Naxxramas caling: Community Poll

[Pompa]

Greetings! As you know, Turtle WoW has a unique scaling feature where 20 man raids are scaled from 12 to 20 players and 40 man raids from 20 to 40. However, since Naxxramas is the final raid of original Vanilla, we wanted to ask the community about what should we do with it and hear everyone's opinion on this matter.

PLEASE, if you vote, make sure to also post a comment explaining why have you decided that option and if you have a level 60 already or not.

Thanks a lot!

[Bayanni]

No scaling, I'd rather Naxx be something the server comes together to defeat rather than a farm for 25 or so people in each guild that can make it

[Dragunovi]

No scaling, Naxxramas is intended to be the absolute end to Vanilla, (for now atleast) The Dread Necropolis should require a true army to conquer, not a small strike force.

[Drax]

Lvl 60 Warr, in Naxx, I think we should have minimal scalling. It's gonna help the people in future and it will stay at almost full ammount so it shouldnt change it drastically. So I will vote for 35-40

[Mina]

Scaling? For end content? There is absolutely no need for it. Make it challenging, make people actually focus on trash pulls.

-Best mage

[Suwuxiv]

I think 35-40 scaling would be fine for Naxxramas. This is a small server still yet and sometimes people do have life obligations or whatever and won't be able to make it on a given day to raid.

Filling their spot with someone capable can be very rough due to population. A tiny little bit of scaling however helps alleviate that yet preserves the challenge.

~ Faralynn.

[Lukkas462]

no scailing, i agree with both Dragunovi and Bayanni, naxx is vanilla end game, so it needs to be hard.

[Gnarbrok]

I am for 30-40 scaling. It seems to me that flexibility is healthy for raids, since it allows for raids to start even if gathering all 40 people is not possible and for people to be somewhat reassured that they can find a spot in Naxx runs when they are geared. I think 35-40 is a fine option too. (I'm not fully decided between them really.) But those above me make good and compelling points in favor of no scaling too. However, I'm not sure that scaling diminishes the difficulty of the content (please correct me if I am wrong), since isn't the point of scaling to make the content have the same difficulty with less people?
Edit: I have a 60.
Edit 2: To clarify: It seems to me that scaling nicely prevents the following scenario (hypothetical, but it is clear how such a scenario often obtains). Suppose you have 70 Naxx-ready players. 40 players form a group and run Naxx. 30 players cannot complete Naxx, and so do not get to run it. From the perspective of one of those 30 extra players, you might as well have only 40 Naxx-ready players on the server for all the good the other 29 do for them. But with scaling, this problem is alleviated. Instead of a player having to hope for 39 other Naxx-ready players to raid with, they only have to hope for 29, which is not as bad. In my experience, getting to 60 is quite fun. But what sucks is waiting around at 60 for things to happen, hoping to fill a raid spot, and scaling makes that not so bad.
You might respond: yes, but with this logic, where do we draw the line? It is not like we want raids doable by one person! I agree, but thankfully our options are 30-40, 35-40, and no scaling. So the lines have been drawn for us.
I hope my reasoning here is helpful to some.

[Paladin276]

Probably going to get Crucified for this.

Kilan, level 60 warrior.

Absolutely not. This is supposed to be the most difficult raid in Vanilla, And while scaling only affects health pools I've seen what the difference between having some scaling and no scaling. We're not the tiny server we were when Progression began, Just in doom turtles alone I'm running into Molten Core with a full raid team, and we've even had full raids in AQ40 with TABC.

[Deathbizzle]

Level 60, Rogue. I truly believe that the raid should be made without scaling because of the simple fact that the raid will be done with 40 people.. There are guilds here that don't look out for the newbies that are just now reaching 60 its taking them weeks-months to even see their first MC based off this simple fact. I do believe that the raid will have to be tweaked a little bit but at the same time TABC will be the first guild in and out based on their gearscore they easily out gear the beginning stages of the raid. That being said they also aren't very welcoming to new players looking to join the raid scene which kinda blows for people that are fully geared MC not allowing them into BWL and things like that even if there is a slot open they don't want to invite them because of 2 reasons and I'm pretty sure the NUMBER 1 reason is because of the scaling that's already implemented. NUMBER 2 because they don't want to waste their time on someone who may or may not have knowledge on the fight and most likely don't feel like reciting what that person is to do each and every raid. So in short no scaling will allow more players into those raids as well as help the newbies get their foot in the door.

[Reman]

You know who I am.

No scaling on Naxxramas. Bayanni and Dragu both put it perfectly: it should be the final challenge it's meant to be, and having scaling on that raid would completely go against that.

[Drax]

*yesterday literally bought people who werent in BWL into AQ40*

[Netbeck]

The same way Karazhan should be - no scaling. There are enough people gearing up and getting ready. It wont be a problem to get the people for it.

*edit Oh, yeah. I have a level 60 character.

[Ugoboom]

Yep no scaling please. Naxx should be a real obstacle we have to band together for. The last naxx raid we did last weekend with no scaling, felt just right in being really punishing, and I'm enjoying myself.

I'd argue no scaling for aq40 either, but i fear people would just stop raiding it because of some annoying encounters being unbearably annoying with no scaling.

[Dragunovi]

I believe future custom raids should have no scaling either, they'll be the next final frontier, just wanted to add this as an addendum.

[Qixel]

There's a lot of people not raiding Naxx with opinions on how the people raiding Naxx should do so, but my personal view is that it's hard to know if it's justified long term while the bosses have as many increased difficulty modifiers as they currently do.

At the moment, I would say 35-40 is absolutely fair. Once all the mechanics are working properly, that assessment may change.

-Engie

[Dragunovi]

Even though they're not, its their future too. They should have a say in it too.

[Sebastian]

What if result of this poll ends up to be *no scaling at all* with 50 votes, but other two options that favor scaling each with 26 votes, will you enable scaling in that scenario or not?


As much as Im aware there is only one raid group venturing into Naxx at this point and that group is struggling with raider appearance, forcing that group to raid naxx with 40 players can have negative effect on other raid groups if their members decide to go up raid tier and join other 'stronger' group.
~Bringing server together~ might end up splitting them up.
Some time ago, there was pretty much only one raid group that did '40 man' content, and second one starting at the time struggled for months to get enough players to start clearing MC. Imagine if they had to get closer to 40 players online for a raid, while other group still remained with 40+ of their own players. Having scaling enabled at that time made it easier for those players to form a new group and raid together.

This is a small server with grown-up playerbase with limited 'online time', scaling is not punishing groups that wants to raid with 40 players, and I dont think anyone is specifically going to a certain raid with less than 40 players because it might be easier to clear or there is less competition for loot that way. On the other hand not having scaling will punish a raid group that struggles to keep their raider attendance and if they dont, it will punish those players who have to sit out that raid night because raid leaders had to secure full group and invited more players that it was needed.

[Sebastian]

Even though they're not, its their future too. They should have a say in it too.

its not, 100% of players are allowed to vote, not 100% of players will get to level 60

[Sebastian]

.

[Mina]

Even though they're not, its their future too. They should have a say in it too.

By the time another raid touches aq40, I bet they wont have a problem filling it up to 40, and not even talking about naxx

[Dragunovi]

Even though they're not, its their future too. They should have a say in it too.

By the time another raid touches aq40, I bet they wont have a problem filling it up to 40, and not even talking about naxx

We don't know what'll happen by then, nothing is certain.

[Merikkinon]

No scaling, I'd rather Naxx be something the server comes together to defeat rather than a farm for 25 or so people in each guild that can make it

I am not even close to 60 on any toon, but the principle here is what I stand behind. Naxx needs to be the big one, unaltered.

[Davebert]

I vote no scaling, but only if all scaling is removed from all raids. Why is Naxxramas special just because it came out last? Everyone should have to struggle through the raids, with or without a full group.

- daave

[Davebert]

Level 60, Rogue. I truly believe that the raid should be made without scaling because of the simple fact that the raid will be done with 40 people.. There are guilds here that don't look out for the newbies that are just now reaching 60 its taking them weeks-months to even see their first MC based off this simple fact. I do believe that the raid will have to be tweaked a little bit but at the same time TABC will be the first guild in and out based on their gearscore they easily out gear the beginning stages of the raid. That being said they also aren't very welcoming to new players looking to join the raid scene which kinda blows for people that are fully geared MC not allowing them into BWL and things like that even if there is a slot open they don't want to invite them because of 2 reasons and I'm pretty sure the NUMBER 1 reason is because of the scaling that's already implemented. NUMBER 2 because they don't want to waste their time on someone who may or may not have knowledge on the fight and most likely don't feel like reciting what that person is to do each and every raid. So in short no scaling will allow more players into those raids as well as help the newbies get their foot in the door.

TABC has a public MC, Tuesday at 19 ST. If you can join discord, you can join us. :)

[Xerron]

I vote no scaling, but only if all scaling is removed from all raids. Why is Naxxramas special just because it came out last? Everyone should have to struggle through the raids, with or without a full group.

- daave

this.

[Paladin276]

I vote no scaling, but only if all scaling is removed from all raids. Why is Naxxramas special just because it came out last? Everyone should have to struggle through the raids, with or without a full group.

- daave

Sure. If thats the consensus. even scaled MC or BWL aren't any easier or harder, especially with the gear a lot of the raid teams already have. Not to mention the MC raids I've seen have had either full 40 man teams or something close to it. BWL is seeing similar numbers.

[Braisusenpai]

LvL 60, Druid. No scaling, not just for Naxx, for all future content. Making it easier decreases the challenge and the satisfaction of finally clearing a raid. With the challenge comes the fun.

[Suwuxiv]

I vote no scaling, but only if all scaling is removed from all raids. Why is Naxxramas special just because it came out last? Everyone should have to struggle through the raids, with or without a full group.

- daave

Yeah I agree with this. If people really want a challenge let's make it a challenge across the board. If there's to be no scaling in Naxx, let's make there be none for all other raids, too.

The whole point of scaling being added to begin with was, and quoting here:

We have been thinking about this because we need to be aware that even if we have the best community, we are not that big, and letting our level 60 players do PvE content without needing to set up the raid meeting MONTHS before the actual date is the best we can do to make everyone happy.

Which is literally what the current Naxx raiding group (TABC) wants to use it for. It's not to make the raid easier, it's more to make raiding doable in the event we have absences. Turtle WoW is still a low population server and now with three raiding groups the player pool of available raiders that are capable of doing Naxx is slim.

[Suwuxiv]

.

[Neltharion]

Naxxramas is supposed to be the end of the line of vanilla WoW, make it challenging, as of it would require a real army of veteran heroes in order to achieve it. No scaling.

[Qixel]

I'm in favor of removing scaling if we don't cherry pick it. If Naxx shouldn't have scaling, neither should AQ20/40, BWL, Onyxia, ZG, MC, WSG, AB, or AV.

Scaling was added to combat our low server population. We're either big enough now or we're not. Let's not pick and choose when to apply our ideals. Turtle is a community server, so since everyone can vote on it, everyone should be affected by the outcome.

[Totalmxo]

Ranthos - level 60 mage


I think 30-40 scaling is a good idea like others have stated. One player made the hypothetical of 70 naxx players and 30 cant raid isn’t exactly ethical and makes gearing not really worthwhile if you have no raid to go to with it. If the difficulty level is still there regardless of player count then why does it matter at the end of the day? Maybe have the first clear be no scaling then after the first full clear implement a scaling system to it. That way purist can clear it how they want to and then the scaling people can get it after the first clear. After the first clear if purist don’t like it then just don’t start the raid with any less than 40 people lol.

[Spacestr]

Spacefreeze - 60 mage

I actually prefer that we let the raid scaling stay as is (20-40 for 40man). Naxx is a numbers game, let it scale. People will need to perform better with how scaling works in Naxx. 20 would be unable to progress, but that's the point of Naxx. You still need as many players as you can get in order to defeat it. Even with scaling, it gets more difficult with fewer people.. so why not?

[Axoc]

Vierna/Tobon here.

Support for scaling. Voted for 30-40 but any scaling is good and ideally we would "keep" the 20-40 system. The only reasons I've heard for no scaling are the difficulty being "reduced" and concerns about gear inflation. I'm not part of the Naxx team on this server but have raided Naxx on multiple pservers before.

Gear inflation is a non-issue on a PvE server.

Difficulty being reduced is EXTREMELY valid *from a certain point of view*. If difficulty is "getting 40 people to all watch the videos about the fight & do what they need to do when they need to do it", then yes scaling reduces difficulty. Scaling however increases personal responsibility, which increases difficulty in its own sense. These are just two different design philosophies (retail Mythic raiding for example has a heavy emphasis on personal responsibility, whereas true vanilla raiding had a huge emphasis on "get 40 people to do the same thing").
Anyone who was around when Morrgoth was trying to start the Schmettersling raid group can remember how miserable it was trying to get enough people to down *Luci in MC*, one of the easiest raid boss fights in the entire game, much less get enough people to stick around through 3 raid tiers of progression for Naxx.

Yes, times have changed and the server pop has increased since then, but the issues seen at MC back then will be the issues seen in the future at AQ40/Naxx except worse, because every raid team in vanilla has major attrition issues. This can be seen just looking from now to when Schmettersling began - how many of the raiders from back then have stuck around, across all raid teams? Things are picking up because of the xpac, hardcore, etc but attrition is an issue that we haven't seen the full effects of yet as both of those releases are fairly recent.

IMO, it's too early to cut out scaling, BUT I would like scaling removed *eventually*. A good method would be that just like raids were rolled out over time, there should be scaling removed over time, eventually resulting in a raid scene without any scaling at all.
Failing that, scaling should be removed from all raids at the same time, not just Naxx.