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Re: Paladins got a rework, Warriors deserve one too
Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 9:21 pm
by Geojak
+1 on nerfing lionheart by 1% crit
Re: Paladins got a rework, Warriors deserve one too
Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 9:48 pm
by Xudo
Compared to paladin with 2 bubbles and 1 full heal, Warrior actually lacks save buttons. It is only Shieldwall and Last Stand.
Shieldwall is weaker version of bubble. Last stand is weaker version of Lay of Hands.
If you have "pocket heal" and go 2vs2, then enemy party just CC you and kill your heal. What can you do to protect healer? Slow them down with hamstring (or piercing howl, if you get this talent) and disarm. If healer is attacked by pet, you can taunt him (or use mocking blow). And your heal should do some legwork to run away from attack. During this he is not healing you obviously.
Feels like Warrior is supposed to be pure damage dealer in PvP. Something that should be CCed just after fight starts.
Re: Paladins got a rework, Warriors deserve one too
Lionheart 1 hit 1 crit 1% attack speed
Titanics 1 hit 1 crit 1% attack speed
I am a warrior main by heart, always been... But these 2 items are just insanely overpowered, you can have them sub 60 and never worry about replacing (titanics is exception bcs there is a single item in the very last raid thats better - carnage).
Anyways my point is that i could not make myself roll a warrior here as the gearing route is so boring with these 2 items, already did it so many times.
R10 set same shit, you can do naxx with having 2pcs r10, lionheart, titanics and some other pre raid stuff and beat everyone else on the meters but more geared warriors. The class is so much fun to play but the gearing, at least the early stages are so dumb.
On the topic: stop comparing warrior to paladin, makes no sense at all. Its like comparing bread to butter... You just dont, you put them together lol
Re: Paladins got a rework, Warriors deserve one too
Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 10:41 pm
by Ire
I think spell reflect and removal of the shared cd of intervene with intercept would make the class perfect.
Was happy to see they added intervene, but I think spell reflect should be there too, and I don't think intervene should share a CD with intercept, that just makes it feel bad to use.
Re: Paladins got a rework, Warriors deserve one too
Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2022 12:01 am
by Bloodline1x9
Except for the Avatar that I suggested for prot warriors in the suggestions section, I understand that it won't help pvp warriors in general, because prot spec is dead anyway.
And I know what they are very bursting in pvp in relation to control - this is Second Wind.
And not as a talent, but as a general passive for all specs. Because if give it to one spec only,
then that one will 100% become as a main pvp spec. It is better to give them all at once.
Warriors won't have spell reflect in vanilla but. But standing in nova they will still shoot and regenerate.
Re: Paladins got a rework, Warriors deserve one too
Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2022 2:27 pm
by Justgens
I agree on protection rework, the tree is just terrible and the only talent that matters is Defiance. Warrior doesn't really need help tanking but it would be nice if there was actually something worth taking in prot past 16 points
Re: Paladins got a rework, Warriors deserve one too
Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 10:23 am
by Noce
there are [mbe] room for some things to change, as in later exp [tbc/wotlk]. some talent points could be reduced to make space for new talents. mix and use some fancy things like:
Warbringer/Juggernaut - usable while in combat but the cooldown on Charge is increased
Warbringer
Your Charge, Intercept and Intervene abilities are now usable while in combat and in any stance. In addition, your Intervene ability will remove all movement impairing effects.
Juggernaut
Your Charge ability is now usable while in combat, but the cooldown on Charge is increased by 5 sec. Following a Charge, your next Slam or Mortal Strike has an additional 25% chance to critically hit if used within 10 sec.
mbe make Rend more usable somehow tho TfB is op.
Taste for Blood
Whenever your Rend ability causes damage, you have a 33% chance of allowing the use of your Overpower ability for 9 sec. 1 charge. This effect will not occur more than once every 6 sec.
Second Wind
Whenever you are struck by a Stun or Immobilize effect you will generate 10 rage and 5% of your total health over 10 sec.
prob w/o healt part
Shield Mastery/Critical Block/Spell Reflection - Raise your shield, DEflecting the next spell cast on you; or Reduces the chance you'll be hit by spells
here im not sure in what direction to go. some mix of those. mbe DEflecting is ok.
Shield Mastery
Increases your block value by 15% and reduces the cooldown of your Shield Block ability by 10 sec.
Critical Block
Your successful blocks have a 20% chance to block double the normal amount and increases your chance to critically hit with your Shield Slam ability by an additional 5%.
Spell Reflection
Raise your shield, reflecting the next spell cast on you. Lasts 5 sec.
Spell Reflection
Magical damage taken reduced by 20%. Duration: 5 seconds
Improved Spell Reflection Rank 1
Reduces the chance you'll be hit by spells by 2% and when the ability is used it will reflect the first spell cast against the 2 closest party members within 20 yards.
Armored to the Teeth
Increases your attack power by 1 for every 108 armor value you have.
Bloodsurge
Your Heroic Strike, Bloodthirst, and Whirlwind hits have a 7% chance of making your next Slam instant for 5 sec.
slam need some love
Focused Rage
Reduces the rage cost of your offensive abilities by 1.
Improved Revenge - Increases the critical strike chance or Revenge or Increases dmg of Revenge
make it to be similar to Overpower, that stun is op imo
Improved Thunder Clap move to prot talent?
imo, those are the things that might be added and are not too op, everything else might be way op to add
Re: Paladins got a rework, Warriors deserve one too
there are [mbe] room for some things to change, as in later exp [tbc/wotlk]. some talent points could be reduced to make space for new talents. mix and use some fancy things like:
Warbringer/Juggernaut - usable while in combat but the cooldown on Charge is increased
Warbringer
Your Charge, Intercept and Intervene abilities are now usable while in combat and in any stance. In addition, your Intervene ability will remove all movement impairing effects.
Juggernaut
Your Charge ability is now usable while in combat, but the cooldown on Charge is increased by 5 sec. Following a Charge, your next Slam or Mortal Strike has an additional 25% chance to critically hit if used within 10 sec.
mbe make Rend more usable somehow tho TfB is op.
Taste for Blood
Whenever your Rend ability causes damage, you have a 33% chance of allowing the use of your Overpower ability for 9 sec. 1 charge. This effect will not occur more than once every 6 sec.
Second Wind
Whenever you are struck by a Stun or Immobilize effect you will generate 10 rage and 5% of your total health over 10 sec.
prob w/o healt part
Shield Mastery/Critical Block/Spell Reflection - Raise your shield, DEflecting the next spell cast on you; or Reduces the chance you'll be hit by spells
here im not sure in what direction to go. some mix of those. mbe DEflecting is ok.
Shield Mastery
Increases your block value by 15% and reduces the cooldown of your Shield Block ability by 10 sec.
Critical Block
Your successful blocks have a 20% chance to block double the normal amount and increases your chance to critically hit with your Shield Slam ability by an additional 5%.
Spell Reflection
Raise your shield, reflecting the next spell cast on you. Lasts 5 sec.
Spell Reflection
Magical damage taken reduced by 20%. Duration: 5 seconds
Improved Spell Reflection Rank 1
Reduces the chance you'll be hit by spells by 2% and when the ability is used it will reflect the first spell cast against the 2 closest party members within 20 yards.
Armored to the Teeth
Increases your attack power by 1 for every 108 armor value you have.
Bloodsurge
Your Heroic Strike, Bloodthirst, and Whirlwind hits have a 7% chance of making your next Slam instant for 5 sec.
slam need some love
Focused Rage
Reduces the rage cost of your offensive abilities by 1.
Improved Revenge - Increases the critical strike chance or Revenge or Increases dmg of Revenge
make it to be similar to Overpower, that stun is op imo
Improved Thunder Clap move to prot talent?
imo, those are the things that might be added and are not too op, everything else might be way op to add
Maybe just go play TBC or WOTLK? It's already there...
Re: Paladins got a rework, Warriors deserve one too
there are [mbe] room for some things to change, as in later exp [tbc/wotlk]. some talent points could be reduced to make space for new talents. mix and use some fancy things like:
Warbringer/Juggernaut - usable while in combat but the cooldown on Charge is increased
Warbringer
Your Charge, Intercept and Intervene abilities are now usable while in combat and in any stance. In addition, your Intervene ability will remove all movement impairing effects.
Juggernaut
Your Charge ability is now usable while in combat, but the cooldown on Charge is increased by 5 sec. Following a Charge, your next Slam or Mortal Strike has an additional 25% chance to critically hit if used within 10 sec.
mbe make Rend more usable somehow tho TfB is op.
Taste for Blood
Whenever your Rend ability causes damage, you have a 33% chance of allowing the use of your Overpower ability for 9 sec. 1 charge. This effect will not occur more than once every 6 sec.
Second Wind
Whenever you are struck by a Stun or Immobilize effect you will generate 10 rage and 5% of your total health over 10 sec.
prob w/o healt part
Shield Mastery/Critical Block/Spell Reflection - Raise your shield, DEflecting the next spell cast on you; or Reduces the chance you'll be hit by spells
here im not sure in what direction to go. some mix of those. mbe DEflecting is ok.
Shield Mastery
Increases your block value by 15% and reduces the cooldown of your Shield Block ability by 10 sec.
Critical Block
Your successful blocks have a 20% chance to block double the normal amount and increases your chance to critically hit with your Shield Slam ability by an additional 5%.
Spell Reflection
Raise your shield, reflecting the next spell cast on you. Lasts 5 sec.
Spell Reflection
Magical damage taken reduced by 20%. Duration: 5 seconds
Improved Spell Reflection Rank 1
Reduces the chance you'll be hit by spells by 2% and when the ability is used it will reflect the first spell cast against the 2 closest party members within 20 yards.
Armored to the Teeth
Increases your attack power by 1 for every 108 armor value you have.
Bloodsurge
Your Heroic Strike, Bloodthirst, and Whirlwind hits have a 7% chance of making your next Slam instant for 5 sec.
slam need some love
Focused Rage
Reduces the rage cost of your offensive abilities by 1.
Improved Revenge - Increases the critical strike chance or Revenge or Increases dmg of Revenge
make it to be similar to Overpower, that stun is op imo
Improved Thunder Clap move to prot talent?
imo, those are the things that might be added and are not too op, everything else might be way op to add
For wotlk they are about fine - for classic every single one of them is a bad idea
Re: Paladins got a rework, Warriors deserve one too
Just watch some Videos from this R14 Warrior, how he uses his Cooldowns/Pots/Engi Items etc. there you can see what a Warrior can do without support.
if you want to talk about the power of an arms warr in PVP then cool. but dont show clips with world buffs & diamond flask cheese where warrior heals for 10k hp a minute btw BIS gear is absolutely broken. classes shouldn't be dependant on gear but that's another discussion
Re: Paladins got a rework, Warriors deserve one too
Posted: Sat May 06, 2023 3:10 am
by Stinkyjames
Warriors are fine, learn to play.
Re: Paladins got a rework, Warriors deserve one too
Posted: Sat May 06, 2023 3:48 am
by Redmagejoe
What Warriors deserve and will likely get in any future rounds of class changes are nerfs to Fury and buffs to Prot to kill the Fury/Prot meta and make Fury not an impossibly high bar against which all other DPS must be measured.
Career Warrior here, by the way.
Re: Paladins got a rework, Warriors deserve one too
Posted: Sat May 06, 2023 3:49 pm
by Fixaren1
Don't play warrior myself on this server, but deep prot kinda shiit. All tanks with prebis and better goes fury/prot spec. Warrior don't need more survival.
1 idea keep shield slam(make it so it scale better) and everytime used it lower CD on bloodthirst/berserkrage by x amount or other spell.
Improved revenge 2 talent and moved next to one handed spec.
Change improved revenge; 1/2 50/100% to gain flurry 30% attack speed on next 3 melee hits.
One handed spec 3 talents 1/2/3 = 3/6/10 So same with less talents.
Re: Paladins got a rework, Warriors deserve one too
Posted: Sat May 06, 2023 6:05 pm
by Bogytoo
I liked the reworked Arms in WotLK, there was synergy between abilities that flowed with each other nicely, at least when I was leveling up. Also the abilities scaling from weapon damage instead flat added value like Rend seemed nice.
Re: Paladins got a rework, Warriors deserve one too
Just put a Paly behind a warrior with a 2H-Sword and see the Magic happen. Imagine a Warrior who does not struggle in a solo scenario, what do you think happens if that warrior has a support. I dont know, for me it sounds like you lack experience with classic warriors.
Just watch some Videos from this R14 Warrior, how he uses his Cooldowns/Pots/Engi Items etc. there you can see what a Warrior can do without support.
Oh yea - as a horde warrior I love my paladin support backing me up...
Re: Paladins got a rework, Warriors deserve one too
Posted: Tue May 09, 2023 9:00 pm
by Anonymouse123
- watch a rogue dominate with no consumables OR gear.
Re: Paladins got a rework, Warriors deserve one too
Posted: Thu May 11, 2023 11:46 am
by Drubarrymooer
Wait....aren't warriors the highest dps class in pve and one of the strongest pvp classes? Why would you make a melee have self sustaining other than their already present CD's like shield wall and defensive stance? Forgive my ignorance if I'm incorrect.
Re: Paladins got a rework, Warriors deserve one too
Wait....aren't warriors the highest dps class in pve and one of the strongest pvp classes? Why would you make a melee have self sustaining other than their already present CD's like shield wall and defensive stance? Forgive my ignorance if I'm incorrect.
Warrs are pretty easily CC'd and kited without consumes. But other than that arms is pretty good. Some warr mains just don't like that they're not the best at E V E R Y T H I N G.
Re: Paladins got a rework, Warriors deserve one too
Posted: Thu May 11, 2023 9:21 pm
by Boras
I agree. Warriors should be buffed. They can't solo naxx on their own yet. They need to be able to cast free heals and have an ability with no cd that makes it so they can't be cc'd and they automatically kill the target. Just one point in the fury talent tree in row 1 should do it.
Re: Paladins got a rework, Warriors deserve one too
I agree. Warriors should be buffed. They can't solo naxx on their own yet. They need to be able to cast free heals and have an ability with no cd that makes it so they can't be cc'd and they automatically kill the target. Just one point in the fury talent tree in row 1 should do it.
You forgot to post this as Myclassisbroken or whatever that uninspired troll's name is.
Re: Paladins got a rework, Warriors deserve one too
Wait....aren't warriors the highest dps class in pve and one of the strongest pvp classes? Why would you make a melee have self sustaining other than their already present CD's like shield wall and defensive stance? Forgive my ignorance if I'm incorrect.
Warrs are pretty easily CC'd and kited without consumes. But other than that arms is pretty good. Some warr mains just don't like that they're not the best at E V E R Y T H I N G.
Warrior mains are the kind of people upset that their melee attacks don't have 40y range
Re: Paladins got a rework, Warriors deserve one too
Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2023 5:17 pm
by Czasku
Ye, i know this thread is kinda old but people should understand that 1v1 was never a thing. Classic is balanced around battlegrounds and guess what; it works. So instead of crying you cant 1v1 a hunter or mage focus on making useless abilities like rend and useless talents like blood craze actually useful and how rage generation works based on weapon speed instead of damage dealt.
Re: Paladins got a rework, Warriors deserve one too
Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2023 5:44 pm
by Getplucked
Vanilla PvP is not balanced around 1v1. Hell, it's not really balanced around anything. It's unbalanced in general.
Warrior is already one of the strongest classes in PvE and PvP. You don't need "reworks" or buffs. Shoo.
Re: Paladins got a rework, Warriors deserve one too
- watch a rogue dominate with no consumables OR gear.
This isn't 1.12 though, this is much earlier in vanilla when rogues were disgustingly broken and could perma-CC you, and a lot of their abilities (like Rupture and Eviscerate) were not based on weapon damage, hence why there are videos of rogues killing people with no gear other than a worn dagger in their main hand.
Re: Paladins got a rework, Warriors deserve one too
Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2023 6:29 pm
by Czasku
Yes, warriors should get a rework. But that kind of rework which makes low geared warriors decent and godly geared warriors toned down. And guess what; it can be fixed with different rage generation formula. You can see how in tbc rage was "normalized" which made warriors drop from S tier dps to B tier.
Re: Paladins got a rework, Warriors deserve one too
Correct. They need Spell Reflect to become C-Tier in PVP (aka still bottom tier. right now they are by themselves in D-Tier)
Also they could use a Buff to Blood Craze (this mostly affects PVP only) to give them more healing: 3% to at LEAST 6% healing.
With a healer (in their current state) they go from a D-Tier to a B-Tier. So still not even top tier.
Virtually any other class (especially ones that dont use mana) with a dedicated healer is still better imo.
P.S. Warrior should NEVER be A-Tier in PVP (in vanilla) as they are already overpowered in PVE. This would be unfair to dominate all aspects of the game.
However they could simply nerf Fury and then its not a problem.
Re: Paladins got a rework, Warriors deserve one too
As it stands right now, Warrior is one of the if not the weakest class in PvP if you don't have a pocket heal or a toolbox full of consumables and trinkets tailored to specific PvP matchups.
You need Frost Reflector up to be able to win against Hunter.
You need FAP to win against Mages and Druids.
You need at least a Greater Holy Protection Potion to win against Ret.
You need to use https://classic.wowhead.com/item=13347/ ... -zin-malor + Sippy or a Resto Pot to be able to beat an aff WL with Succ.
You need trinket up or Living Action to win vs Rogue full stunlock rotation, or be Dwarf. This applies to all classes, except Warlock, Hunter and Paladin.
Without these specific countermeasures you lose those matchups with 0 counterplay possible. In other words, if you don't cheese, you lose.
Of course, this only applies to opponents who play their class to their full extent and know what they are doing. It's easy to kill a WL who tries to fear a Warr and gets gormlessly slaughtered.
In general, it's easy to make out two main problems Warriors have in PvP: The complete lack of self-sustain, no damage mitigation except Shieldwall (effectively removing your ability to deal damage since forced to wear shield, plus it's a ridiculously long CD for what it gives), and an utter susceptibility to CC while having little to no CC themself. Everything a tank should not be dealing with in PvP. On top of all of these problems, Warriors deal with really weird design choices that do not make any sense.
There are a lot of skills they have that other classes have, but they are just better.
For example, a Hunter's 'Wing Clip' slows by 10% more than a Warrior's 'Hamstring' ability, despite them being the same skill.
Retribution Paladins get 6% bonus damage on 2H weapons for 3 talent points, while Warriors only get 5% extra damage for >5< talent points. Hence why no arms Warrior really skills into that except to fill up to next tier maybe.
Retribution Paladins also have a straight up better version of any damaging ability a Warrior has (except execute) - Holy Strike. Which completely circumvents armor and resistances and easily crits for 2k with crappy gear.
Psychic Scream is just a straight up better version of Intimidating Shout, since you do not require to build up a high amount of rage first and it's a much shorter cooldown.
Rend is a joke.
Hamstring is a joke.
So is Thunderclap.
Not being able to charge while in combat is completely dumb aswell and against ranged classes, intercept for a single, long cooldown gap closer really doesn't cut it.
You can see mobs using those abilities and they are just a straight up better version and what seems to be the 'always intended' version, since they are actually useful. Rend doing more damage. Hamstring doing more damage and slowing by more %. Thunderclap doing decent damage and slowing attack speed AND movement speed by about 20-60% (That would be something for 'Improved Thunderclap' talent), just like it used to in Warcraft III. And before some wise guy comes up and tells me it's good for tanking: It's really not. It's just the only option to create AoE threat and barely works. There is a reason people put shield spikes on to hold AoE threat.
Those are all the problems the class greatly suffers from, especially in PvP.
Now I could go on and on about theorycrafting on how to make changes to make the class more well-rounded, because I have many ideas I think are great, but first I want to hear what other warrior players think and if they share any of my points. Because at first there has to be a demand for changes.
Thanks for reading my boo-hoo crypost.
unspeakable! you need consumables to win in consumables oriented pvp!? Andw hat rogue must use or buy to win warrior with full consumables and with decent gear, while you die from 1 overpower?
Re: Paladins got a rework, Warriors deserve one too
- watch a rogue dominate with no consumables OR gear.
So you send an old fart video vs terrible players, but why you doesnt want to link 100000$ tournament with best players of their classes where rogues was raped like puppets, include such rogues stars like Pshero? And its on blizz classic, not on turtle where all lases get freaking HUGE buffs and even wotlk talents and spells?!
So your point is to make balance relying on WORST players possible, not the best?
Re: Paladins got a rework, Warriors deserve one too
Correct. They need Spell Reflect to become C-Tier in PVP (aka still bottom tier. right now they are by themselves in D-Tier)
Also they could use a Buff to Blood Craze (this mostly affects PVP only) to give them more healing: 3% to at LEAST 6% healing.
With a healer (in their current state) they go from a D-Tier to a B-Tier. So still not even top tier.
Virtually any other class (especially ones that dont use mana) with a dedicated healer is still better imo.
P.S. Warrior should NEVER be A-Tier in PVP (in vanilla) as they are already overpowered in PVE. This would be unfair to dominate all aspects of the game.
However they could simply nerf Fury and then its not a problem.
Warrior always was s tier in bg with healers, what are u even talking about?
Re: Paladins got a rework, Warriors deserve one too
Warrior always was s tier in bg with healers, what are u even talking about?
Yeah "Warrior is overpowered in PVP (with healer)" is a common sentiment held by people who have only watched YouTube highlight/clip videos and who have not actually seriously played vanilla PVP.
Warriors merely become VIABLE when they have a healer. They are still not great as smart PVPers will just kill the healer.
NPC Bosses are the things stupid enough to ignore healers. Not real people with basic common sense.
Literally any class in the game becomes vastly more successful with a pocket healer by the way.
This increase in power is not at all "exclusive" to Warrior.
P.S. Turtle WoW is especially hard on Warriors in PVP due to Paladins (extremely common) hardcountering them with Holy Strikes/Shocks ignoring plate armor to crit for usually around 2k + 1.2k damage.
Re: Paladins got a rework, Warriors deserve one too
Warrior always was s tier in bg with healers, what are u even talking about?
Yeah "Warrior is overpowered in PVP (with healer)" is a common sentiment held by people who have only watched YouTube highlight/clip videos and who have not actually seriously played vanilla PVP.
Warriors merely become VIABLE when they have a healer. They are still not great as smart PVPers will just kill the healer.
NPC Bosses are the things stupid enough to ignore healers. Not real people with basic common sense.
Literally any class in the game becomes vastly more successful with a pocket healer by the way.
This increase in power is not at all "exclusive" to Warrior.
P.S. Turtle WoW is especially hard on Warriors in PVP due to Paladins (extremely common) hardcountering them with Holy Strikes/Shocks ignoring plate armor to crit for usually around 2k + 1.2k damage.
Dude, dont try this on me pls, i know about vanilla pvp balance a lot.
Warriors with healers have more impact on bg than for example rogue with healer, or paladin with healer or basically anything with healer. I didnt say that especially on twow that warriors are fine - in twow rogues and warriors are in position of useless crap because they are basically meh in high skill pvp was already without buffs to another classes, but now, after huge buffs to another classes - they are just crap, yet STILL with healer warrior DO decent impact on bg's just.
Re: Paladins got a rework, Warriors deserve one too
Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 11:52 am
by Volkyte
Warriors are very good. (Gear notwistanding)
Pvp is not meant for 1v1 (hence why you got bg) and especially in vanilla wow.
Warriors are meant to go around with a pocket healer and in that case they are a solid force to reckon with.
Bear in mind that vanilla in pvp has no arena either (original vanilla) and was revolving in bg where you are 10+persons.
Another thing I dare to say is many ppl lack the tactical approach to pvp. Sure warrior can be cited non stop. But a smart warrior must chose proper consumables and approach to a fight. Many just charge and spam buttons which in pvp is a very poor choice.
In my small experience in turtle Warriors are very solid.
Re: Paladins got a rework, Warriors deserve one too
Warriors are meant to go around with a pocket healer and in that case they are a solid force to reckon with.
No other class in the game *requires* another player to devote themselves entirely (heals and such) to them in order to have success.
You realize other players/classes are dying if they are not getting healed due to the selfish/needy Warrior *requiring/demanding* all the healing for themselves...?
If a class *requires* another player to even become *viable* then that class is fundamentally broken/weak and needs to be fixed.
Again, even with a Healer a Warrior is pretty impotent as players (with any brain whatsoever) will simply ignore the Warrior and kill their Healer.
Warrior is only useful for applying the overpowered "Mortal Strike" debuff -- other than that they suck in nearly all categories and need to be given new tools to address their countless weaknesses.
Re: Paladins got a rework, Warriors deserve one too
