Pally Buff durations from 5 > 30 min

[Geojak]

Personally I think 5 to 30 min is a bit much.

But 5 to 10 and 15 to 30 would be fair.
Shaman weapon buffs can go to 10 mind too

Why?

Other classes buffs are also that long.
Otherwise make mages amplify magic also 5 instead of 10.
Arcsne intelligence 15, fortitude 15.
It just sucks to reapply dese over and over again and it doesn't help that you need to focus which class to buff what unlike a mage or priest or druid which just buff their one thing on everyone.

This makes it a rly big hszzle every 5 minutes and without addons basically not doable.

10 minutes isteaf of 5 is not asking for biased convenience. It just ask to be treated like every other class whose buffed are atleast thaz long. It has nothing to do with mastering the class to fucking rebuff all the time.

Why do other classes have 1h buffs? Should be lowered because they need to master their class. /s

As Belize pointed out, you don't buff blessing afaptovely at all, you buff the same thing on the same ppl the hole run just like every other class too. Other classes have some situational shorter buffs like dampen magic, shadow resist buff, but even theaw are 10 minutes.

What game are you playing sinrek, where you see powerfull paladin buffs? Paladins still suck as raid tanks, do dogshit dps and holy healing is boring as f. Anyway these buffs have nothing to do with denying the class basic buff lengths every one else already has much more.

[Gantulga]

Blessing are the most powerful single-target buffs outside of long cooldowns like Innervate or Power Infusion. They do not need to last for 30 minutes. 10 minutes would however make things less clunky and more enjoyable.

[Geojak]

In raids pala buffs aren't even used in meele group, since Windfurry, totem is better.

[Redmagejoe]

In raids pala buffs aren't even used in meele group, since Windfurry, totem is better.

That's a separate issue to be discussed later and thus is not relevant to the discussion at hand. Please give your argument for or against based on the merits of why the duration matters.

[Geojak]

Oh that was just my answer to the above claim thaz paladin blessing are the most beneficial single target buffs

[Allknighty]

Hi everyone,

I think I can bring peace to this topic by saying both parties are partially right.

Sinrek is right when he's talking about the original design around those blessings. But I'd like to bring the attention on the words he used "the design was that any group would benefit from those according to the situation at hand".
He's absolutely right and I'd like to emphasize the use of the term "group".

I think, and it's now my opinion, not the original developpers' point of view, it could be interpreted as follow: in a group (5 men or even a 10 men like UBRS), the short duration is not as problematic as it is in a 20 or 40 men raid and it allows for a versatility according to the encountered situation. It's also true for paladin solo gampelay.

On the other hand, during a raid, the role of each person is clear from the start to the end of the session and the argument of versatility makes no sense anymore. Every class knows its role and has its needs. While raiding, a paladin (who are mostly healers) has to regen its mana, buff everyone, regen its mana again int he midst of DPSers who are often prone to impatience...

Moreover, I'd like to make the following argument: Turtle Wow is a custom server anyway. Why not make a slight duration buff on those blessings if (and only if) it doesn't unbalance the class?

My conclusion: buffing the individual blessings to a 10 min duration and the greater ones to a 30 min duration.

[Furinkazan]

Hi everyone,

I think I can bring peace to this topic by saying both parties are partially right.

Sinrek is right when he's talking about the original design around those blessings. But I'd like to bring the attention on the words he used "the design was that any group would benefit from those according to the situation at hand".
He's absolutely right and I'd like to emphasize the use of the term "group".

I think, and it's now my opinion, not the original developpers' point of view, it could be interpreted as follow: in a group (5 men or even a 10 men like UBRS), the short duration is not as problematic as it is in a 20 or 40 men raid and it allows for a versatility according to the encountered situation. It's also true for paladin solo gampelay.

On the other hand, during a raid, the role of each person is clear from the start to the end of the session and the argument of versatility makes no sense anymore. Every class knows its role and has its needs. While raiding, a paladin (who are mostly healers) has to regen its mana, buff everyone, regen its mana again int he midst of DPSers who are often prone to impatience...

Moreover, I'd like to make the following argument: Turtle Wow is a custom server anyway. Why not make a slight duration buff on those blessings if (and only if) it doesn't unbalance the class?

My conclusion: buffing the individual blessings to a 10 min duration and the greater ones to a 30 min duration.

+

[Thyx]

Hi everyone,

I think I can bring peace to this topic by saying both parties are partially right.

Sinrek is right when he's talking about the original design around those blessings. But I'd like to bring the attention on the words he used "the design was that any group would benefit from those according to the situation at hand".
He's absolutely right and I'd like to emphasize the use of the term "group".

I think, and it's now my opinion, not the original developpers' point of view, it could be interpreted as follow: in a group (5 men or even a 10 men like UBRS), the short duration is not as problematic as it is in a 20 or 40 men raid and it allows for a versatility according to the encountered situation. It's also true for paladin solo gampelay.

On the other hand, during a raid, the role of each person is clear from the start to the end of the session and the argument of versatility makes no sense anymore. Every class knows its role and has its needs. While raiding, a paladin (who are mostly healers) has to regen its mana, buff everyone, regen its mana again int he midst of DPSers who are often prone to impatience...

Moreover, I'd like to make the following argument: Turtle Wow is a custom server anyway. Why not make a slight duration buff on those blessings if (and only if) it doesn't unbalance the class?

My conclusion: buffing the individual blessings to a 10 min duration and the greater ones to a 30 min duration.

+

+1
We need buff timer increase from 5m to 10-15m and greater to 30 at the very least. Please bring this QoL feature to us.

[Papum]

Seeing an all these post differing in opinions very througfully thought, we can get an new suggestion for those that oppose to paladin buffs move from 5 min to 30 min like many examples: blessing of kings that is similiar to the druid mark of the wild buff, like intellect from mages good for casters like might good for mellee etc. ... and all of those similiar non paladin buffs all on a 30 min timer, yet here comes an suggestion lets change all of the similiar class buffs all to 5 min so people can experience the skill of buffing buffs every 5 mins, maybe, maybe than a clarity could occure.

[Furinkazan]

Seeing an all these post differing in opinions very througfully thought, we can get an new suggestion for those that oppose to paladin buffs move from 5 min to 30 min like many examples: blessing of kings that is similiar to the druid mark of the wild buff, like intellect from mages good for casters like might good for mellee etc. ... and all of those similiar non paladin buffs all on a 30 min timer, yet here comes an suggestion lets change all of the similiar class buffs all to 5 min so people can experience the skill of buffing buffs every 5 mins, maybe, maybe than a clarity could occure.

Big brain move right there 4head

[Doonis]

In raids pala buffs aren't even used in meele group, since Windfurry, totem is better.

This isn't even true. Might + Kings is roughly equivalent to SoE + Windfury. In Macrochelys, we don't even use Windfury, because it is less consistent than pally buffs.

If we are talking about improving paladin buff durations, why isn't anyone taking into account that Shaman buffs last less than 2 minutes and are a stationary aura? If any class needs improvements to buffs, it would be Shaman.

[Velite]

In raids pala buffs aren't even used in meele group, since Windfurry, totem is better.

This isn't even true. Might + Kings is roughly equivalent to SoE + Windfury. In Macrochelys, we don't even use Windfury, because it is less consistent than pally buffs.

If we are talking about improving paladin buff durations, why isn't anyone taking into account that Shaman buffs last less than 2 minutes and are a stationary aura? If any class needs improvements to buffs, it would be Shaman.

On the first point. Warrior sims prove that SoE + Windfury is superior to Might + Kings. You probably don't use shaman buffs because you prioritize kings stamina, in which case people are dying/healers slack since Horde manage fine in Classic without the kings hp, but strictly speaking total DPS, shamans are superior.

On the second point, shaman totems last for less, but again, since they are stronger than paladin buffs it evens out. The only comparison where it fails is salvation because Tranquil air totem was poorly thought out by Blizzard.

Paladin buffs in a macro sense are stronger than shaman totems because you only need 1 paladin to give a buff to 40 people, when 1 shaman can at most buff 5 people. But if you have enough shamans, then they eclipse the paladins.

[Imonobor]

Absolutely +1 for the suggestion to buff normal blessings to 10min and greater to 30min. It's just pure quality of life, nothing overpowered.

[Sinrek]

[Velite]

.

Yes paladin was supposed to have a bunch of bloodlusts, and it doesn't right now. So we're saying, either move it in that direction, or make what we have more convenient. This middle ground we have now isn't good.

[Sinrek]

.

Yes paladin was supposed to have a bunch of bloodlusts, and it doesn't right now. So we're saying, either move it in that direction, or make what we have more convenient. This middle ground we have now isn't good.

I've been suggesting improving Blessing of Might to also grant some strength, Blessing of Wisdom - intellect, Blessing of Light + small heal over time bonus and several other bonuses to existing blessings.

Small bonuses, but they would improve those short-term buffs, alas, there should be somewhat resemblance to balance in the game and if you take a look at those shaman buffs provided by totems then it'd be overpowered both in duration and useful uptime since totems are stationary and blessings are always up on the player for the whole duration.
So 5 minutes is just enough for paladins to be a significant asset for the group.

Paladins and shamans are both support classes, yet paladins are more defensive and shamans are sort of offensive support. Buffing something on one of them will automatically make us change something for the counterpart. Testing it out would be a nightmare nobody on the TW team want to experience.

In theory, it is all nice and easy but when it comes to class interactions you face some serious issues if not problems.

[Velite]

.

Yes paladin was supposed to have a bunch of bloodlusts, and it doesn't right now. So we're saying, either move it in that direction, or make what we have more convenient. This middle ground we have now isn't good.

I've been suggesting improving Blessing of Might to also grant some strength, Blessing of Wisdom - intellect, Blessing of Light + small heal over time bonus and several other bonuses to existing blessings.

Small bonuses, but they would improve those short-term buffs, alas, there should be somewhat resemblance to balance in the game and if you take a look at those shaman buffs provided by totems then it'd be overpowered both in duration and useful uptime since totems are stationary and blessings are always up on the player for the whole duration.
So 5 minutes is just enough for paladins to be a significant asset for the group.

Paladins and shamans are both support classes, yet paladins are more defensive and shamans are sort of offensive support. Buffing something on one of them will automatically make us change something for the counterpart. Testing it out would be a nightmare nobody on the TW team want to experience.

In theory, it is all nice and easy but when it comes to class interactions you face some serious issues if not problems.

That's assuming you need to make them counterparts.

I thought the whole point of the class changes, and overall class design, was to make the classes distinct. We've got more license to do that since playing a shaman doesn't lock you out of an alliance raiding group here.

It's very weird that we have 7 classes who can all be taken in different directions and these two who remain stagnant.

Unlike in vanilla and classic, if I want to alt a shaman, or an orc warrior or gnome hunter in a raid that is mostly comprised of opposite faction I can do that. We don't need to have shamans and paladins be in parity all the time, it makes them redundant.

[Sinrek]

I thought the whole point of the class changes, and overall class design, was to make the classes distinct.

And they are. There's not much that should be changed with existing spells on those two. Well … perhaps some nerfs on the new stuff since it's clearly OP right now. Everything else is ok.

[Geojak]

If you nerf new stuff on paladin and shaman, how about nerfing old stuff on warriors?

Diamond flask is still allowed, heroic strike queing affecting offhand miss is still allowed.

Its a bit weird that we are already considering nerfing hybrids when warriors were never touched

[Venytas]

Everything less than 30 minutes for normal buffs and 60 minutes for greater ones is just wrong.
There is NO gain for them to be less in duration.
There is NO difference in balance if they were 30 or 60 minutes long.

The argument of "but dev number 42 said he wanted it like that cuz XYZ" is invalid because it got changed to the better really quick, so he might have been wrong to beginn with. Furthermore, the gameplay got better with newer expansions, like tbc or wotlk, and the whole community except some neckbeards will agree on that.

Some ppl need to understand that not everything vanilla did was good, some things even were terrible.

[Velite]

I thought the whole point of the class changes, and overall class design, was to make the classes distinct.

And they are. There's not much that should be changed with existing spells on those two. Well … perhaps some nerfs on the new stuff since it's clearly OP right now. Everything else is ok.

They're not if 2 classes have things which conflict and must have parity lol.

[Sinrek]

They're not if 2 classes have things which conflict and must have parity lol.

Hold on a second. So you're saying we should separate the horde from the alliance as it was supposed to be? lol.

[Velite]

They're not if 2 classes have things which conflict and must have parity lol.

Hold on a second. So you're saying we should separate the horde from the alliance as it was supposed to be? lol.

By having the 2 classes on separate factions, it goes against the core class design philosophy that classes should be unique. It creates this desire that we have to design them to be equal. That was the motivation for unlocking them for both factions, Blizzard could move forward in designing them separately (this is stated in a TBC documentary with Jeff Kaplan). So no, we should not remove cross faction as we've enabled a vital step in letting these two classes follow the intended design of being unique, because picking either of them doesn't lock you out of a specific raid group on Turtle Wow. Now we should go further and take advantage of this to improve both of the classes, since apart from PvP there's no reason that a Shaman's design should affect a Paladin's design, and vice versa, just as the design of a Mage does not affect the design of a Hunter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41w3zsE77cg

[Sinrek]

apart from PvP there's no reason that a Shaman's design should affect a Paladin's design, and vice versa
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41w3zsE77cg

Yes. PvP is active and that's why we can't.

[Nearl]

I really think that increasing it could make everyone happy, even tho its intended game mechanic it doesn't mean its good Sinrek, I really believe you should let things be just better, like my fishing post, its just QoL, it doesn't make the game easier or harder, it just makes it less of a pain.. and I do hope you're not masochist lol

Anyway, +1 on that.

[Sinrek]

I really think that increasing it could make everyone happy, even tho its intended game mechanic it doesn't mean its good Sinrek, I really believe you should let things be just better, like my fishing post, its just QoL, it doesn't make the game easier or harder, it just makes it less of a pain.. and I do hope you're not masochist lol

Anyway, +1 on that.

I really think that changing something in game that isn't broken will make everyone happy, regardless of intention, mechanics are there and have been working fine. These QoL changes brought us to what we have in retail, and it didn't make the game better, it made the game stale and bland… and I do hope you're not a junk food eater lol

Anyway, -2 on that.

[Venytas]

They're not if 2 classes have things which conflict and must have parity lol.

Hold on a second. So you're saying we should separate the horde from the alliance as it was supposed to be? lol.

By having the 2 classes on separate factions, it goes against the core class design philosophy that classes should be unique. It creates this desire that we have to design them to be equal. That was the motivation for unlocking them for both factions, Blizzard could move forward in designing them separately (this is stated in a TBC documentary with Jeff Kaplan). So no, we should not remove cross faction as we've enabled a vital step in letting these two classes follow the intended design of being unique, because picking either of them doesn't lock you out of a specific raid group on Turtle Wow. Now we should go further and take advantage of this to improve both of the classes, since apart from PvP there's no reason that a Shaman's design should affect a Paladin's design, and vice versa, just as the design of a Mage does not affect the design of a Hunter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41w3zsE77cg

agree on that

[Nearl]

I really think that increasing it could make everyone happy, even tho its intended game mechanic it doesn't mean its good Sinrek, I really believe you should let things be just better, like my fishing post, its just QoL, it doesn't make the game easier or harder, it just makes it less of a pain.. and I do hope you're not masochist lol

Anyway, +1 on that.

I really think that changing something in game that isn't broken will make everyone happy, regardless of intention, mechanics are there and have been working fine. These QoL changes brought us to what we have in retail, and it didn't make the game better, it made the game stale and bland… and I do hope you're not a junk food eater lol

Anyway, -2 on that.

I doubt that making the buff go to 30min and making fishing 10sec would make the game more stale and bland, at this point you're just enjoying the pain of such mechanics that aren't good at all and needs to be improved. I never saw in my life a paladin change his benediction suddenly because he needs mana or he needs more AP in a middle of a dungeon or a raid or just a simple fight.
Those mechanics definitly needs improvement and just buffing the duration won't hurt anyone. Get over it.

[Mrrosh]

I would love having the buff duration increased, even something less, like 10 minutes, would still be amazing.

[Kwayver]

Paladin blessings lasting 5 minutes results in more downtime between fights due to rebuffing and drinking after.
Most people would prefer less downtime during a dungeon. This change isn't just to benefit paladins, it benefits any group running with a paladin.

Additionally, it's good etiquette to give people a bit when they buff you. I feel almost guilty when a priest or mage or druid gives me a 30 minute buff and all I can do in return is a 5 minute buff that will likely have written off by the time they take a flight path anywhere.

At the very least the regular blessings of Kings, might, wisdom, salvation, and light should last 15 minutes and greater versions last 30 minutes.

[Nearl]

Paladin blessings lasting 5 minutes results in more downtime between fights due to rebuffing and drinking after.
Most people would prefer less downtime during a dungeon. This change isn't just to benefit paladins, it benefits any group running with a paladin.

Additionally, it's good etiquette to give people a bit when they buff you. I feel almost guilty when a priest or mage or druid gives me a 30 minute buff and all I can do in return is a 5 minute buff that will likely have written off by the time they take a flight path anywhere.

At the very least the regular blessings of Kings, might, wisdom, salvation, and light should last 15 minutes and greater versions last 30 minutes.

Exactly, finally someone that gets it, unlike someone here that still believes having 5 min buff duration is a good thing :p
I also felt guilty as a paladin when for example a druid gives me a 30min buff and all i can do its to give him a 5m one.. that sucks.

[Velite]

Frankly I don't even think blessings are that powerful. Arcane Intellect/Power Word: Fortitude/Mark of the Wild are just as strong as any given paladin blessing, just in a different area.

[Venytas]

I really think that increasing it could make everyone happy, even tho its intended game mechanic it doesn't mean its good Sinrek, I really believe you should let things be just better, like my fishing post, its just QoL, it doesn't make the game easier or harder, it just makes it less of a pain.. and I do hope you're not masochist lol

Anyway, +1 on that.

I really think that changing something in game that isn't broken will make everyone happy, regardless of intention, mechanics are there and have been working fine. These QoL changes brought us to what we have in retail, and it didn't make the game better, it made the game stale and bland… and I do hope you're not a junk food eater lol

Anyway, -2 on that.

At this point you are literally lying, saying those(!) changes led to WoW being bad is just delusional.
After blizzard made those changes wow peaked and was in its prime for the vast majority of the playerbase

[Sinrek]

At this point you are literally lying, saying those(!) changes led to WoW being bad is just delusional.
After blizzard made those changes wow peaked and was in its prime for the vast majority of the playerbase

Really? Why are you here then? Waiting for that Classic WotLK prime age, eh? KEKW

[Nearl]

At this point you are literally lying, saying those(!) changes led to WoW being bad is just delusional.
After blizzard made those changes wow peaked and was in its prime for the vast majority of the playerbase

Really? Why are you here then? Waiting for that Classic WotLK prime age, eh? KEKW

What a toxic behavior, and you're here giving your vote on a topic that will maybe change the future of the server, honestly all you deserve right now is to be ignored. Its not because we want those buffs to be 30min instead of 5 that we're wotlk classic enjoyers. In fact I hate Blizzard and many of us here do, never forget that.

About the topic now: Tbf maybe 30min its too much, 15min like food buffs would be quite cool tho, at least we coud make something out of it. Talents could make the buff last longer.