Pally Buff durations from 5 > 30 min

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Velite
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Re: Pally Buff durations from 5 > 30 min

Post by Velite » Fri Aug 26, 2022 3:54 am

Blizz putting greater blessings is a perfect example of "Designing the game around raids" since they're all only available in the late 50's or some are even 60 only. It's great that those ones are 15, and at most 9 clicks every 15 mins isn't so bad, but singles at 5 minutes... You can get them to 6.5 if you have the ZG 5 set... which requires grinding edge of madness AND getting all 4 items + ZG exalted...

And I'll repeat again: Blessing of Salvation was 15 minutes when talented and a single blessing before patch 1.9. Leveling as prot actually got NERFED from the 1.1 version of the game. That 15 minute salvation must have been a massive convenience when leveling into the 30+ range as a Prot paladin.

Hell make it even cost silver to cast them at longer duration! That'll be balanced too.

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Akalix
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Re: Pally Buff durations from 5 > 30 min

Post by Akalix » Fri Aug 26, 2022 6:23 am

Reminder to all parties involved to keep the conversation civil.

I think that while this would be a decent QoL change, 30 minutes would be much longer than I think fits. One example for needing to adapt the buffs would be hunters, as Might/Kings/Wisdom all can be viable depending on the pull.

However, I overall think the changes Paladins need are elsewhere, and that buffs can be left in the vanilla style.
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Velite
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Re: Pally Buff durations from 5 > 30 min

Post by Velite » Fri Aug 26, 2022 6:44 am

Akalix wrote:
Fri Aug 26, 2022 6:23 am
Reminder to all parties involved to keep the conversation civil.

I think that while this would be a decent QoL change, 30 minutes would be much longer than I think fits. One example for needing to adapt the buffs would be hunters, as Might/Kings/Wisdom all can be viable depending on the pull.

However, I overall think the changes Paladins need are elsewhere, and that buffs can be left in the vanilla style.
Except this isn't tbc and Might is only melee attack power. Might is always better than Kings since the pet's stats don't scale, so the flat ap is better on the pet, so it could be 15 minutes since you don't make a decision for pets. So just kings or wisdom really for the hunter, which is going to depend on their gear - Or salvation, which is what I usually do. But the thing is that all of these are decided when I start the instance, not on a pull basis. The only things that are decided on a pull basis are Sacrifice, Freedom, and Protection, which are not the subject of this debate. dead_turtle_head

Source: I have been playing on a paladin for going on 15 years.
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Velite
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Re: Pally Buff durations from 5 > 30 min

Post by Velite » Fri Aug 26, 2022 6:48 am

Bottom line of this thread, is that we want "gear/comp decided blessings" to last longer because they 100% of the time last the full duration; Paladins are NOT swapping blessings before they expire, or else we would be fine because then the duration would be "long enough". We ARE doing that for Sacrifice, Protection, and Freedom, but those are short enough that we'll reapply the 5 minute, which itself will last the full 5 minutes.

Blessings which are dictated by composition or gear of the players:
Salvation
Sanctuary
Wisdom
Might
Kings
Light

Blessings which are dictated on a "on pull" basis:
Sacrifice
Protection
Freedom

If the gameplay was so significant that paladins would be swapping the "gear decided" blessings between pulls, we'd literally be EQ Bards and just swapping buffs nonstop, without any healing, damage dealing or tanking, just basically a walking totem lol. That only happens to shamans who totem twist, and they do it on a much more frequent basis than pulling.

Side note, if you really wanted to make enhancement shamans good for being enhancement, then you should just incorporate totem twisting passively for them only.

You need to put aside any class biases, and look at any given spell and try to understand "why does this spell have this much of a duration". If you look at a spell which you intend to not always use for it's full duration, or one that is insanely powerful and has a cooldown, it's ripe for having a short duration. Then, spells which are not going to be replaced before the duration is over, should have a longer duration. Yes, that really means (In vanilla, unless you guys somehow decide to add Commanding Shout) Battle shout should definitely have a longer duration (although atm it is basically a 1 cast every 2 minutes like a single totem).

What I'm trying to say in short words: If you are only ever going to cast blessing of might on a player for the entire dungeon (which happens alot while leveling tbh), the only difference between 1, 5, and 15 minutes is how often you want to make the player click. There is no ulterior game design decision here, it's just a matter of convenience. And when it comes to convenience, this is less impactful than Turtle making Zanzas, Blasted lands consumes, and Potions stack more than in vanilla.

THERE. IS. NO. POWER. CREEP.
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Geojak
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Re: Pally Buff durations from 5 > 30 min

Post by Geojak » Fri Aug 26, 2022 7:57 am

What velite said rly.
Ppl that thing otherwise aren't playing paladin or understanding the dynamics of blessings.

There is no on pull decision with blessings. It's fantasy.
You choose per player what they get at dungeon start, and then you Have to remember that veery 5 minutes, to reapply the same thing over and over.

30 minutes is excessive. 10 minutes it not.

IF you think paladin needs are otherwise, you also likely not raiding paladin or doing dungeons.

I need 10 minutes buffs much more than a ret biff
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B3tabob
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Re: Pally Buff durations from 5 > 30 min

Post by B3tabob » Fri Aug 26, 2022 8:40 am

Geojak wrote:
Fri Aug 26, 2022 7:57 am
What velite said rly.
Ppl that thing otherwise aren't playing paladin or understanding the dynamics of blessings.

There is no on pull decision with blessings. It's fantasy.
You choose per player what they get at dungeon start, and then you Have to remember that veery 5 minutes, to reapply the same thing over and over.

30 minutes is excessive. 10 minutes it not.

IF you think paladin needs are otherwise, you also likely not raiding paladin or doing dungeons.

I need 10 minutes buffs much more than a ret biff
This is not a personal attack, but if you want people to take your seriously, you might want to spend a minute to proof-read your comment.
Geojak wrote:
Fri Aug 26, 2022 7:57 am
You choose per player what they get at dungeon start, and then you Have to remember that veery 5 minutes, to reapply the same thing over and over.
Also, is this not a skill check? I'd argue that paladins that remember to buff their allies (and pets) with correct blessings shows knowledge of other people classes and proves your own abilities to play your class. Paladin blessings are the strongest buffs in the game for a reason.
Geojak wrote:
Fri Aug 26, 2022 7:57 am
30 minutes is excessive. 10 minutes it not.
My vote would be to have 5 minute blessings while leveling with either a 10 minute duration rank of the blessing available at level 60 or a talented version that does not take away talent points in regular builds.

Geojak
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Re: Pally Buff durations from 5 > 30 min

Post by Geojak » Fri Aug 26, 2022 9:01 am

"Paladin blessings are the strongest buffs in the game for a reason."

Where does this, even come from?

Fortutude is way, more useful than anything Palas offer.

Wf is better then bom and bok combined..

We don't even use half our buffs in raids, because of shamans, how are we the strongest buffs.

Or are you mixing in blessing of freedom and blessing of protection? Because they aren't part of this discussion. They are fundemantely different with a few second runtime and noone is asking to change that.
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Allknighty
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Re: Pally Buff durations from 5 > 30 min

Post by Allknighty » Fri Aug 26, 2022 1:36 pm

Hi.

I have an argument that could make everybody agree: time.

We should all calculate the time it takes during one raid for every pala to buff everybody every five minutes (supposedly), the mana consumption it takes, the time it takes to get that mana back, the time it takes for mages to create the water, the time it takes for them to get their mana back, etc., etc.
Seconds + seconds = minutes + minutes = hours, you get what I mean I think.

Longer benedictions = shorter raids or more fluid raids if you prefer = more time to enjoy the game by starting another raid that same night, going to dungeons, farming, questing, etc.

This is called convenience. Buffing palas QoL = buffing the whole raid QoL. I don't see the problem for having slightly longer benedictions (10 mins and 45 to 60 for superior ones as it is the case for arcane intellect, fortitude and mark of the wild).

The benedictions were designed to give the equivalent of long buffs in terms of stats such as those I just mentionned, why not giving them longer durations? They are OP? I don't think so... 10 minutes doesn't seem like an "overpowering" of paladins in my opinion.

Hope this argument can lower the heat of this topic.

Bless you all, pun intended of course. satisfied_turtle_head
Nadys, hardcore High Elf Paladin (currently around lvl 22)

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Velite
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Re: Pally Buff durations from 5 > 30 min

Post by Velite » Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:54 pm

B3tabob wrote:
Fri Aug 26, 2022 8:40 am
Geojak wrote:
Fri Aug 26, 2022 7:57 am
30 minutes is excessive. 10 minutes it not.
My vote would be to have 5 minute blessings while leveling with either a 10 minute duration rank of the blessing available at level 60 or a talented version that does not take away talent points in regular builds.
Simplest way to do this: Change improved blessing of might (which isn't used on this server) into improved blessings which increases duration of the 6 "gear/comp dependent" blessings by +1/2/3/4/5 minutes.

Thorns is 10 minutes, too, btw. Arguably as strong as sanctuary.
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Sinrek
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Re: Pally Buff durations from 5 > 30 min

Post by Sinrek » Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:48 am

Velite wrote:
Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:54 pm
B3tabob wrote:
Fri Aug 26, 2022 8:40 am
Geojak wrote:
Fri Aug 26, 2022 7:57 am
30 minutes is excessive. 10 minutes it not.
My vote would be to have 5 minute blessings while leveling with either a 10 minute duration rank of the blessing available at level 60 or a talented version that does not take away talent points in regular builds.
Simplest way to do this: Change improved blessing of might (which isn't used on this server) into improved blessings which increases duration of the 6 "gear/comp dependent" blessings by +1/2/3/4/5 minutes.

Thorns is 10 minutes, too, btw. Arguably as strong as sanctuary.
Formulas and metrics WHEN? angry_turtle_hea
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Talenne
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Re: Pally Buff durations from 5 > 30 min

Post by Talenne » Sat Aug 27, 2022 10:02 pm

Can we at least have more incentive to want to play more like a melee class, maybe through talents or skills? If blessings are playing as intended, then what about actually making Paladin a melee support where the "melee" aspect isn't punishing or inefficient to try to do?

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Venytas
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Re: Pally Buff durations from 5 > 30 min

Post by Venytas » Sun Aug 28, 2022 12:11 am

I am still for 30 minute durations of similar buffs.
Still havent seen a valid argument on why it shouldnt be this way except "slippery slope", "excesive" or stuff like that. (dont want to be disrespectfull)

If you dont want to increase similar buffs durations to be on par with each other, how about nerfing the durations of buffs like furtitude or arcane intellect to 5 or 10 minutes? I wonder what the players of those classes would think of this.

Changing durations of those spells to 1, 2, 5, 10, 15, 30 or 120 minutes wont change anything, it is just convinience.

It seems like some people in here are so scared of retail that they always twitch whenever they read or hear QoL or convinience, we dont want to make retail 2.0.

One last thing, retails downfall wasnt the change towards 30 minutes buffs, it was greed and a well known company and I dont see this well known company anywhere in here.

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Thol
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Re: Pally Buff durations from 5 > 30 min

Post by Thol » Sun Aug 28, 2022 11:31 am

Venytas wrote:
Sun Aug 28, 2022 12:11 am
I am still for 30 minute durations of similar buffs.
Still havent seen a valid argument on why it shouldnt be this way except "slippery slope", "excesive" or stuff like that. (dont want to be disrespectfull)

If you dont want to increase similar buffs durations to be on par with each other, how about nerfing the durations of buffs like furtitude or arcane intellect to 5 or 10 minutes? I wonder what the players of those classes would think of this.

Changing durations of those spells to 1, 2, 5, 10, 15, 30 or 120 minutes wont change anything, it is just convinience.

It seems like some people in here are so scared of retail that they always twitch whenever they read or hear QoL or convinience, we dont want to make retail 2.0.

One last thing, retails downfall wasnt the change towards 30 minutes buffs, it was greed and a well known company and I dont see this well known company anywhere in here.
Well, I'm in favor of doubling the duration of blessings but I agree with the slippery slope argument, old timers like me experienced it once already. And this wasn't all evil Blizzard doing, most convenience changes were requested on forums like this one back then. Players created retail as much as Blizzard did. Blizzard devs aren't here but retail players are, and you can read on this forum suggestions like summoning stones, level 60 boosts,...If you implement every players suggestions you'll get another shade of retail. Also I agree this doesn't mean every suggestions should be ignored, like this one. But one of the devs called us Cata babies for being in favor of it, so I don't see it being implemented any time soon. sad_turtle_head

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Re: Pally Buff durations from 5 > 30 min

Post by Felbrood » Sun Aug 28, 2022 12:34 pm

I think blessings durations can be buffed, but not directly. Via talents would be good, for example each talent point in improved blessing of might increase, additionaly to AP, duration by 1min for BoM and GBoM. It wouldn't ruin "Vanilla spirit" and give some duration.

Geojak
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Re: Pally Buff durations from 5 > 30 min

Post by Geojak » Sun Aug 28, 2022 3:04 pm

But we don't use bom in raids at all
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Papum
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Re: Pally Buff durations from 5 > 30 min

Post by Papum » Thu Sep 01, 2022 2:06 pm

Venytas wrote:
Sun Aug 28, 2022 12:11 am
I am still for 30 minute durations of similar buffs.
Still havent seen a valid argument on why it shouldnt be this way except "slippery slope", "excesive" or stuff like that. (dont want to be disrespectfull)

If you dont want to increase similar buffs durations to be on par with each other, how about nerfing the durations of buffs like furtitude or arcane intellect to 5 or 10 minutes? I wonder what the players of those classes would think of this.

Changing durations of those spells to 1, 2, 5, 10, 15, 30 or 120 minutes wont change anything, it is just convinience.

It seems like some people in here are so scared of retail that they always twitch whenever they read or hear QoL or convinience, we dont want to make retail 2.0.

One last thing, retails downfall wasnt the change towards 30 minutes buffs, it was greed and a well known company and I dont see this well known company anywhere in here.
"Changing durations of those spells to 1, 2, 5, 10, 15, 30 or 120 minutes wont change anything, it is just convinience." I agree with you, just adding an extra to it: Because you have to spend mana to rebuff imagine in an fast pace environment that you couldn't not replenish back the lost mana (because the encounter was started by an other player that did not think of the consequences of starting an encounter with low mana people could do, alway's assume that the user is the 'dumbest' person on the planet that is programing 101) because of the rebuffs made than this will be less mana you'l have for the next encounter it wouldn't be fun that that could be the difference in winning the encounter. Extending the time will mitagate this, downtime and as above you mentioned convinience. What happens when an design is not made to make the experience of an player an good and fun experience? The ip/game ussualy ends up failing and that is as simple 1+1=2.
Last edited by Papum on Thu Sep 01, 2022 2:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Papum
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Re: Pally Buff durations from 5 > 30 min

Post by Papum » Thu Sep 01, 2022 2:15 pm

Felbrood wrote:
Sun Aug 28, 2022 12:34 pm
I think blessings durations can be buffed, but not directly. Via talents would be good, for example each talent point in improved blessing of might increase, additionaly to AP, duration by 1min for BoM and GBoM. It wouldn't ruin "Vanilla spirit" and give some duration.
Using talent points to increase the time or the increased time inbuild into an other alterational talent for an longterm designated buff (shortterm buff = consumed after an short timed situational boost) is just bad design in my opinion.

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Papum
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Re: Pally Buff durations from 5 > 30 min

Post by Papum » Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:07 pm

Sinrek wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:49 pm
You speak against what i propose yet what youh posted to prove against my point just proves my point... . As they say it was originally designed to be situational high impact buffs and nothe the low/medium ones currently being used, and if listen well not even he is content how it ended up being that said a low 5 min buff... . So an 30 min should be ideial because its not and high impact short duration situational buff (in exception of blessing of protection, sacrififice and freedom) but more and exactually similiar to the druid mark of teh wild buff thats on an 30 min buff because its an auxialiar buff now.

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Sinrek
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Re: Pally Buff durations from 5 > 30 min

Post by Sinrek » Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:36 am

Papum wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:07 pm
Sinrek wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:49 pm
You speak against what i propose yet what youh posted to prove against my point just proves my point... . As they say it was originally designed to be situational high impact buffs and nothe the low/medium ones currently being used, and if listen well not even he is content how it ended up being that said a low 5 min buff... . So an 30 min should be ideial because its not and high impact short duration situational buff (in exception of blessing of protection, sacrififice and freedom) but more and exactually similiar to the druid mark of teh wild buff thats on an 30 min buff because its an auxialiar buff now.
That's why we are still stuck with this debate. The team studied this and since there's an attempt try to preserve the OG system of spells and improve the original class ideas Blizz abandoned in their rush and metaslaving, TW team should come up with something more utility based for these Blessings and not simply succumb to the already known Wrath-like style.

If you take some time and listen to Kevin Jordan's further thoughts on the classes you'll understand his reasoning and TW idea for paladins in particular.

I'd like to see someone from the management actually dropping a line or two in that regard but as we all know they are kinda buried with bug-fixing. Priorities…
satisfied_turtle Slowly turtling my way up.

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Shamma
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Re: Pally Buff durations from 5 > 30 min

Post by Shamma » Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:55 pm

Nothing to add really. Just to commend u all on getting to 99 posts on 5 pages of good and meaningful discussion and I wanted to ninja post #100.

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