Naxxramas caling: Community Poll

[Velite]

It seems that many people are reading this poll and mixing up "convenience/accessibility" with "difficulty". There are several important things to understand when it comes to the relative difficulty of a raid on turtle wow:

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Important to note is the distinction of original difficulty: I say "original difficulty" regarding a 40 man group doing a 40 man raid. A 35 man group doing a raid scaled down to 35 preserves this original difficulty at least, if not making it more difficult than attempted at the full size. Of course, bringing only 35 people to a 40 man raid will mean it is more difficult than 35 people to a 35 man scaled raid, but the solution to that problem is to bring more players; As turtle wow has a player shortage, that is why scaling was created, and I will try to convey that scaling attempts to solve this problem when you can't bring more players. I know some people will say that the original difficulty of Naxx is that it forces you to bring 40 people, and that remains the case on Turtle, as you will want to fill that 40 people to finish the raid. Scaling does not eliminate this area of improvement, but attempts to preserve the original difficulty of having a capped raid size.

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1) A scaled raid requires the same amount of healers and tanks as a full raid. You cannot do any fight with less tanks as a 40 man vs a 20 man MC/BWL. And, considering that spell damage remains the same regardless of scaling, a fight like patchwerk will still require 4 tanks and 12 healers regardless of difficulty. What lower scaling means is that you are taking more dps, but the HP of the mobs has also scaled down. However, because the tank/healer ratio remains the same, the dps requirements to beat fights INCREASE as a result of downsizing the raid, as the HP of bosses decreases per each less player, but the ratio of DPS to Healers and Tanks does not increase (it in fact decreases, giving your raid less total dps on average). Considering as well there are many mechanics in vanilla that "pick a random player", these mechanics are much more difficult in a smaller scaled raid. Each person counts for more, as is noted in the difference between Vanilla 40 man raiding and TBC 25 man raiding; for each player that dies in a smaller raid, the fight becomes more difficult. So in short, a smaller raid size does not necessarily make the raid less difficult, and with the way scaling currently works, the Meta will remain to have a 40 man raid.


2) Cross faction Exists. When most people are discussing the "original difficulty of Naxx" they are forgetting paladins and shamans are raiding with eachother. Cross faction and raid scaling were implemented for the same reasons: Turtle wow is a low population server split between two factions, so mixing them and not requiring the full 40 for people to progress raiding was a smart decision. Unlike stated in point 1., Cross faction DOES make the raids EASIER. So long as 1 paladin and 1 shaman exist in a raid, the raid composition can already be stronger than in a standard meta Horde/Alliance raiding comp. Now of course we can't ask for diplomacy to be removed, as it's an integral part of Turtle Wow and most of the community agrees it should stay, both because it has improved many specs, but it's also allowed horde players to raid easier considering the alliance majority of the server. Regardless, many of the arguments presented against scaling can be said for cross-faction, and nobody wants that removed, when that has more of an effect on the "original difficulty" of Naxx than scaling does. In short, if you wanted to preserve the original difficulty of Naxxramas, it would be more effective to remove diplomacy than to remove scaling.

3) Accessibility vs Difficulty. I've stated before that a downscaled raid does not necessarily make the content easier, in most cases the content becomes more difficult for that size of raid to complete it, than the full scaled version vs a 40 man group. What a scaled raid means however is that, since the difficulty is more or less a constant trending harder, the minimum required amount of players to complete the raid is brought down, which allows players to start raiding without having to fill the full 40 roster. This is important on a low population server like Turtle, as it allows more groups to progress the raiding content when there is a shortage of raiders, instead of waiting for more people or giving up entirely. And with the fights in Naxx being so tightly tuned, you don't want to stop at 30-35, you want to continue recruiting for more people up to 40: especially for fights like 4 Horsemen/Patchwerk/Kel'thuzad, the latter being a fight where many people will die regardless of how good your comp is, so having the full 40 is required for success. Scaling exists to make raids accessible, and this is true of Naxxramas as well. I wanted people to understand that much of the points they have said address the accessibility of raid groups attempting Naxxramas, not the difficulty of the content itself; One can argue the point that the raid being more accessible will make the content easier as more people will get loot, but I haven't heard that argument yet. Most people are just saying Naxx will be flat out easier without explaining why, so I wanted to make this clear.

With that out of the way, I wanted to convey my opinion of what scaling should be for Naxxramas. I believe the scaling should start at 35 people. I also believe this should be a retroactive change to all raids, as while Turtle remains a small server, it has at least grown to encompass several 40 man groups, to the point where it is no longer necessary that a 40 man should scale down to 20. I believe 35 is a good middle ground, as it does not compromise the original difficulty as much, but accounts for a handful of people being late/absent as not a hindrance to progress; as such, it is more of a convenience than an easy mode (take that for what you will). In time, I believe the scaling can be adjusted given feedback. At the end of the day, whether the raid scales down to 20-30-35-40, the content was designed to be started by 40 BWL geared raiders and completed by 40 Naxx geared raiders. The optimal group and almost required for completion remains as such.


Laughadin - 60 Paladin

[Qixel]

I know you've not raided here and do not understand the community as a result, but we've been raiding Molten Core since scaling allowed it, back in July of 2019. The progression team as a whole moved on to Blackwing Lair and AQ40 eventually, but there are still members of the progression team that help newbies and alts to gear in Molten Core to this day, like Astrld who runs an open invite raid every tuesday. There are other groups of players who raid Molten Core regularly, and this extends to other raids as well.

But none of this would have been possible if scaling was unavailable to "the newest raid". Molten Core would not have happened in July 2019, and indeed we may still not have had a single raid. It's asinine to suggest that scaling is fine on old content but not current content when it's always been fine before. To reiterate, scaling was added because the server did not have the population to support full sized raids reliably. This is either still the case or it is not. If scaling should be removed from one aspect of the game because the server is large enough now, it should be removed from all aspects of the game.

[Casualnerdity]

No scaling.
If the raid doesn't scale, there is more incentive to try to get more people into a raid, instead of having 4-5 different groups going in with "just enough" like I've seen happen in MC and BWL. Those people will have to be geared as well, which would help stimulate dungeon runs, which have been lacking for later timezones in recent months.

Additionally, how would the dev team dynamically change the mechanics of fights that require X number of roles? I was under the impression the scaling was for hp and damage done, with no change to the timings or scripting of debuffs and abilities.

I have a raiding 60 and two non-raiding 60s.

[Velite]

You still want full 40 in raid regardless. In every raid it is always the most optimal to have a full raid. Nobody is running under capacity out of choice, you run with what you can get that day.

Scaling does not change any raid mechanics, only mob HP and the auto attack of mobs.

[Darkhens2]

As others have mentioned, I've voted for no scaling to recreate the difficulty of naxx. What I'd like to further point out is that the no scaling should be applied to all raids so that new and/or existing raid groups stay together, gear up together and continue playing together.

Henry

[Gheor]

My take is also no scaling, but I will also toss in another opinion.
If new players is our concern then just one raid should be scaling and that would be Molten Core.
Remove everything else, MC is the starting raid for everyone and the one thing I have to come back to even after more than an year.

There's enough progression to get ready for 40 Man BWL and forward in MC, ZG, AQ20.

Remove scaling from MC above.

-Kratos

[Hazlema]

I understand the want for no scaling but from a practical standpoint it would be a challenge to get 40 people to raid. Server pop is not huge, sometimes it's difficult to get 30 people.

[Axoc]

I was under the impression the scaling was for hp and damage done, with no change to the timings or scripting of debuffs and abilities.

This is how it currently works, yes. Raid has to bring the same number of tanks/heals as normal and DPS have to carry more weight individually.

[Saetahn]

This isnt a matter of difficulty really , I feel like its more about server pop. I'm still a leveling player as an example and I would still like to be able to take a shot at Naxrammas with other casual guilds etc, if there's just 1-2 guilds on the entire server big enough to even run the raid then its just kind of sad you know? You can still have a difficult raid , but just have less players needed in order to actually attempt it.

[Felbrood]

Well in my opinion naxx should be scaled only when new raid hit server, since it last tier for now, here enought people to do it.

[Paladin276]

A thought,

A few people have tier 3 now, at least the first set bonus. The druid tier 3 in particular will be a net increase in DPS due to the fact that regrowth now grants rage to the warrior s that it's thrown on. It might not make a huge difference, or seem like it will, but it may be an edge the raid needs. Not toentiom Smultron has a set bonus now and the warrior bonuses are crazy good.

Why don't we try this first before we keep or remove scaling?

[Xerron]

A thought,

A few people have tier 3 now, at least the first set bonus. The druid tier 3 in particular will be a net increase in DPS due to the fact that regrowth now grants rage to the warrior s that it's thrown on. It might not make a huge difference, or seem like it will, but it may be an edge the raid needs. Not toentiom Smultron has a set bonus now and the warrior bonuses are crazy good.

Why don't we try this first before we keep or remove scaling?

yeah i hear that 2 rage is a gamechanger

[Drax]

About the Druid T3, it will really matter on MT and mana users.
When it starts being OP on Warrs is when Execute Phase starts, because you want as much rage as you can muster to execute.

[Doonis]

I believe that there should still be scaling for Naxxramas, because there are raid groups that are barely able to get 20 or 30 people for raids like Molten Core and other raid groups that aren't even able to put together a viable party composition to attempt a scaled down 40-man raid.

Additionally, for players who are only able to play during non-peak times for the server due to time zone differences or scheduling conflicts, any group that fits their schedule might be unable to get a full 40 people together for an unscaled raid.

For these reason, I think leaving the scaling at 30-40 would be a benefit to more players ang guilds.

- A level 60 warrior

[Toirto]

- vargash 60 shaman

I think making naxx take more time will give more time for game development so I'd say not having scaling is good for future content.
Though I guess that having scaling in Naxxramas would still fit the server RIGHT NOW as most raid groups
don't hit exactly 40 people quite often.
(I voted no scaling)

[Badling]

Level 60 Smultron here, Raid leader and all that of Thunder Ale.

My vote was for 35-40, but i also think that 30-40 is a good thing, canceling raids on holidays are sad!

35-40 people scaling helps with benching and people not being able to join, i hate having players sitting out from raid when promised, And you also have to realise that we're not hardcore at all, People have lives that they must tend to, Real life must always go first, we're just a bunch of nerds that love this game and server.

we are progressing smoothly enough with the currently no scaling for now, but we're going to hit some big roadblocks real soon, even with having as low as 30-35 people, And its not about making a raid easy as some people seems to think, stop saying things you don't seem to have an idea about, its just strange.

in almost all cases (some exceptions) the fights are harder and less forgiving with less people.
-Scaling only affects the HP and melee damage of a boss or mob-
-it does NOT affect ANY spells or abilities the bosses have-

its kinda rough to have to hear that people belive that the raids are easier because of scaling, and that we only want it to make raids easier and exploit or something, it's not about making raids easier, its about making it more accessible for everyone, we've been at this for almost 2 years slowly growing.

Also keep 20-40 and 12-20 for the other raids, becuase punishing our newer raid groups would be a terrible crying shame, just because some people can't find their ways into any of the many established wonderfully nice raid groups that exist, just talk to people for crying out loud! You can even start a new gang with all the new 60s we're getting!



--- I will also say this, Even if i already said it. ---
Most things of pure convenience is not a bad thing, it removes some parts of the game that is just not fun
there are several massively big pvp servers you can go on if you want the 100% authentic experience of being benched or getting naxx gear as soon as you hit 60 and getting ganked out in the world.

On here we just want to have fun and experience what comes, some of us started on here when we could not run a single dungeon, and the only way to gear was to make friends with a blacksmith! im very happy those days are over, but i will admit that seeing names that are relatively new tell us that we're doing it the way -they- don't like bothers me very little, just please don't punish everyone else with something as silly as removing scaling, one of the things that makes the raiding scene thrive even with smaller groups, Retail had it right on this one.

And another point - the goal is always for Thunder Ale n Co to have 40 people in every raid, some of you seem to belive that we are cheesing fights by scaling and that has never been done and will never be done, Not once in almost 2 years of raiding.

Not being able to raid becuase you miss people sucks! #cancelholidays
Much love - Smultron

[Moonsinner]

No scaling

[Moonsinner]

Or better 35-40

[Cerzis]

i am for scaling. not because it would be easier. no, with scaling more people have chances to raid, because there are many different timezone players are from and often it s very late or extrem early for some people. new groups could start at better times for them.
but i my eyes it s more fun to have 40 people in Naxx. it feels right.
less people means faster loot but also you are not allowed to do many mistakes. a big group can safe you but a small group is badly punished for even one mistake. and 20 people group is only different as 40 not better or worse. (less hp of boss and all these things ok, but you need to know what is to do) so the older raids should be the normal 20+/12+ scaling for finding together and fast gearing up but naxx should be not scaling staring with 20+; 30 or 35 would be good for new groups.

-Morrgoth- Raidlead of the Schmetterlingsraidgroup

[Rvindvnce]

dungeons raids should have gradual difficulty areas for 2-3-4-5man... the deeper you go the harder it gets
raids should have 10-25-40 man areas
so people could see if they are interested at all

the numbers have no explanation anyway for role playing aspect
more than that, theorycrafting is what makes old games alive

[Axoc]

Is it possible to implement loot scaling alongside the current scaling system? i.e. 20man version drops 50% of the loot of the 40man version.

The only arguments against scaling that I'm seeing are "Scaling makes it easier" (which is demonstrably untrue, unsure where this misconception comes from) and "Scaling leads to a gear surplus". There really is no possible fix for the "easier" argument since it's untrue, but loot scaling would address the gear surplus concern.

[Qixel]

Naxx already drops 2 items per boss, any reduction would reduce that to 1 or none.

[Jimmicz]

and who exactly is raiding naxx now ?

[Merikkinon]

Well, then something to think, with reference to what Dragunovi just mentioned:

Once a raid is no longer the most advanced raid (most recent) in the game, then it seems that scaling could be applied to the raid that was the last 'top raid' (in this case, Naxx, if a new raid is created)

[Qixel]

Molten Core was the latest raid when we added scaling, and we wouldn't have completed it without it. It's fair to say that the server would likely still not have completed MC due to the lack of people sticking around to not raid. It makes no sense to have a problem with it now.

So it again comes down to why scaling was added; lack of population. We either have the population to remove it, or we do not. Hold true to your ideals either way, and don't be a hypocrite.

[Pompa]

Thanks a lot to everyone who participated. Due to mixed opinions, we have decided to find a common ground and set Naxxramas scaling down to a minimum of 35; that is from 35 to 40 players. This way the feature is not completely removed but is small enough to simply avoid punishing raid groups that aren't able to reach the exact number of 40 players.