Prot brainstorming

[Wunwun]

I am 4 days into my night shift and my mind is wandering, or I am sleep deprived take everything with a grain of salt.

As prot currently is we have some major and minor issues.

-Lack of damage reduction.
-Somewhat lackluster threat generation
-Mediocre mana regen or staying power
- ...oh right ranged pull

I would like to suggest that DR is given to a paladin from the amount of SP a paladin has. What i hope this would acomplish is:

- Instantly transformed tier sets (except T3) into viable/decent/necessary tanking sets, without the need for someone to make new dedicated pala tanking sets
- Boosted threat generation thru SP(lets be fair on threat sensitive fights prots allready use T2 or T2.5) without needing to rely on special item of which to my knowlege there is one(looking at you fish) (someone at appropriate gear levels plase do tell me exactlly how much DOES that help with threath)
- Hopefully allowed the paladin to keep his class identity by wearing SP plate and keep STR to SP talents away
- Not negate normal dungeon tank gear since SP plate IS kinda rare before T1 and there is really not that much need for it in dungeons since we are kinda good there as we are now

"Comparing" warr tank, fury tank and pala tank.
Warrior is the classic high HP and aviodance tank negating crits and crushes alltogether. Cuddly bear is the high HP/dodge and armor tank eating crushes and crits. Both are generating threat through attacking the target.

I would like for a pally to be a somewhat low HP/block based tank. Eating crits and crushing blows thru a bit higher DR (12%?, 15%?hell lets make it 27% xD) i would even change parry talent in ret talent tree to change 50% (?) of dodge and parry into block hopefully meaning more blocks and therefore more mana returned in a fight.
Again the block focus would hopefully keep the gain mana when healed away.

...ranged pull...
Unfortunatlly here i will suggest what i have been trying to avoid. That is adding stuff from latee xpacs.
Avengers shield, i am of a belief that it IS an iconic pally spell, besides turtle alllready jumped that shark with giving us the final prot talent

Writen on a phone so excuse any mistakes and once again this is all a product of a bored sleep deprived brain feel free to debate or to call me out on my faulty logic.

[Redmagejoe]

I never like to assume that players don't experiment with class design and try to figure out what the intended playstyle is to capitalize on its strengths and weaknesses, but whenever I see these Prot Paladin posts, I am forced to come to that conclusion. I'm going to try my level best not to seem dismissive, but I've seen some of these points raised too much since the Paladin rework.

Lack of damage reduction:
This is just an egregious lie, oversight, or misunderstanding, and is provably false. Paladins are baseline tankier than Warriors in that they have the capacity for higher armor values, have a higher average block chance without using an active (Redoubt in place of Shield Block), and have the means to heal and sustain themselves without necessarily burning mana on a big cast heal like Flash of Light or Holy Light. Otherwise, they get the exact same avoidance benefits as a Warrior through Defense, Parry, Dodge, Block, etc. Couple this with the fact that they have a flat 25% reduction to all damage below a certain HP threshold. While this may not be a GREAT talent, it does nonetheless invalidate your point.

Somewhat lackluster threat generation:
I have to disagree strongly on this. While the MEANS by which the Paladin generates threat is largely dependent upon reactionary rather than proactive, the actual amount of threat generation is comparable to a Warrior's. With the addition of Holy Strike, Paladin has a much easier time generating threat actively now as well, and as long as you're not in a party full of twitchy PoM Pyro users who unleash the fucking fury 1 second into a fight (a problem which affects all tanks, not just Paladins), you should have no trouble gluing a mob to you. Further, you don't even need to burn a substantial amount of mana to do so. That leads me into my next point...

Mediocre mana regen or staying power:
This is simply not true, thanks in large part to the existence of Shield Specialization, Judgement of Light/Wisdom, and Seal of Righteousness. Prot Paladin is the single most self-sustaining spec in the game right now, albeit with a caveat. Because you can double-dip on your Judgement procs with Seal of Righteousness, you are able to keep your health or mana up for an extended period of time so long as you have time to hit the target. If your party is ERASING groups before you have even 10 seconds to a single enemy, then admittedly you will run into mana problems. Your mana sustain relies largely on how long you can spend with an enemy, and shorter fights will leave you deprived. Assuming killing speed is not the issue, the other problem may be what spells you are using and how aggressively you are burning mana to generate more threat than is necessary. Do not use Crusader Strike as a tank, it is not mana efficient to threat gen (you need 5 stacks to see an appreciable holy damage increase, and the attacks themselves do not do holy damage, thus you are wasting mana and GCD not generating threat trying to prepare to generate threat; it's not like Sunder), do not use Judgement of Righteousness just because it is up, only if you're about to lose aggro, etc etc.

I will give you the ranged pull, which I do not think is knee-capping the class like some people like to imply, but overall I don't see these other problems as Tankadin that posters on these forums seem to. The only thing worth real consideration is perhaps what can be done about Paladin's mana in cases where fight times are short to non-existent.

[Nightowl]

Tier 7 Paladin talent is underwhelming because it doesn't activate if you go from say 50% health to 19% with a single strike. It only works when you're at 25%, so if something capable of oneshotting you from 70% to 0% you don't really get any benefit of that talent. Might be a coding issue but the way it currently works it's essentially wasted.

"Somewhat lackluster threat generation"

I don't know about that. Might be a spec issue? I saw someone who skipped 31st prot talent and speced 11/30/10, taking all the damage increase talents like Improved Seal of Righteousness and Sanctity Aura in Holy tree, and Improved Seal of Crusader + Judgement (the standard 10 point buy from ret), and he was generating massive holy threat with SoR because all of those stacked in terms of damage department. He was also dishing out far more damage compared to Prot Warrior.

So u have 10% damage from 1h spec, 15% improved SoR, 10% from Aura, plus whatever the increase of Improved Seal of Crusader is. Honestly seemed inconcievable for him to lose threat unless it's some situation like Redmagejoe mentioned - if they pop CDs and go balls to the walls from 1st sec then yeah it'll be rough.

If anything I actually think that Prot Paladin is better than Prot Warrior by the virtue of him being capable of holding mass aoe aggro. Although Improved Shield Block is a very powerful talent that makes them crit immune so there's that.

[Geojak]

Sry but if yo u think prot paladins are tanker than warriors you rly need to study mechanics.

Just a few points

-No defensive stance 10% dmg reduction
-less baseline stamina, agi stats
-cannot become crit immine
-No defensive CD like last stand or shield block (you can't use bubble or lay on hands as you lose threat and oom)
-much worse item scalingm. Sp items got no defense, defense items got stengrh which leaved prot pala without threat.
-you don't use the armor aura when tanking because you need the holy dmg threat from the retri aura

Prot paladins are pretzy good at meele trash, I give you that since they can in these cases get on average more blocks. But the above points more than cancel it out. Go lvl a warrior and tank every, dungeon on the way and then do the same on a paladin and tell me warriors are squishier. From my experience, defense stance can in no way be compensated, even when I tanked in berserker stance it didn't seem worse than with paladin.

I could give you Similiar points how you are wrong about the mana issues. Like how warrior and bears never oom and then having full stop 0 threat during a bops fight.

I am sorry but you seems not very knowledgeable about paladins and just dismiss the issues.

Prots all in all have advantages and disavagatea over warriors in 5 man dungeons. But for raid tanking they are way inferior. That's when the above issues rly melt down.

[Redmagejoe]

OP never once mentioned raid tanking. I think it's understood universally that Paladins are still not in a position to be raid tanks, and that assumption was never made. If that is the point of contention, then the points presented are at odds with what the real issues are.

Assuming that these points line up with 5man tanking, as they seem to as they are the common complaints I see from Tankadin posters and are frequently easily countered or nullified, I am going to have to stand firm in my points, Geo. I have been tanking with Paladin since level 20 since March, even before the class changes went down, so I can very vividly speak on the matter of the before and after of Prot Paladin. It was an absolute nightmare, but was doable with a great deal of work and deciphering the class. The class changes resolved a great many of the class's issues, and it's an absolute breeze to tank as a Paladin compared to a Warrior. Groups that are too powerful and thus clear too fast are, as said, still an issue for mana, but it just means I have to drink every 2 pulls instead of every half dozen.

No one is suggesting that Paladins are a juggernaut next to Warriors in terms of tankiness, Geo. You're talking crunching numbers for comparison, I'm talking about the threshold one must clear to see the difference between comfortable tanking and being absolutely eviscerated by the mobs. These two classes are not that far apart, and since I can speak from experience, I can confidently say that if someone is struggling enough with this in 5mans, I believe the issue is in their preparation and not the class itself.

In short: I'm not dismissing the class as being perfect, but I think it would be irresponsible for people to make mountains of molehills as it only ever leads to either overbuffing/overnerfing of game mechanics, or contention among that class's community. Better to better inform them on the class than let misunderstandings persist.

[Geojak]

I agree with you that 5 man tanking is barely an issue as prot paladin, it's even better often time with block working great in meele trash and aoe. You only struggle (hard) in case of silencers or mana burners which are no issue at all for warriors and druids. But these are rare enough.

Paladin prots issues become crystal clear when raid boss tanking (Single tsrget thread, getting crushed and squishy, running out of mana on longer fights) That's my issue and disappointment.

Single tsrget threat and mana issue was OK when jow fire procc using was still a thing, now paladins prots are back to square one.

You can't start as a tank from start to finish. You eventually have to specc holy or stop playing endgame. And I hate that.

[Redmagejoe]

The only feasible solution I can see to the inability for Paladins to raid tank is an issue I raised to staff back during the discussion of the class changes, and that is that the final Prot talent does not fit into the rest of the talent tree's synergy, does not offer an impactful benefit appropriate for a 31-point talent, and it doesn't even actually offer any pragmatic use in common scenarios.

I'm not sure about Paladins being unable to avoid crushes, as I haven't gone through full preraid gearing yet, but it seems to me that most if not all of their preraid BiS options should be roughly the same as a Warrior's for stacking Defense, with maybe some slightly differences with the existence of Defense pieces with mp5, int, or SP. Though even my Prot Warrior was using Deathbone set.

To make raid tanking feasible, if that is an intention of the class design devs, is for the 31-point talent to either become something like Spiritual Attunement where your mana sustain relies on someone else (see: healer), or make it have a chance to proc its current effect for a fixed amount of time, regardless of HP value. That or something that synergizes with Redoubt.

[Geojak]

Let me explain the crushing thing.

Crushing strike are a fixed change and can not be lowered with defense like cortical strikes can. You need 465 defense to become crit immune. Warriors can reach this with their great tier sets. Paladins can not since they have too many stats to focus on, int for mana, spellpower, raw stamina and no tier sets.

But back to crushing hits.

A warriors shield block gives 75% blockchscne for some seconds for 2 blocks. With a total of 25% dodge plus parry, the warrior becomes unhittable since anything is blocked, parried or dodged.

IF the warrior had 24% dodge parry then the remaining 1% would all be crushing blows since normal hits are already pushed of the table.

With 10s cd that is also of global CD. That means a boss with standard attackspeed of 2.5 the warrior can reliable manage to avoid getting crushed or critted

Now a paladins. He sometimes on getting hit gets 30% blockchscne for 10s and 5 charges from debouts. He also has holy shield for 30% blockchscne for 10s and a 4 charges. This spell is also not of gcd unlike warriors

A total of 60% blockcshnce and redoubt is very unreliable, you need to be hit first so often a just 30%.
You can't get 40% dodge or parry, so you can't become uncrushable and often times you even just have 30% not 60% block up.

This all works to the point that paladins are great tanking trash with many hittitees due to more charges than warriors. And terrible at boss hit survival

Now you will say: "but geo, druids can't even block or parry and have barely any, defensive gear and a fine on boss survivability" yea but druids easily get to 5k health + unbuffed and 15k+ armor. They can soak those crits and crushes. The average preraid bid prot pala has 4.4k hp with 8k armor, and one unlucky crit/crush spike and you are dead,and there is no defensive stance saving you since argent defender c only acriavetes below 35% and not when you drop directly from 40% to 0.

I might have made some minor mistakes in the hittsble calcs above but the core is right

[Geojak]

I thing the 31 prot talent should become
Reduce all dmg reveicev by 8% and gain mana, equal to 2% of any heal reveiced.

Basically paladin defensive stance plus mana sustain.

Down with the gimmicky 35% stuff thaz helps nothing when you get crushed for more thanc35% of your health

I don't thing I am asking for too much or an unreasonable op buff

[Redmagejoe]

I'm fairly certain you've made some mistakes on your discussion of the hit table. While it's true you cannot become practically crush immune, there is a theoretical crush immunity via manipulation of the attack table. However, the remaining chance after Miss/Dodge/Parry/Block to receive a normal hit is NOT a 100% crush chance. Crushes are only a 15% base chance per normal hit to occur on a level 60 with 300 Defense skill. If you have a 1% chance of receiving a normal hit after all your avoidance, that is merely a 0.15% chance to be crushed.

[Kairion]

I thing the 31 prot talent should become
Reduce all dmg reveicev by 8% and gain mana, equal to 2% of any heal reveiced.

Basically paladin defensive stance plus mana sustain.

Down with the gimmicky 35% stuff thaz helps nothing when you get crushed for more thanc35% of your health

I don't thing I am asking for too much or an unreasonable op buff

How uncreative has one to be to just look at another class and say "i want what they have" - next we can get rid of consecration and return damage, implement rage and give you shieldslam?

All of the supposed problems protection paladin currently has can be effectively addressed by a simple blockchance increase. Block gives you mana, increased return damage with sancticy and makes you less likely to be crit or crushed. No need for shitty mana regen gimicks.

I'm fairly certain you've made some mistakes on your discussion of the hit table. While it's true you cannot become practically crush immune, there is a theoretical crush immunity via manipulation of the attack table. However, the remaining chance after Miss/Dodge/Parry/Block to receive a normal hit is NOT a 100% crush chance. Crushes are only a 15% base chance per normal hit to occur on a level 60 with 300 Defense skill. If you have a 1% chance of receiving a normal hit after all your avoidance, that is merely a 0.15% chance to be crushed.

This is not true (at least in PvE), white hits fall off the table before crits & crushes do. Assuming you have 80% dodge, 0 Block & 0 Parry, all remaining incoming hits would either be Miss, Crits or Crushings. only after you successfully pushed off the normal hits off the table can you start pushing of crushings

[Geojak]

All you do with increased block chance is make pala unreasonable op on trash and 5 man dungeons while barely addressing the road bossa tanking issue at hand

Tbc gave paladisn 6% reduced dmg from talents. Sry, but I am tired of 'creative' attempts that don't work, when we can just use what has profen to be efficient and blizzard already did in tbc,yoi know the once proffesional company that made the game

A, raid bosses attacks at 2.5 standard speed. Even if you blocked every hit and regged each time about 110 mana. And yi Udo not block every hit as that would be broken on trahs it's just not working out

[Kairion]

All you do with increased block chance is make pala unreasonable op on trash and 5 man dungeons while barely addressing the road bossa tanking issue at hand

Tbc gave paladisn 6% reduced dmg from talents. Sry, but I am tired of 'creative' attempts that don't work, when we can just use what has profen to be efficient and blizzard already did in tbc,yoi know the once proffesional company that made the game

A, raid bosses attacks at 2.5 standard speed. Even if you blocked every hit and regged each time about 110 mana. And yi Udo not block every hit as that would be broken on trahs it's just not working out

Oh absolutely not, since prot already is basically blocking all the time on trash increasing the block chance doesn't give him much more benefit except for maybe destroying his shield quicker if he uses force reactive disk. But it gives you the mana regeneration you all claim to need in a bossfight. It solves the crush/crit issue for paladin tanks and imrpoves the tps gain without cloning the Burning crusade talents.

If you want to play TBC paladin may i suggest you go play TBC? 6% damage reduiction doesn't do anything to elevate paladin as a tank. Bears have worse mitigation than paladin and no flat damage reduction. Despite that they are viable if not even ideal as tanks on turtlewow.

And since we are on the topic of trash tanking - if we make paladin better at raidbosses, should we not bring him down on a level of trashtanking comparable to other tanks to make up for it?

[Geojak]

Beara have lots of armor and health, combined that I means they can survive long enough even when dmg spikes for heals to happens.

Even if paladins have more avoidance, doesn't help yif you can't survive the spike, just like a, rogue with lots of dodge has great avoidance but won't survive.

Paladins had all the mana they needed before the jow interactions wasn't nerfed and this also allowed them to use spells on cd on max ranks for long enough to try compete on single tsrget threat enough to be viable.
Paladin prots lost 200-400 mp5. If that much was needed to be viable (not competitive thought as any bear or warrior with comparable gear was better) , a little bit of extra block won't cut it.

Anyway we have different opinions. This is my last comment, since I was tol to go away and play tbc or whatever

[Kairion]

JoW got nerfed for a reason. Turns out not only paladins can trigger judgements and even if that were true, up to 6 chances to procc 61health and/or 59 mana is kinda bonkers (that totals out to ~200 health and mana PER SWING or about 550 Mana/Health per5) on a non dual wield class. For comparison Mana pots on CD are a 75mp5 on average.

Raiding must be really fun as healers if rogues and warriors sustain themselves with ~300HP/s off a bloody judgement

[Mekunekud]

JoW got nerfed for a reason. Turns out not only paladins can trigger judgements and even if that were true, up to 6 chances to procc 61health and/or 59 mana is kinda bonkers (that totals out to ~200 health and mana PER SWING or about 550 Mana/Health per5) on a non dual wield class. For comparison Mana pots on CD are a 75mp5 on average.

Raiding must be really fun as healers if rogues and warriors sustain themselves with ~300HP/s off a bloody judgement

While an issue, it's not game breaking. The bigger issue is the mana regen but nerfing it so only 1 proc a swing is a bigger nerf to already underperforming classes than a buff to the stronger classes. Prot paladins NEED the regen. It's unviable to nerf it without changing the class talents to support more mana regen.
I personally think the biggest change could be changing it so not only blocking from Shield Specialisation provides mana or some kind of deep prot retaliation for any defensive move that means Prot Paladins aren't 100% reliant on being hit for primary threat generation. Make Reckoning into a talent where a dodge/block/parry strikes the mob instantly for your block value as holy damage and then make 1h weapon spec into "adds 10% of MH weapon damage as Holy damage" so Prot Paladins can cycle seals without completely losing SoR as their threat generation.
It maintains both the blocking characteristic of prot paladins, increases the threat without reliance on a single seal while also allowing different seals to be used in different scenarios. More base block chance would also be better as without redoubt or Holy Shield, prot paladins have an anemic block chance.
It'd also give paladins a reason to invest in late prot rather than going for Improved Ret Aura.

[Kairion]

JoW got nerfed for a reason. Turns out not only paladins can trigger judgements and even if that were true, up to 6 chances to procc 61health and/or 59 mana is kinda bonkers (that totals out to ~200 health and mana PER SWING or about 550 Mana/Health per5) on a non dual wield class. For comparison Mana pots on CD are a 75mp5 on average.

Raiding must be really fun as healers if rogues and warriors sustain themselves with ~300HP/s off a bloody judgement

While an issue, it's not game breaking. The bigger issue is the mana regen but nerfing it so only 1 proc a swing is a bigger nerf to already underperforming classes than a buff to the stronger classes. Prot paladins NEED the regen. It's unviable to nerf it without changing the class talents to support more mana regen.
I personally think the biggest change could be changing it so not only blocking from Shield Specialisation provides mana or some kind of deep prot retaliation for any defensive move that means Prot Paladins aren't 100% reliant on being hit for primary threat generation. Make Reckoning into a talent where a dodge/block/parry strikes the mob instantly for your block value as holy damage and then make 1h weapon spec into "adds 10% of MH weapon damage as Holy damage" so Prot Paladins can cycle seals without completely losing SoR as their threat generation.
It maintains both the blocking characteristic of prot paladins, increases the threat without reliance on a single seal while also allowing different seals to be used in different scenarios. More base block chance would also be better as without redoubt or Holy Shield, prot paladins have an anemic block chance.
It'd also give paladins a reason to invest in late prot rather than going for Improved Ret Aura.

Its by all means gamebreaking - having about 5000 HP/s more in a raid than you are supposed to is about 5 healers worth for 1 debuff slot 300 mana and some craftable gloves is abolutely ridiculous. And you are ignoring the fact that they allowed SoR to proc JoW & JoL as a direct consequence to partially make up for it.

I like the change to one hand specialisation. But the other suggestions are high copium.
With Redoubt & holy shield active you would hit a full weapon swing every time someone tries to hit you. Warrior got a similar ability on a 30min cd which locks out other major abilities and you want that as a TALENT?

[Redmagejoe]

I'm not really sure what is being discussed about a bug or somesuch interaction with Judgement procs, as I've been away from my Tankadin for a while, but I would like to clarify what appears to be a misconception about Seal of Righteousness and Judgement procs.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Seal_o ... ch_changes

SoR is supposed to proc Judgements, and it is not something that Turtle devs enabled on their end. I will say it would be irresponsible given the complaints about Paladin mana to remove this Blizzlike behavior, but I am deducing from what I've read that the issue is that there were procs happening that were not intended? From splash damage procs or something?

[Kairion]

I'm not really sure what is being discussed about a bug or somesuch interaction with Judgement procs, as I've been away from my Tankadin for a while, but I would like to clarify what appears to be a misconception about Seal of Righteousness and Judgement procs.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Seal_o ... ch_changes

SoR is supposed to proc Judgements, and it is not something that Turtle devs enabled on their end. I will say it would be irresponsible given the complaints about Paladin mana to remove this Blizzlike behavior, but I am deducing from what I've read that the issue is that there were procs happening that were not intended? From splash damage procs or something?

On Hit effects such as Blazefury medallion ( https://database.turtle-wow.org/?item=17111 ) would procc it. Given the wider distribution on turtle of items with such an effect, it was possible to get 6 triggers on a single swing.

[Geojak]

@red,the blizzliek behaviour that +fire on hit like from fiery plate gauntlet can trigger jugement of wisdom Was, removed completely. This is what many are upset, because twow offers no compensation for the already, weak mana starved class.

They also removed that SoR would double the +höre hits. Here I don't know what is blizzlike.

They also removed and returned the blizzlike behaviour of SoR doubling proccs.

I believe if they diverge from blizzlike anyway, as they have with these changes. Then it woild be healthy for paladin to also remove the SoR double procc and just make paladin a class not shit, not rely on gimmicky mechanics not intuitive or in any way knowable by the novice paladin than a veteran to tell him SoR actually doubles proccs and not only just does the tooltip extra holy dmg.

So In a way I support this in this, but with a big catch.

You can't just removed what made paladins viable (gimmicky procc mechanics) and not give paladisn any way to compensate. I said this time and time again on forum, I'm multiple thread, but they never read, only yesterday on discord when stuff escalated, ppl brought it up directly to tinyfin and the message got trough.

"bugfixes" that ended up nerfing paladin mana management into oblivion went trough immidietly. But class changes take years.

I dotm want to wait years with a shot class. So give me back my procc until you actually fix the class.

To put stuff into perspective, we are talking about 200-400 mp5 lost when properly geared. Nobody can tell me endgame rets and prots were so broken with mana without mana pots on cd, that they needed nerfs , since the items fir this only got available at 60.

[Redmagejoe]

Based on the feedback I have seen in this thread from other Paladins, and the general consensus that the bottom of the Protection tree is pretty much worthless, I have come to a couple conclusions:

• Paladin cannot raid tank because it does not have the same flat damage reduction as Warrior or the obscene Armor and HP to soak damage as Bears.
• Paladin still has mana problems in 5mans if the kill time for groups is significantly low / relies on enemies hitting them to generate mana which is not sufficient by itself for raid tanking
• Paladin does not have enough forms of active burst threat generation, relying primarily on being attacked outside of Holy Strike, Judgement of Righteousness, Seal of Righteousness, and Consecrate, the latter 2 of which are slow burn rather than burst
• Ardent Defender does not act as an appropriate replacement for Warrior Defensive Stance, nor does it even work very well at all for any purpose outside of soloing and maybe 5mans; does not suit a capstone talent
• Paladins do not bother getting Reckoning, One-Handed Weapon Specialization, or Ardent Defender

My buddy and I spent a lot of time brainstorming for hours, analyzing these shortcomings, thinking about balance implications of any changes made, the existing framework from a vanilla and Turtle standpoint for Paladins, and all the careful considerations to avoid making the spec overpowered, or bleed over into making other specs overpowered who would attempt a 30-21 or 25-26 build, etc. We discussed that a good tree demands sometimes making tough choices for one's purposes, as it defeats the purpose of a talent tree for someone to be able to get everything good. There are 50 talent points total in the Vanilla Protection Paladin tree. There are 50 talent points total in the Turtle Protection Paladin tree. I believe that this number is appropriate.

With all of these things taken into consideration, I believe that the above issues with the spec can be addressed while simultaneously replacing/fixing generally agreed to be "worthless" talents. Numbers are not final and are up for discussion, but this is the tentative idea that will address Prot Paladin's issues and allow it, perhaps, to be capable of raid tanking. For reference to the 50 points, making hard choices, and just to have a visual of what is changing, here is my current Tankadin build: https://talents.turtle-wow.org/paladin/U5-5IVLUJ66-50U

• Replace Ardent Defender: Rebuke, new talent that requires Holy Shield buff be active. Consumes all remaining charges of Holy Shield to instantly do the damage and bonus threat portion of your Holy Shield charges, sacrificing your increased block chance for instant burst threat generation. This spell costs no mana. If this isn't enough damage/threat, you could modify the final damage by your character's Block Value (either at the end of the math or added in to the damage of each remaining charge, idk)
• Replace One-Handed Weapon Specialization: Give a 5 point talent that, while Righteous Fury is active, gives +2% * Talent Level reduction to all incoming damage and heals from other players recover Paladin's mana equal to 1% * Talent Level of the amount healed.
• Change Reckoning: Currently 5 point talent that gives X% * Talent Level chance when receiving a critical strike to gain an extra attack. Change instead to 4% * Talent Level chance when consuming a charge of Redoubt to gain an extra attack. Extra swings have an internal cooldown. (X to be decided)

These changes allow the talents and playstle of Prot Paladin to better synergize, make the capstone talent feel more impactful and gives them a signature ability, and addresses many of the problems with mana and threat generation in a way that minimally impacts the talent tree and, hopefully, balance. Considerations were taken to ensure that there weren't Ret Paladins trying to dip into the tree and get an easy damage reduction or mana regen without marking themselves as "the tank" by having Righteous Fury on. In this way, a Ret could still benefit from these, but is constantly going to be pulling aggro and that hopefully balances out the temptation to get some easy extra sustain. Likewise, tying Reckoning to Redoubt demands that a shield be equipped, and thus will assure that Ret Paladins aren't fishing for Windfury-style swings. Ret has its own problems which can be addressed in ways outside these talents. As stated, numbers are up for discussion and I encourage people to pick apart these proposals. Discuss.

[Geojak]

Good post! I fully agree with your characterization of the issues prot have.

I think the reckoning rework would be extrem broken on meele packs and would make paladins do insane 5 swings per strike with enough mobs and blocks happening. I would rather keep thaz tslent unchanged. Also got the pvp memes it woukd be greatly missed

The other 2 changes look nice in solving all issues, single target threat shield slam like 31 talent is a good idea.

Yesterday the jow fire hit procc interaction was reverted. As stated before, the problem was never per se thaz this was changed, the problem was paladins, rely on it and their is no replacement.

This could for example replace it
1. A suggestion with mana per heal for prots
2. Rework of sanctified command to not give mana for the hole group and istead give more mana just for the paladin, also work on all seals

This way both prot and ret have a replacement mechanic to manage their mana.

[Takalth]

One side effect of Rebuke: The optimal opener for pally tanks will be to cast Holy Shield, wait several seconds (to mostly finish the cooldown), then run in with a full powered rebuke. I can't decide if that will matter much or not.

Overall, though, I like the changes. Excited to see the future for paladins.

[Kortikus]

I mean that will be helpfull for prot palls https://www.wowhead.com/classic/guide/l ... rtabs-head. We can adaptive for turtle.