To all my fellow Brothers and Sisters in the Light.

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Vidnar
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To all my fellow Brothers and Sisters in the Light.

Post by Vidnar » Tue Sep 10, 2024 7:11 pm

With class changes coming within the trademarked SOON time frame:
With ret not knowing what it want to be, prot talent tree being a half baked mess and holy lacking any options beside good ol' flash of light spam
What are your hopes for the biggest make or break for paladin since the cursed JotC change (and following nerf to weapon procs)?

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Wrathweaver
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Re: To all my fellow Brothers and Sisters in the Light.

Post by Wrathweaver » Sun Sep 15, 2024 8:05 pm

I hope that holy strike becomes a part of a talent tree, and not baseline.

Holy strike is one of those abilities that really changes the way paladin plays, and if it becomes baseline and not part of for example retribution, players who prefer vanilla paladin cannot escape it.

Have always prefered the auto attack and switching between primary dps seal and sotc for debuff of the next mob at the end of the fight.
Hope the devs will see this and make it optional throught a talent, Holy strike feels like a warrior ability.
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Zulnam
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Re: To all my fellow Brothers and Sisters in the Light.

Post by Zulnam » Sun Sep 15, 2024 8:50 pm

Wrathweaver wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2024 8:05 pm I hope that holy strike becomes a part of a talent tree, and not baseline.
Unless they make the 31-point prot talent something similar that causes a high amount of threat, it would gut prot palis to lose it.

Speaking of, the 31-point prot talent needs a massive change, as does Reckoning and the one-hand specialisation (lol).

To put it bluntly, nothing in the prot tree beyond 21-points is useful for tanking and/or holding aggro, which is the main challenge paladin tanks face in raids.

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Daedalus007
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Re: To all my fellow Brothers and Sisters in the Light.

Post by Daedalus007 » Sun Sep 15, 2024 10:11 pm

Wrathweaver wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2024 8:05 pm I hope that holy strike becomes a part of a talent tree, and not baseline.

Holy strike is one of those abilities that really changes the way paladin plays, and if it becomes baseline and not part of for example retribution, players who prefer vanilla paladin cannot escape it.

Have always prefered the auto attack and switching between primary dps seal and sotc for debuff of the next mob at the end of the fight.
Hope the devs will see this and make it optional throught a talent, Holy strike feels like a warrior ability.
Seems you like to copy and paste across the forums. You won't earn any sympathy by doing that.

You haven't played a Paladin judging by your posts nor do you understand the importance of Holy Strike for both Shockadin PvP and Protection PvE tanking. Holy strike is ALREADY baseline. Players who prefer vanilla can go play on a vanilla server. Those who enjoy Vanilla+ will roll with the changes and learn to adapt.

I feel that we should wait until the class changes drop in v1.17.2 before we make decisions on what will change and why/how it should change differently. I don't feel that the Turtle WoW staff are so oblivious as to not be aware of what's being said on forums and discord alike.

I'm only hoping for a few things for Paladins at least
  • Paladin blessing buffs baseline duration increased from 5/15 mins to 10/30 minimum (or more, I won't complain).
  • At least one baseline proper taunt (righteous defense aoe taunt and/or hand of reckoning single-target taunt with holy damage that can crit using spell crit % and works against both enemies and players).
  • Righteous fury giving a protection-paladin-exclusive talented damage reduction of at least 15% in deep prot.
  • Divine Protection (the pre-shield bubble we get as lowbies that's never used again after Divine Shield) converted to reduce damage by 25/50/75% (with 3 ranks, first at 5, second at 40, last rank at 60) instead of pure immunity and causing forbearance like the other bubbles; gives Protection paladins effectively an emergency 90% damage reduction for ~6 seconds without giving up threat.
  • Blessing of Protection/Freedom/Sacrifice converted to 'hands' or equivalent so they don't override actual buff blessings.
  • Purify (removes disease and poisons only) significantly reduced in mana cost to be 25% the cost of using Cleanse; having it be the SAME mana cost makes it worthless after getting Cleanse while making it cheap will greatly assist the 'support' aspect of paladins; keep it at 1 rank but just 25% the cost of Cleanse.
  • Combined with the prior change to Purify, have Cleanse able to remove poison, disease, magic and curses but doubled in mana cost.
  • With these changes to both Purify and Cleanse, there's now a cost/benefit analysis in every fight of what needs to be removed and the most mana-efficient way of doing so instead of spamming a single button. Taking Rogues/Mages off of exclusive decurse duty would also help them excel and continue to shine brightly in other areas where they already excel far better than Paladins (exclusive group-wide and raid-wide buffs, amazing CC and utility, fantastic DPS from mages and hybrid awesomeness of doing any/all 3 roles by Druids).
  • Holy Paladin Illumination talent nerfed to be maximum of 3 talent points instead of 5 so it would be 60% max chance on healing crits to regain the full base mana cost.
  • Improved Blessing of Wisdom talent buffed from 10/20% boost to 15/30/45% boost to slightly offset some of the loss from the Illumination nerf.
  • Anticipation & Toughness talents completely removed and baked into Improved Devotion Aura instead to make it far more worthwhile to obtain those talents and use that aura. So instead of 5 talent points for a 25% armor boost it will be 5 talent points for a 35% armor boost and an additional 15/30/45 defense granted to any Paladin in group that has a shield equipped AND has the righteous fury buff. Everyone else who isn't tanking would only get a 1/2/3/4/5% boost to healing done to them in addition to the flat armor increase according to rank.
  • Sanctified Command would grant a 50/100% chance to avoid dispel effects and and a 50/100% base mana cost granted over the next 20 seconds to the Paladin and their GROUP (not raidwide) which can stack with more paladins up to a maximum of 5 stacks (if you happen to have 5 paladins with the full 2 point talent, though this would be extremely rare to see). Would also recommend reducing the base mana cost of Seal of Command by at least 50% both to help those using it and to prevent too much 'free mana' in raiding environments.

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Re: To all my fellow Brothers and Sisters in the Light.

Post by Wrathweaver » Mon Sep 16, 2024 12:35 pm

Daedalus007 wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2024 10:11 pm
Wrathweaver wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2024 8:05 pm I hope that holy strike becomes a part of a talent tree, and not baseline.

Holy strike is one of those abilities that really changes the way paladin plays, and if it becomes baseline and not part of for example retribution, players who prefer vanilla paladin cannot escape it.

Have always prefered the auto attack and switching between primary dps seal and sotc for debuff of the next mob at the end of the fight.
Hope the devs will see this and make it optional throught a talent, Holy strike feels like a warrior ability.
Seems you like to copy and paste across the forums. You won't earn any sympathy by doing that.

You haven't played a Paladin judging by your posts nor do you understand the importance of Holy Strike for both Shockadin PvP and Protection PvE tanking. Holy strike is ALREADY baseline. Players who prefer vanilla can go play on a vanilla server. Those who enjoy Vanilla+ will roll with the changes and learn to adapt.

I feel that we should wait until the class changes drop in v1.17.2 before we make decisions on what will change and why/how it should change differently. I don't feel that the Turtle WoW staff are so oblivious as to not be aware of what's being said on forums and discord alike.

I'm only hoping for a few things for Paladins at least
  • Paladin blessing buffs baseline duration increased from 5/15 mins to 10/30 minimum (or more, I won't complain).
  • At least one baseline proper taunt (righteous defense aoe taunt and/or hand of reckoning single-target taunt with holy damage that can crit using spell crit % and works against both enemies and players).
  • Righteous fury giving a protection-paladin-exclusive talented damage reduction of at least 15% in deep prot.
  • Divine Protection (the pre-shield bubble we get as lowbies that's never used again after Divine Shield) converted to reduce damage by 25/50/75% (with 3 ranks, first at 5, second at 40, last rank at 60) instead of pure immunity and causing forbearance like the other bubbles; gives Protection paladins effectively an emergency 90% damage reduction for ~6 seconds without giving up threat.
  • Blessing of Protection/Freedom/Sacrifice converted to 'hands' or equivalent so they don't override actual buff blessings.
  • Purify (removes disease and poisons only) significantly reduced in mana cost to be 25% the cost of using Cleanse; having it be the SAME mana cost makes it worthless after getting Cleanse while making it cheap will greatly assist the 'support' aspect of paladins; keep it at 1 rank but just 25% the cost of Cleanse.
  • Combined with the prior change to Purify, have Cleanse able to remove poison, disease, magic and curses but doubled in mana cost.
  • With these changes to both Purify and Cleanse, there's now a cost/benefit analysis in every fight of what needs to be removed and the most mana-efficient way of doing so instead of spamming a single button. Taking Rogues/Mages off of exclusive decurse duty would also help them excel and continue to shine brightly in other areas where they already excel far better than Paladins (exclusive group-wide and raid-wide buffs, amazing CC and utility, fantastic DPS from mages and hybrid awesomeness of doing any/all 3 roles by Druids).
  • Holy Paladin Illumination talent nerfed to be maximum of 3 talent points instead of 5 so it would be 60% max chance on healing crits to regain the full base mana cost.
  • Improved Blessing of Wisdom talent buffed from 10/20% boost to 15/30/45% boost to slightly offset some of the loss from the Illumination nerf.
  • Anticipation & Toughness talents completely removed and baked into Improved Devotion Aura instead to make it far more worthwhile to obtain those talents and use that aura. So instead of 5 talent points for a 25% armor boost it will be 5 talent points for a 35% armor boost and an additional 15/30/45 defense granted to any Paladin in group that has a shield equipped AND has the righteous fury buff. Everyone else who isn't tanking would only get a 1/2/3/4/5% boost to healing done to them in addition to the flat armor increase according to rank.
  • Sanctified Command would grant a 50/100% chance to avoid dispel effects and and a 50/100% base mana cost granted over the next 20 seconds to the Paladin and their GROUP (not raidwide) which can stack with more paladins up to a maximum of 5 stacks (if you happen to have 5 paladins with the full 2 point talent, though this would be extremely rare to see). Would also recommend reducing the base mana cost of Seal of Command by at least 50% both to help those using it and to prevent too much 'free mana' in raiding environments.
Please calm down and stop being so aggressive.

Paladin is not my main class and i am far from a raiding expert.
This is not about numbers for me.
Every problem that paladin currently have should be solved without having holy strike on every spec.

I am mainly just focused on bringing back the class identity that got lost for paladin during the last class changes.
What i want is to atleast have one spec free from holy strike.
Just adding holy strike as a baseline is an easy way of solving things, but one that really changes the gameplay in a way that is not for everyone.

It is important that lvl 60 raiding problems is adressed with new abilities at lvl 60 and does not distrupt leveveling like the jotc weapong proc.
Add holy strike at 60 if its a 60 problem, and leave the leveling paladins alone.
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Re: To all my fellow Brothers and Sisters in the Light.

Post by Daedalus007 » Wed Sep 18, 2024 12:51 am

Wrathweaver wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2024 12:35 pm Please calm down and stop being so aggressive.

Paladin is not my main class and i am far from a raiding expert.
This is not about numbers for me.
Every problem that paladin currently have should be solved without having holy strike on every spec.

I am mainly just focused on bringing back the class identity that got lost for paladin during the last class changes.
What i want is to atleast have one spec free from holy strike.
Just adding holy strike as a baseline is an easy way of solving things, but one that really changes the gameplay in a way that is not for everyone.

It is important that lvl 60 raiding problems is adressed with new abilities at lvl 60 and does not distrupt leveveling like the jotc weapong proc.
Add holy strike at 60 if its a 60 problem, and leave the leveling paladins alone.
I'm being 'aggressive' because you're being an incompetent buffoon with empty air instead of a brain in that thick skull of yours.
You clearly don't play Paladin, understand the Paladin class, or even the most basic mechanics of how Paladins work on Turtle WoW.
You claim 'class identity' but forget that nearly every class has received updates and changes away from 'pure vanilla'. If you want healbot/buffbot-only Paladins there's plenty of vanilla servers to accommodate that aspect of gameplay.

Turtle WoW is an all or nothing thing. One doesn't simply pigeon-hole an entire hybrid class into nothing but a single role at 60. That's not how it works. Even Druids get to do all 3 roles of Tank, DPS, and Heals with fantastic effectiveness and viability so that they have a clear option of roles in an end-game Level 60 raid group. Variety in classes helps create a unique environment for Turtle WoW.

For Protection Paladin Tanks dealing with the way that (most) DPS play in a PUG group, Holy Strike & Improved Righteous Fury combined can act as one of the few reliable 'taunts' available outside of the Judgement on a cooldown that costs 3 talent points.
With Shockadin, Holy Strike allows them to do some actual damage as a melee caster instead of only relying on auto attacks and the occasional Holy Shock off of cooldown.
And of course with Retribution Paladins, Holy Shock is the cornerstone of their DPS toolkit.

You sound like so many others: angry that Paladins on Turtle WoW aren't relegated to a single role and nothing else. Perhaps be less angry and go roll one to understand the class you criticize before you post.

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Re: To all my fellow Brothers and Sisters in the Light.

Post by Bigsmerf » Wed Sep 18, 2024 4:20 am

Daedalus007 wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 12:51 am
Wrathweaver wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2024 12:35 pm Please calm down and stop being so aggressive.

Paladin is not my main class and i am far from a raiding expert.
This is not about numbers for me.
Every problem that paladin currently have should be solved without having holy strike on every spec.

I am mainly just focused on bringing back the class identity that got lost for paladin during the last class changes.
What i want is to atleast have one spec free from holy strike.
Just adding holy strike as a baseline is an easy way of solving things, but one that really changes the gameplay in a way that is not for everyone.

It is important that lvl 60 raiding problems is adressed with new abilities at lvl 60 and does not distrupt leveveling like the jotc weapong proc.
Add holy strike at 60 if its a 60 problem, and leave the leveling paladins alone.
Turtle WoW is an all or nothing thing. One doesn't simply pigeon-hole an entire hybrid class into nothing but a single role at 60. That's not how it works. Even Druids get to do all 3 roles of Tank, DPS, and Heals with fantastic effectiveness and viability so that they have a clear option of roles in an end-game Level 60 raid group. Variety in classes helps create a unique environment for Turtle WoW.

For Protection Paladin Tanks dealing with the way that (most) DPS play in a PUG group, Holy Strike & Improved Righteous Fury combined can act as one of the few reliable 'taunts' available outside of the Judgement on a cooldown that costs 3 talent points.
With Shockadin, Holy Strike allows them to do some actual damage as a melee caster instead of only relying on auto attacks and the occasional Holy Shock off of cooldown.
And of course with Retribution Paladins, Holy Shock is the cornerstone of their DPS toolkit.

You sound like so many others: angry that Paladins on Turtle WoW aren't relegated to a single role and nothing else. Perhaps be less angry and go roll one to understand the class you criticize before you post.
I hate to be that guy, but you're probably complaining for nothing. Wrath hasn't suggested once that Pally should be "relegated to a single role and nothing else", but alternatively suggested making the playstyles more viable in a way that was more in line with how they played originally in vanilla.

At least that's my interpretation, at least. No need to be so condescending. :P
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Re: To all my fellow Brothers and Sisters in the Light.

Post by Atreidon » Wed Sep 18, 2024 6:31 am

All the man wants is to be able to use judgement of the crusader.

I also hated cs while leveling. It takes ages to stack and costs tons of mana. You basically only use it against elites.

Seal of the crusader is a dead spell before you gain some oncredibly rare weapons that make use of it.

But lets be honest, it poccing stuff was a mistake anyway.

As for holy strike, it actually fits extremely well with tank paladins playstile and it was a great addition to make him more viable as a dungeon tank. Just throwing that back to lvl 60 makes pala tanks a bit more frustrating to tank single mobs.

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Re: To all my fellow Brothers and Sisters in the Light.

Post by Akos1896 » Wed Sep 18, 2024 10:53 am

I doubt it would ever gappen but I'd turn holy into a melee-range healer which uses melee attacks to power up fast/instant heals.
Retail-like I know but it would give them a really unique flavor. Rn when I play my holy pala I kinda feel like a budget priest with better mana management. Totally viable but totally boring.

Would also love it design-wise. Lemme explain.
The other healers each have a caster tree for their respective class, meaning that they can complement their healing playstyle with damage/utility from healing range.
Priests can pain and wand, shamans can dot shock and interrupt, drus can put on insects swarm, faery fire etc.
Since paladin has no caster talent tree, holy pala lacks these options. At the same time, since it has melee trees, a close-ranged healer could totally use the melee toolset to complement its healing. Hammer of justice, consec, even judgements. Hpal is boring partially because it lacks the complementary elements the other healers have unless it runs to melee range.
Last edited by Akos1896 on Wed Sep 18, 2024 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

Atreidon
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Re: To all my fellow Brothers and Sisters in the Light.

Post by Atreidon » Wed Sep 18, 2024 11:00 am

Problem is melee healer as a concept requires a lot on changes to the game. Plenty of mobs haveinterrupts, silences & manaburn as well as other effects that totally demolish whixhever healer that is in melee range.

Additionally the interface of the game does a bad job at showing you where your party is at, making it very difficault (particularly in big fights) to find the person who needs healing.

It would be cool, but requires a lot of work, not just on the spec, to make work

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Re: To all my fellow Brothers and Sisters in the Light.

Post by Ravenstone » Wed Sep 18, 2024 12:24 pm

Akos1896 wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 10:53 am holy into a melee-range healer
It was meant to be this originally, but they messed it up and made it too strong as a sit back and heal class. And then I assume that as Holy was the only decent spec raiding wise they left it as is. That playstyle works well in PvP though.

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Re: To all my fellow Brothers and Sisters in the Light.

Post by Akos1896 » Wed Sep 18, 2024 2:19 pm

The other thing is that imo melee-paladin (both prot and retri) has a very weird scaling.
Answer will be long. Please only react if you're willing to read through the whole bulk of text.
I see many Alliance players rolling pala because they heard how OP they are and want an easy game experience but this is not entirely true. Pala is a rollercoaster of viability as the game progresses, often going to the extremes at either side. Melee, I mean, I won't mention holy in this.

The main categories I check are solo-leveling/farming, dungeons, raiding and PVP.

During solo-leveling/farming pala is arguably one of the 2 best classes. It's okay, they remain consistent with this one.
At dungeons retri is all-around decent and prot, if played well and geared well for its level range is arguably broken. Imagine 2 runs at the same dung. First with a shielded warrior. The guy pulls the packs, establishes threat. Seemingly struggles with larger packs sometimes. Gives some utility to melee but none to a caster or a healer. Same run with prot. The guy gives the perfect buff for everyone, Leeroys in, pulling 3 packs and killing all in 1 min while being the top DPS. Dungeons are designed to have a lot of trash and strong but not unfairly strong bosses. The palas relative lack of defensives and its extreme aoe threat generation feels like a cheat code for this setup.
At raiding, which is what most people wanna do in the long run, things change drastically. I had many ret pala friends complaining when they joined a guild and started raiding that guild lead asked them to switch to holy. I heard rumors about super OP pala DPS at raids but seen many DPS logs up to Naxx and retri struggles at raids on those ones. Not as bad as enh, they are not a meme. But I regularly see ret palas near the bottom of the DPS list, at around moonkin range. I also got confirmation that their damage to threat ratio is really bad. Despite the low output, they can easily overaggro. They also bring nothing unique to the table because every pala worth their penny has BoK talented.
I see it as kinda unfair towards the playerbase. I see a lot (I mean a LOT) of retri pala levelers at the Ally side, since they think they will raise an OP character. I'm kinda convinced that if I run around with 10-20 DPS logs from different raids, half of them would reroll.
Prot pala is a bit different. They fall from dungeon tank gods to raid utility tanks. They don't fall so deep but they do fall from higher. Raid structure is different and while there are niches when AoE tanking is really useful, the bread and butter of raid tanking is stacking up defensive stats and pushing the defensives while shítting out threat for a longer period of time. This structure favors prot pala much less than the dungeon structure. Defensives are almost lacking, stats are more diversified because things like spell hit, spell damage and even int are have to be included and mana is a finite resource.
At PVP it is a bit weird. They are indeed overtuned but they are the overtuned class in the undertuned faction. Some things palas do in PVP can be disgusting but they'll most probably still end up losing the BGs because of horde racials.

So retri goes from a decent dungeon build to a mediocre raiding build. Good at farming, unfair at PVP.
Prot goes from dungeon god to utility OT at raids. Good at farming, unfair at PVP.

I'd trim off the extremes. Would nerf some aspects of the melee pala (PVP - while also making faction racials moire fair - and AoE tanking effectiveness) while would buff them at other aspects, mostly for raids (better sustained DPS for retri, better defensives for prot).

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Re: To all my fellow Brothers and Sisters in the Light.

Post by Daedalus007 » Wed Sep 18, 2024 6:21 pm

Paladins and every other class are getting revamps for v1.17.2 and it may be far too early to guesstimate on how things will go from here without some information from the team.

Akos I have no idea what kind of Paladin style you played or if you played Paladin at all while leveling to max or doing any kind of raiding but your viewpoint seems to be based on vanilla instead of Turtle-WoW. Everything you said seems to be vanilla-based PvE minus a brief mention of Holy Strike and PvP.

As someone who's actually done all that you've talked about, lemme give you the real picture.
First, I won't be enough of an absolute clown as you are to ignore actual raid mechanics that actively harm and punish those who are casting spells in melee range. That's a stupid idea and a stupid design. It was never going to work that way and eventually by Tier 3 Blizzard finally realized this. Holy Paladins in melee aren't going to be a thing and nothing you suggest will ever change that. You're actively an absolute moron for even suggesting this and I question whether you've ever done a single raid in any version of vanilla either on Turtle WoW or otherwise.

Warriors don't use shields when tanking non-raid bosses; they often use shields only for specific sections/parts/phases and then do fury/prot to build up threat before swapping back. In dungeons no warrior bothers to be prot or use a shield as it doesn't build up threat fast enough to satisfy the 'rush' mentality of most DPS on the server and that's partly why you see an empty valley without tanks (or healers) in the LFG system. People tired of trash DPS who don't know how vanilla aggro works.

In leveling dungeons, a Paladin does not 'leeroy in and pull 3 packs'. You're thinking of WotLK Paladin that can do that pretty easily and self-sustain (even solo) but not in Vanilla. Even with the buffs to Paladins the tank still needs to keep an eye on damage and avoid pulling too many packs of ELITE mobs. If they're non-elite then a Paladin has a bit more leeway to pull but elite mobs are still very tough. As a brief example, the elite mobs both inside AND outside of Uldaman in the infamous 'tablet room' are so numerous and respawn so quickly as to overwhelm anything that isn't a min-maxed group of level appropriate characters. Even fully raid-geared 60s who aren't in a tanking gear/spec can end up dying to these mobs (spamming interrupts) if they aren't careful about it. Merely typing this kind of garbage into a post and thinking you are correct in your assumption makes you seem like an ass, as the saying goes. You don't know because you're talking nothing but flatulence from said ass.

In raiding, Paladins are often asked to go Holy if healing is an issue for the raid and if they want to use the (frankly busted) 100% mana regen for healing spells via the Illumiantion talent. Many raid leaders end up being like you and aren't in tune with how Turtle WoW paladins work compared to regular vanilla. They still feel Paladin tanks or DPS aren't as useful or necessary and they'd be quickly mistaken. Shamans (without a proper taunt at all) have tanked Naxx in raiding guilds. If the guild works together they can do whatever is needed to get done and that includes Prot Paladin main tanks and otherwise. With the JoJ taunt they can actively plan and perform in 99% of raids and raid bosses, minus a handful of raid bosses that mana-drain (a certain boss in AQ20 comes to mind). Paladin DPS requires specific gear and setup but can perform on-par with most other DPS. Thing is that vanilla isn't even about min-maxing and never has been. It was made to be easy enough for a wide variety of skill levels to enjoy raiding. The community being hostile and exclusionary to force absolute instrumental play is what caused the shift towards that being a requirement for raiding.

All 3 paladin specs on Turtle WoW are useful and viable and capable of whatever is needed both leveling and at endgame raiding and in PvP. Prot pally may be relegated into a 'point defense' role but they can perform that role fairly well. The hybrid Prot/Ret build for PvP also works pretty well in both damage and survivability while being built like an absolute tank.

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Re: To all my fellow Brothers and Sisters in the Light.

Post by Akos1896 » Wed Sep 18, 2024 6:59 pm

Daedalus, we discussed this earlier. To my direction, your mouth is shut. Thanks.

I don't wanna disrespect you. But if you're arguments start with 'btw you're a clown', I wish not to partake in those arguments.

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Re: To all my fellow Brothers and Sisters in the Light.

Post by Bigsmerf » Wed Sep 18, 2024 11:06 pm

Based Akos moment.
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Re: To all my fellow Brothers and Sisters in the Light.

Post by Raggni » Thu Sep 19, 2024 2:30 am

Longer base durations for blessings would be great. Anything else is just gravy.
Akos1896 wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 6:59 pm if you're arguments start with 'btw you're a clown', I wish not to partake in those arguments.
Daedalus007's bullying tactics do make it pretty difficult to take anything they say seriously. Give that a rest so your long posts aren't just skipped over, Daedalus!

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Re: To all my fellow Brothers and Sisters in the Light.

Post by Vidnar » Fri Sep 20, 2024 9:29 am

Jesus Christ Allmighty
First post on the forum in over two or three years of playing turtle wow and the first thing i get is a classic "nerf paladin" solution and a bunch of children throwing tantrums over mean words cause they cant respond to a valid albiet harsh response. The meme is indeed real.

Deadalus is right in his "bullying" cause its the only language people tend to understand. Look at all the other pally posts that sooner or later devolve to thinly veiled crying about how supposedly OP paladins are. Completely ingoring the issues the class is facing like:
- cookie cutter talent builds (famous 0/21/30 for T A N K I N G)
- horrible mana cost/effeciency ratio (Example: exorcism, HoW, Holy Wrath)
- Crusader Strike being a noob trap of a mana sink (Did you know custom melee pally skills have almost zero interaction with judgement/seal system?)
- Bugged skills (Example: holy strike bugging auto swing with wf, judgement wasting mana and seal without proccing seal effect)
- No good way of generating mana as a class itself (Try using JoW without all those bonus damage items. Good luck)
- The only support being relegated to passive buffs (Again, nothing changed to dispell the buffbot myth)

So, after all that you read, is the thing we wanna focus is few mean harsh words? Or do we try to figure out some creative ideas, either of our own making or borrowed from the systems/expansions, so that we can finally cast out the shadow of OG paladin haters that damned our favorite holy warriors for days to come?

Atreidon
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Re: To all my fellow Brothers and Sisters in the Light.

Post by Atreidon » Fri Sep 20, 2024 9:48 am

You are correct in the assessmet that paladin despite its immense strenghts is a class filled with bugs and broken/unintuitive mechanics.

But the powerlevel of the class is for the most part fine and in some situations its outright overpowered (aoe farming with flamewrath for instance)

What the class desperately needs is a retooling. Manacost adjustments for his offensive tree, adjustments to sor sow & soc where all serve different usecases, a bugfix to holy strike & soc applying dmg bonuses twice etc.

But these are changes that should happen without making paladin stronger. Because the other classes have a reason to be spiteful if they see paladins performance in bgs & while farming.

Bullying is not necessary and outright detrimental to ge people to accept the necessary changes - be that paladins or other players.
Bullying in the style of daedalus is especially fruitless if it tries to solve problems that dont need fixing (e.g. bigger blessing durations)

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Raggni
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Re: To all my fellow Brothers and Sisters in the Light.

Post by Raggni » Fri Sep 20, 2024 1:49 pm

Vidnar wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2024 9:29 amDeadalus is right in his "bullying" cause its the only language people tend to understand.
I can't recall ever seeing someone say something to the effect of "Your insults and caustic aggression have really swayed me to see things your way." It seems to just turn people off to the ideas and often devolves into a distracting side argument (like this one). It might win points with bystanders who already agree and are also frustrated. It probably feels like a win if the other side is intimidated or frustrated into refusing to engage further. That's not the same as getting your point across or convincing anyone, though.

Don't shoot yourself in the foot by presenting valid information in a package that's going to make people dismiss it out of reflex, is all I'm saying. Whether or not people are right or wrong about just refusing to hear it, the fact of the matter is that it's still causing valid information to be dismissed. A little basic tact can go a long way. Daedalus and others like them clearly have a lot of knowledge and experience, and they put a lot of effort and relevant information into their posts, so it's a shame to see it dismissed because they couldn't refrain from adding some insults and hostility that don't add anything to the very relevant points that they're trying to make.

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Re: To all my fellow Brothers and Sisters in the Light.

Post by Olfman » Sat Sep 21, 2024 10:49 am

Atreidon wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2024 9:48 am Because the other classes have a reason to be spiteful if they see paladins performance in bgs & while farming.
Meanwhile, shamans, warlocks and mages exist.

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Re: To all my fellow Brothers and Sisters in the Light.

Post by Vidnar » Sun Sep 22, 2024 5:35 pm

For two years there was an attempt at civil discussion but this thread proofs that it is pointless. People will either lie, ignore or make up facts about our class so it can stay down in the dirt as a buff bot.
If you want to know WHY there is less and less civility on paladin forums and its getting harder to take people like Akos and Wrath seriously, go read other topics and see how in almost all of them some troll/idiot/hater comes over and starts throwing methaphorical shit on the subject instead of helping us fix this jumbled mess of a class.

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Re: To all my fellow Brothers and Sisters in the Light.

Post by Akos1896 » Sun Sep 22, 2024 6:30 pm

Vidnar, my goal was not to keep the paladin class in a disadvantageous position.
If you actually read what I have written, I think that their balance can be 'off' to both directions depending on the context. My goal is to nerf them where they are too strong and buff them where they need help.
Don't mention my name in the same context with the same tone ever again.

I want to avoid further animosity and discuss this in a civilized way.
Will be extremely tldr, wanna write my opinion in detail to avoid misunderstandings from my end.

Based on what I've seen and experienced, I'm telling you, my opinion. about the current state of paladin builds, which will probbaly change as the class changes come.
I do not see them as OP monsters. But I see a duality in the perception of the paladin. One side is like 'I heard that my bro got instakilled in BG by a plate-wearer in a bubble who can selfheal etc', the other side is like 'we were bad for 15 years at Vanilla servers and at the moment the bullying target becomes decent, bullies start to hate'. Both of these are exaggerations.
Paladin was an individually weak class built upon utility. It is true that TWOW 'readded' originally existing abilities to the pala which were removed before realease because of gameplay-ideological reasons. Pala was supposed to be more than what we got back in the day.
Blizzard has learnt from its failure and made every build decent for later expansions (maybe except for the cats, Blizzard has no idea what to do with cats).
We are here arguing over a problem which was solved by Blizzard 10+ years ago.
But we are also limited in how to execute our own changes since every big conceptual change will go against the Vanilla+ design of the server. So design space is rather narrow.

TWOW made paladin a more valid class by increasing DPS output and giving prot more ways to use holy damage to generate threat (among other changes).
But by doing so, they also created a very bursty gameplay rotation (based on holy damage!) which rubbed many people the wrong way. This is why those guys think palas are demi-gods and they repeat stuff like 'nerf holy strike' and 'crusader strike bad' even if they don't know what those abilities even do.
Pala being disgustingly good in PVP is not an opinion. That burstiness with holy damage, paired with that amount of armor and the ability to self-heal (and to use freedom in case of movement impairment) is really strong. However, palas at PVP still have bad matchups and people tend to forget that palas are not the only class with disgusting PVP (ele shamans, feral druids, several lock builds, shadow priests, maybe even frost mages; feels weird that rogues aren't even on this list). People exaggerate here: pala PVP is indeed disgusting but you can argue that an ele shaman (which doesn't get this amount of sh*t) is equally disgusting at PVP. Here people sit on the 'bro, I got one-shot, it was holy damage in a bubble bro' train and start to argue about things they don't fully understand.
Despite freedom, you can kite the pala. A good hunter, ele shaman or frost mage can easily win those matchups.
But based on this, the 'pro-pala' side flat-out calls the 'pala-haters' retards, arguing that since there are several disgusting PVP builds, pala's PVP tier is justified and nothing should be changed at all.
I'm somewhere in the middle. Would tune down all classes at PVP which I consider above A rank. But it's a personal opinion.

The other side of the coin is raid performance which is a lesser known aspect of the pala because it can't be that easily sold by things like 'bro they one-shot in a bubble bro'.
Palas (not including holy in this whole thing, they are different) are more-or less struggling at the raiding environment. I heard people talking about super-DPS retris and such but every time I was at a raid, I checked the logs and retri consistently places itself around moonkin, well below those who are usually top DPS (some mages and warriors, followed by warlocks, rogues, even an ele shaman if someone has a TF). People tell that pala is bad and nerf holy strike etc without knowing how low sustained DPS retri has (and how much threat it generates for that limited damage).
As for prot, the instance logic changes with raids. At dungeons, the focus is to handle the trash packs, which are followed by a manageable boss which doesn't do too much damage. This is pala heaven, since their tanking toolkit is optimalized for situations where they are hit by many smaller-hitter mobs. At raids the focus is to survive and keep threat on a 30 meter big dragon while the DPS has some sort of epileptic seizure and speedruns button-smashing. Prot pala goes from a very good dungeon tank (in my opinion, the best) to a utility raid tank, preferably offtank. Can still MT almost everything but less ideally than a warrior.

In short, pala is extremely strong at PVP but has weak matchups and not more oppressive than some of the other classes. At raiding, pala is weak.
And what triggers me regarding this whole thing is the way people go around the whole pala vs. shaman thing. Of course it has to be pala vs. shaman. The average TWOW player is a somewhat bald, 30+ guy with a job. And these 30+ guys somehow find a way to spread hate with the pala vs. shaman topic since these classes are faction-specific and of course they represent the whole faction. In actuality it is about a weird identity feud between Alliance and Horde which I think is very childish for adults. I don't wanna 'troll with my shaman buddies to bully poor palas' or 'oppress the abandoned shammies and lie about how OPs the palas, who the admins surely play, totally are'. I just want a balanced gameplay where nothing goes above A rank or below C rank. For me it's not a pala vs. shammie whatever. I just wanna point out how I'd change this class so I'd find it more enjoyable (as the original forum thread was about).

So for the pala changes -> what I said about the weird balance (again, excluding holy from the whole thing):
I'd make them less potent at PVP, probably cutting down burstiness (and would also rework some other OP PVP classes). In the meanwhile I'd add defensives for prot and sustained damage to ret so they can move up from the 'moonkin position' at the raid DPS races.

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Re: To all my fellow Brothers and Sisters in the Light.

Post by Kribbelfritz » Mon Sep 23, 2024 6:43 pm

I only want two things:
1. A Taunt for prot paladins
2. AVENGERS SHIELD

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Re: To all my fellow Brothers and Sisters in the Light.

Post by Akos1896 » Mon Sep 23, 2024 7:13 pm

+1 for the shield, that's a cool one

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Daedalus007
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Re: To all my fellow Brothers and Sisters in the Light.

Post by Daedalus007 » Wed Sep 25, 2024 1:00 am

Akos1896 wrote: Sun Sep 22, 2024 6:30 pm*snip*
Please tell me you aren't on the class changes council. Everything you said in all of your posts thus far (in this thread and many others) shows a complete lack of basic fundamental understanding of game design, game theory, basic game mechanics, or even class mechanics of Paladins or otherwise.

I called you out (harshly) because you talk out of your ass. You have no idea what you're speaking of. Foot in mouth syndrome. My criticism towards you was to tell you 'hey go play the class before you criticize it' and in turn you lash out telling people not to even respond to you posting on a public forum. Please go sit in the corner until you learn how the world works because that's not how public posting works. This isn't Reddit or Twitter or whatever garbage social media that allows you to manipulate and shape things to exactly how you want.

Saying you want 'every class to be between A and C tier' means you want everyone at the equivalent of 'B' tier (maybe with A- or C+ on occasion) but the result is what you get from retail: everyone can do everything and classes lose that unique identity. That isn't the direction Turtle WoW has chosen and certainly not the direction that people need to hear from you or others.

The sad fact is that a majority of players suck at the game. They don't understand basic mechanics in raiding or in PvP. They don't play anything other than their favorite class. They don't adapt, learn, grow, learn engineering, check PvP guides, or any of it. They come and complain and whine and throw a tantrum because they have shit parenting from their nonexistent parents which leads to terrible child-minded people and the resulting miasma of most online discourse.

This name is an alias like so many others, nothing more or less. Nobody needs to know any more about me than what I've publicly revealed as such. My age, sex, gender, identity, ethnicity, and other factors are 100% irrelevant to the topic at hand and will remain irrelevant for those that seek to use them to criticize me.

All classes are getting a revamp in v1.17.2 which is coming 'soon' so we should likely save a lot of critique for after the changes are done. I'm quite certain people will be surprised by them if nothing else.

So finally, if you send someone into a room that's literally ON FIRE (bad takes, foot in mouth syndrome, etc) and tell them not to blast the area with a hose of water (harsh raw unfiltered criticism) and to just sit there and choke to death on the smoke and heat (trolling and hatred) then you shouldn't be surprised when said person refuses to do so.

In every conversation I presume to be speaking to adults rather than children and I don't hold back punches. Deal with it.

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Re: To all my fellow Brothers and Sisters in the Light.

Post by Akos1896 » Wed Sep 25, 2024 5:27 am

Look, we have a different opinion about which one of us is wrong.
Just let's keep ignoring eachother in the future for inner peace reasons.

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Re: To all my fellow Brothers and Sisters in the Light.

Post by Wrathweaver » Wed Sep 25, 2024 12:28 pm

Protection:
Shield benediction-strike nearby targets with your shield doing x damage and stunning them for 1 sec, does more damage against undead.

Holy:
Crown of the blessed-place a holy crown on a party member, giving the paladins melee attacks a chance to heal the target for x

Retribution:
Holy strike at the bottom of the tree, would fit well with class identity since it is paladins version of heroic strike.
( I would rather give paladin a fun new seal and tweak the numbers instead of getting bogged down in beta abilities like crusader strike and giving every spec holy strike.
Holy strike really changes the feel of the auto attack seal based playstyle, and it would be nice if players can avoid it by locking it in prot or retri).
Last edited by Wrathweaver on Wed Sep 25, 2024 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Great Sun and Glorious Leader of the Bring Back Holy Shock & Make Crusader Strike Retribution movement.
Warlock Dark Funnel lvl 34: Transfer 16 mana from the pet to the caster every second. Last 10 seconds

Akos1896
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Re: To all my fellow Brothers and Sisters in the Light.

Post by Akos1896 » Wed Sep 25, 2024 1:18 pm

I see your point but how would you compensate prot pala for the lack of holy strike?
As a pure holy damage ability it is very useful for them for tanking.

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Re: To all my fellow Brothers and Sisters in the Light.

Post by Wrathweaver » Wed Sep 25, 2024 1:40 pm

Akos1896 wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 1:18 pm I see your point but how would you compensate prot pala for the lack of holy strike?
As a pure holy damage ability it is very useful for them for tanking.
Penance of the light: Penance the target with the power of the light does x holy damage, and increase the likelyhood that the target will attack you.
Baseline but low damage, holy damage increased by up to 50%+ in protection, high mana cost.


Edit:Could increase the mana cost of holy strike by double or more 4x ect, so that it no longer becomes viable to use on a regular basis while lvling.
This is where crusader strike was before jotc was changed to proc and why i never had anything against its existence.
Great Sun and Glorious Leader of the Bring Back Holy Shock & Make Crusader Strike Retribution movement.
Warlock Dark Funnel lvl 34: Transfer 16 mana from the pet to the caster every second. Last 10 seconds

Atreidon
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Re: To all my fellow Brothers and Sisters in the Light.

Post by Atreidon » Wed Sep 25, 2024 3:41 pm

Great idea, lets take away holy strike away from the spec whereit works without negative side effects and make it exclusive to the specc who has the problematic interactions with it...

Thats so backwards. If anything, slap a onehand weapon requirement on holy strike and give ret a less problematic spell instead

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Re: To all my fellow Brothers and Sisters in the Light.

Post by Bigsmerf » Fri Sep 27, 2024 5:06 am

Imagine thinking you're more mature than someone else after calling them stupid (rather than just their argument. This is ad hominem.) in 420 different languages, tones, accents and dialects.



Truly, this is peak human intellect.
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Re: To all my fellow Brothers and Sisters in the Light.

Post by Vidnar » Tue Oct 01, 2024 9:14 am

So all we have offered is:
Crying that paladins are angry at people who want to nerf their class tigole and furor style
One or two people suggesting changes that fix core class issues
Or straight up nerfs hidden as "balance".
I dont know if i should laugh or cry at this point cause you people have no idea what youre talking about. At all.

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Re: To all my fellow Brothers and Sisters in the Light.

Post by Daedalus007 » Fri Oct 04, 2024 6:55 pm

Atreidon wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 3:41 pm Great idea, lets take away holy strike away from the spec whereit works without negative side effects and make it exclusive to the specc who has the problematic interactions with it...
Thats so backwards. If anything, slap a onehand weapon requirement on holy strike and give ret a less problematic spell instead
Making it 1h only or righteous fury only or shield only won't stop holy paladins from using it in PvP. They actually benefit the most from that kind of change and you'd see retribution paladins and 'spellret' just swapping over completely to holy tree and +spell damage stacking for PvP. Is that what you want? LMAO.

That's why I said that only people who play a class (preferably to at least 45ish if not 60) should be the ones to suggest changes to said class. All the absolute clowns in here talking about melee Holy Paladin healers in raids are the kinds of people that have no idea what they're talking about. They are not just clowns they are the ENTIRE circus.

I'll have to link this again so we get back to why hybrids have had such poor class design in vanilla. Paladins, Druids, and Shamans are all hybrids. Druids have had some awesome buffs on twow and can do all 3 roles without too much trouble (and upcoming alternate class sets will mitigate some of the difficulty in bear tank gearing). Shamans have extremely powerful Elemental SpellCaster and Resto Shaman specs for the respective DPS and Healing roles. Once class changes in v1.17.2 happen we'll hopefully have Enhance be the melee dps/tank spec that it was always meant to be.

That leaves Paladins. Holy Paladins have few changes but are kinda busted with near-infinite mana once their spell crit reaches a certain level. Protection Paladins have an atrocious capstone talent that no self-respecting tank bothers with (Argent Defender lmao). Retribution Paladins who are actually good, geared in PvP gear, and Rank 14 are one-shotting poorly-geared imbeciles who don't know how to PvP and making them endlessly complain and whine on the forums and otherwise. Paladins are often also complained about on regular vanilla servers (the ones that haven't nerfed Reckoning btw) so it seems that aspect of vanilla wasn't changed at all ;)
Holy strike and crusader strike alike give Paladins a bit more to press in between waiting on auto attacks, though mana consumption is always a concern in longer fights. With most PvP fights not being as long, a decently-geared Paladin with a good weapon (and preferably Engineering) can be a powerful force to reckon with.

But we aren't here to discuss PvP at all are we? WoW was always built for and designed primarily around PvE and we've seen the path that Blizzard took with 'PvP balance' being an absolute mess before they just wiped the slate clean and redid everything after multiple attempts to erase class uniqueness/identity and have 'everyone able to do everything'.
Wrathweaver wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 1:40 pm*snip*
Wrathweaver wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 12:28 pm*snip*
When you constantly talk about increasing mana costs, you have no idea how Paladin works and have likely never played a Paladin. No real need to repeat myself other than to say actually try playing a class to a decent level before you make suggestions about them. All of your changes are stupid. They demonstrate a complete lack of fundamental baseline knowledge of the class you're making suggestions for or any other classes in relation to said class. They even go against basic game design principles that WoW itself has with how endgame PvP and raiding work.

To use a meme (since that may be the only thing you can understand): STOP TRYING TO MAKE MELEE HOLY HAPPEN, GRETCHEN.

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