Buffing PvP sets/gear to keep up with PvE gear... in PvP

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Ragetto
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Buffing PvP sets/gear to keep up with PvE gear... in PvP

Post by Ragetto » Sat Sep 21, 2024 5:12 pm

Hi all!

I'm playing on Tel'Abim, where Naxx hasn't opened its doors yet (but it seems like it's very soon, as the invasions have started etc).

I don't do PvE (except for Rok'delar), I'm R13, and in BGs, I'm starting to see more and more T2.5 (AQ sets), and I was thinking that with Naxx gear coming, the epic PvP set will begin to feel more and more obsolete (though still decent of course)...

Reaching Rank 13/14 is a different type of investment compared to raiding, but it still requires quite a bit of time.

We could add a bit of purely PvP stats (stamina or even resilience from TBC?) without making it stronger for PvE.

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Re: Buffing PvP sets/gear to keep up with PvE gear... in PvP

Post by Grizb37 » Sat Sep 21, 2024 6:52 pm

Ragetto wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2024 5:12 pm Hi all!

I'm playing on Tel'Abim, where Naxx hasn't opened its doors yet (but it seems like it's very soon, as the invasions have started etc).

I don't do PvE (except for Rok'delar), I'm R13, and in BGs, I'm starting to see more and more T2.5 (AQ sets), and I was thinking that with Naxx gear coming, the epic PvP set will begin to feel more and more obsolete (though still decent of course)...

Reaching Rank 13/14 is a different type of investment compared to raiding, but it still requires quite a bit of time.

We could add a bit of purely PvP stats (stamina or even resilience from TBC?) without making it stronger for PvE.
I've made a few posts about this, especially with the new T3.5 gear and future T4 coming the PvP will feel like crap... The gear is alot harder to obtain than T3 and it's the only option other than BR gear sole pvpers have. Imo it should have a stat budget atleast as much as T3 after the new patch hits. If not it's gonna suck even more than it does now

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Re: Buffing PvP sets/gear to keep up with PvE gear... in PvP

Post by Geojak » Sat Sep 21, 2024 7:14 pm

I disagree, the problem is the unhealthy insane vanilla pvp ranking system where you fight decay to progress at all.

We should fix this so you don't have to do 3 weeks of 8+ hours a day jus to progress from rank 13 to rank 14. If you arent already naxx bis, then 8 hours is probably not enough. You can't go less extreme because of decay and standing competition.

This needs fixing, so pvp gear becomes more available. It's totally fine that it's just aq40 level of quality.

Decay should be completely removed and required points per rank upped.

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Re: Buffing PvP sets/gear to keep up with PvE gear... in PvP

Post by Ragetto » Sat Sep 21, 2024 9:08 pm

Geojak wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2024 7:14 pmThis needs fixing, so pvp gear becomes more available. It's totally fine that it's just aq40 level of quality.
I don’t think it’s fine that the best PvP gear is obtained through PvE. The best PvP gear should be earned by PvPing. All-around players (who do both PvE and PvP) could still mix and match the two types of gear though, especially using PvE weapons, trinkets, and amulets/rings.

Also, since I’d be (very) surprised if they changed the PvP system anytime soon, it seems reasonable to give PvP gear a small buff with a bit more stamina (which would have zero impact on PvE but would optimize it for PvP, as it should for PvP gear).

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Re: Buffing PvP sets/gear to keep up with PvE gear... in PvP

Post by Grizb37 » Sat Sep 21, 2024 9:12 pm

Geojak wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2024 7:14 pm I disagree, the problem is the unhealthy insane vanilla pvp ranking system where you fight decay to progress at all.

We should fix this so you don't have to do 3 weeks of 8+ hours a day jus to progress from rank 13 to rank 14. If you arent already naxx bis, then 8 hours is probably not enough. You can't go less extreme because of decay and standing competition.

This needs fixing, so pvp gear becomes more available. It's totally fine that it's just aq40 level of quality.

Decay should be completely removed and required points per rank upped.
Even more reason to make the rewards stronger, they're hard to get. And should be reflected that way. I have an alt that I got naxx geared after hitting 60 in a few weeks. Whereas to get R13 it requires atleast 10 weeks of hard core pvp grinding to get. And it's worse gear.

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Re: Buffing PvP sets/gear to keep up with PvE gear... in PvP

Post by Springboards » Sat Sep 21, 2024 10:04 pm

Or just get into a raiding guild , t3 tokens are pretty much guaranteed drops

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Re: Buffing PvP sets/gear to keep up with PvE gear... in PvP

Post by Akos1896 » Sat Sep 21, 2024 10:09 pm

I agree with Geojak here.
PVP players are a minority here but still, a lot of them plays WOW as a PVP game. Them being forced to raid regularly (to gear up to Naxx and have a chance to get good loots) is forcing them to play a different game.

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Re: Buffing PvP sets/gear to keep up with PvE gear... in PvP

Post by Diablowjob » Sat Sep 21, 2024 11:30 pm

Agree with OP. PvP set need a buff. Cuz otherwise its just no life grind for tmog. Im r13 myself and know what im tlaking about. Im using right now only 2 items from pvpv set for stamina buff. rest is t3. And i think when t3.5 will come out i will forget about those 2 items too lol.

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Re: Buffing PvP sets/gear to keep up with PvE gear... in PvP

Post by Bjorn88 » Sun Sep 22, 2024 8:28 am

Geojak wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2024 7:14 pm I disagree, the problem is the unhealthy insane vanilla pvp ranking system where you fight decay to progress at all.

We should fix this so you don't have to do 3 weeks of 8+ hours a day jus to progress from rank 13 to rank 14. If you arent already naxx bis, then 8 hours is probably not enough. You can't go less extreme because of decay and standing competition.

This needs fixing, so pvp gear becomes more available. It's totally fine that it's just aq40 level of quality.

Decay should be completely removed and required points per rank upped.
Problem is 1) reworking the honor system is a pretty huge task, 2) devs are not very interested in pvp, 3) even if they were, at current pace we would see it maybe 2026.

Just buffing the items is a much more lowhanging solution.

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Re: Buffing PvP sets/gear to keep up with PvE gear... in PvP

Post by Ragetto » Sun Sep 22, 2024 9:17 am

Akos1896 wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2024 10:09 pm I agree with Geojak here.
PVP players are a minority here but still, a lot of them plays WOW as a PVP game. Them being forced to raid regularly (to gear up to Naxx and have a chance to get good loots) is forcing them to play a different game.
Seems like you agree with me turtle_tongue_head (or someone who agrees with me)

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Re: Buffing PvP sets/gear to keep up with PvE gear... in PvP

Post by Caos » Sun Sep 22, 2024 1:20 pm

Another issue is that you don't get any decent gear at all until rank 12 which takes forever.
They could reduce the ranks required for each set, blue 7 or 8. The epic to 9, 10 or 10, 11 and create a new one more powerful for ranks 12, 13 or 13, 14.

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Re: Buffing PvP sets/gear to keep up with PvE gear... in PvP

Post by Manletow » Sun Sep 22, 2024 3:10 pm

Entry level PVP gear is actually generally pretty good and easy to get (blue gear up to Rank 10)
AV gear is great and super easy to grind Rep

Rank 12+ gear is way too hard to get (and bad for how long it takes to acquire)

T-WoW staff are wisely buffing many bad PVP items (like WSG and AB rewards) in the next patch.
But yeah sadly the tier 3.5 gear will still likely cause PVPers to get stomped by Raider PVErs.
Frost Mage is overpowered in PVP/PVE.
Warrior is awful in PVP.
Druid is a bad class. This is intended and wise design.

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Re: Buffing PvP sets/gear to keep up with PvE gear... in PvP

Post by Elleshar » Sun Sep 22, 2024 7:12 pm

Ragetto wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2024 5:12 pm We could add a bit of purely PvP stats (stamina or even resilience from TBC?) without making it stronger for PvE.
For pvp to be relevant in the future this needs to happen, if everyone has to raid pve endgame content for bis pvp gear then the quality of the pvp scene is gonna suffer a lot.

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Re: Buffing PvP sets/gear to keep up with PvE gear... in PvP

Post by Zulnam » Sun Sep 22, 2024 8:58 pm

Elleshar wrote: Sun Sep 22, 2024 7:12 pm
Ragetto wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2024 5:12 pm We could add a bit of purely PvP stats (stamina or even resilience from TBC?) without making it stronger for PvE.
For pvp to be relevant in the future this needs to happen, if everyone has to raid pve endgame content for bis pvp gear then the quality of the pvp scene is gonna suffer a lot.
That's only the half of it.

You would also need an equal ilvl set for every PvE set (not counting T0 and 0.5, that's 4).

And also a way of getting them that is somewhat manageable with the current ranking system, unless you add a pvp currency and disregard ranks altogether.

Honestly, i don't think people are considering how big of an undertaking it would be to equalise pvp and pve gear.

And as much as I would love to see it happen, the twow community has proven time and time again that they are pve focused. and the pvp minority is not exactly "nice", to put it mildly. Hard to find the justification to help people for free when you are always "biased" or "ignoring them".

There used to be a meme that the first thing a twow dev does is mute the discord pvp-general channel. But read 50 messages, and you'll see why. Toxic is an understatement.

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Re: Buffing PvP sets/gear to keep up with PvE gear... in PvP

Post by Dracarusggotham » Sun Sep 22, 2024 10:41 pm

Zulnam wrote: Sun Sep 22, 2024 8:58 pm
Elleshar wrote: Sun Sep 22, 2024 7:12 pm
Ragetto wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2024 5:12 pm We could add a bit of purely PvP stats (stamina or even resilience from TBC?) without making it stronger for PvE.
For pvp to be relevant in the future this needs to happen, if everyone has to raid pve endgame content for bis pvp gear then the quality of the pvp scene is gonna suffer a lot.
That's only the half of it.

You would also need an equal ilvl set for every PvE set (not counting T0 and 0.5, that's 4).

And also a way of getting them that is somewhat manageable with the current ranking system, unless you add a pvp currency and disregard ranks altogether.

Honestly, i don't think people are considering how big of an undertaking it would be to equalise pvp and pve gear.

And as much as I would love to see it happen, the twow community has proven time and time again that they are pve focused. and the pvp minority is not exactly "nice", to put it mildly. Hard to find the justification to help people for free when you are always "biased" or "ignoring them".

There used to be a meme that the first thing a twow dev does is mute the discord pvp-general channel. But read 50 messages, and you'll see why. Toxic is an understatement.
That was the reason why for a long time the majority of the community and the developers were against a PvP server.

And I really hope that with the new client revamping or porting the PvP system from TBC+ will be easier, since that's what has been asked for a long time (although that would go against Vanilla+).

In general, as much as it is demanded, TWoW has always been very much about PvE, and that should be respected, they have made it clear from the beginning although their stance against PvE has softened slightly.

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Re: Buffing PvP sets/gear to keep up with PvE gear... in PvP

Post by Diablowjob » Mon Sep 23, 2024 5:51 am

At this point we are going to see how t3.5 raiders gonna stomp all pvp'ers like kids. And bg's are going to be a flexzone to show how many items u got kekw.

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Re: Buffing PvP sets/gear to keep up with PvE gear... in PvP

Post by Grizb37 » Mon Sep 23, 2024 6:20 am

Zulnam wrote: Sun Sep 22, 2024 8:58 pm
Elleshar wrote: Sun Sep 22, 2024 7:12 pm
Ragetto wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2024 5:12 pm We could add a bit of purely PvP stats (stamina or even resilience from TBC?) without making it stronger for PvE.
For pvp to be relevant in the future this needs to happen, if everyone has to raid pve endgame content for bis pvp gear then the quality of the pvp scene is gonna suffer a lot.
That's only the half of it.

You would also need an equal ilvl set for every PvE set (not counting T0 and 0.5, that's 4).

And also a way of getting them that is somewhat manageable with the current ranking system, unless you add a pvp currency and disregard ranks altogether.

Honestly, i don't think people are considering how big of an undertaking it would be to equalise pvp and pve gear.

And as much as I would love to see it happen, the twow community has proven time and time again that they are pve focused. and the pvp minority is not exactly "nice", to put it mildly. Hard to find the justification to help people for free when you are always "biased" or "ignoring them".

There used to be a meme that the first thing a twow dev does is mute the discord pvp-general channel. But read 50 messages, and you'll see why. Toxic is an understatement.
When you've gone out your way to create a PvP focused server, you can no longer hide behind the 'well we are pve focused server' imo.

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Re: Buffing PvP sets/gear to keep up with PvE gear... in PvP

Post by Geojak » Mon Sep 23, 2024 8:56 am

Bjorn88 wrote: Sun Sep 22, 2024 8:28 am
Geojak wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2024 7:14 pm I disagree, the problem is the unhealthy insane vanilla pvp ranking system where you fight decay to progress at all.

We should fix this so you don't have to do 3 weeks of 8+ hours a day jus to progress from rank 13 to rank 14. If you arent already naxx bis, then 8 hours is probably not enough. You can't go less extreme because of decay and standing competition.

This needs fixing, so pvp gear becomes more available. It's totally fine that it's just aq40 level of quality.

Decay should be completely removed and required points per rank upped.
Problem is 1) reworking the honor system is a pretty huge task, 2) devs are not very interested in pvp, 3) even if they were, at current pace we would see it maybe 2026.

Just buffing the items is a much more lowhanging solution.
It's not a huge task. I have demonstrated 2 years ago how changing 3 lines of codes to eliminate decay is doable. I looked into the code and did the math

viewtopic.php?p=25981&hilit=Decay#p25981

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Re: Buffing PvP sets/gear to keep up with PvE gear... in PvP

Post by Ragetto » Mon Sep 23, 2024 10:01 am

Geojak wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2024 8:56 amIt's not a huge task. I have demonstrated 2 years ago how changing 3 lines of codes to eliminate decay is doable. I looked into the code and did the math
Technically it probably isn’t, but it only makes pvp gear more accessible for everyone without improving it for highly invested pvpers, which wasn’t the point.

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Post by Frantsel » Mon Sep 23, 2024 2:22 pm

If you think that PVP on turtle wow will become anything but worse, you are EXTREMELY silly.

Turtle wow devs NEVER showed any understanding of pvp EVER. Even blizzard updated the honor system.

Phase 6 will stomp your pvp experience. Tier 3,5 even more.

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Post by Elleshar » Tue Oct 01, 2024 8:26 pm

Frantsel wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2024 2:22 pm Turtle wow devs NEVER showed any understanding of pvp EVER.

Phase 6 will stomp your pvp experience. Tier 3,5 even more.
Sadly this appears to be trajectory so far, if t3 already stomps this hard vs bis pvp items it's only gonna get worse with later raid tiers.

I see some of the tiny buffs they have done to some pvp items and resilience change for 1.17.2 but won't do any meaningful change and even stacking the pvp resilience items that are available will make you worse off since you lose out too much stats.

I mean looking at SoD's classic+ changes even they buffed the pvp sets and also added alternative sets so every spec had a set that made it viable just like later expansions. I think they need to look how either SoD or TBC handles the pvp system and itemization to fix some of it. If they are gonna add faction leader loot in the future they should make it drop pvp focused items only. The key philosophy should be pvp items are bis in pvp.

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Re: Buffing PvP sets/gear to keep up with PvE gear... in PvP

Post by Drubarrymooer » Tue Oct 01, 2024 11:12 pm

I kind of think pvp gear should be buffed a bit, which I do believe some of it is up for it in the item changelog. However, I don't know if it's easier to obtain pvp gear over the rng of pve. In pvp you amass honor and tokens and buy whatever piece you want. In a pve setting sometimes you're waiting months or even years for a piece of gear. Even then, the naxx stuff takes expensive mats to put together from the tokens.

At the very least, it should be looked into a little bit.

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Re: Buffing PvP sets/gear to keep up with PvE gear... in PvP

Post by Caos » Thu Oct 03, 2024 10:10 am

Pve gear really depends a lot on your luck on the ease to obtain. You can get a bunch of peaces really fast the first times you go. If you are aiming for a specific piece it can take a while but keep in mind you probably need that specific peace for pvp if you wanna optimize and well pvp gear has a lot of gear slots without good options.

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Post by Eversongwoods » Thu Oct 03, 2024 11:33 am

Ranking system should be removed altogether and a system like was used from TBC and onward should be put in. Gear options for every slot and pvp gear should be better for pvp than pve gear. Making pvp gear not usable in any instanced pve should be considered as to not disrupt raid progression.

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Re: Buffing PvP sets/gear to keep up with PvE gear... in PvP

Post by Atreidon » Thu Oct 03, 2024 2:29 pm

Eversongwoods wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2024 11:33 am Ranking system should be removed altogether and a system like was used from TBC and onward should be put in. Gear options for every slot and pvp gear should be better for pvp than pve gear. Making pvp gear not usable in any instanced pve should be considered as to not disrupt raid progression.
But why exactly should people not be able to play the content they prefer (be that pve or pvp) and be rewarded with equal quality gear? If some parser loonie wants to spend weeks and months doing pvp for bracers that have 2 more ap than the pve ones, i totally think he deserves them and to top dps meters ever so slightly.

PvP is not encouraging to newcomers at all if the pvp gear is better than their pve gear. Meanwhile for a raiding Guild someone in full bis PvP gear might not be as attractive than someone who just done a couple raids, if you stat the items in a way where pve items are suboptimal for pvp and vice versa. In both cases thats a loss for the players involved.

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Post by Eversongwoods » Thu Oct 03, 2024 2:55 pm

It would be much better to just not allow pvp gear in raids then have to add a stat like resilience. PvE is like the story mode of the game and you shouldn't be able to skip story. I see no issue the other way around with pve gear used in pvp because this would just add to the amount of players involved in pvp.

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Re: Buffing PvP sets/gear to keep up with PvE gear... in PvP

Post by Atreidon » Thu Oct 03, 2024 3:47 pm

Eversongwoods wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2024 2:55 pm It would be much better to just not allow pvp gear in raids then have to add a stat like resilience. PvE is like the story mode of the game and you shouldn't be able to skip story. I see no issue the other way around with pve gear used in pvp because this would just add to the amount of players involved in pvp.
Thats so pretentions and flat out wrong. On nordrannar i run a Raiding guild and lemme tell you 95% of our naxx newjoiners are definitely "skipping the story" so to speak when i look at their gear.
why does it matter that you earned your gear from doing activity A over activity B?

Not to mention the War in World of Warcraft is kind of the story

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Re: Buffing PvP sets/gear to keep up with PvE gear... in PvP

Post by Eversongwoods » Thu Oct 03, 2024 4:23 pm

well if someone wants to skip to naxx that is their choice and i don't see any good in people doing pvp for pve gear because then you get people afk in bgs like all last night

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Re: Buffing PvP sets/gear to keep up with PvE gear... in PvP

Post by Ragetto » Thu Oct 03, 2024 4:39 pm

Eversongwoods wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2024 2:55 pm It would be much better to just not allow pvp gear in raids
That would be the worst possible solution (by far). There is no reasonable justification for it.

The only viable and fair solution is to ensure that pvp gear is weaker in pve than pve gear (damage/healing), but more optimized for pvp (stamina, introduction of resilience, etc.) - for gears of similar quality.

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Post by Eversongwoods » Thu Oct 03, 2024 6:19 pm

TWoW nerfed bloodvine set and other gear because they viewed it as catch up gear. The only way they will ever put good pvp gear in the game is if it doesnt mess with raid progress. To be honest though i never met a good pvper that enjoyed raiding anyways.

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Re: Buffing PvP sets/gear to keep up with PvE gear... in PvP

Post by Ragetto » Wed Oct 30, 2024 9:44 am

Eversongwoods wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2024 6:19 pmThe only way they will ever put good PvP gear in the game is if it doesn’t mess with raid progress.
Adding a bit of stamina and/or resilience would improve PvP sets without affecting raid progression.
Eversongwoods wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2024 6:19 pmThe only way they will ever put good PvP gear in the game is if it doesn’t mess with raid progress. To be honest though, I never met a good PvPer that enjoyed raiding anyways.
I know some who do, but most of them would be far less involved in PvE if there were meaningful PvP activities with individual and team objectives (like arenas and rated BGs) coming with good rewards.

While they enjoy PvE, it’s often more about gearing up (gear and enchants) so they can then have fun in PvP.

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Re: Buffing PvP sets/gear to keep up with PvE gear... in PvP

Post by Xudo » Wed Oct 30, 2024 10:09 am

I agree with Ragetto idea: make better endgame itemisation for PvP.
I also agree with Geojack here: there should be reasonable system to acquire it.

I think it will be fine if PvP gear will be bad for PvE and otherwise.

I only add that gear should not be reward for "being good in PvP". It should be reward for time investment. Otherwise, people still be obligated to go raiding to have a chance to win against good and geared PvPers.
Wins should grant rating and position in some table. Meanwhile, losses should grant at least progress in gear.
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