PvP Hunter > HUGE stealth nerf(s)?

[Ragetto]

Hello,

I’m a regular PvP hunter, and I’ve been playing BGs daily for months.

Since this morning (post-server update), I’ve noticed several troubling issues with my hunter in BGs:

1) Trap durations seem shorter (particularly Freezing Trap).
2) Several "resists" on abilities that didn’t used to get resisted (or only in very specific contexts), such as Scatter Shot, Concussive Shot, etc.
(Need to confirm the second issue to assess the frequency.)

I can guarantee with 99.9% certainty: changes have been made, and not minor ones, as they’ve completely disrupted some of my PvP routines (especially with Freezing Trap, where I have specific sequences that I can no longer execute—there’s simply not enough time). This has been tested on multiple opponents.

Before jumping to conclusions and making any decisions, I’d like to know if others have noticed these issues and whether it's a bug or a sneaky, stupid, yet impactful nerf.

PS: My spec is 30/21/0, so I don't have the talents to increase trap durations.

[Drubarrymooer]

They updated how some hunter traps works. Mainly they added diminishing returns so you can't frost trap/kite indefinitely anymore. It's posted in the changelog. viewtopic.php?f=63&t=14765

[Grizb37]

From today's update:

Freezing Trap and Scatter Shot now share diminishing returns.

[Ragetto]

They updated how some hunter traps works. Mainly they added diminishing returns so you can't frost trap/kite indefinitely anymore. It's posted in the changelog. viewtopic.php?f=63&t=14765

From today's update:
Freezing Trap and Scatter Shot now share diminishing returns.

Thank you both for your replies!

'Freezing Trap and Scatter Shot now share diminishing returns.'
=> This explains why, from the first trap (after a Scatter Shot), the trap's duration is reduced. So, it's normal that I can no longer execute my basic sequences (which have nothing to do with infinite trapping - that’s another issue).

I don’t expect non-Hunters or PvE Hunters (or even maybe non-30/21/0 Hunters?) to understand how destructive, (highly) stupid and unfair this nerf is. But for me, who was only still playing for WoW’s excellent gameplay (having achieved all my PvP goals and not doing any PvE), I didn’t think I’d quit the game over such a silly thing, that came out of nowhere.

It’s a shame there aren’t any PvP players on the Twow team (or at least no decent/active ones), because this aspect of the game has been a problem from start to finish.

Anyway, it's a free server run by an amateur team, so I just have to swallow my tears and take this as an opportunity to quit the game.

Have fun all, take care.

[Jkldsngkljsng]

Scatter Shot, Freezing Trap DR is how it was in Vanilla and it was also added in Classic.

[Diablowjob]

This change basically is a bug. Freezing Trap + Scatter was sharing the same deminishing was a blizzlike bug. So they made it to bugged state like it was on official servers. Thats what i know. And yes. This change suck. I am r13 pvp hunter. I play bg everyday. Now i gonna suck vs everybody because lesser trap duration, means less time to maneuver in 1 v 1 2 v 1. The problem is they bring this kind of changes without even notifying people LOL.

[Drubarrymooer]

What are you talking about not notifying people. It's in the change log.

[Diablowjob]

What are you talking about not notifying people. It's in the change log.

To notify people before the changes are implemented. And not when they already arrived lol. Also would be nice to hear some background about the motivation to make this.

[Diablowjob]

It's a huge impact to pvp in my opinion. And we still have paladins right? running around in naxx gear with 3k+ crits and hoj + seal procs which one shots you. And thats fine right? nobody care. But Scatter Trap...

[Ragetto]

What are you talking about not notifying people. It's in the change log.

Yeah, but this just came out of nowhere. They just inform us that they've made a nerf no one asked for.

I've seen requests everywhere to nerf Paladins, Druids, etc. And who do they nerf? The Hunter. This is crazy.

[Grizb37]

It's a huge impact to pvp in my opinion. And we still have paladins right? running around in naxx gear with 3k+ crits and hoj + seal procs which one shots you. And thats fine right? nobody care. But Scatter Trap...

I agree mate and I don't even play hunter, this would be a huge nerf to traps and makes hunters easy prey now for most classes.

The absolute state of paladins is a joke, 2 years now they've been busted, and all they could muster up was '50% less dmg in bubble' paladins heal in bubble anyway and rarely dealt damage.

Why does it take 2 years of something been busted to fix it? There's such a thing as hotfixes or minor patches, we shouldn't have to wait 2 - 3 years for class changes for fixes, well we clearly don't if they can throw this random 'fix' to Hunters traps outta no where, no excuse not to fix paladins ridiculous pvp damage and the double dipping on berserking. Bizarre.

[Drubarrymooer]

Diminishing returns needs to exist otherwise you can perma CC. Not every class has bugs that need fixing. You're conflating nerfs with bug fixes.

The only real class that needs a nerf is paladins and balancing a class takes times. It will more than likely be addressed in CC2.

As for bugs, they're constantly fixing bugs. Just assume they're working on all bugs and browse the bug tracker. They didn't hide it or not tell us. They fixed it, released the patch notes, then pushed the update. This is how it goes every week and is pretty standard in software/game development.

[Ragetto]

Diminishing returns needs to exist otherwise you can perma CC. Not every class has bugs that need fixing. You're conflating nerfs with bug fixes.

The only real class that needs a nerf is paladins and balancing a class takes times. It will more than likely be addressed in CC2.

As for bugs, they're constantly fixing bugs. Just assume they're working on all bugs and browse the bug tracker. They didn't hide it or not tell us. They fixed it, released the patch notes, then pushed the update. This is how it goes every week and is pretty standard in software/game development.

I explained that this has nothing to do with perma CC. This is about the FIRST trap you set (after the scatter shot), whose duration is reduced, making the follow-up much harder to manage against most classes. To fix a super rare situation, they nerfed the hunter in one of its most common scenarios.

I find it hard to believe that they didn’t have infinitely more urgent bugs to fix than this one, especially since the Hunter has never been considered overpowered, even with this 'bug.'

Just an amateur team mindlessly fixing 'issues' without asking themselves if it's useful or necessary

[Diablowjob]

Diminishing returns needs to exist otherwise you can perma CC. Not every class has bugs that need fixing. You're conflating nerfs with bug fixes.

The only real class that needs a nerf is paladins and balancing a class takes times. It will more than likely be addressed in CC2.

As for bugs, they're constantly fixing bugs. Just assume they're working on all bugs and browse the bug tracker. They didn't hide it or not tell us. They fixed it, released the patch notes, then pushed the update. This is how it goes every week and is pretty standard in software/game development.

As far as i know mate. Scatter + Trap having shared deminishign was a 'bug" back to classic. Its also been adressed at vmangos forums for years. Never been fixed. As far as i understood here we had not "bugged" version of scatter + trap. But now they decide to return it to a "bugged" state jsut because it was a bug and never been fixed since then. Its just lol as it is. I bet someone cried hard about hunters to dev team, so they made it. gratz.

[Bjorn88]

Snowflake devs destroying pvp again. What a completely stupid nerf. Isn't the cd on traps like 45 sec already? Diminishing on scatter and concussive shots also have cds that absolutely do not warrant diminishing returns?

That said, Ragetto please don't quit the game, tel'abim horde needs ya on. o7

[Diablowjob]

Wait i know. They make t3.5 last set bonus "Freezing Trap and Scatter shot not share deminishing return".

[Jkldsngkljsng]

It was never a bug in Vanilla or Classic.
Stop saying that shit you don't like is a "bug" when you have no proof of Blizzard ever saying or indicating that it was. The no DR was always a pserver bug.

That the Turtle WoW devs are utter trash when it comes to gameplay design and especially class change design is another matter entirely.

[Grizb37]

The thing we've got to remember is they choose to mainly focus on Pve fixes, but don't think about the knock on effect it will have in PvP. Holy Strike for example.

They have gone out their way to make an actual PVP server (even if it's a ghost town) you now have to take these kind of knock on effects from these 'fixes' into account for pvp because you now can't hide behind the 'it's a pve server' excuse.

[Drubarrymooer]

It was never a bug in Vanilla or Classic.
Stop saying that shit you don't like is a "bug" when you have no proof of Blizzard ever saying or indicating that it was. The no DR was always a pserver bug.

That the Turtle WoW devs are utter trash when it comes to gameplay design and especially class change design is another matter entirely.

All CC is supposed to have DR. But by all means, keep insulting the devs. I'm sure that will get you heard and they'll fix it right away.

[Bjorn88]

All CC is supposed to have DR.

Lol?

[Bigsmerf]

All CC is supposed to have DR.

L i t e r a l l y w h a t

[Drubarrymooer]

All CC is supposed to have DR.

L i t e r a l l y w h a t

Is it not? I was under the impression all CC was supposed to have DR on it so you couldn't be perma cc'd. If I'm wrong, please lmk.

[Bjorn88]

All CC is supposed to have DR.

L i t e r a l l y w h a t

Is it not? I was under the impression all CC was supposed to have DR on it so you couldn't be perma cc'd. If I'm wrong, please lmk.

Do you realise what you include with "all CC"? Hamstring, Piercing Howl, Frostshock, slowing totem, fears, etc?

Dude.

[Drubarrymooer]

L i t e r a l l y w h a t

Is it not? I was under the impression all CC was supposed to have DR on it so you couldn't be perma cc'd. If I'm wrong, please lmk.

Do you realise what you include with "all CC"? Hamstring, Piercing Howl, Frostshock, slowing totem, fears, etc?

Dude.

https://vanilla-wow-archive.fandom.com/ ... ng_returns

Ok....almost all.

[Ragetto]

All CC is supposed to have DR. But by all means, keep insulting the devs. I'm sure that will get you heard and they'll fix it right away.

You can't apply the exact same restriction mechanisms/values to all CCs.

Traps are 100 times more difficult to use / chain than most other CCs (except maybe in duels, in specific situations), sheep, fear etc... which makes the current nerf incomprehensible

[Bjorn88]

Is it not? I was under the impression all CC was supposed to have DR on it so you couldn't be perma cc'd. If I'm wrong, please lmk.

Do you realise what you include with "all CC"? Hamstring, Piercing Howl, Frostshock, slowing totem, fears, etc?

Dude.

https://vanilla-wow-archive.fandom.com/ ... ng_returns

Ok....almost all.

>Death Knight

That list is almost certainly for Wotlk and beyond

[Drubarrymooer]

Do you realise what you include with "all CC"? Hamstring, Piercing Howl, Frostshock, slowing totem, fears, etc?

Dude.

https://vanilla-wow-archive.fandom.com/ ... ng_returns

Ok....almost all.

>Death Knight

That list is almost certainly for Wotlk and beyond

Yup. DR was added to most in pvp in vanilla though.... The ones that existed in vanilla.

[Akalix]

Hello all.

Yes, a "change" was made -- a bugfix, as listed in the September 4 changelog here: viewtopic.php?t=14765

Specifically, Freezing Trap and Scatter Shot now share diminishing returns.

This is a bugfix to behave blizzlike, as both in classic and vanilla those abilities shared DR.

If you would like to suggest that we change that, I encourage you to approach it that way, however large changes are coming to the Survival tree in the near future with our next patch, so they may not be long-lasting modifications.

Let this be a general warning not to let the thread further devolve into "turtle devs bad!" toxicity or punishments will be handed out accordingly.

[Ragetto]

Hello all.

Yes, a "change" was made -- a bugfix, as listed in the September 4 changelog here: viewtopic.php?t=14765

Specifically, Freezing Trap and Scatter Shot now share diminishing returns.

This is a bugfix to behave blizzlike, as both in classic and vanilla those abilities shared DR.

If you would like to suggest that we change that, I encourage you to approach it that way, however large changes are coming to the Survival tree in the near future with our next patch, so they may not be long-lasting modifications.

Let this be a general warning not to let the thread further devolve into "turtle devs bad!" toxicity or punishments will be handed out accordingly.

I apologize if I may have gone too far in some of my comments. When I wrote my first post, I had just finished two BGs, and I was in a kind of panic like, 'wtf what is happening,' and I didn’t think a discussion about it was even possible.

As said on Discord:
"Hunters are not asking for much: please just revert to the previous state. It was fine, hunters never ask for anything, and no one ever asked for them to be nerfed (while the community often complains about some other classes... which are far from Blizzard's original intentions).

I mean, this is a serious issue (on the Twow scale... we all know this is just a game), because a tier B class was brutally nerfed overnight, and there are fewer viable specs today than there were yesterday – the game just got worse than it was, and I guess that's not the objective."

[Grizb37]

I think if there were changes for survival coming, we should have waited until then to bring this 'change' nerfing PVP Hunters into the ground right now probably 2 months away from CC2 doesnt make sense....

Was the problem that game breaking it had to be urgently fixed, when its been like this since TWOW first launched in 2018?

I think what people are asking for is, this change / nerf reverting until the actual class changes patch comes when the new talents might make this not such a big hit for PvP hunts.

Whats more gamebreaking is Paladins oneshotting Naxx geared players with the berserker buff in BG's , Id rather sit in a trap scatter combo for 15 seconds than be 1 shot into oblivion with no chance.

[Typh1]

I find it more concering that people who are in power to push through changes, proof with this change that they literally have zero clue in pvp.

[Ragetto]

If you would like to suggest that we change that, I encourage you to approach it that way

So, how can we ensure that reverting this huge nerf (aka 'bug fix') becomes a 'short-term' discussion topic? (one that doesn't get lost among the millions of other topics like melee hunter etc.)

I believe 100% of hunters would agree (at least those who know/understand what has happened), and the other classes have never pointed out that the hunter was overpowered. So reverting to the previous state wouldn’t bother anyone.

Since yesterday, the hunter (a tier-B pvp class before the nerf) is weaker and offers less variety than before, and I’m afraid this state will quickly become the new normal if nothing is done. And when a class becomes less interesting, the whole game is less interesting.

[Typh1]

Sadly so many voiced opinions on this project yet so many really shitty

[Xudo]

Can someone please explain to me, why it is so painful to hunters?
I mean, Scatter shot and freezing trap both are CC which disppear after any damage done to target. All you get is some time to wait.
How long is durations now?
You need that few seconds to wait for some cooldown?

[Atreidon]

Can someone please explain to me, why it is so painful to hunters?
I mean, Scatter shot and freezing trap both are CC which disppear after any damage done to target. All you get is some time to wait.
How long is durations now?
You need that few seconds to wait for some cooldown?

It halves the average duration of any ice trap the hunter wants to place in combat, as you need to scatter first to guarantee landing the trap. For non survival hunters from 10 down to 5 seconds. For hunter with skilled trap duration from 13 to 6.5s.

But due to how heartbeat works in classic there is a substantial chance it breaks even earlier. If you are slowed at the time, thats not even enough time to get onto range