Changing Seal of the Crusader

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Micfild
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Changing Seal of the Crusader

Post by Micfild » Thu Jan 30, 2025 3:32 pm

Its been said a few times already in the turtle wow discord how Seal of the Crusader and Seal of Justice are being considered for future changes. I have no comment about Seal of Justice but i do have a suggestion for Seal of the Crusader (SotC).

With the exception of the aforementioned Seal, all the others have similar effects to their judgements. Righteousness and Command do damage, while light and wisdom will heal or give mana respectively. So my proposal for a change to Seal of the Crusader would be put it in line with this idea.

===============================================
[Suggestion] Seal of the Crusader

Fills the Paladin with the spirit of a crusader for 30 sec, granting X Holy Spell Power. Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time.
Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy for 10 sec, increasing Holy damage taken by up to Z. Your melee strikes will refresh the spell's duration. Only one Judgement per Paladin can be active at any one time.
===============================================

It would be a seal/judgement combo focused on Holy spell power. Simple and flavorful, in my opinion. The overall damage of the paladin would probably be lower for single target than when using Seal of Command or Seal of Righteousness, but can be slightly higher in some circumstances involving hordes of enemies.

In any case, i feel like it would be a more useful version of the seal than the current one.

GL HF! smiling_turtle_head

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Steakhouse
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Re: Changing Seal of the Crusader

Post by Steakhouse » Fri Jan 31, 2025 7:32 am

I kinda like sotc as it is, it's a nice pseudo-fast attack when your target is running and has 1hp. Also useful for leveling weap skills and increasing spell pushback. It has a niche, and as such I wouldn't change it.
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Re: Changing Seal of the Crusader

Post by Atreidon » Fri Jan 31, 2025 8:36 am

While its one of the more flavorful options for the seal, you gain holy spellpower at the cost of your bread and butter spellpower application tool (SoR)

So its just niche use if you aoe and you want neither SoW nor SoL. Which honestly is equally niche to what it currently is.

In fact, i like the current version better, as it has a niche as the only seal useful against spell immune mobs (i know there are like 3 mobs in the wntire game, but still :D)

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Micfild
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Re: Changing Seal of the Crusader

Post by Micfild » Sun Feb 02, 2025 2:23 am

Thats a fair remark. Personally i would just rather have a seal that i can use on multiple occasions (even if its a bit niche) than just having it only really be useful against spell immune mobs. It seemed like a good compromise. A simple seal with a clear design.

Alternatively, because people like procs so much, we could have the seal grant a small amount of flat holy spell power, but with a chance, on every attack, to give a burst of Holy spell power for a few seconds. Very much like Wrath of Cenarius. I think this could also work.

Kord2998
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Re: Changing Seal of the Crusader

Post by Kord2998 » Sun Feb 02, 2025 10:28 am

The attack speed is also pretty useful for when you are nightfalling and want to maximize proc uptime

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Re: Changing Seal of the Crusader

Post by Atreidon » Sun Feb 02, 2025 4:39 pm

Kord2998 wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2025 10:28 am The attack speed is also pretty useful for when you are nightfalling and want to maximize proc uptime
That unfortunately is wrong. Jotc doesnt give you hase, it instead modifies your attackspeed. This includes modifying your procchance downward to equal the same amount of procs than you had if you used no seal.

Considering soc actually can proc weaponhits, youare griefing yourselfby using sotc for nightfall uptime

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Steakhouse
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Re: Changing Seal of the Crusader

Post by Steakhouse » Sun Feb 02, 2025 5:03 pm

Micfild wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2025 2:23 am Thats a fair remark. Personally i would just rather have a seal that i can use on multiple occasions (even if its a bit niche) than just having it only really be useful against spell immune mobs. It seemed like a good compromise. A simple seal with a clear design.

Alternatively, because people like procs so much, we could have the seal grant a small amount of flat holy spell power, but with a chance, on every attack, to give a burst of Holy spell power for a few seconds. Very much like Wrath of Cenarius. I think this could also work.
Why replace SotC though, if you think this is a good seal idea I don't understan dthe need to remove SotC for it, which already has a niche.
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Micfild
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Re: Changing Seal of the Crusader

Post by Micfild » Mon Feb 03, 2025 11:50 pm

Steakhouse wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2025 5:03 pm Why replace SotC though, if you think this is a good seal idea I don't understan dthe need to remove SotC for it, which already has a niche.
Sorry for that. My comment might have been a little confusing. What I meant was that my suggestion has a clear and simple design and is a good replacement, in my opinion, for the current SotC.

Maybe there are people that use or even like the current iteration of SotC, I'm not one of them, and by what i can gather, the general consensus is that the seal is pretty bad and Its due for an overhaul. Same with Seal of Justice, but i have no comment on that one.

My suggestion is drawn based on the following assumptions:

1 - No need for another seal that just "deals damage" as SoR and SoC cover those bases already
2 - The seal design must be simple (no roundabout proc systems that gives % bonus to xyz or mixed damage or some crazy utility spell)
3 - The seal must similar in effect to its judgement (like all the other seals, with the exception of Seal of justice).

=====================
Based on these criteria that i came up with my suggestion. I don't think its a perfect suggestion, by any means, but i do think its a step in the right direction and hopefully will give the devs much food for thought when they decide on reworking this particular seal.

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Re: Changing Seal of the Crusader

Post by Turbosaxophonic » Tue Feb 04, 2025 2:12 am

I think Seal of the Crusader is fine from a design standpoint, its Judgement pairs with Righteousness well early on and the interplay encourages you to switch between the two, the problem is just that it doesn’t have the math or numbers to justify its use in any way. If it isn’t worth using, I think it just needs a buff instead of a total overhaul.

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Micfild
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Re: Changing Seal of the Crusader

Post by Micfild » Tue Feb 04, 2025 1:56 pm

Turbosaxophonic wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 2:12 am I think Seal of the Crusader is fine from a design standpoint, its Judgement pairs with Righteousness well early on and the interplay encourages you to switch between the two, the problem is just that it doesn’t have the math or numbers to justify its use in any way. If it isn’t worth using, I think it just needs a buff instead of a total overhaul.
The judgement part is fine, only the Seal needs to be changed. I believe that the current iteration is beyond redemption, as there are two other seals that do its job (damage) in a much better an flavorful way (SoR and SoC). But if you think this can be saved with a buff, I'm intrigued. What kind of buff and of what magnitude would it be necessary to make it a desirable seal, or at least competitive with the other two?

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Turbosaxophonic
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Re: Changing Seal of the Crusader

Post by Turbosaxophonic » Tue Feb 04, 2025 6:01 pm

Micfild wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 1:56 pm The judgement part is fine, only the Seal needs to be changed. I believe that the current iteration is beyond redemption, as there are two other seals that do its job (damage) in a much better an flavorful way (SoR and SoC). But if you think this can be saved with a buff, I'm intrigued. What kind of buff and of what magnitude would it be necessary to make it a desirable seal, or at least competitive with the other two?
I think the Seal itself fits the flavor of a tireless Crusader and does a good job at embodying the more martial aspect of Paladin. As Atreidon said, a big hindrance of the Seal’s use is some of the under-the-hood workings with how it modifies swing speed instead of haste and doesn’t affect weapon procs. I don’t know if that alone would be enough to push it, but I doubt it also needs the AP reduction to balance the attack speed increase. As far as raw numbers balancing goes, I’m not sure I’m the person to speak on that, most of my concerns center around fundamental designs of the game.

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Steakhouse
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Re: Changing Seal of the Crusader

Post by Steakhouse » Tue Feb 04, 2025 7:07 pm

The thing with your suggestion though is that it completely removes a part of Vanilla class design that objectively has a niche. I'd argue that even simply for conservation of old mechanics (which, undoubtedly, is a big draw of twow, despite the class changes), it should stay as is.

My personal issue with SotC is that it's very hard to understand. Attack power isn't very intuitive to convert to damage, and even have 20 years of wow I'm not sure about how exactly does SotC work. Worse even, the damage reduction makes it negatively synergistic with the new weapon% Crusader Strike. So as Turbo said if SotC is to change I'd greatly prefer a buff, and a clarifying of its tooltip.

Furthermore, your suggestion is so different from SotC's current impl that I don't see the need to remove SotC to make room for your seal. Also, why do Paladins need your seal added to their toolkit ? What problem does it solve ?

Above all: not every spell needs to be meta. SotC is a weird spell that has Vanilla written all over it, AND has the luxury of having niches despite generally underperforming, so I'd prefer to simply not touch it.
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Kobiq
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Re: Changing Seal of the Crusader

Post by Kobiq » Tue Feb 04, 2025 11:07 pm

I always thought it would be awesome idea to move the "holy damage taken increased" to a holy/disc priest for a nice synergy and make judgement of crusader AP retri related (like a chance for additional swing).

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Micfild
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Re: Changing Seal of the Crusader

Post by Micfild » Wed Feb 05, 2025 1:53 am

Steakhouse wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 7:07 pm The thing with your suggestion though is that it completely removes a part of Vanilla class design that objectively has a niche. I'd argue that even simply for conservation of old mechanics (which, undoubtedly, is a big draw of twow, despite the class changes), it should stay as is.
Well, it think it doesn't come as a surprise that I disagree with this particular point of view, since i'm suggesting changes, but it's fine. My main objective was just to present suggestions, not change anyone's opinion on the subject satisfied_turtle_head, so i guess we can leave it at that.
Steakhouse wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 7:07 pm My personal issue with SotC is that it's very hard to understand. Attack power isn't very intuitive to convert to damage, and even have 20 years of wow I'm not sure about how exactly does SotC work. Worse even, the damage reduction makes it negatively synergistic with the new weapon% Crusader Strike. So as Turbo said if SotC is to change I'd greatly prefer a buff, and a clarifying of its tooltip.


As for this part of your comment, I can bring a bit of clarity to the conversation. smiling_turtle_head

SotC has three parts, the attack speed increase, the damage reduction and the attack power bonus. We'll start with the last one.

1 - How Attack power converts into Damage

The formula for AP to DPS is: 14 AP = 1 DPS
Since it increases damage per second and not damage outright, the speed of your weapon is the next key factor to understand how much damage you'll deal per swing.

=================================
Example 1: You have 140 AP = 10 DPS /// Weapon speed 2.0
Since your weapon has a speed of 2.0 your damage per swing will be 10 DPS x 2.0 = 20 damage ----> In this scenario, each weapon swing will deal 20 points of damage

Example 2: You have 140 AP = 10 DPS /// Weapon speed 3.0
Since your weapon has a speed of 3.0 your damage per swing will be 10 DPS x 3.0 = 30 damage ----> In this scenario, each weapon swing will deal 30 points of damage
=================================

What we can see is that slower weapons will deal more damage per attack, but will attack less times in the same amount of time as a faster weapon, meaning the damage of damage you'll output in a given amount of time (lets say 1 minute) would be the same in both cases.

2 - How Haste (attack speed increase) increases damage output

What haste and other attack speed increases do in the game is reduce your weapon cooldown, meaning it will attack faster. It does this modification without changing the value of the base attack speed (which is used in the damage calculation we saw above). This means that the more attack speed your have, the faster you'll hit, but with the same damage per attack as before.

As a quick example, if you manage to acquire a 100% attack speed buff, your 3.0 speed weapon (which was dealing 30 damage) would still deal the same amount of damage, but it would strike every 1.5 seconds instead of 3.0. Effectively doubling your DPS.

Unfortunaly, the increase attack speed that comes with SotC doesn't seem to follow this pattern.

3 - SotC damage reduction.

As Atreidon said:
Atreidon wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2025 4:39 pm That unfortunately is wrong. Jotc doesnt give you hase, it instead modifies your attackspeed.
This means that SotC changes the base attack speed of your weapon, instead of giving you haste. The implication is the same as the AP example, meaning your DPS doesn't change.

=================================
Example 1: You have 140 AP = 10 DPS /// Weapon speed 3.0 /// No Seal of the Crusader
Since your weapon has a speed of 3.0 your damage per swing will be 10 DPS x 3.0 = 30 damage ----> In this scenario, each weapon swing will deal 30 points of damage every 3 seconds.

Example 2: You have 140 AP = 10 DPS /// Weapon speed 3.0 /// With Seal of the Crusader (just the attack speed part)
Since your weapon has a speed of 3.0 and SotC makes you attack 40% faster, this means that your new attack speed for that weapon is 3.0/1.4 = 2.14 . Your damage per swing will be 10 DPS x 2.14 = 21.4 damage ----> In this scenario, each weapon swing will deal 21.4 points of damage every 2.14 seconds.
=================================

This is why it looks like a damage reduction, but the actual DPS remains the same.
Also, since the base attack speed of the weapon was changed, every proc that depended on it (the weapons and effects that have proc per minute (ppm) in them, don't increase or decrease.

4 - Final Thoughts - TLDR

What does the current iteration of SotC actually do?

It gives you a flat amount of AP! That's all!. No new effects or extra synergies.

====================================

I hope this has been informative! GL HF out there! happy_turtle_head

Atreidon
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Re: Changing Seal of the Crusader

Post by Atreidon » Wed Feb 05, 2025 7:12 am

Current SotC gives attackpower, not just the change to attackspeed. So it does actually increase your dps compared to no seal.

So much at least in theory. Since you do have access to seals that usually deal more damage, that reasoning falls flat on its face.

Considering twow also did add a weapon based strike, it becomes pretty irredemable as a dps option with its current functionality.

Next, it might have been useful as an option to maximize the use of judgement of wisdom & light while retaining some semblance of a dps seal. Since both judgement of wisdom got more of his power shifted to the seal part and sor has the ability to proc it too, this incredibly small niche got even smaller.

Lastly it has some niche for things that only count hits against it. Such as spell pushback or viscidus shattering. Very very niche again.

Personally id probably change it to give straight haste instead of attackspeed(with adjusted numbers ofc), but that probably makes it just outcompete soc. Which is the one seal that has to be talented, so it should definitely be a usegul/better option.

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Re: Changing Seal of the Crusader

Post by excin » Wed Feb 05, 2025 9:55 am

+30% attack speed, -30% weapon damage, on hit [ppm based] inflicts a stacking 6 second dot that deals 2% weapon damage as holy damage each 2 seconds up to 5 stacks, hybrid scaling that tilts more to sp.

Judgement remains the same, so that you have push more buttons twisting shit to get out more damage.

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