Did Night Elves really descend from Trolls? A deeper look

[Shapeshifter]

Implying that trolls are ugly, which is untrue.

Your profile pic is enough proof that they look like ugly as sin even with half of their face covered or maybe you just lost your glasses somewhere. :^)

[Zeran]

Implying that trolls are ugly, which is untrue.

Your profile pic is enough proof that they look like ugly as sin even with half of their face covered or maybe you just lost your glasses somewhere. :^)

[Exelartz]

Implying that trolls are ugly, which is untrue.

Your profile pic is enough proof that they look like ugly as sin even with half of their face covered or maybe you just lost your glasses somewhere. :^)

shes not a news source or a member of the news so she cant be fake news.
ugly as sin trolls be

edit: loved the come back though =)

[Calli]

ugly as sin trolls be

edit: loved the come back though =)

Kindergarten level of taunting, well done

[Exelartz]

Kindergarten level of taunting, well done

were all juveniles here =)

[Blackduck3]

The out of zandalar theory has been completely debunked

[Zeran]

Elves lay in bed and cry every day, wishing they were trolls

[Fylgia]

If you have even a marginal knowledge of the night elves, it is probable you've heard of this tale before. (etc.)

Well, sure, Blizz can write what ever lore they want lol. And thank you for clarifying it lol I'm going to give my "well ackchewally" answer now lol

But, Elves and Trolls actually descend from the Ethnic, native religion of the European people. A lot of non-believing, and even atheist scholars have offered all kinds of bizarre and even blasphemous interpretations of the Eddic myths. However, Victor Rydberg has done the deepest dive on them, from the respectful viewpoint of this being an actual religion, and makes it very clear that Elves (Alfar) and trolls (or Jotuns) are not related at all. His research is all available in the Swedish books he published which have been translated into English. He even created a smaller book for teens called Our Father's Godsaga to go over the epic myth.

But then, why did Blizz chose to blaspheme, to make the Elves, one of the 3 families of Gods in Norse Myths, come from such disgusting beings, and then tried to make 'dignified monsters' out of Trolls, ... or even Orcs and Hellenic Minotaurs for that matter lol... Well, we can only guess that it's very simple... for starters, when you get people from various backgrounds to work on something, there is bound to be some mutations and even perversions of any folklore lol you can see it quite clearly in Disney's first The Little Mermaid movie, which deviated from the Hans Christian Andersen original unnecessarily.. Sure, they're trying to make their own thing, but this was an unnecessary change one can argue was more an attempt at being edgy.

[Fylgia]

In short, I view Blizzard's "elves came from trolls" as fake news lol

[Qualopec]

But, Elves and Trolls actually descend from the Ethnic, native religion of the European people. A lot of non-believing, and even atheist scholars have offered all kinds of bizarre and even blasphemous interpretations of the Eddic myths. However, Victor Rydberg has done the deepest dive on them, from the respectful viewpoint of this being an actual religion, and makes it very clear that Elves (Alfar) and trolls (or Jotuns) are not related at all. His research is all available in the Swedish books he published which have been translated into English. He even created a smaller book for teens called Our Father's Godsaga to go over the epic myth.

But then, why did Blizz chose to blaspheme, to make the Elves, one of the 3 families of Gods in Norse Myths, come from such disgusting beings, and then tried to make 'dignified monsters' out of Trolls, ... or even Orcs and Hellenic Minotaurs for that matter lol... Well, we can only guess that it's very simple... for starters, when you get people from various backgrounds to work on something, there is bound to be some mutations and even perversions of any folklore lol you can see it quite clearly in Disney's first The Little Mermaid movie, which deviated from the Hans Christian Andersen original unnecessarily.. Sure, they're trying to make their own thing, but this was an unnecessary change one can argue was more an attempt at being edgy.

But we're not playing through Norse mythology. We're playing in World of Warcraft. WoW trolls are nothing like those that came from Norse Mythology, they have superior design. They created the very first civilization, their style is based on Mezoamerican cultures, They speak with Jamaican accent, they have tusks and vibrant hair colors, they practice Voodoo - which last time I checked isn't related to Norse folk at all. And they have complex religion where they worship Loa. Oh, and they're riding on dinnosaurs. Becuase to trolls the bigger and the deadlier the beast is the better.

That is hands down the coolest race in game.

WoW Elves aren't pure creatures, they're not even like those from Tolkien. They're power hungry, greedy, and vain creatures. The great Saunderinng happened, because the nelven Queen thought she could control the Burnig Legion, and then half of the world ended up under the sea.

Then we have high elves, who are the descendant of the exact same mindset. They're very arrogannt and they go for what they want withouth looking at the conseqences.

To claim that WoW elves are like the norse elves is bizzare. Blizzard always does their own twists when it comes to creative decisions, some are good and some are bad.
Personally I don't care if trolls are related to elves or not, it doesn't affect me in the slightest.


But this quote :

But then, why did Blizz chose to blaspheme, to make the Elves, one of the 3 families of Gods in Norse Myths, come from such disgusting beings, and then tried to make 'dignified monsters' out of Trolls,

Is the funniest. Dude, elves aren't real, pull that stick from your behind. Because to call it "blasphemy" for daring to be creative and do somethinng different is really terrible attitude. But you made it sound as if Blizzard did heresy, because elves are like Gods apparently.

But I guess elf players are like the race they play. Just be happy you can play helf on the blue team, I am grateful they don't plague Horde anymore with their attitude problems.

[Sleeplust]

That's why I still can't stand the differences on lore between Warcraft III can World of Warcraft. Blizzard has been overexploiting their resource and finally they lose the dominance in the market.

By the way, Illidan dies in The Frozen Throne. It has been also short-sighted move to make him live in The Burning Crusade.

[Aeliren]

That's why I still can't stand the differences on lore between Warcraft III can World of Warcraft. Blizzard has been overexploiting their resource and finally they lose the dominance in the market.

By the way, Illidan dies in The Frozen Throne. It has been also short-sighted move to make him live in The Burning Crusade.

Burning Crusade isn't what established him as still being alive; that would be Vanilla itself and the quest "Waking Legends", which starts from the Nightmare Engulfed Object that drops from the four Dragons of Nightmare. Itself appears to originate from an internal issue during Warcraft III's development where the in-game animation between Illidan and Arthas was originally planned to be a video cinematic that would allegedly have revealed that Illidan survived to watch Arthas' transformation into the Lich King, but due to time constraints had to instead be done inside the game.

Regardless, Illidan's survival is established by Vanilla, and not TBC:

Malfurion Stormrage says: Cenarius fights at my side. Illidan sits atop his throne in Outland – brooding. I'm afraid that the loss to Arthas proved to be his breaking point. Madness has embraced him, Remulos. He replays the events in his mind a thousand times per day, but in his mind, he is the victor and Arthas is utterly defeated. He is too far gone, old friend. I fear that the time may soon come that our bond is tested and it will not be as it was at the Well in Zin-Azshari.

[Sleeplust]

Burning Crusade isn't what established him as still being alive; that would be Vanilla itself and the quest "Waking Legends", which starts from the Nightmare Engulfed Object that drops from the four Dragons of Nightmare. Itself appears to originate from an internal issue during Warcraft III's development where the in-game animation between Illidan and Arthas was originally planned to be a video cinematic that would allegedly have revealed that Illidan survived to watch Arthas' transformation into the Lich King, but due to time constraints had to instead be done inside the game.

I've read about that rumor/description. The problem is in that in-game 3D-modeled cinematic, Illidan does get killed with a deep wound. Also in that cinematic, Illidan doesn't get the upper hand against Arthas, who is empowered by the Lichking (Illidan is forced, not intentionally, to jump back), unlike the script in later Blizzard's novel saying that Illidan fights more elegantly without showing any struggling or despair.

[Faustorgo]

Night elfs are just mutated Trolls, dont try to disappear that, you accept it and then improve.

[Sleeplust]

Night elfs are just mutated Trolls, dont try to disappear that, you accept it and then improve.

We look back at Warcraft III and find no original inclination in that game that these two races are evolutionary relatives. Why should we accept a biased and malformed path of lore?

[Exelartz]

Night elfs are just mutated Trolls, dont try to disappear that, you accept it and then improve.

its a retcon players shouldn't except that. the writers stopped caring about consistency's in the lore and story of the game which is why there's less and less players interested in both this is the reason why we dont see more merch or other entertainment from this IP

[Exelartz]

If you have even a marginal knowledge of the night elves, it is probable you've heard of this tale before. (etc.)

Well, sure, Blizz can write what ever lore they want lol. And thank you for clarifying it lol I'm going to give my "well ackchewally" answer now lol

But, Elves and Trolls actually descend from the Ethnic, native religion of the European people. A lot of non-believing, and even atheist scholars have offered all kinds of bizarre and even blasphemous interpretations of the Eddic myths. However, Victor Rydberg has done the deepest dive on them, from the respectful viewpoint of this being an actual religion, and makes it very clear that Elves (Alfar) and trolls (or Jotuns) are not related at all. His research is all available in the Swedish books he published which have been translated into English. He even created a smaller book for teens called Our Father's Godsaga to go over the epic myth.

But then, why did Blizz chose to blaspheme, to make the Elves, one of the 3 families of Gods in Norse Myths, come from such disgusting beings, and then tried to make 'dignified monsters' out of Trolls, ... or even Orcs and Hellenic Minotaurs for that matter lol... Well, we can only guess that it's very simple... for starters, when you get people from various backgrounds to work on something, there is bound to be some mutations and even perversions of any folklore lol you can see it quite clearly in Disney's first The Little Mermaid movie, which deviated from the Hans Christian Andersen original unnecessarily.. Sure, they're trying to make their own thing, but this was an unnecessary change one can argue was more an attempt at being edgy.

you forgot to add dwarves

[Exelartz]

Night elfs are just mutated Trolls, dont try to disappear that, you accept it and then improve.

We look back at Warcraft III and find no original inclination in that game that these two races are evolutionary relatives. Why should we accept a biased and malformed path of lore?

Ya its frustrating, the rts games the elves were the first and oldest race on azeroth. metzen doesnt even care about consistency so most other writers dont either, which is sad

[Qualopec]

Night elfs are just mutated Trolls, dont try to disappear that, you accept it and then improve.

We look back at Warcraft III and find no original inclination in that game that these two races are evolutionary relatives. Why should we accept a biased and malformed path of lore?

Why should we accept a biased and malformed path of lore?

Because Blizzard set this in stone the moment they created WoW? And why do you call it 'biased'?

Blizzard had it's vision and expanded on it in Vanilla WoW already. Turtle WoW isn't retconning stuff from Vanilla wow, they're adding around it. So all the books and all the quests that appeared in Vanilla are still there.

And trust me, I'd rahter not have undeads in the Horde, and for Echo Isles to be actual hub, but it's not the case. Beggars can't be choosers.

[Exelartz]

Night elfs are just mutated Trolls, dont try to disappear that, you accept it and then improve.

We look back at Warcraft III and find no original inclination in that game that these two races are evolutionary relatives. Why should we accept a biased and malformed path of lore?

Why should we accept a biased and malformed path of lore?

Because Blizzard set this in stone the moment they created WoW? And why do you call it 'biased'?

Blizzard had it's vision and expanded on it in Vanilla WoW already. Turtle WoW isn't retconning stuff from Vanilla wow, they're adding around it. So all the books and all the quests that appeared in Vanilla are still there.

And trust me, I'd rahter not have undeads in the Horde, and for Echo Isles to be actual hub, but it's not the case. Beggars can't be choosers.

nothing is set in stone blizzard has already shown they dont care.
blizzard also has no vision as it does nothing but retcon shit every chance it gets
and yes beggers can be choosers

[Bigsmerf]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure this is supposed to be a personal journal entry from Brann Bronzebeard who was simply theorizing/guesstimating about stuff, rather than proven fact, at least before modern writers/lore nerds just took that and made it canon.

[Turbosaxophonic]

Night elfs are just mutated Trolls, dont try to disappear that, you accept it and then improve.

We look back at Warcraft III and find no original inclination in that game that these two races are evolutionary relatives. Why should we accept a biased and malformed path of lore?

Ya its frustrating, the rts games the elves were the first and oldest race on azeroth. metzen doesnt even care about consistency so most other writers dont either, which is sad

So the Dark Trolls in WC3 heavily resembling Night Elves and living in Night Elven territories was just a coincidence? Why are people acting like the connection is so far-fetched when the Shadowtooth tribe is right there? Honestly most of this thread reads like Elven Cope to me, I really doubt the Trolls who specifically look like Night Elves and are the only known tribe of their kind would be placed in Hyjal and Ashenvale maps by the WC3 devs if there were no connections to draw and if it wasn’t something that’s open to interpretation.

What would their thought process be if there was no relation in mind? Was it somehow an accident? “oops I made this group of green-haired purple-skinned troll units for the night elf campaign but I forgot night elves already look like that. oh well, just ship it. no one will notice”

[Sleeplust]

We look back at Warcraft III and find no original inclination in that game that these two races are evolutionary relatives. Why should we accept a biased and malformed path of lore?

Ya its frustrating, the rts games the elves were the first and oldest race on azeroth. metzen doesnt even care about consistency so most other writers dont either, which is sad

So the Dark Trolls in WC3 heavily resembling Night Elves and living in Night Elven territories was just a coincidence? Why are people acting like the connection is so far-fetched when the Shadowtooth tribe is right there? Honestly most of this thread reads like Elven Cope to me, I really doubt the Trolls who specifically look like Night Elves and are the only known tribe of their kind would be placed in Hyjal and Ashenvale maps by the WC3 devs if there were no connections to draw and if it wasn’t something that’s open to interpretation.

What would their thought process be if there was no relation in mind? Was it somehow an accident? “oops I made this group of green-haired purple-skinned troll units for the night elf campaign but I forgot night elves already look like that. oh well, just ship it. no one will notice”

Dark trolls in WCIII do look alike with other trolls rather than any elf kind we know. Around night elven terrotories there are also harpies who to some extent look like night elves. Humans and all known elven races look more the same than trolls and elves (five-finger hands and human-like faces), don't they? No double standard. They put dark trolls beside the World Tree for a reason, which is merely that they made troll races scattered in the world for making them good farmed targets, just like those furbolgs around same locations. Undermining the lore of the base set in early games has been what Blizzard did and do through 20 years. Blizzard didn't just add contents; they modified too much.

[Qualopec]

We look back at Warcraft III and find no original inclination in that game that these two races are evolutionary relatives. Why should we accept a biased and malformed path of lore?

Ya its frustrating, the rts games the elves were the first and oldest race on azeroth. metzen doesnt even care about consistency so most other writers dont either, which is sad

So the Dark Trolls in WC3 heavily resembling Night Elves and living in Night Elven territories was just a coincidence? Why are people acting like the connection is so far-fetched when the Shadowtooth tribe is right there? Honestly most of this thread reads like Elven Cope to me, I really doubt the Trolls who specifically look like Night Elves and are the only known tribe of their kind would be placed in Hyjal and Ashenvale maps by the WC3 devs if there were no connections to draw and if it wasn’t something that’s open to interpretation.

What would their thought process be if there was no relation in mind? Was it somehow an accident? “oops I made this group of green-haired purple-skinned troll units for the night elf campaign but I forgot night elves already look like that. oh well, just ship it. no one will notice”

It's really bizzare to me as well. How long has it already been set in stone? 14 years by now? And the quests and texts were already all over the place in the in-game books, the quests like the one from AV from Staghelm. They just finally confirmed it in Magazine and later in Chronicles.

Sure Blizzard Retcons lots of stuff along the way, but this thing in particular they're very consistent. And they stay on track with this narrative choice since the start of WoW.

I'd understand if it was on rolelay forum, but seriously people let it go. I know it's lame to be connected to elves, but it's not Norse lore, it's not Tolkien lore, it's Warcraft, and you can tell that Blizzard wanted to break some stereotypical depictions of fantasy races.

I'd never tie Minotaur with Native Americans, and I'd never tie Trolls to Azects and Jamaicans, but I'm digginng it.

[Calevarn]

How long has it already been set in stone? 14 years by now?

And it's been 23 years since the night elves were originally declared the first race in Warcraft. Age isn't going to work in your favour there

So the Dark Trolls in WC3 heavily resembling Night Elves and living in Night Elven territories was just a coincidence? Why are people acting like the connection is so far-fetched

I don't really understand this argument, and I don't find it too strong. I already responded to it in my opening post.

Realistically, yes, a physical resemblance could reasonably be indication of a genetic relation, as is the case in the real world. But if you simply consider it a little in the context of Warcraft, then I don't know why this extrapolation is only and ever exclusively done in the context of elves.

High elves, for example, look much more like humans than trolls look like elves. Dwarves and gnomes and even monkeys look like high elves too, to an extent. Orcs and trolls and goblins also have numerous similarities.

Are there no connections to draw there?

Therefore, I don't understand how having similar colour palettes and ear shapes is at all definitive indication of these races being related.

Other than later writers reotractively making it so, perhaps thinking they were being very clever about it.

What would their thought process be if there was no relation in mind? Was it somehow an accident?

I cannot claim to know their thought process, but I'll bite at this exercise.

Hey, goblins, trolls and orcs are also often put near each other. What was their thought process if there was no relation in mind? Was it somehow an accident? Making them all green-skinned, pointy-eared and sharp-toothed?

Well. Even in Warcraft III, which you are going off of, and I posted extensively on the contradictions Warcraft III gives on much of the troll-elf relation lore from WoW, we are quite explicitly told, from even the official Warcraft III website all the way back in 2002 that night elves are the first race on the world:

The reclusive Night Elves were the first race to awaken in the World of Warcraft.

Source: https://classic.battle.net/war3/races.shtml

If they had been planning to have the elves descend from trolls from the start, as you imply, then why weren't we unambiguously told so until Cataclysm?

Satyrs, for instance, are explicitly related to elves, and Warcraft III doesn't have a problem saying it.

Why doesn't it say the same about trolls? Why does Warcraft III call the elves 'the first race to awaken'? Why do the vanilla sources cast doubt on themselves and leave the matter a mystery? Why does the chronology not add up? Why does Metzen himself call it a retcon?

Finally, I feel like I must have repeated myself a dozen times by now. But it's absolutely set in stone that elves descend from trolls in retail lore. I agree, it's very cut and dry: they're mutated trolls. Beyond question. No arguments there.

But when we talk about Classic and even older installments in the Warcraft franchise, this wasn't always the case. You can say it's lore you like, and power to you. But Warcraft III dubbed them the first race and Classic left it intentionally ambiguous so there's more interpretations than one. Which, to me, is frankly far more interesting.

[Allwynd01]

Orcs in LotR are elves that got twisted and devolved with dark magic, that's why they have pointy ears. Orcs in Warcraft are a separate race from another planet (a copy of Warhammers orcs) but they preserved the pointy ears,

That's not clear either. From what I've researched, which isn't much, because I find less and less enthusiasm to delve in these fictional stories, I found two accounts:

1. The orcs are indeed elves twisted by dark magic and possibly physical and mental torture.
2. They are entirely created by the Dark Lord.

The second point can be debated, because it's said that "Evil can't create, it can only twist and corrupt", but in the end, I think the origin of Orcs in Middle Earth is not completely decided and delving deeper only makes one more confused.




As for the Night Elves, I don't really remember what first information about them I came across, I always thought they changed from Trolls. But if we take these findings posted here into account, it may be considered that Trolls before the Well of Eternity, were even more primitive, both in appearance and in mental capacity compared to current Trolls in 2004 Vanilla WoW. This, in my opinion would mean that the Night Elves are something like "Trolls from the far future", meaning they are the natural evolution of Trolls for probably thousands or millions of years and regular Trolls will reach the point where they will resemble Night Elves, provided Azeroth remains (mostly) intact for several thousand or millions of years.

[Exelartz]

Ya its frustrating, the rts games the elves were the first and oldest race on azeroth. metzen doesnt even care about consistency so most other writers dont either, which is sad

So the Dark Trolls in WC3 heavily resembling Night Elves and living in Night Elven territories was just a coincidence? Why are people acting like the connection is so far-fetched when the Shadowtooth tribe is right there? Honestly most of this thread reads like Elven Cope to me, I really doubt the Trolls who specifically look like Night Elves and are the only known tribe of their kind would be placed in Hyjal and Ashenvale maps by the WC3 devs if there were no connections to draw and if it wasn’t something that’s open to interpretation.

What would their thought process be if there was no relation in mind? Was it somehow an accident? “oops I made this group of green-haired purple-skinned troll units for the night elf campaign but I forgot night elves already look like that. oh well, just ship it. no one will notice”

It's really bizzare to me as well. How long has it already been set in stone? 14 years by now? And the quests and texts were already all over the place in the in-game books, the quests like the one from AV from Staghelm. They just finally confirmed it in Magazine and later in Chronicles.

Sure Blizzard Retcons lots of stuff along the way, but this thing in particular they're very consistent. And they stay on track with this narrative choice since the start of WoW.

I'd understand if it was on rolelay forum, but seriously people let it go. I know it's lame to be connected to elves, but it's not Norse lore, it's not Tolkien lore, it's Warcraft, and you can tell that Blizzard wanted to break some stereotypical depictions of fantasy races.

I'd never tie Minotaur with Native Americans, and I'd never tie Trolls to Azects and Jamaicans, but I'm digginng it.

it was set in stone back in the rts days that the elves were the first and oldest race, it hasnt been consistent for 14years
This is just the random writer they currently have at that current moment in time nothing set in stone and its why players more and more dont care about the lore