Paladins got a rework, Warriors deserve one too

[Kerebrien]

As it stands right now, Warrior is one of the if not the weakest class in PvP if you don't have a pocket heal or a toolbox full of consumables and trinkets tailored to specific PvP matchups.

You need Frost Reflector up to be able to win against Hunter.
You need FAP to win against Mages and Druids.
You need at least a Greater Holy Protection Potion to win against Ret.
You need to use https://classic.wowhead.com/item=13347/ ... -zin-malor + Sippy or a Resto Pot to be able to beat an aff WL with Succ.
You need trinket up or Living Action to win vs Rogue full stunlock rotation, or be Dwarf. This applies to all classes, except Warlock, Hunter and Paladin.

Without these specific countermeasures you lose those matchups with 0 counterplay possible. In other words, if you don't cheese, you lose.

Of course, this only applies to opponents who play their class to their full extent and know what they are doing. It's easy to kill a WL who tries to fear a Warr and gets gormlessly slaughtered.

In general, it's easy to make out two main problems Warriors have in PvP: The complete lack of self-sustain, no damage mitigation except Shieldwall (effectively removing your ability to deal damage since forced to wear shield, plus it's a ridiculously long CD for what it gives), and an utter susceptibility to CC while having little to no CC themself. Everything a tank should not be dealing with in PvP. On top of all of these problems, Warriors deal with really weird design choices that do not make any sense.
There are a lot of skills they have that other classes have, but they are just better.
For example, a Hunter's 'Wing Clip' slows by 10% more than a Warrior's 'Hamstring' ability, despite them being the same skill.
Retribution Paladins get 6% bonus damage on 2H weapons for 3 talent points, while Warriors only get 5% extra damage for >5< talent points. Hence why no arms Warrior really skills into that except to fill up to next tier maybe.
Retribution Paladins also have a straight up better version of any damaging ability a Warrior has (except execute) - Holy Strike. Which completely circumvents armor and resistances and easily crits for 2k with crappy gear.
Psychic Scream is just a straight up better version of Intimidating Shout, since you do not require to build up a high amount of rage first and it's a much shorter cooldown.
Rend is a joke.
Hamstring is a joke.
So is Thunderclap.
Not being able to charge while in combat is completely dumb aswell and against ranged classes, intercept for a single, long cooldown gap closer really doesn't cut it.
You can see mobs using those abilities and they are just a straight up better version and what seems to be the 'always intended' version, since they are actually useful. Rend doing more damage. Hamstring doing more damage and slowing by more %. Thunderclap doing decent damage and slowing attack speed AND movement speed by about 20-60% (That would be something for 'Improved Thunderclap' talent), just like it used to in Warcraft III. And before some wise guy comes up and tells me it's good for tanking: It's really not. It's just the only option to create AoE threat and barely works. There is a reason people put shield spikes on to hold AoE threat.

Those are all the problems the class greatly suffers from, especially in PvP.
Now I could go on and on about theorycrafting on how to make changes to make the class more well-rounded, because I have many ideas I think are great, but first I want to hear what other warrior players think and if they share any of my points. Because at first there has to be a demand for changes.

Thanks for reading my boo-hoo crypost.

[Velite]

Fitting in with the idea, since it was really Protection that got reworked, I definitely support Protection warrior getting reworked to be properly worth it even for offtanks.

I know that isn't what you were looking for, but you'll have more weight once ret actually becomes good lol.

[Garish]

warrior is fine, just group with any support class friend in pvp as the developers wanted it to be played.

warrior in pvp has to be played in duo, the class has many weaknesses but a lot of damage and health. a warrior protection with a support on the side is unstoppable.

[Kerebrien]

a warrior protection with a support on the side is unstoppable.

You obviously never played warrior in classic or you would know they do 0 damage.
Perhaps you watched the recent Swifty pre-patch oneshot video.
This is not WotLK pre-patch tho.

[Geojak]

i agree warrios rly need some nerfs.
offhand hits lowered rage generation
no heroic strike quuening
sippy set +healt scaling removed like in tbc
warrios should not be topic damage meters by a long shot, so they need worse scaling

rework warrios pls, that is nerf them

[Garish]

a warrior protection with a support on the side is unstoppable.

You obviously never played warrior in classic or you would know they do 0 damage.
Perhaps you watched the recent Swifty pre-patch oneshot video.
This is not WotLK pre-patch tho.

You obviously never played warrior in classic or you would know they do 0 damage.

warrior is the best in pve DPS as fury in pvp they can 2-3 shot a mail user with crits... that is a fact.

[Kerebrien]

Dude. What is wrong with you? Why are you talking about fury warrior all of a sudden when we were talking about prot?
Desperate to make a point there I see. Nobody is arguing fury warr does top DPS.

[Kerebrien]

i agree warrios rly need some nerfs.
offhand hits lowered rage generation
no heroic strike quuening
sippy set +healt scaling removed like in tbc
warrios should not be topic damage meters by a long shot, so they need worse scaling

rework warrios pls, that is nerf them

LOL
Are you writing on phone btw?
Your post doesn't make any sense as it is, but the words are all wrong aswell

[Geojak]

I do write on phone, and I do mistype alot. Big finger issues

[Kerebrien]

Then please check your posts next time before miscommunication arises. Though I feel your opinions are rather ill-informed regardless.

I was also asking Warrior players for feedback and ideas on my thoughts, not other-class crybabies to ask for nerfs when a rework is something that has nothing to do with nerfing or buffing. The small things they already did (Decisive Strike, although it's now a little underwhelming again), Improved Thunderclap doing more damage instead of costing 1 less rage per point (useless) and Intervene.
Something I thought about earlier that would be rather cool to have would be 'Last Stand' putting the Warrior into 'Undying Mode' (meaning he can't be reduced below 1 HP), either with a fixed amount of time or making it expand all rage and granting +1 sec per 10 rage spent or something.
Compared to the Paladin rework and seeing talents from TBC / WotLK (which I find rather concerning) in their tree, Pandora's Box was opened. Because when they get that, there is no reason Warriors shouldn't get Spell Reflection or Shattering Throw. And other classes also have the right to talents / abilities from TBC - Wrath.

[Geojak]

Oh I was a warrior main for all of original vanilla. Only because I don't play one on twow doesn't mean I ain't warrior at heart

[Thol]

Warrior with Blessing of Freedom is almost unstoppable already. I think it's cool to have symbiotic relationships between classes. No class/spec should be the end all, be all. It's true a geared Ret can be a bit of a one man army in PvP but they're weak in PvE. On the other hand, Warriors dominate in PvE but not in PvP duels. It's hard to balance PvE and PvP at the same time.

[Geojak]

Op, you make it sound as if classes are netilted to changes. What is the value of changes and reworks just for changes sake.

Warriors unlike paladins dilont have fundamental issues that they, can't even perform their speccs objective (tank or dps)

Warriors are already top tank and dps.

Why rework the class?

Is it not fun to play? I have played all classes but rogues in vanilla over the decades and warrior is the most fun class.

I rly don't see why we need those reworks you ask for or talents and abilities from tbc or Wotlk to make the class feel overloaded.

Which problems in balance are we solving? (serous question not meant rhetorical)

[Philipred]

Just give us "Spell Reflect"

[Gantulga]

This is one of the dumbest suggestions I've ever seen.

Warriors are an absolute PvP powerhouse thanks to their scaling. You want to buff a SSS tier class?

[Geojak]

After reading his suggestion again, he might want to buff prot in pvp??

[Ugoboom]

You need Frost Reflector up to be able to win against Hunter.
You need FAP to win against Mages and Druids.
You need at least a Greater Holy Protection Potion to win against Ret.
You need to use https://classic.wowhead.com/item=13347/ ... -zin-malor + Sippy or a Resto Pot to be able to beat an aff WL with Succ.
You need trinket up or Living Action to win vs Rogue full stunlock rotation, or be Dwarf. This applies to all classes, except Warlock, Hunter and Paladin.

Man you are clearly clueless about PVP. you can resto pot and/or chal shout/mocking blow the pet to counter a hunter trap, and this is more than what most meele classes can do about hunter which is meant to be a strong 1v1 contender while less good in BG settings where you have friendly cleansers.

And yes, vanilla PVP is a consume heavy affair. You complain that consumes are needed.... no that's the name of vanilla, in both pvp and pve. To de-consume vanilla is to fundamentally redesign the game and you'd need to revamp much more than just warrior with this.

>Hamstring is a joke.
so is your post lol. if you think the combo of charge/intercept + hamstring isn't one of two reasons you bring warriors to BGs and arenas.... man you are clueless.

[Reploidrocsa]

As a healer in pvp i always look for warriors because i suck alone. With heals warriors are monsters, look for healers

[Conny]

Just put a Paly behind a warrior with a 2H-Sword and see the Magic happen. Imagine a Warrior who does not struggle in a solo scenario, what do you think happens if that warrior has a support. I dont know, for me it sounds like you lack experience with classic warriors.

https://www.youtube.com/c/ChillnkillPVP/videos

Just watch some Videos from this R14 Warrior, how he uses his Cooldowns/Pots/Engi Items etc. there you can see what a Warrior can do without support.

[Isvya]

Nerf lionheart and titanics

[Geojak]

+1 on nerfing lionheart by 1% crit

[Xudo]

Compared to paladin with 2 bubbles and 1 full heal, Warrior actually lacks save buttons. It is only Shieldwall and Last Stand.
Shieldwall is weaker version of bubble. Last stand is weaker version of Lay of Hands.

If you have "pocket heal" and go 2vs2, then enemy party just CC you and kill your heal. What can you do to protect healer? Slow them down with hamstring (or piercing howl, if you get this talent) and disarm. If healer is attacked by pet, you can taunt him (or use mocking blow). And your heal should do some legwork to run away from attack. During this he is not healing you obviously.

Feels like Warrior is supposed to be pure damage dealer in PvP. Something that should be CCed just after fight starts.

[Isvya]

+1 on nerfing lionheart by 1% crit

Lionheart 1 hit 1 crit 1% attack speed
Titanics 1 hit 1 crit 1% attack speed

I am a warrior main by heart, always been... But these 2 items are just insanely overpowered, you can have them sub 60 and never worry about replacing (titanics is exception bcs there is a single item in the very last raid thats better - carnage).
Anyways my point is that i could not make myself roll a warrior here as the gearing route is so boring with these 2 items, already did it so many times.
R10 set same shit, you can do naxx with having 2pcs r10, lionheart, titanics and some other pre raid stuff and beat everyone else on the meters but more geared warriors. The class is so much fun to play but the gearing, at least the early stages are so dumb.

On the topic: stop comparing warrior to paladin, makes no sense at all. Its like comparing bread to butter... You just dont, you put them together lol

[Ire]

I think spell reflect and removal of the shared cd of intervene with intercept would make the class perfect.

Was happy to see they added intervene, but I think spell reflect should be there too, and I don't think intervene should share a CD with intercept, that just makes it feel bad to use.

[Bloodline1x9]

Except for the Avatar that I suggested for prot warriors in the suggestions section, I understand that it won't help pvp warriors in general, because prot spec is dead anyway.
And I know what they are very bursting in pvp in relation to control - this is Second Wind.



And not as a talent, but as a general passive for all specs. Because if give it to one spec only,
then that one will 100% become as a main pvp spec. It is better to give them all at once.

Warriors won't have spell reflect in vanilla but. But standing in nova they will still shoot and regenerate.

[Justgens]

I agree on protection rework, the tree is just terrible and the only talent that matters is Defiance. Warrior doesn't really need help tanking but it would be nice if there was actually something worth taking in prot past 16 points

[Noce]

there are [mbe] room for some things to change, as in later exp [tbc/wotlk]. some talent points could be reduced to make space for new talents. mix and use some fancy things like:

Warbringer/Juggernaut - usable while in combat but the cooldown on Charge is increased
Warbringer
Your Charge, Intercept and Intervene abilities are now usable while in combat and in any stance. In addition, your Intervene ability will remove all movement impairing effects.
Juggernaut
Your Charge ability is now usable while in combat, but the cooldown on Charge is increased by 5 sec. Following a Charge, your next Slam or Mortal Strike has an additional 25% chance to critically hit if used within 10 sec.

mbe make Rend more usable somehow tho TfB is op.
Taste for Blood
Whenever your Rend ability causes damage, you have a 33% chance of allowing the use of your Overpower ability for 9 sec. 1 charge. This effect will not occur more than once every 6 sec.

Second Wind
Whenever you are struck by a Stun or Immobilize effect you will generate 10 rage and 5% of your total health over 10 sec.
prob w/o healt part

Shield Mastery/Critical Block/Spell Reflection - Raise your shield, DEflecting the next spell cast on you; or Reduces the chance you'll be hit by spells
here im not sure in what direction to go. some mix of those. mbe DEflecting is ok.
Shield Mastery
Increases your block value by 15% and reduces the cooldown of your Shield Block ability by 10 sec.
Critical Block
Your successful blocks have a 20% chance to block double the normal amount and increases your chance to critically hit with your Shield Slam ability by an additional 5%.
Spell Reflection
Raise your shield, reflecting the next spell cast on you. Lasts 5 sec.
Spell Reflection
Magical damage taken reduced by 20%. Duration: 5 seconds
Improved Spell Reflection Rank 1
Reduces the chance you'll be hit by spells by 2% and when the ability is used it will reflect the first spell cast against the 2 closest party members within 20 yards.

Armored to the Teeth
Increases your attack power by 1 for every 108 armor value you have.

Bloodsurge
Your Heroic Strike, Bloodthirst, and Whirlwind hits have a 7% chance of making your next Slam instant for 5 sec.
slam need some love

Focused Rage
Reduces the rage cost of your offensive abilities by 1.

Improved Revenge - Increases the critical strike chance or Revenge or Increases dmg of Revenge
make it to be similar to Overpower, that stun is op imo

Improved Thunder Clap move to prot talent?

imo, those are the things that might be added and are not too op, everything else might be way op to add

[Szachmatsky]

there are [mbe] room for some things to change, as in later exp [tbc/wotlk]. some talent points could be reduced to make space for new talents. mix and use some fancy things like:

Warbringer/Juggernaut - usable while in combat but the cooldown on Charge is increased
Warbringer
Your Charge, Intercept and Intervene abilities are now usable while in combat and in any stance. In addition, your Intervene ability will remove all movement impairing effects.
Juggernaut
Your Charge ability is now usable while in combat, but the cooldown on Charge is increased by 5 sec. Following a Charge, your next Slam or Mortal Strike has an additional 25% chance to critically hit if used within 10 sec.

mbe make Rend more usable somehow tho TfB is op.
Taste for Blood
Whenever your Rend ability causes damage, you have a 33% chance of allowing the use of your Overpower ability for 9 sec. 1 charge. This effect will not occur more than once every 6 sec.

Second Wind
Whenever you are struck by a Stun or Immobilize effect you will generate 10 rage and 5% of your total health over 10 sec.
prob w/o healt part

Shield Mastery/Critical Block/Spell Reflection - Raise your shield, DEflecting the next spell cast on you; or Reduces the chance you'll be hit by spells
here im not sure in what direction to go. some mix of those. mbe DEflecting is ok.
Shield Mastery
Increases your block value by 15% and reduces the cooldown of your Shield Block ability by 10 sec.
Critical Block
Your successful blocks have a 20% chance to block double the normal amount and increases your chance to critically hit with your Shield Slam ability by an additional 5%.
Spell Reflection
Raise your shield, reflecting the next spell cast on you. Lasts 5 sec.
Spell Reflection
Magical damage taken reduced by 20%. Duration: 5 seconds
Improved Spell Reflection Rank 1
Reduces the chance you'll be hit by spells by 2% and when the ability is used it will reflect the first spell cast against the 2 closest party members within 20 yards.

Armored to the Teeth
Increases your attack power by 1 for every 108 armor value you have.

Bloodsurge
Your Heroic Strike, Bloodthirst, and Whirlwind hits have a 7% chance of making your next Slam instant for 5 sec.
slam need some love

Focused Rage
Reduces the rage cost of your offensive abilities by 1.

Improved Revenge - Increases the critical strike chance or Revenge or Increases dmg of Revenge
make it to be similar to Overpower, that stun is op imo

Improved Thunder Clap move to prot talent?

imo, those are the things that might be added and are not too op, everything else might be way op to add

Maybe just go play TBC or WOTLK? It's already there...

[Kairion]

there are [mbe] room for some things to change, as in later exp [tbc/wotlk]. some talent points could be reduced to make space for new talents. mix and use some fancy things like:

Warbringer/Juggernaut - usable while in combat but the cooldown on Charge is increased
Warbringer
Your Charge, Intercept and Intervene abilities are now usable while in combat and in any stance. In addition, your Intervene ability will remove all movement impairing effects.
Juggernaut
Your Charge ability is now usable while in combat, but the cooldown on Charge is increased by 5 sec. Following a Charge, your next Slam or Mortal Strike has an additional 25% chance to critically hit if used within 10 sec.

mbe make Rend more usable somehow tho TfB is op.
Taste for Blood
Whenever your Rend ability causes damage, you have a 33% chance of allowing the use of your Overpower ability for 9 sec. 1 charge. This effect will not occur more than once every 6 sec.

Second Wind
Whenever you are struck by a Stun or Immobilize effect you will generate 10 rage and 5% of your total health over 10 sec.
prob w/o healt part

Shield Mastery/Critical Block/Spell Reflection - Raise your shield, DEflecting the next spell cast on you; or Reduces the chance you'll be hit by spells
here im not sure in what direction to go. some mix of those. mbe DEflecting is ok.
Shield Mastery
Increases your block value by 15% and reduces the cooldown of your Shield Block ability by 10 sec.
Critical Block
Your successful blocks have a 20% chance to block double the normal amount and increases your chance to critically hit with your Shield Slam ability by an additional 5%.
Spell Reflection
Raise your shield, reflecting the next spell cast on you. Lasts 5 sec.
Spell Reflection
Magical damage taken reduced by 20%. Duration: 5 seconds
Improved Spell Reflection Rank 1
Reduces the chance you'll be hit by spells by 2% and when the ability is used it will reflect the first spell cast against the 2 closest party members within 20 yards.

Armored to the Teeth
Increases your attack power by 1 for every 108 armor value you have.

Bloodsurge
Your Heroic Strike, Bloodthirst, and Whirlwind hits have a 7% chance of making your next Slam instant for 5 sec.
slam need some love

Focused Rage
Reduces the rage cost of your offensive abilities by 1.

Improved Revenge - Increases the critical strike chance or Revenge or Increases dmg of Revenge
make it to be similar to Overpower, that stun is op imo

Improved Thunder Clap move to prot talent?

imo, those are the things that might be added and are not too op, everything else might be way op to add

For wotlk they are about fine - for classic every single one of them is a bad idea

[Forumdweller]

https://www.youtube.com/c/ChillnkillPVP/videos

Just watch some Videos from this R14 Warrior, how he uses his Cooldowns/Pots/Engi Items etc. there you can see what a Warrior can do without support.

if you want to talk about the power of an arms warr in PVP then cool. but dont show clips with world buffs & diamond flask cheese where warrior heals for 10k hp a minute btw BIS gear is absolutely broken. classes shouldn't be dependant on gear but that's another discussion

[Stinkyjames]

Warriors are fine, learn to play.

[Redmagejoe]

What Warriors deserve and will likely get in any future rounds of class changes are nerfs to Fury and buffs to Prot to kill the Fury/Prot meta and make Fury not an impossibly high bar against which all other DPS must be measured.

Career Warrior here, by the way.

[Fixaren1]

Don't play warrior myself on this server, but deep prot kinda shiit. All tanks with prebis and better goes fury/prot spec. Warrior don't need more survival.


1 idea keep shield slam(make it so it scale better) and everytime used it lower CD on bloodthirst/berserkrage by x amount or other spell.

Improved revenge 2 talent and moved next to one handed spec.
Change improved revenge; 1/2 50/100% to gain flurry 30% attack speed on next 3 melee hits.

One handed spec 3 talents 1/2/3 = 3/6/10 So same with less talents.

[Bogytoo]

I liked the reworked Arms in WotLK, there was synergy between abilities that flowed with each other nicely, at least when I was leveling up. Also the abilities scaling from weapon damage instead flat added value like Rend seemed nice.

[Reptilewow]

https://www.youtube.com/c/ChillnkillPVP/videos

Just watch some Videos from this R14 Warrior, how he uses his Cooldowns/Pots/Engi Items etc. there you can see what a Warrior can do without support.

Lol. Thanks for this gem mate