Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Totally agree with the intention, kinda disagree with the solution.
Been here for 2 months now, BGing always at all brackets (at 40-49now). And tbh, it's just about a few people per "heavy twink" bracket (~4 guys are constantly at 10-19, ~6 at 20-29). So when we speak about "not killing twikining" - the question is "why shouldn't it be killed tho"?
Casual players don't even reg BG's most of the time, because they try it once and never come back there after being stomped by stats. Which just reduces the overall amount of fun they can get out of the game. WoW was, I think, designed as a "all in one" experience, and that "PvP is for PvPies" is kinda a weird idea, that became popular later on, but wasn't around too much during the actual classic. Fun is fun!
Of course, players love different aspects of the game and it's great, but even the most casual and handless player could add smth to the table of their team on BG's, and most of them would love it, at least occasionally. But they're too busy either seeing a grey screen after yet another twink oneshots them, or just avoiding BG's completely.
So out of 5k ppl active online,the BG aspect of the game at 10-29 lvls is sacrificed to 20-30 twinkers TOTAL to tickle their ego. I don't count 30-39 BG's and above, since there it's not such a big deal already. But the problem is - most people ain't even going BG's after they get a taste of it at 10-29, which is fair.
It's bad for both the business and player experience, not worth at all.
BUT, the solution is an invisible wall sort of - enchanting is magic, and magic doesn't obey rules strictly. If it does - it's not a magic anymore. It's killing the Classic vibe for sure.
Plus, if it's done the suggested way - that's gonna hurt PvE/lvling twinks, and those people are not causing any problems really, a lot of people are doing it and tbh it's a fair deal. You go the hard way with your first toon, and then, since you worked hard and got some resources, you can have an easy lvling on an alt as a reward, WITHOUT RUINING the fun for others. Fair and square.
Been here for 2 months now, BGing always at all brackets (at 40-49now). And tbh, it's just about a few people per "heavy twink" bracket (~4 guys are constantly at 10-19, ~6 at 20-29). So when we speak about "not killing twikining" - the question is "why shouldn't it be killed tho"?
Casual players don't even reg BG's most of the time, because they try it once and never come back there after being stomped by stats. Which just reduces the overall amount of fun they can get out of the game. WoW was, I think, designed as a "all in one" experience, and that "PvP is for PvPies" is kinda a weird idea, that became popular later on, but wasn't around too much during the actual classic. Fun is fun!
Of course, players love different aspects of the game and it's great, but even the most casual and handless player could add smth to the table of their team on BG's, and most of them would love it, at least occasionally. But they're too busy either seeing a grey screen after yet another twink oneshots them, or just avoiding BG's completely.
So out of 5k ppl active online,the BG aspect of the game at 10-29 lvls is sacrificed to 20-30 twinkers TOTAL to tickle their ego. I don't count 30-39 BG's and above, since there it's not such a big deal already. But the problem is - most people ain't even going BG's after they get a taste of it at 10-29, which is fair.
It's bad for both the business and player experience, not worth at all.
BUT, the solution is an invisible wall sort of - enchanting is magic, and magic doesn't obey rules strictly. If it does - it's not a magic anymore. It's killing the Classic vibe for sure.
Plus, if it's done the suggested way - that's gonna hurt PvE/lvling twinks, and those people are not causing any problems really, a lot of people are doing it and tbh it's a fair deal. You go the hard way with your first toon, and then, since you worked hard and got some resources, you can have an easy lvling on an alt as a reward, WITHOUT RUINING the fun for others. Fair and square.
Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Dude, you're tying your experience to a patch. Here's my experience on the same WotLK patch. My rogue 69 could kill an enemy twink healer in 3-4 GCDs, despite them trying to protect him. Are we going to keep giving such stupid examples?Xudo wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2024 4:03 pmCan't agree with "equal terms". You can earn much more gold per hour playing lvl 60 than level 19.Bugranger wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2024 1:56 pmEnchantment effects are available to everyone, so everyone is on equal terms. The only question is how much time should be spent not on whining, but on farmingXudo wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2024 6:54 am Imagine you are normal player who is interested in joining bg.
- Hmm. I can join pvp in 10-19 brackets. I think I should prepare somehow. What should I do?
- Fine I leveled to 19, trained all my class spells, bought 10 healing potions, I got 2 speed potions from quest in Barrens, I visited WC and RFC and got some gear there. I also bought some green shoulders with stamina.
- What? Warriors with 2k hp. How did they do this?
- So I have to spend like 400 gold to ENCHNANT my gear to survive at all. Screw this, I'll just go level to 60.
I think it is fine that you stop xp and go dungeons and craft for good gear to prepare. But I absolutely not agree with high level enchants on this gear.
So leveling players have to spend much more time to earn same amount of money.
Even if leveller enchant his items, he will replace them very soon, because he will get new items from quests or late dungeons. So time spent on farming will be wasted.
I personally made pretty good twink and enchanted it as I wanted. But I understand that this power should be nerfed.
I have seen battlegrounds in WotLK. It was constantly popping and full of different people. Why? Because no twink would enter this battleground and normal players decided "hey, I can just join and play".
I really like to play battlegrounds, not just endlessly wait offline with my super gear and worldbuffs. Thats why I think more players should play them. And to achieve that, most important imbalance factor should be eliminated.
Let's be honest, a person who wants to make BG interesting for everyone still tries to put some of their effort into the game. And not just write on the forum expecting the administration to remove all the delights of twinking and then the game will become "better".
Honestly, this is the position of a lazy and dissatisfied player. I see many guys in these brackets getting together in groups and organizing BGs for themselves, and not for farming those people you hide behind.
If you want to make BG really interesting for twink owners and for regular players, make separate grids for people who twink and people who level. But then you will get a division in online in this grid, and also more experienced players will never appear in your group of newbies. New players will reach high lvl just as inexperienced, because all their opponents were just as inexperienced as they are.
Learn to look at the world sensibly, BG assumes confrontation. Any confrontation assembled from random players will be unbalanced, this fact just needs to be taken into account.
Last edited by Bugranger on Sat Jan 18, 2025 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
What solution can you imagine?
You point at dilemma "vanilla heirlooms" vs "fair pvp at low levels".
IIRC, heirlooms in Wrath was not very welcomed by community. Like everyone just ignored the fact that they were present in different form. So I don't think that keeping vanilla heirlooms is important thing. They are used by small minority of players and not very desired as a concept. There are no threads like "make killling low level mobs easier please". Quite the opposite - people complain that leveling is easy and ask for more challenge.
On private servers, you can make characters on different accounts. So if you have high-level character, you already have easier leveling because of high-level help in second window. So you don't need to bother with enchanting your PvE alt character.
If you decided to keep alt and main on same account, you can spend gold on world-drop and crafted BoE blues and greens. There are also world-buffs, which simplify leveling even more and you don't even need high-level to access that power.
Why people enchant their leveling alts afterall? To reduce leveling time. Leveling time consist of killing stuff and running for quests. So if we exclude heirlooms targeted at reducing killing time, another heirlooms can be added to reduce running time or simple xp buffs via enchants.
How do you think that is better for leveling rogue: +2% xp on gloves or +2% of critical strike chance?
What about 100hp or 5% xp enchant on head?
People still like big numbers and easy killing though, so they might not accept that deal.
There still can be problem of "tunnel vision". I mean, people will read patchnotes and see "damage was nerfed" and might miss "running speed was increased" and don't get that both changes are actually connected.
Also, there were already enough complaints regarding "too easy leveling", so those additional enchants might not even be needed at all. Like base player power is already high enough.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.
Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
I actually admire that Murci is doing with Kul'Tiran Navy, but I be honest. I can't do the same. Don't have much time.
I just want to play the fucking game, not the two-faction guild management sim for my single character.
If I have to recruit dozen of people to play warsong, then game system is broken.
You also don't manage horde and alliance pvp guilds simultaneously to ask other players for this. Asking this from every vanilla player is too much.
This will effectively kill twinking. Proven by WotLK.
Yes, I want to have a foot in both camps. I still think that doing dungeons in normal mode (without caring for xp) before going to PvP is good thing and want to keep it.
I don't ask for Team-fortress balance. I ask to eliminate single overpowered game system.
Engineering is ok, blue gear is ok, enchants related to your level is ok.
Naxx shoulder enhant on Rough Bronze Shoulders is NOT ok. I haven't even been in naxx on this server, but got this enchant.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.
Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
My main twink is "finished". I play other characters on lvl 19 too.
This is another problem of low level pvp. You need only Honored to get blue neck and then you don't have reasons to play warsong at all. Mostly because warsong weapons are shit compared even to BoE blue weapons and there is no exalted reward.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.
Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Then everything is clear to me, you have no arguments other than “I think that”, because in 3 pages of this discussion there were no calculations as to why this affects the bracket so much.Xudo wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 5:30 pm I don't ask for Team-fortress balance. I ask to eliminate single overpowered game system.
Engineering is ok, blue gear is ok, enchants related to your level is ok.
Naxx shoulder enhant on Rough Bronze Shoulders is NOT ok. I haven't even been in naxx on this server, but got this enchant.
Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
I don't think you need calculations to figure out how something from the literal highest form of content in the game meant for people at 60 who've grinded for gear and done all that other jazz slapped onto a lvl 19 character alongside all the stuff you can already do to become wrath fucking incarnate isn't broken or unfair.Bugranger wrote: ↑Sun Jan 19, 2025 12:44 pmThen everything is clear to me, you have no arguments other than “I think that”, because in 3 pages of this discussion there were no calculations as to why this affects the bracket so much.Xudo wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 5:30 pm I don't ask for Team-fortress balance. I ask to eliminate single overpowered game system.
Engineering is ok, blue gear is ok, enchants related to your level is ok.
Naxx shoulder enhant on Rough Bronze Shoulders is NOT ok. I haven't even been in naxx on this server, but got this enchant.
Like-... wHaT?
Elmhoof - 60 Boomkin
Tacheka - 41 Melee hunter (Planned secondary main)
Anbone - 36 Shadow Priest (Idk what I'm doing with him)
The laser chicken called to me. And so I answered.
Tacheka - 41 Melee hunter (Planned secondary main)
Anbone - 36 Shadow Priest (Idk what I'm doing with him)
The laser chicken called to me. And so I answered.
Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Ok man I gave it a good thought and I have an answer for you, but my "solution" would probably be hated by literally all sides (which makes it potentially a good one xD).
And just a bit of context - I work in big gamedev/publishing companies literally all my adult life, since 19, so I've seen how things are handled by serious professionals (including MMO PvP issues, in AtcheAge we had a lot of that).
Of course it doesn't make my opinion just right and others wrong, surely doesn't work that way, but I simply trying to apply the same logic we got in other projects. No Pirate's type of ego in here :D
Just the matter of a bit of extra experience, nothing more.
____
So, with that being said - my solution is a bit inspired by retail, but not copypasting it completely to keep up the Turtle spirit.
And it is to create the "PvP level" kind of thing. Practically, it's just another XP bar, in terms of code, but it only counts the PvP activity exp gain, like BG's (amplified x3/x5 at least). It gives "PvP levels" which has one simple use - PvP matchmaking.
So the matchmaking doesn't check the lvl of the character for PvP instances, but the PvP level.
Once the player reaches level (actual level!) 20/30/40/50, the gap between PvP level and normal level is reset, to not create too many gaps in matchmaking (so you get 30, your PvP level becomes 30 as well and get the exp income from here on)
Unlike XP bar itself, it cannot be frozen by any means and even you disable EXP gain, you will still get the EXP for the PVPlvl bar from PvP activities (WITH ONE EXCEPTION).
For casual players - shouldn't make any difference really, they play as it is and there will be no gap in between PvP level/Level for them most of the times.
However, for PvP gigatwinks that will create a soft limit - since BG's are giving EXP on Twow, they will sooner or later "outlevel" their actual level with the PvP level and go in to the next bracket (to die constantly, so they'll have to unfreeze EXP and level further). It shouldn't happen instantly, but shouldn't allow to sit in one bracket for months with one character (so x3/x5/x10 EXP rate is up to debate really). The math here should be around a week or so, going to a couple of weeks on higher levels, per bracket.
Yet those people still can use any kind of enchants and stuff, dominating the newbies to have that type of fun, but AT LEAST there will be a real price for it - you can't just make 1 twink with gigachants on it and terrorize Azarath's good people from it for years. Some people will probably do it anyway, but it will become way more costly. You get the point.
THE EXCEPTION - is a glyph (idk like a "Glyph of Pure War") that COMPLETELY freezes the character's level AND PvP level FOREVER, but disables ANY ENCHANTS for the character. From the code side of things, I'm pretty sure it's possible to just make that type of characters not be able to put on themself any item with any enchant/modifier.
So, people who really love low lvl PvP for any reason, will also have a fair deal in having their fun. They can still farm BIS items/get cheesy profession things/potions etc, but without all the enchants - they won't be such a pain in the ass for others.
So here we go, a bit overcomplicated for sure, but it would solve multiple issues with one hit. The PvP levels thingy can be further used for PvP rewards, not only on 60, but during the whole journey of both that PvP twink (like when you go further than your actual level with the pvp level you get a funny chest with some possible toys or something like that), and even casual PvP players (bringing some of the classic honor items back, making PVP lvl required to even buy them = more casuals on BG's, which must the be ultimate aim tbh).
Glyphed ones can have their leaderboards SPECIFIC to their PvP level (and since they are the only ones actually stuck there, it will be a fair competition)
And normies could finally play some BG's, without being stomped by yet another crusader's enjoyer.
Yeah, as I said, there's something for everyone to hate about it xD
Last edited by ZacRosh on Tue Jan 21, 2025 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Your pvp levels proposal looks very much like ranking system. With differences:
1. No rank limits for each level (currently at lvl 19 you can have only rank 3)
2. Rank reset at start of each bracket (no rank reset now)
3. Rank is used for matchmaking (no matchmaking now)
Problem is: if you have too few people, then you either end up with "no people in queue" or "low rank still matched with high rank because no people to match with".
I assume that game should not expand rank bracket to make match at minimum amount of people.
As a result - twinks will stay without battlegrounds and will kinda forced to use "no enchants" glyph.
As a side result - normal players will stay without battlegrounds too, because twinks are main reason why those battlegrounds ever happen.
TBH, any matchmaking sounds too complex to be ever implemented.
Though you give one good idea - enchants should be disabled if you stop xp. I imagine that this is very easy to implement. PvE twinks with heirlooms are satisfied - they can enjoy powerful enchants on low level gear and still able to level with it.
This should be accompanied with xp from killing in PvP, otherwise ancient finished twinks will just "fine, I start xp because I don't care".
And this should not be possible with Turtle glyph. It allows you to lose xp on death. So you can grind xome xp in bg, exit, do several naked suicides and reset your current xp to 0.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.
Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Probably we have a bit of misunderstanding here. Since every 10 actual lvls the PvP level is being adjusted, the amount of people for bracket should be the same. For example, we take a 30-39 BG, everyone who got lvl 30 get a PvPlvl30 automatically and therefor they're eligible to join in the que at the current bracket instantly. So at the end of the day - we have about the same amount of people for PvP queues.Problem is: if you have too few people, then you either end up with "no people in queue" or "low rank still matched with high rank because no people to match with"
Main purpose here is to push someone to the bracket upwards, when needed (twinks). With auto adjusting - shouldn't work in both directions.
But yeah, my proposal is clearly a bit complicated and pretty much is a re-vamp of PvP system.
Not so sure about freezing exp = no working enchants without a glyph option, gonna be more complicated technically. Plus, you can just turn XP off as soon as BG is over, and even if the mechanism works well and all items went in to bags - you could totally fight the whole battle with them on.
Might provoke a lot of cheese, in other words.
But hey, I love that our discussion is leading towards some reasonable conclusions, lovely stuff. btw man, do you know if the turtle team even checks the forum? I imagine we're just talking between ourselves here, which is not the worst thing tbh
Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Difference is in situation of "too few players". Will matchmaking strictly exclude players with high(or low) rank if there are not enough players?ZacRosh wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2025 5:11 pmProbably we have a bit of misunderstanding here. Since every 10 actual lvls the PvP level is being adjusted, the amount of people for bracket should be the same. For example, we take a 30-39 BG, everyone who got lvl 30 get a PvPlvl30 automatically and therefor they're eligible to join in the que at the current bracket instantly. So at the end of the day - we have about the same amount of people for PvP queues.Problem is: if you have too few people, then you either end up with "no people in queue" or "low rank still matched with high rank because no people to match with"
Main purpose here is to push someone to the bracket upwards, when needed (twinks). With auto adjusting - shouldn't work in both directions.
I'll try an example. rank=pvp level ranging from 1 to 14. at each x0 level your rank resets to 1.
Wsg requires 3 players to start and can hold up to 10 players.
Scenario A.
If wsg queue at lvl 19 looks like: faction 1 (3 levelers of rank 1, 1 glyphed twink of rank 1, 1 gigatwink of rank 9), faction 2 (3 levelers of rank 1, 1 glyphed twink of rank 1, 1 gigatwink of rank 9)
I assume in your model people should be matched like: faction 1 (3 levelers, 1 glyphed twink), faction 2 (3 levelers, 1 glyphed twink).
If queue looks like: faction 1 (2 players of rank 1-5, 3 players of rank 9), faction 2 (2 players of rank 1-5, 3 players of rank 9), then they should be matched like: faction 1 (3 players of rank 9), faction 2 (3 players of rank 9).
if queue looks like: faction 1 (20 players of rank 1-5, 20 players of rank 9-14), faction 2 (20 players of rank 1-5, 20 players of rank 9-14),
then match will be:
faction 1(10 players of rank 1-5), faction 2(10 players of rank 1-5)
faction 1(10 players of rank 1-5), faction 2(10 players of rank 1-5)
faction 1(10 players of rank 9-14), faction 2(10 players of rank 9-14)
faction 1(10 players of rank 9-14), faction 2(10 players of rank 9-14)
Scenario B
If wsg queue at lvl 19 looks like: faction 1 (3 levelers of rank 1, 1 glyphed twink of rank 1, 1 gigatwink of rank 9), faction 2 (3 levelers of rank 1, 1 glyphed twink of rank 1, 1 gigatwink of rank 9)
they will be matched like: faction 1 (all), faction 2 (all).
If queue looks like: faction 1 (2 players of rank 1-5, 3 players of rank 9), faction 2 (2 players of rank 1-5, 3 players of rank 9), then they should be matched like: faction 1 (all), faction 2 (all).
if queue looks like: faction 1 (20 players of rank 1-5, 20 players of rank 9-14), faction 2 (20 players of rank 1-5, 20 players of rank 9-14),
then match will be: (just like before)
faction 1(10 players of rank 1-5), faction 2(10 players of rank 1-5)
faction 1(10 players of rank 1-5), faction 2(10 players of rank 1-5)
faction 1(10 players of rank 9-14), faction 2(10 players of rank 9-14)
faction 1(10 players of rank 9-14), faction 2(10 players of rank 9-14)
Yeah. Details are really complicated and sometimes obscure.
I believe that patchnotes title "we nerfed all twinks" will be more appealing than "we reworked matchmaking so you meet twinks less often and it will be too costly to make one often".
Regarding the devs reading forum, I don't know for sure. They surely don't monitor it 24/7, because it leads to severe procrastination and brain rot (from some suggestions around).
But they do read some hot threads and change some stuff.
I too appreciate reasonable discussion. Don't know, will it change something, but it was interesting for sure.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.
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Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level
This, very much this.Markuis wrote: ↑Mon Oct 10, 2022 10:58 amNice joke... It's fun for the twink, he can destroy casual players. It would be different if there was a twink only bg with boosted honor gains. I suspect only twinks worry about enchants tho, and not someone who is leveling and will try to get better equipment as soon as posible.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Petopia-Style Turtle WoW Book of Pets
Petopia-Style Turtle WoW Book of Pets