could fight evenly, and Naxx raiders would get a challenge, though still with a significant handicap, putting them above new players. No one's feelings would get hurt this way

Toxic behavior / Stomping - keeping people locked in battlegrounds by for example not turning in the WSG flag and GY farm the other team.
- Put a timer on WSG (15-20 min) and AV (40-60 min) and let the battle end with no victors if time runs out - 2 marks for each side. This reduces the toxic toolkit inside the battleground, which I think is always good.

Player toxicity - players taking the experience to an uncomfortable level, being verbally aggressive/offensive, or pursuing you outside of battlegrounds to grief.
- There is nothing we can do to improve the player, but in my experience a lot of the offensive behavior stems from the harsh honor grind rules. If you enjoy battlegrounds and accidentally earn more honor than a ranker, you more or less "wasted" a week of the rankers time, and it will take the ranker more time to earn the gear he/she feels entitled to, making certain players very pissy . Or if you for reasons unrelated to the game have to take some time off, you will probably have to start all over. The honor ranking system is unnecessarily punishing. Blizzard knew this, which is why they removed it in TBC. I would wish we could turn this into a better experience that reward effort. The end. No punishment. Also, the cool title of Grand Marshall/High Warlord should be for the best pvper, not whomever need to buy their gear this week! We shouldnt have to stop playing BGs to not hinder someone else's progress. Its ridiculous

I think this could be achieved much like the TBC solved it - by making honor a currency (or battleground marks if its easier). Let people buy their pvp armor/weapons with honor or marks. (If we implement the battleground gear, this would still be rewarding, as people can use them in pve )

While we are at it, I think the reputation from battlegrounds could use a huge boost. (I was Grand Marshall before I was exaulted with Silverwing Sentinels! ). And forget about getting low lvl battleground gear while leveling. I say we could easily boost BG rep with 10x. It would also be nice to be able to trade in marks for other factions, wsg -> ab for example, since wsg is almost the only BG that is played here.

Anyways, those are some of my thoughts

[Jcarrill0]

Pretty sure TBC solved it, But i personally loved the Vanilla PvP System.

If there was a way for TurtleWoW to use the TBC Database, yet still come up with the Vanilla PvP system still in place I wouldn't play anywhere else.