Priestess of the Moon Bow is a wonderful change, but too inferior to Wands to see usage

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Steakhouse
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Priestess of the Moon Bow is a wonderful change, but too inferior to Wands to see usage

Post by Steakhouse » Fri Oct 18, 2024 3:30 pm

TLDR: Searing Shot cannot currently make up for the much lower damage of bows, the lack of mana refund from Wand Spec, and the lack of caster stats on Bows, especially for leveling Priests who lack spellpower gear.

Hi,

I already wrote a comment about this in the 1.17.2 class changes thread, but I think it deserves its own thread to not fly under the radar.

Allow me to start by saying that I love this change. I plan to reroll Night Elf Priest the moment patch drops either way, to try it out in addition to the great changes to Smite Priest. Such a unique way to approach racial Priest abilities, and fits the lore perfectly.

Here are a few issues with Bows on Priests however, that, I think, will mean Priests will always prefer Wands :
  • Bows not benefitting from Wand Spec's bonus damage, hit, and mana return, on top of their much lower DPS, means that a Priest using a bow will deal immensely less damage and have worse mana efficiency than one using a Wand. The difference in damage is staggering: the strongest bow, Soulstring, has 50.86 DPS, increased to 68.36 with Thorium Headed Arrow ; Wand of Fates, which has the same iLvl, has 113.67, an increase of about 66%. Searing Shot granting an extra shot every 10 seconds, even with bonus damage and a spelldamage coef, will not be enough to bring the DPS of Bows to be comparable to Wands, and even if it did, the mana cost, lack of mana regen, and triggering of the 5-second-rule will still make it an inferior choice for most cases
  • Since Bows generally have physical damage stats, such as Agility, using a Bow deprives Priests of a caster stat stick. I don't think adding caster bows is the answer either, even though spellhunter is a thing: one memespec and one race/class combo is too niche to wrrant overcrowding loot tables.
  • Spellpower being mostly non-existent on leveling gear compounds these issues, meaning that any leveling Night Elf priest will ditch their bow for the first Wand they find, and likely not return to using a bow til they're decked out with spellpower gear.

Solution suggestions (pick one or multiple):
  • Change Wand Spec to Ranged Weapon Spec, and simply carry over all the effects of Wand Spec to work with Bows. Additionally, the reason why Wands have such higher damage than other Ranged weapons is because they don't benefit from Agility: this could be remedied by adding a large increase to Autoshot damage through Ranged Weapon Spec, even if it means reducing Searing Shot's numbers. Example text : Increases the damage of Wands by 12/25% and that of Bows by 25/50%*. Increases chance to hit with Ranged Weapons by 2/4%. All ranged attacks have a chance to refund mana equal to your level on hit.

    *This drastic increase would still make Bow autoshots much less damaging than Wand autoshots: Soulstring would get bumped to abou 103 DPS with Thorium Headed Arrows, while Wand of Fates gets increased to about 142 DPS, but this gap is much more likely to be closed by Searing Shot.
  • Greatly reduce the cooldown of Searing Shot such that Priests must choose between Wands for mana efficiency and stats, or Bows for damage. Alternatively, reduce its numbers a bit and convert it to a passive ability, or an auto-castable with no cooldown, that affects all auto-shots. In either of these implementations, Night Elf Priests will be able to item-swap between their Bow when they want more damage, and their Wand when they want to recover mana through Wand Spec. These effects could be attached to an Improved Searing Shot Discipline talent.
  • Add some more Bow-synergetic abilities. Examples:
    • Smite (bow) and Holy Fire (bow), which work similarly to the non-bow spells (same cost, shared cooldown for Holy Fire), but add a %weapon damage physical component to their damage in addition to a shot visual. This would also look very cool: your arrow hits, and the target gets smacked by flames from above !
    • Tears of the Moon: all nearby enemies are struck by an arrow falling from the sky. This is reminiscent of the Priestess of the Moon's ultimate ability from WC3, wherein she channeled for 40 seconds while comets fell onto her enemies.
Tell me what you think ! And once again, thank you for such a cool addition, Turtle Staff !
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Re: Priestess of the Moon Bow is a wonderful change, but too inferior to Wands to see usage

Post by Theremmy » Fri Oct 18, 2024 7:10 pm

I love the flavor of bows on Night Elf Priests as well. I wonder if in order to make it viable you could add a proc boost on Starshards instead? Like a flat 25% chance to make your next starshard spell twice as fast or something? I always enjoyed the visual of that spell and worked to try and make a viable spec out of it. One of the questions I had regarding NE racials is if they would count as Discipline spells? A lot of the new talent seem to fit in perfectly with that!

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Re: Priestess of the Moon Bow is a wonderful change, but too inferior to Wands to see usage

Post by Zulnam » Fri Oct 18, 2024 7:18 pm

The more i think about it the more i think this change, while lovely on paper, is actually a handicap.

What bows can you think of at lvl 60, from dungeons, pvp or raids, that have caster stats?

And you will need a bow to use your racial skill.

It sounds fun but now they need to add new items to loot tables, items which are virtually useless for every other class, including priests, unless you are specifically a night elf priest.

And yeah, the new wand talent (which is great) not working with bows is also a pretty big omission. Not sure how this got over the line.

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Re: Priestess of the Moon Bow is a wonderful change, but too inferior to Wands to see usage

Post by Steakhouse » Fri Oct 18, 2024 8:49 pm

Theremmy wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2024 7:10 pm I love the flavor of bows on Night Elf Priests as well. I wonder if in order to make it viable you could add a proc boost on Starshards instead? Like a flat 25% chance to make your next starshard spell twice as fast or something? I always enjoyed the visual of that spell and worked to try and make a viable spec out of it. One of the questions I had regarding NE racials is if they would count as Discipline spells? A lot of the new talent seem to fit in perfectly with that!
Starshards synergy is a wonderful idea ! Example: each autoshot reduces the channeling time of your next starshard by 1 second, down to a maximum of 3 seconds
Zulnam wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2024 7:18 pm The more i think about it the more i think this change, while lovely on paper, is actually a handicap.

What bows can you think of at lvl 60, from dungeons, pvp or raids, that have caster stats?

And you will need a bow to use your racial skill.

It sounds fun but now they need to add new items to loot tables, items which are virtually useless for every other class, including priests, unless you are specifically a night elf priest.

And yeah, the new wand talent (which is great) not working with bows is also a pretty big omission. Not sure how this got over the line.
Imo it'll take some tweaking but I'd keep faith in it. As I said in OP I don't think caster bows are the answer, but I think that with some tuning, this could be a very fun addition to the Night Elf Priest's kit
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Re: Priestess of the Moon Bow is a wonderful change, but too inferior to Wands to see usage

Post by Theremmy » Sat Oct 19, 2024 11:30 am

Could make SPI add ATP to bows for them? Idk. There's some serious tweaking to do with an idea like this. XD

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Re: Priestess of the Moon Bow is a wonderful change, but too inferior to Wands to see usage

Post by Zvyrhol » Sat Oct 19, 2024 8:56 pm

I think whole bow-for-NE-priests thing is just RP flavour. Warcraft's lore allows NE priests to use bows and that's it.

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Re: Priestess of the Moon Bow is a wonderful change, but too inferior to Wands to see usage

Post by Imonobor » Sun Oct 20, 2024 5:56 pm

Another major difference between wands and bows to consider is that you can wand in melee range, but not shoot a bow. So bows are even more inferior than they sound. No melee weaving is possible with the bow like it is with the wand, unless you wanna fancy yourself a hunter.

I also really like the flavor of this racial, but it can't be viable without some major changes.

About spellpower bows, they could make some NE-priest exclusive quests that reward spellpower bows. No crowding loot tables that way. Maybe they could even have dps to match wands, since no other class could get them?
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Re: Priestess of the Moon Bow is a wonderful change, but too inferior to Wands to see usage

Post by Bayanni » Mon Oct 21, 2024 12:01 am

Do wands have any scaling? If not Searing shots could, in theory, be higher dps with stacked enough sp. I don't think it would reach that point but it's a possibility with new raid tiers.

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Re: Priestess of the Moon Bow is a wonderful change, but too inferior to Wands to see usage

Post by Podgnil » Tue Oct 22, 2024 8:25 am

I don’t know about the usefulness of the bow, but from the point of view of some kind of justice this is wrong, at least then give the troll priests the right to wear a shield, undead swords or even chain mail so that all the priests would play for them. And as for me, the problem with wands is that they scale due to agility. I’ve been playing this game for so long and I don’t understand why, the wands cause damage to a certain school of spells and do not scale with the corresponding SPD.

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Re: Priestess of the Moon Bow is a wonderful change, but too inferior to Wands to see usage

Post by Steakhouse » Tue Oct 22, 2024 1:01 pm

Bayanni wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2024 12:01 am Do wands have any scaling? If not Searing shots could, in theory, be higher dps with stacked enough sp. I don't think it would reach that point but it's a possibility with new raid tiers.
Right but then this awesome, fun, and lore-rich addition is a shot in the foot until you reach high amounts of spell power. In other words, it's greatly inferior to Wands for leveling for a variety of reasons, mentioned above. TWoW isn't just about raiding and battlegrounds, it's also about keeping leveling fun, and, as it stands, priest bows are gonna miss that mark.
Podgnil wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2024 8:25 am I don’t know about the usefulness of the bow, but from the point of view of some kind of justice this is wrong, at least then give the troll priests the right to wear a shield, undead swords or even chain mail so that all the priests would play for them. And as for me, the problem with wands is that they scale due to agility. I’ve been playing this game for so long and I don’t understand why, the wands cause damage to a certain school of spells and do not scale with the corresponding SPD.
Except Night Elf Priests use bows in lore. Afaik there are no mail-wearing undead priests or shield-bearing troll priests in WoW. Much like night elf priests don't get devouring plague, undead priests don't get an additional weapon choice.
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Re: Priestess of the Moon Bow is a wonderful change, but too inferior to Wands to see usage

Post by Noephix » Tue Oct 22, 2024 1:21 pm

Steakhouse wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2024 1:01 pm Right but then this awesome, fun, and lore-rich addition is a shot in the foot until you reach high amounts of spell power.
So, basically, as soon as you start raiding. Because stacking spellpower is what shadow priests do starting with preraid gear.

In other words, it's greatly inferior to Wands for leveling for a variety of reasons, mentioned above.
Elune's grace was borderline useless for leveling AND raiding. Searing shot is at least useful for raiding. Probably good for leveling past lvl 40, when you don't AFK wand anymore due to your actual spells doing more damage than wanding.
Bayanni wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2024 12:01 am Do wands have any scaling? If not Searing shots could, in theory, be higher dps with stacked enough sp. I don't think it would reach that point but it's a possibility with new raid tiers.
Wands don't have any scaling and noone uses wands for damage past lvl 40.

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Re: Priestess of the Moon Bow is a wonderful change, but too inferior to Wands to see usage

Post by Eeeeeeeeeee » Tue Oct 22, 2024 3:09 pm

Imonobor wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2024 5:56 pm About spellpower bows, they could make some NE-priest exclusive quests that reward spellpower bows. No crowding loot tables that way. Maybe they could even have dps to match wands, since no other class could get them?
If we do get SP bows, I'm praying Hunters can have them too. Always thought Spell Hunter was cool, and I don't mind if it's generally weaker than Marksman. Send them on the same quest and call it the Priests making an exception if need be, tho obvs some alterations for smoother flavor would be preferred.

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Re: Priestess of the Moon Bow is a wonderful change, but too inferior to Wands to see usage

Post by Atreidon » Tue Oct 22, 2024 3:25 pm

By its very design, bow priest can not be a competetive playstile. We had the situation with dwarf priest being considered leagues above the other priests due to fearward making any bad tank deal with fear bossesno problem

If we now make another priest racial highly impactful we end up in the same spot. Arguably even more so if it enables an entirely new playstile

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Re: Priestess of the Moon Bow is a wonderful change, but too inferior to Wands to see usage

Post by Imonobor » Tue Oct 22, 2024 3:52 pm

Another way they could keep the RP potential of bow-wielding priests without all the confusing gameplay mechanics would be to allow all wand-wearers to transmog their wands into bows, crossbows and guns (and vice-versa if any hunters wanna be a fairy and shoot with a wand lol).
Always wanted a gunslinger mage anyway. Or a crossbow-wielding demon hunting warlock? So much potential.
Eeeeeeeeeee wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2024 3:09 pm If we do get SP bows, I'm praying Hunters can have them too. Always thought Spell Hunter was cool, and I don't mind if it's generally weaker than Marksman. Send them on the same quest and call it the Priests making an exception if need be, tho obvs some alterations for smoother flavor would be preferred.
That would be cool, but would also complicate the itemization even further. Besides, you already can make a spellpower hunter - just go ninja some elemental shammy gear. The meager spellpower you'd be missing on your bow is insignificant compared to the rest of the gear you can get. Ranged weapons have very small stat budgets, so that would be around 10-15 spell damage at most.
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Re: Priestess of the Moon Bow is a wonderful change, but too inferior to Wands to see usage

Post by Eeeeeeeeeee » Tue Oct 22, 2024 6:21 pm

Imonobor wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2024 3:52 pm That would be cool, but would also complicate the itemization even further. Besides, you already can make a spellpower hunter - just go ninja some elemental shammy gear. The meager spellpower you'd be missing on your bow is insignificant compared to the rest of the gear you can get. Ranged weapons have very small stat budgets, so that would be around 10-15 spell damage at most.
Very true, but I was more thinking of SP scaling on hit procs like we have on melee weapons than straight up spellpower stats. If it's just a bit of spellpower on a bow then I'm not worried if it's only for Nelf Priests. Guess we'll see if they do either one when they release itemization logs.

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Re: Priestess of the Moon Bow is a wonderful change, but too inferior to Wands to see usage

Post by Harkus » Wed Oct 23, 2024 12:51 pm

Lots of solid ideas in this thread! I always disliked nelf hunters because I felt the mechanical traps and arcane magic and such didn't fit the nelves but now I can play a bow nelf without resorting to such abhorrent magic/devices! turtle_tongue_head
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Re: Priestess of the Moon Bow is a wonderful change, but too inferior to Wands to see usage

Post by DrPeber » Wed Oct 23, 2024 1:28 pm

I love the idea of this nelf priestess of elune huntress.

I am going to say that i have never played priest that much, especially max level and the raiding scene. So this is just a noob take turtle_tongue But this would really make me want to role it when patch hits!

But would it not be easier to make it a passive or spell like Aspect Of The Hawk etc for hunters that gives nelf priest the dmg+sp and makes your equipped wand into a bow model (on theme model+improved look for each higher rank+transmog other bows into wand if the raid have a bow to give away) when you shoot and have it on the back?

Then you get all the wand stats+DPS+TP+No itemization problems with hunters/warrior/rogues etc
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Re: Priestess of the Moon Bow is a wonderful change, but too inferior to Wands to see usage

Post by Tomberry » Wed Oct 23, 2024 2:20 pm

[removed cause posted in wrong forum]

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Re: Priestess of the Moon Bow is a wonderful change, but too inferior to Wands to see usage

Post by Trymv1 » Thu Oct 24, 2024 8:31 am

Pretend youre an inverse melee-hybrid and chug any physical consumes that wont mess with your standard caster consumes (mostly food).

Get a Hurricane or Hawkeye Bow [of choice stats] and a Harpy Hide Quiver, which easily gets you under 1.5 attack speed.

OR

Never give up, never surrender, grind to that r14 bow! Equip 2-3 of the purple cloth items that give 2% global haste, enchant all the haste enchants, get that 1.8 under 1.5as! Requires about 22%ish total haste.

Unless Twow specifically killed it, theres a good chance it'll work exactly like melee weapons under 1.5as, which will hit during the GCD of any instant cast spell. IE you can spam moonfire without clipping autos as long as the weapon is under 1.5 for the GCD.

Clearly isnt going to be some god-tier meta wonder, but an easy additive if the GCD auto works. Could maybe play a PWS/Renew skank who just autos in between the casts or something.
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Re: Priestess of the Moon Bow is a wonderful change, but too inferior to Wands to see usage

Post by Imonobor » Thu Oct 24, 2024 8:47 am

Trymv1 wrote: Thu Oct 24, 2024 8:31 am Pretend youre an inverse melee-hybrid and chug any physical consumes that wont mess with your standard caster consumes (mostly food).

Get a Hurricane or Hawkeye Bow [of choice stats] and a Harpy Hide Quiver, which easily gets you under 1.5 attack speed.

OR

Never give up, never surrender, grind to that r14 bow! Equip 2-3 of the purple cloth items that give 2% global haste, enchant all the haste enchants, get that 1.8 under 1.5as! Requires about 22%ish total haste.

Unless Twow specifically killed it, theres a good chance it'll work exactly like melee weapons under 1.5as, which will hit during the GCD of any instant cast spell. IE you can spam moonfire without clipping autos as long as the weapon is under 1.5 for the GCD.

Clearly isnt going to be some god-tier meta wonder, but an easy additive if the GCD auto works.
That actually sounds pretty rad. I forgot that while wands do trigger GCD, other ranged weapons don't. This could be an interesting playstyle.

Another way to make spellpower bows (and other ranged weapons) for NE priests and spell hunters, without cluttering loot tables, would be via an enchant - one that converts a percentage of the ranged weapon's physical damage to arcane (or any other element), and adds a spell damage scaling to it.
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Re: Priestess of the Moon Bow is a wonderful change, but too inferior to Wands to see usage

Post by Steakhouse » Thu Oct 24, 2024 11:35 am

Trymv1 wrote: Thu Oct 24, 2024 8:31 am Pretend youre an inverse melee-hybrid and chug any physical consumes that wont mess with your standard caster consumes (mostly food).

Get a Hurricane or Hawkeye Bow [of choice stats] and a Harpy Hide Quiver, which easily gets you under 1.5 attack speed.

OR

Never give up, never surrender, grind to that r14 bow! Equip 2-3 of the purple cloth items that give 2% global haste, enchant all the haste enchants, get that 1.8 under 1.5as! Requires about 22%ish total haste.

Unless Twow specifically killed it, theres a good chance it'll work exactly like melee weapons under 1.5as, which will hit during the GCD of any instant cast spell. IE you can spam moonfire without clipping autos as long as the weapon is under 1.5 for the GCD.

Clearly isnt going to be some god-tier meta wonder, but an easy additive if the GCD auto works. Could maybe play a PWS/Renew skank who just autos in between the casts or something.
Sorry to burst your bubble but autoshot has a .5 second cast time so you'd need a 1.0 shot speed to not clip your gcd
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Re: Priestess of the Moon Bow is a wonderful change, but too inferior to Wands to see usage

Post by Trymv1 » Thu Oct 24, 2024 7:25 pm

Fair enough, forgot about that.

Either way, just weave slightly or something; I specified support casting there because its not like you'd ever do that as a Smite or Shadow Priest.

Wands still have the issue of putting you on full GCD every auto, on top of basically no scaling whatsoever.

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Re: Priestess of the Moon Bow is a wonderful change, but too inferior to Wands to see usage

Post by Kribbelfritz » Fri Oct 25, 2024 12:18 pm

Wont this learned skill and book will be removed?

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Re: Priestess of the Moon Bow is a wonderful change, but too inferior to Wands to see usage

Post by Gladeshadow » Fri Oct 25, 2024 2:12 pm

My immediate thought with the bow and searing shot was that it would counteract any mana regen - One of the whole reasons to use a wand is to do some dps while letting mana regen. If you start using searing shot AND do less base damage with a bow vs a wand, there is really no point in using the bow.

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Re: Priestess of the Moon Bow is a wonderful change, but too inferior to Wands to see usage

Post by Gladeshadow » Fri Oct 25, 2024 2:16 pm

I should add, I love a lot of the sugestions here. Clearly, some of you have thought this out very well.

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Re: Priestess of the Moon Bow is a wonderful change, but too inferior to Wands to see usage

Post by Harkus » Fri Oct 25, 2024 4:25 pm

Also maybe let priests get ranged attack power and crit from agility? Would finally be a use for all those int agi cloth pieces! And maybe I'm flying too close to the sun here but maybe also change Searing Arrow's element to Holy instead of Fire so it can be buffed by the Discipline tree talents? I mean Holy Fire isn't a Fire spell either now is it? hiding_smth_turtle_head

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Re: Priestess of the Moon Bow is a wonderful change, but too inferior to Wands to see usage

Post by Blackduck3 » Fri Oct 25, 2024 4:27 pm

with autoshot won't you be able to heal and cast other spells without disrupting your cast? Sounds like a good way to do a little extra damage as a healer, sure it's not much but it's better than 0.

Searing shot might be good for pvp if it's instant.

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Re: Priestess of the Moon Bow is a wonderful change, but too inferior to Wands to see usage

Post by Daoc2001 » Fri Oct 25, 2024 5:08 pm

With regards to the Night Elf Priest "Lore Racial" Bow-use ability:

Interesting concept, but seems like it would be markedly inferior to simply using wands (especially talented wand spec) for a Priest, especially while solo/leveling. I typically wand the last 20-30% or so of a pull down for mana-efficiency reasons, which is something that we won't be able to do with a bow due to the dead zone, & pulling with a bow won't be any better than casting a regular spell. So, we are getting a"lore flavor" Priest racial that is clearly inferior to wands all-around. I would have rather seen StarShards given some tweaking & love.

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Re: Priestess of the Moon Bow is a wonderful change, but too inferior to Wands to see usage

Post by Nose » Sat Nov 09, 2024 8:10 pm

I typically wand the last 20-30% or so of a pull down for mana-efficiency reasons, which is something that we won't be able to do with a bow due to the dead zone, & pulling with a bow won't be any better than casting a regular spell. So, we are getting a"lore flavor" Priest racial that is clearly inferior to wands all-around
yep thats the main issue for bow while solo , not worth the initial attack and dead zone just kill the use of bow , priest dont have roots nor snares , so kiting is not possible

convert spell / healing to ranged dmg , change wand spec into ranged like OP said

maybe convert smite holy fire MB to ranged casted spells , at least u get to use the bow somehow

how hard is to create a 60 priest only bow quest ? make it silver/white moon design (maybe a 20-40 , maybe at 20 is generic white/purple bow , at 40 the bow gets some moon draw and at 60 u get a cool epic 60 bow quest )


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Re: Priestess of the Moon Bow is a wonderful change, but too inferior to Wands to see usage

Post by Tardis2023 » Fri Dec 13, 2024 8:50 pm

I would personally like to see a big CD maybe 10 min or so that will put you into Peddlefeet mode where you morph into Kwee Q. Peddlefeet for about 15s and rapid fire your bow.

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Re: Priestess of the Moon Bow is a wonderful change, but too inferior to Wands to see usage

Post by somemagicc » Sat Dec 14, 2024 5:25 am

we need to remove the deadzone from bows

Halfgeek9
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Re: Priestess of the Moon Bow is a wonderful change, but too inferior to Wands to see usage

Post by Halfgeek9 » Sat May 10, 2025 2:04 am

Priests with bows need to stop, it was a mistake.

We have wands. We got talents to boost wands. Wands are magic dmg, ignoring armor, no dead zone. Shadow wands gain from shadow talents.

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