What exactly does a shaman tank lack?

jmwg
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What exactly does a shaman tank lack?

Post by jmwg » Tue Dec 17, 2024 8:54 pm

What exactly does a shaman tank lack?
Let's see what other tanks have:
Warrior: Anger system, can actively gain maximum health,
actively gain high damage reduction,
group taunt, destroy enemy armor to provide themselves with hatred.
No mp value does not need to do floor reply.
A druid:
Anger system, can actively gain maximum health, actively gain high damage reduction, group taunt, destroy enemy armor. Has high health and armor and talents to resist upcoming crushing and critical attacks. No mp value does not need to do floor reply.
Paladin: New shield wall, new T2 and T3 level equipment, immunity to crush and critical strike.
There is no shortage of mp through the Seal of Wisdom and Judgment of Wisdom.
The group pull effect is very good
ok, let me go back to the shaman:
No active harm reduction skills,
used in situations where accidents can occur.
Too high an mp cost to sustain a group of monsters.(Lava totem causes about half as much hate as Knight devotion).
None of them have better health, armor, blocking, and dodging than any other tank.
T2.5 reduces spell damage taken, but all tanks can solve some problems by stacking single resistance dead_turtle_head s, such as fire resistance.
Lack of T2 and T3 equipment support.
As far as I can think, the advantage of shaman tanks, long-range use of lightning arrows to shoot monsters, oh shit, let the hunters do it!
As a shaman tank, what strengths should I use to join the NAXX team? crying_turtle

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Mimiwarmini
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Re: What exactly does a shaman tank lack?

Post by Mimiwarmini » Wed Dec 18, 2024 9:02 am

You are not talking about the Stoneclaw Totem which considerably increases the area threat, coupled with Nova Fire Totem and Magma Totem you generate a considerable threat,

you also don't talk about the fact that the shaman tank can do as much damage as a dps la or a fury/prot does much less,

The fact that the sham tank is mana is an advantage and a disadvantage,

an advantage because he can cast all these spells from the start and does not risk having problems linked to a lack of resources

a disadvantage because when he has more mana, he has more mana even if we regenerate quite well we can end up oom, in this case only consumption can save us

the sham tank has the greatest arsenal to counter magic damage with these talents which reduces by 20% (25% with t2.5) in addition to being able to place magic resistance totems,

he also has two ways of being able to cut cast a spell, one with Earth shock the other with Grouding Totem which is often forgotten by many

in short the list is still long but before burying this class, there is still a lot to discover about the advantages of a sham tank in raid

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Re: What exactly does a shaman tank lack?

Post by amanagor » Wed Dec 18, 2024 9:21 am

the shaman tank spec was never intended by devs to be used in raids. Its meant to make up for a lack of people queuing up as tanks in dungeons while leveling and at 60. Shaman tank is ment to tank to 60 , and in dungeons to gear up others for raids, and then respec to resto for raids. This is by design. The reason devs chose to sacrifice shamans to make up for lack of tanks in lower level content, in the 17.2 changes, is because devs dislike shaman, and don't want to see it perform in end game content for anything other than spamming chainheal, so they didn't mind sacrificing all the dev time dedicated to enha, to give it a tanking spec only viable for dungeons, instead of making existing specs better for raids.
Last edited by amanagor on Wed Dec 18, 2024 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

Akos1896
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Re: What exactly does a shaman tank lack?

Post by Akos1896 » Wed Dec 18, 2024 9:22 am

Hmm.
* As a mana user, real longevity. Consumes can help but water shield as a mana recharge mechanic is not strong enough to support having a rotation for a longer time, specially if you need to switch to lightning or earth shield.

* Either a defensive CD or a trinket slot (if we use the Hakkar trinket as defensive CD)

* Def from talents and items - availability of tanking mail items in general pre T2,5.

* Early game mitigation. Still the worse at lategame but talents like spirit shield scale nicely to compensate.

* Aoe taunt but I don't think they need aoe taunt.

* Threatmeter addon tank mode actually working if you use a shaman.

* The 'WF' dilemma. Your biggest party utility disables a big defensive utility 'agi totem'. In dungeons it also raises melee threat you gotta overthreat. For the whole enh tree, WF totem works like an 'alien body'.

* High nat or fire rez mobs can be annoying but are not impossible.

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Re: What exactly does a shaman tank lack?

Post by Noce » Wed Dec 18, 2024 9:29 am

having a devide ES into Wind Shear and ES will help.
make WS with increased threat.
this way mbe with both spells used on target we get more threat.

give us Shamanistic Rage in some way or form.
if we get a blizz like then it would help with both dmg reduction and mana regeneration.
but as i sed in any way or form. in talents or base spell. to give us dmg reduction or absorbtion.

and also good idea would be that Fire Nova Totem become a normal aoe spell instead of totem.
that would help with aoe threat even more.

++ mbe give us more defence from talents somehow

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Re: What exactly does a shaman tank lack?

Post by Akos1896 » Wed Dec 18, 2024 9:36 am

amanagor wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 9:21 am Your quote.
I agree but it always made me mad a little.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy shaman tanking and I was not expecting it to have real support with cc2.
But what TWOW did here is instead of fully dedicating the tree to one spec which in turn can be interesting and competitive, we have 2 not finished specs here and all of this not for the interests of the class itself but to solve an outside problem (LFT).
With bad language, you can say that enh tree was sacrificed to solve a server problem and people are celebrating like yay, earthshaker slam can taunt.
Enh tree is just not feral tree. Rockbiter won't give you a bunch of free armor and stamina plus some rockbiter-only abilities, all has to be derived from the tree itself.

Don't get me wrong, I love shaman tanking but there's a reason I didn't expect shaman tank support from CC2 -> fully working and fun enhancement DPS was the prio in my eyes.
It's just that more prople like enh DPS than shaman tank and I can respect that.
But now that TWOW basically cut the enh tree in two halves and made it into a feral tree, they have the responsibility to make both builds viable and interesting. Otherwise they just sacced enh tree for the in-game LFT problem while refusing further support for (half of) them to stay relevant which seems like handling enh players as tools.

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Re: What exactly does a shaman tank lack?

Post by Xudo » Wed Dec 18, 2024 9:43 am

Akos1896 wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 9:36 amto solve an outside problem (LFT).
I doubt that enh was given ability to tank just to solve LFT "lack of tanks" problem. There are too few tanks because there are too few people willing to tank. There are more than enough classes and specs who could tank, but players don't want it.
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Re: What exactly does a shaman tank lack?

Post by Akos1896 » Wed Dec 18, 2024 10:48 am

I'd like to agree but I can't.
Heard the same statement (shaman tank was designed for dungeons, not for raids) from a green name before. It is true that T2,5 got a tank build but counting the purples, that's all. No ZG or AQ20 set f.ex. to help you do the early raids.
It also explains the total lack of defense in talents, since it is mostly a raid stat and the lack of defensive CD, since it's only really necessary during raids in PVE.
It's not TWOW design to create a build and tell them that right, at this point, you expire. TWOW made a special effort to uplift those 'half-builds' from Vanilla (think about ret/prot pala, arcane mage, moonkin).
The only reason I can see them creating such a limited build is by necessity, to solve a greater problem.
I have no numbers of queue time changes, I admit. Leveled a tank since cc2. But I saw many shammies with a shield and tanking talents, most of whom would have probably played as enh DPS.

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Re: What exactly does a shaman tank lack?

Post by Xudo » Wed Dec 18, 2024 11:17 am

Tanking talents won't help "lack of tanks" LFT problem for a long term.
Right now, queue times might be lower, but it can be just because people want to try new build.
What is really matter is "will enhs be able to tank without specific tanking talents".
Your basic toolkit matters more than talents, because during leveling, very few people will invest to specific talents.
Thats why I think that tanking talents were aimed to raid tanking.

I assume, main problem of enhs in role of tanks was lack of mana-sustain. It was greatly improved by mana-shield and Lightning Strike. You also get "defensive stance" in form of Rockbiter. So I think that this goal was successfully achieved. Baseline taunt also helped very much.

20 defense in talents won't really help you to build raid-viable tank. Warriors and paladins deal with criticals and crushing by pushing them out of attack table by high block chance.
Capping defense is "TBC" way of gearing.
Crushing blows are more common than critical blows in PvE. Iirc there is like 15%-25% chance to get crushing blow. This can actually be solved easily by adding "reduce chance to get crushing blow to 0%" effect to water shield. Players don't deal crushing blows, so it won't affect PvP at all.

Lack of emergency CD is true. But I am afraid, such feature could cause "overpowered in PvP" problem. Regardless of whether it is true or not. Imo, shamans deserve good defensive toolkit because paladins got good offensive abilities.
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Re: What exactly does a shaman tank lack?

Post by Reploidrocsa » Wed Dec 18, 2024 3:47 pm

What's floor reply?

jmwg
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Re: What exactly does a shaman tank lack?

Post by jmwg » Wed Dec 18, 2024 5:07 pm

Akos1896 wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 10:48 am I'd like to agree but I can't.
Heard the same statement (shaman tank was designed for dungeons, not for raids) from a green name before. It is true that T2,5 got a tank build but counting the purples, that's all. No ZG or AQ20 set f.ex. to help you do the early raids.
It also explains the total lack of defense in talents, since it is mostly a raid stat and the lack of defensive CD, since it's only really necessary during raids in PVE.
It's not TWOW design to create a build and tell them that right, at this point, you expire. TWOW made a special effort to uplift those 'half-builds' from Vanilla (think about ret/prot pala, arcane mage, moonkin).
The only reason I can see them creating such a limited build is by necessity, to solve a greater problem.
I have no numbers of queue time changes, I admit. Leveled a tank since cc2. But I saw many shammies with a shield and tanking talents, most of whom would have probably played as enh DPS.
Do I get T2.5 from Angela just to return to the dungeon? Please sad_turtle_head , I'm already in Angela. I'm sure the makers have bigger plans. Can design turtle suits unique shaman tanks

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Re: What exactly does a shaman tank lack?

Post by jmwg » Wed Dec 18, 2024 5:09 pm

Xudo wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 11:17 am Tanking talents won't help "lack of tanks" LFT problem for a long term.
Right now, queue times might be lower, but it can be just because people want to try new build.
What is really matter is "will enhs be able to tank without specific tanking talents".
Your basic toolkit matters more than talents, because during leveling, very few people will invest to specific talents.
Thats why I think that tanking talents were aimed to raid tanking.

I assume, main problem of enhs in role of tanks was lack of mana-sustain. It was greatly improved by mana-shield and Lightning Strike. You also get "defensive stance" in form of Rockbiter. So I think that this goal was successfully achieved. Baseline taunt also helped very much.

20 defense in talents won't really help you to build raid-viable tank. Warriors and paladins deal with criticals and crushing by pushing them out of attack table by high block chance.
Capping defense is "TBC" way of gearing.
Crushing blows are more common than critical blows in PvE. Iirc there is like 15%-25% chance to get crushing blow. This can actually be solved easily by adding "reduce chance to get crushing blow to 0%" effect to water shield. Players don't deal crushing blows, so it won't affect PvP at all.

Lack of emergency CD is true. But I am afraid, such feature could cause "overpowered in PvP" problem. Regardless of whether it is true or not. Imo, shamans deserve good defensive toolkit because paladins got good offensive abilities.
What is lacking is not tanks, what is lacking is players

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Re: What exactly does a shaman tank lack?

Post by jmwg » Wed Dec 18, 2024 5:27 pm

Mimiwarmini wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 9:02 am You are not talking about the Stoneclaw Totem which considerably increases the area threat, coupled with Nova Fire Totem and Magma Totem you generate a considerable threat,

you also don't talk about the fact that the shaman tank can do as much damage as a dps la or a fury/prot does much less,

The fact that the sham tank is mana is an advantage and a disadvantage,

an advantage because he can cast all these spells from the start and does not risk having problems linked to a lack of resources

a disadvantage because when he has more mana, he has more mana even if we regenerate quite well we can end up oom, in this case only consumption can save us

the sham tank has the greatest arsenal to counter magic damage with these talents which reduces by 20% (25% with t2.5) in addition to being able to place magic resistance totems,

he also has two ways of being able to cut cast a spell, one with Earth shock the other with Grouding Totem which is often forgotten by many

in short the list is still long but before burying this class, there is still a lot to discover about the advantages of a sham tank in raid
Face multiple enemies. My idea is that seismic damage is reduced by 50%, hatred is increased by 50%, causing a 20-yard aftershock. This range generates hatred. Can only interrupt the current target. Reduce totems. A long range group damage ability can be a feature of Shaman tanks. At the same time will not affect PVP. He can be put in the enhanced second row as a talent ----->TOTEMIC ALIGNMENT.
You can't make other players wait for the tank to sit on the ground and eat and drink. scared_turtle

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Re: What exactly does a shaman tank lack?

Post by Bigsmerf » Wed Dec 18, 2024 5:44 pm

amanagor wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 9:21 am the shaman tank spec was never intended by devs to be used in raids. Its meant to make up for a lack of people queuing up as tanks in dungeons while leveling and at 60. Shaman tank is ment to tank to 60 , and in dungeons to gear up others for raids, and then respec to resto for raids. This is by design. The reason devs chose to sacrifice shamans to make up for lack of tanks in lower level content, in the 17.2 changes, is because devs dislike shaman, and don't want to see it perform in end game content for anything other than spamming chainheal, so they didn't mind sacrificing all the dev time dedicated to enha, to give it a tanking spec only viable for dungeons, instead of making existing specs better for raids.
Viable and optimal are different things my dude.
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Re: What exactly does a shaman tank lack?

Post by Akos1896 » Wed Dec 18, 2024 6:22 pm

I try to phrase what I think very cautiously, I have no intention to be hurtful to anyone.
In my opinion, half of a tree was sacrificed (maybe rather 30%) to make a viable tanking option for dungeoning, without real later support (talent-wise or gear-wise), except for that random T2,5 set.
I see Xudo's point but I stand by my belief that LFT was in a gruesome state with the waiting times and allowing another class to tank properly made the waiting times somewhat more bearable (tbh I have no statistical data).
BUT
It was done by sacrificing the completeness of enh DPS (they are an interesting build now built around being oom) - the talents for tanking could be replaced by new talents, enabling upkeeping your rotation for a whole bossfight for example.
But no, enh DPS didn't get enough talents to work consistently.
I mean, even abominations like ancestral knowledge prove this. The devs were like 'this DPS build doesn't work, let's just give them the most OP stat buff talent, maybe it will balance things out'. (It buffs 10% each stat after modifiers despite what it says.). Despite this, balance was not achieved.

The other way to go around it would have been the 'feral method', sneaking in more modifiers behind rockbiter, maybe a shaman ability which requires rockbiter etc. And then having enough talent slots to include things like a def CD. This option would have been about making both builds good.

But neither happened.
I still love tank shaman, don't get me wrong.
But mana management, despite shields and LS is only good if you are not forced to keep up your rotation for a longer time. Even using mana shields and giving up TPS, mana is a problem. Maximizing TPS with lightning shield makes mana go down to 0 really fast.

How I see this:
To appeal a minority of players and to make LFT less of a pain, TWOW decided to host two builds mostly under enhancement tree (and some ele).
This was not an expectation by the gaming community, people expected a good enh.
Even tank shaman fans (most of them at least) weren't expecting this, they have accepted prior that their build is a meme and went on using oil of immolation etc to cheeze things into a semi-workable category. Then, the expectation of the shaman tanks were so low that it was just a challenge. Those guys, if asked for changes before CC2 mostly mentioned things like 'please add a next level of earth shock that taunts'.
But TWOW gave so much boost to the tank archetype that their are not jokes/challenge materials anymore.
They moved from the joke category to the inferior category where they represent the functional but worse tanking option. Tanking as a shaman is no longer an incredible challenge. You do it, it's totally manageable and the end result is just a worse pala, bear or warrior 99% of the time.

So people were expecting 1 thing from enh tree: good enh.
LFT needed a way to reduce waiting time.
TWOW gave enh two roles:
'oom enh' and 'where defensive?' tank.
Which would have been fine if enh and tank were fun and good.
Not meta-breaking, but moving up from meme category to the inferior category just makes all the challenge and fun disappear and you're left with a boring option producing annoying numbers.
Maybe people wanting to spam SM wait 5 mins shorter in average.
I know, shaman is a utility powerhouse etc but TWOW itself showed via the paladins that you can be a utility powerhouse, a fun class to play and a totally viable option. Not hating on paladins here, good paladin players are usually amongst my fav people on the server, just behind those happy dwarven hunters.

Now challenge tanking is rogue, hunter, warlock and even priest.
Shaman is just a boring option which does the job but everyone secretly wishes you were a bear, a warrior or a pala. Unless you drop WF then lose threat to the melee all the time.
But all good, LFT waiting times are a bit shorter, right?

I'm happy that shaman tanks exist, however I didn't expect it to happen. But if you decided to make this move, go all the way long. Make both DPS and tank both fun and viable.

Thank you.

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Re: What exactly does a shaman tank lack?

Post by J0rsche » Wed Dec 18, 2024 7:54 pm

Stamina. Shaman already tanked KT on tel abim get good.

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Re: What exactly does a shaman tank lack?

Post by Xudo » Thu Dec 19, 2024 9:29 am

Akos1896 wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 6:22 pm The other way to go around it would have been the 'feral method', sneaking in more modifiers behind rockbiter, maybe a shaman ability which requires rockbiter etc. And then having enough talent slots to include things like a def CD. This option would have been about making both builds good.
Those "imbue-requirement" abilities in talent along Stormstrike. Like it is done in Elemental Weapons.
Like "if your imbue is WF, you can do SS", "if your imbue is Rockbiter, you can do something else".
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
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Re: What exactly does a shaman tank lack?

Post by Akos1896 » Thu Dec 19, 2024 9:38 am

Xudo wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 9:29 am
Akos1896 wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 6:22 pm The other way to go around it would have been the 'feral method', sneaking in more modifiers behind rockbiter, maybe a shaman ability which requires rockbiter etc. And then having enough talent slots to include things like a def CD. This option would have been about making both builds good.
Those "imbue-requirement" abilities in talent along Stormstrike. Like it is done in Elemental Weapons.
Like "if your imbue is WF, you can do SS", "if your imbue is Rockbiter, you can do something else".
As long as things don't get overly complicated and won't break balance, I'd like that. As a tank or enh DPS, switching to different imbues at critical times for different ability sets could mean a nice tactical advantage.

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Re: What exactly does a shaman tank lack?

Post by Kerenis » Fri Dec 20, 2024 12:02 am

Tank classes should have crush immunity available on talent tree, not on gear. Another server had this point covered perfectly

CC2 tried to make shaman a mix from a block pally and a dodge bear, but it lacks pallys defense gear and the huge stamina/armor of bears, and ofc none of their "oh crap" CDs

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Re: What exactly does a shaman tank lack?

Post by Geojak » Fri Dec 20, 2024 12:17 am

Get the chest from gazranka in zuk farrak and you can even tank twins with it. Use before nerf

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Re: What exactly does a shaman tank lack?

Post by Xudo » Fri Dec 20, 2024 6:11 am

Geojak wrote: Fri Dec 20, 2024 12:17 am Get the chest from gazranka in zuk farrak and you can even tank twins with it. Use before nerf
??
Gaz'ranka is in Zul'Gurub and it doesn't have chest in loot.
If you mean Gahz'rilla, then chest is +23 stamina, 14 nature spell damage and 3 lightning damage to attacks.
Is it OP because of lightning damage?
In this case you can just buy Thunder Lizard's Hide from Razzle Longpipe and enjoy same effect without sacrificing statbudged of a chest.
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Re: What exactly does a shaman tank lack?

Post by Akos1896 » Fri Dec 20, 2024 7:46 am

I think he attempted humor

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Re: What exactly does a shaman tank lack?

Post by Mimiwarmini » Fri Dec 20, 2024 7:54 am

Kerenis wrote: Fri Dec 20, 2024 12:02 am Tank classes should have crush immunity available on talent tree, not on gear. Another server had this point covered perfectly

CC2 tried to make shaman a mix from a block pally and a dodge bear, but it lacks pallys defense gear and the huge stamina/armor of bears, and ofc none of their "oh crap" CDs
Indeed you are right on this point there is a lack of defense on the shaman, but it is not important to the extent that the threat generated is superior to the other class as well as its capacity to absorb magical damage

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Re: What exactly does a shaman tank lack?

Post by Kerenis » Fri Dec 20, 2024 9:00 am

Mimiwarmini wrote: Fri Dec 20, 2024 7:54 am Indeed you are right on this point there is a lack of defense on the shaman, but it is not important to the extent that the threat generated is superior to the other class as well as its capacity to absorb magical damage
Definitely threat is not the problem. I feel I do better AoE aggro than pally. Stoneclaw+Magma totem is fantastic

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Re: What exactly does a shaman tank lack?

Post by Geojak » Fri Dec 20, 2024 10:39 am

Xudo wrote: Fri Dec 20, 2024 6:11 am
Geojak wrote: Fri Dec 20, 2024 12:17 am Get the chest from gazranka in zuk farrak and you can even tank twins with it. Use before nerf
??
Gaz'ranka is in Zul'Gurub and it doesn't have chest in loot.
If you mean Gahz'rilla, then chest is +23 stamina, 14 nature spell damage and 3 lightning damage to attacks.
Is it OP because of lightning damage?
In this case you can just buy Thunder Lizard's Hide from Razzle Longpipe and enjoy same effect without sacrificing statbudged of a chest.
I think it also has over 800 armor. Our shaman used the item on twins tanking yesterday

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Re: What exactly does a shaman tank lack?

Post by Akos1896 » Fri Dec 20, 2024 10:58 am

No, around 230. I have it on my alt shaman. If it's the ZulFarak sea monster chest item.

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Re: What exactly does a shaman tank lack?

Post by Poqoq » Tue Feb 04, 2025 12:31 pm

We could really use a small short cd defensive cd. Both other shield wearing classes have short cd ability that incrases block value. Wariors have shield block: 100% block for 2 attacks and pallys have holy shield: +45% block for 4 attacks.
I was thinking of relic item(totem) of earth shield that would increase your block chance by 3% for each earth shield charge left. Now 27% block with no cd and duration might seem alot , but it wouldnt put shammys to 100% avoidence anyways and each hit you take reduces your block by 3% + you realisticly wont be able to keep earth shield up and refresh it due to mana reasons, you need to sit in water shield most of the fight anyway and treat that ability as defensive cd , not as something you sit whole fight in.You could maybe lower it to 2% and make it drop from one of the lvl 60 dungeons as we need more tank sham gear in early game, not from high end raids. I knoww its an item but at leasst it would be something and there is no totem in the game yet that interacts with earth shield.

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Re: What exactly does a shaman tank lack?

Post by Atreidon » Tue Feb 04, 2025 12:53 pm

Poqoq wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 12:31 pm We could really use a small short cd defensive cd. Both other shield wearing classes have short cd ability that incrases block value. Wariors have shield block: 100% block for 2 attacks and pallys have holy shield: +45% block for 4 attacks.
I was thinking of relic item(totem) of earth shield that would increase your block chance by 3% for each earth shield charge left. Now 27% block with no cd and duration might seem alot , but it wouldnt put shammys to 100% avoidence anyways and each hit you take reduces your block by 3% + you realisticly wont be able to keep earth shield up and refresh it due to mana reasons, you need to sit in water shield most of the fight anyway and treat that ability as defensive cd , not as something you sit whole fight in.You could maybe lower it to 2% and make it drop from one of the lvl 60 dungeons as we need more tank sham gear in early game, not from high end raids. I knoww its an item but at leasst it would be something and there is no totem in the game yet that interacts with earth shield.
Blockchance effects such as holy shield and shieldblock are actually only useful because of two things.
1. They trigger knock on effects you want. For paladin that is blessing of sacntuary's and holy shields innate damage reflection and in warriors case its access th revenge.
2. Against mobs where crits and crushing hits are an immediate danger. So these spells allow you to get crush capped.

A Blockchace effect that does help you with neither of those scenarios might as well not exist. Blocking 50 dmg from a level 60 dungeonmob is absolutely inconsequential.
And with less than 40% blockchance it wont help saveguard against crits or crushes in most scenarios

Poqoq
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Re: What exactly does a shaman tank lack?

Post by Poqoq » Tue Feb 04, 2025 3:05 pm

it wouldnt push crushing blows completly but it would still translate into taking way less crushing blows if your avoience is 50% and the boss rolls 100sided die, any rolls between 1-50 are guaranteed not crushig blows, with +27% block now also any rolls of 51-77 are also guaranteed not crushing blows, thats better than non existing.
Fine then make it give X armor for each charge if you dont like my idea.

Atreidon
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Re: What exactly does a shaman tank lack?

Post by Atreidon » Tue Feb 04, 2025 3:17 pm

Poqoq wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 3:05 pm it wouldnt push crushing blows completly but it would still translate into taking way less crushing blows if your avoience is 50% and the boss rolls 100sided die, any rolls between 1-50 are guaranteed not crushig blows, with +27% block now also any rolls of 51-77 are also guaranteed not crushing blows, thats better than non existing.
Fine then make it give X armor for each charge if you dont like my idea.
That is NOT how the classic attacktable works.
You start filling from 0%
Add all the effects beneficial to the defender (dodge parry block, miss, glance)
And then fill all the remaining slots with effects beneficial to the attacker (Crit & Crush).
The rest you fill up with white hits.

Considering boss mobs have ~6% crit and a 15% chance to crush.
Unless you reach over 79% combined dodge parry block & miss, block chance will NEVER prevent any crush/crit from occuring nor reduce their damage

Max armor is much more linearly useful, so that is more easily implementable

Poqoq
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Re: What exactly does a shaman tank lack?

Post by Poqoq » Tue Feb 04, 2025 3:31 pm

So if i bring my avoidence to excatcly 79%, the boss attack will either miss me/block or will be crushing/crit??
Isnt it first it checks if attack is a hit or not and then there is 15% to crush and 6% to crit?

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Bigsmerf
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Re: What exactly does a shaman tank lack?

Post by Bigsmerf » Tue Feb 04, 2025 3:34 pm

And despite all it lacks, it's still viable in Naxx.
Elmhoof - 60 Boomkin
Tacheka - 41 Melee hunter (Planned secondary main)
Anbone - 36 Shadow Priest (Idk what I'm doing with him)

The laser chicken called to me. And so I answered.

Atreidon
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Re: What exactly does a shaman tank lack?

Post by Atreidon » Tue Feb 04, 2025 3:46 pm

Poqoq wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 3:31 pm So if i bring my avoidence to excatcly 79%, the boss attack will either miss me/block or will be crushing/crit??
Isnt it first it checks if attack is a hit or not and then there is 15% to crush and 6% to crit?
All possible events of an attack get calculated in one roll (at least for PvE). this is why a Rogue popping evasion either survives any boss, or he dies in one hit. If you have 79% avoidance, you either avoid or you get crit/crushed.

Xudo
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Re: What exactly does a shaman tank lack?

Post by Xudo » Tue Feb 04, 2025 4:01 pm

If we don't want class homogenization, then shamans should get different way to deal with crushes and crits. Maybe something related to stonesking totem or earth shield.
"Reduce damage of crits/crushes" will be not very far from current design, but a bit different compared to war/pally/druid ideas.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

amanagor
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Re: What exactly does a shaman tank lack?

Post by amanagor » Tue Feb 04, 2025 4:41 pm

Xudo wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 4:01 pm If we don't want class homogenization, then shamans should get different way to deal with crushes and crits. Maybe something related to stonesking totem or earth shield.
"Reduce damage of crits/crushes" will be not very far from current design, but a bit different compared to war/pally/druid ideas.
Yes please, make ele even stronger in pvp by giving it acess to even more tank talents. Its not enough that ele can face tank and beat bis geared warriors in a duel, we want to be able to do it and stay above 80% health

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