Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Mac
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Mac » Mon Sep 18, 2023 5:00 am

Let’s all dogpile!

Turtlewow1783
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Turtlewow1783 » Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:58 pm

"Both of these reasons are identical to saying women who have been raped deserved it because they wore a short skirt."
While I disagree that they are identical I do see what I believe the OP was trying to convey; Namely, "If you voluntarily do X, then you should expect/accept consequence Y".
If you are PvP flagged, temporarily or permanently (war mode), intentionally or accidentally, you should accept the (potential) consequence of ganking.

The problem is that's not an argument, that's a statement telling other people how they should feel/view this issue and ignores the real underlying question of "is ganking a good thing for the game/server"?
If ganking has a net positive impact to the game/server (and reasonable arguments are made to this effect) then it's easier for those who don't like it to accept it as a necessary evil and move on.
If ganking does not have a net positive impact on the game/server then it's reasonable to talk about ways of changing and improving that aspect of the game.

For what it's worth, I thought the OPs 3 suggestions were very reasonable.

Shaman111
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Shaman111 » Mon Sep 18, 2023 4:03 pm

guy flags pvp on pve server
gets ganked
writes book long post on a thread complaining about ganking

cant make this up
Matches wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2023 6:31 pm

Wanted to look sexy is not the same as wanting to be raped.

Wearing a short skirt does not justify rape.
hahahah. thanks op. time to do some ganking i guess

Xudo
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Xudo » Mon Sep 18, 2023 4:11 pm

I wrote long article about it long ago: World pvp, low level bg, warmode and how to fix all of this. Nothing to add to this topic so far.
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Turboman
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Turboman » Mon Sep 18, 2023 4:57 pm

Matches wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2023 6:31 pm


Both of these reasons are identical to saying women who have been raped deserved it because they wore a short skirt.
Stopped reading after this. The warmode on this server has only two problems:
1) No crossfaction world pvp

2) Blue unflagged players can target pvp-flagged players.

Torta should add crossfaction pvp and either disable blue rats from wpvp if not flagged or increase the pvp-flag status after they attacked someone for several hours instead of 10 minutes.

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Wuffie
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Wuffie » Mon Sep 18, 2023 5:21 pm

Ganking and raping is the same? Are you serious???

These kind of people are consuming media or are in schools where they learn to think in this manner and it scares me. This is so utterly stupid i cant even.

I hope you will never end up in a position of power!

Mac
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Mac » Mon Sep 18, 2023 5:25 pm

Turboman wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 4:57 pm
Stopped reading after this. The warmode on this server has only two problems:
1) No crossfaction world pvp

2) Blue unflagged players can target pvp-flagged players.

Torta should add crossfaction pvp and either disable blue rats from wpvp if not flagged or increase the pvp-flag status after they attacked someone for several hours instead of 10 minutes.
Bluewalling never bothered me. It keeps you on your toes the same way ganking does. Makes the game more interesting which to me is the whole point of being PVP flagged while leveling.

No crossfaction PVP is a bummer. I’d love to be able to flag FFA in the open world.

Turboman
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Turboman » Mon Sep 18, 2023 6:55 pm

Mac wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 5:25 pm
Turboman wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 4:57 pm
Stopped reading after this. The warmode on this server has only two problems:
1) No crossfaction world pvp

2) Blue unflagged players can target pvp-flagged players.

Torta should add crossfaction pvp and either disable blue rats from wpvp if not flagged or increase the pvp-flag status after they attacked someone for several hours instead of 10 minutes.
Bluewalling never bothered me. It keeps you on your toes the same way ganking does. Makes the game more interesting which to me is the whole point of being PVP flagged while leveling.

No crossfaction PVP is a bummer. I’d love to be able to flag FFA in the open world.
The whole point of pvp is fighting other players who are also
willing to fight, not the blue ratting cunts that cast their spells from the safety of unflagged status and then run. Devs should increase the duration of pvp-flagged status for these backstabbing cunts from 10 minutes to 24 hours or so.

Blackduck
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Blackduck » Mon Sep 18, 2023 9:07 pm

warmode is just free exp on this server

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Akalix
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Akalix » Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:49 pm

Matches wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2023 6:31 pm
Both of these reasons are identical to saying women who have been raped deserved it because they wore a short skirt.
What a horrible thing to compare PvP combat in a video game to.

Nonetheless, we do not have plans to add rules restricting who can and who cannot engage in PvP combat against other characters flagged for PvP.

Don't get into a boxing ring if you don't want to get punched.
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Bigsmerf
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Bigsmerf » Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:58 pm

Akalix wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:49 pm
Matches wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2023 6:31 pm
Both of these reasons are identical to saying women who have been raped deserved it because they wore a short skirt.
What a horrible thing to compare PvP combat in a video game to.

Nonetheless, we do not have plans to add rules restricting who can and who cannot engage in PvP combat against other characters flagged for PvP.

Don't get into a boxing ring if you don't want to get punched.
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Hamalam
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Hamalam » Mon Sep 18, 2023 11:09 pm

Top tier KEK. What a man OP is. Living in his own fantasy. Get a life.
Greetings from Ham(da)(the)... (warr) (getter) (etc..)

GIT GUD

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Bigsmerf
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Bigsmerf » Mon Sep 18, 2023 11:11 pm

This is WoW. None of us have lives.
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Mac
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Mac » Tue Sep 19, 2023 12:09 am

Turboman wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 6:55 pm
Mac wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 5:25 pm
Turboman wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 4:57 pm
Stopped reading after this. The warmode on this server has only two problems:
1) No crossfaction world pvp

2) Blue unflagged players can target pvp-flagged players.

Torta should add crossfaction pvp and either disable blue rats from wpvp if not flagged or increase the pvp-flag status after they attacked someone for several hours instead of 10 minutes.
Bluewalling never bothered me. It keeps you on your toes the same way ganking does. Makes the game more interesting which to me is the whole point of being PVP flagged while leveling.

No crossfaction PVP is a bummer. I’d love to be able to flag FFA in the open world.
The whole point of pvp is fighting other players who are also
willing to fight, not the blue ratting cunts that cast their spells from the safety of unflagged status and then run. Devs should increase the duration of pvp-flagged status for these backstabbing cunts from 10 minutes to 24 hours or so.
They get a free opening shot but once they’ve done that you can kill them. And if you can’t and they get away then that’s on you. It’s world pvp, you don’t always get to take the first shot.

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Imperium
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Imperium » Tue Sep 19, 2023 3:14 am

On world PvP servers, the justification is "this is a PvP server, get used to it", or "ganking is part of PvP". - Correct.

On player-choice PvP servers, such as TWoW, the justification is "you turned PvP on, so it's your own fault - if you don't want ganking, turn PvP off". - Correct. Turn it Off and don't complain

Both of these reasons are identical to saying women who have been raped deserved it because they wore a short skirt. - You are out of touch and play WoW too much if you really feel this way.

PvP is optional and not forced, it's a videogame where your actions have direct consenquences, what you do in real life, anything could happen, no matter what you are, who you are, or what your doing, PvP flagging is optional completely. Don't be flagged.

Not even gonna bother giving critic or reaction to someone who p[oints out PvP is optional and then complains about ganking
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Turtlewow1783
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Turtlewow1783 » Tue Sep 19, 2023 8:31 am

The OP is making a distinction between wPvP and ganking.
They are saying (paraphrasing) I want to engage in wPvP where both sides have a chance of winning/surviving. I don't want to engage in ganking where one side has virtually zero change of surviving, let along winning.
Many of the responses have been along the lines of (paraphrasing) ganking is part of PvP so accept it or don't PvP. You can't have one without the other.

But does ganking have to be part of PvP? A lot of people have come to the defence of ganking (or at least not condemning it) without giving real justification of why it should exist in the game at all.
If, as the OP suggested, there is a level difference barrier to initiating one on one PvP this would almost entirely stop ganking. So what's the argument against it?
Many people have ridiculed the OP but not offered constructive feedback as to why it would be a bad idea.
Don't get into a boxing ring if you don't want to get punched.
In the context of ganking a more accurate analogy would be "Don't get into a boxing ring if you don't want to get punched by an opponent with vastly more experience and several weight categories above you"

Turboman
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Turboman » Tue Sep 19, 2023 9:09 am

Mac wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2023 12:09 am
Turboman wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 6:55 pm
Mac wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 5:25 pm


Bluewalling never bothered me. It keeps you on your toes the same way ganking does. Makes the game more interesting which to me is the whole point of being PVP flagged while leveling.

No crossfaction PVP is a bummer. I’d love to be able to flag FFA in the open world.
The whole point of pvp is fighting other players who are also
willing to fight, not the blue ratting cunts that cast their spells from the safety of unflagged status and then run. Devs should increase the duration of pvp-flagged status for these backstabbing cunts from 10 minutes to 24 hours or so.
They get a free opening shot but once they’ve done
Once they are done they're not standing still and wait for me to res, they run away, and by the time when i find them they are blue again and refuse to attack. Its a stupid mechanic and its not "on me" that i cant attack them, its on the devs that dont want to change that.

Ruthus
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Ruthus » Tue Sep 19, 2023 10:19 am

If that's on the devs for being unwilling to change the game and not on you, how does that not also apply to ganking in the first place? Stop crying.

Blackduck
Posts: 112

Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Blackduck » Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:56 pm

The truth is that most people that complain about ganking just want to solo level with a 30% exp bonus. If the exp bonus was removed the majority of the people doing the war mode challenge on this server would disable it.
Turtlewow1783 wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2023 8:31 am
But does ganking have to be part of PvP? A lot of people have come to the defence of ganking (or at least not condemning it) without giving real justification of why it should exist in the game at all.
But to answer your question it's there to encourage group/guild play. If you're being attacked by a high level player you're supposed to get your high level friends, guildies or fellow alliance players to come help you. When this happens it's actually a pretty cool experience to turn the tables on someone ganking. Anything that encourages group play in an MMO is a good thing especially if something caused organically like with world pvp.

I think the real problem is that when the game was designed they made it too easy to level up by yourself and without having to rely on a group at all. This is made even worse on Turtle where you get double exp and you can just kill mobs and get to level 60 in a few days without doing a single quest or setting foot in a dungeon. If the leveling experience encouraged more people to play in groups and even travel with high level players I think ganking would be less of an issue. In that environment if you were ganked people would ask, "Well why were you playing by yourself" instead of just saying that you need to get used to it.

Turtlewow1783
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Turtlewow1783 » Tue Sep 19, 2023 7:26 pm

Blackduck wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:56 pm
But to answer your question it's there to encourage group/guild play. If you're being attacked by a high level player you're supposed to get your high level friends, guildies or fellow alliance players to come help you. When this happens it's actually a pretty cool experience to turn the tables on someone ganking. Anything that encourages group play in an MMO is a good thing especially if something caused organically like with world pvp.

I think the real problem is that when the game was designed they made it too easy to level up by yourself and without having to rely on a group at all. This is made even worse on Turtle where you get double exp and you can just kill mobs and get to level 60 in a few days without doing a single quest or setting foot in a dungeon. If the leveling experience encouraged more people to play in groups and even travel with high level players I think ganking would be less of an issue. In that environment if you were ganked people would ask, "Well why were you playing by yourself" instead of just saying that you need to get used to it.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I think you're right. Most of the ardent anti-gankers are probably solo levellers who don't have access to high level friends/guildies to help. As you say, (T)WoW is very solo friendly which doesn't help itself in this regard.

I personally find it a shame as I think sporadic wPvP probably appeals to quite a few people (fighting over a mining node, epic Southshore vs Tarren Mill battles etc) but (frequent) ganking puts them off PvP entirely and therefore they miss out on the 'fun' side of PvP and the overall PvP community is diminished.

Mac
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Mac » Wed Sep 20, 2023 3:40 am

Turboman wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2023 9:09 am
Mac wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2023 12:09 am
Turboman wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 6:55 pm


The whole point of pvp is fighting other players who are also
willing to fight, not the blue ratting cunts that cast their spells from the safety of unflagged status and then run. Devs should increase the duration of pvp-flagged status for these backstabbing cunts from 10 minutes to 24 hours or so.
They get a free opening shot but once they’ve done
Once they are done they're not standing
Because they’re dead because you were good enough to kill them despite them having advantage. And if not well it’s on you that you lost a PVP fight in a video game. Not the end of the world, you’ll get over it.

Pureavatar
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Pureavatar » Wed Sep 20, 2023 3:59 am

Turtlewow1783 wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2023 8:31 am
The OP is making a distinction between wPvP and ganking.
They are saying (paraphrasing) I want to engage in wPvP where both sides have a chance of winning/surviving. I don't want to engage in ganking where one side has virtually zero change of surviving, let along winning.
Many of the responses have been along the lines of (paraphrasing) ganking is part of PvP so accept it or don't PvP. You can't have one without the other.

But does ganking have to be part of PvP? A lot of people have come to the defence of ganking (or at least not condemning it) without giving real justification of why it should exist in the game at all.
If, as the OP suggested, there is a level difference barrier to initiating one on one PvP this would almost entirely stop ganking. So what's the argument against it?
Many people have ridiculed the OP but not offered constructive feedback as to why it would be a bad idea.
Don't get into a boxing ring if you don't want to get punched.
In the context of ganking a more accurate analogy would be "Don't get into a boxing ring if you don't want to get punched by an opponent with vastly more experience and several weight categories above you"
Don't join "War" mode unless you're ready to go to war.
All's fair in love and war.
If you can't take the heat get off the battle field.

Turboman
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Turboman » Wed Sep 20, 2023 7:24 am

Mac wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2023 3:40 am
Turboman wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2023 9:09 am
Mac wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2023 12:09 am


They get a free opening shot but once they’ve done
Once they are done they're not standing
Because they’re dead because you were good enough to kill them despite them having advantage. And if not well it’s on you that you lost a PVP fight in a video game. Not the end of the world, you’ll get over it.
Out of all world pvp engagements i had only one blue guy that fought me 1 vs 1 (undead hunter in the barrens), other blue rats that i've encountered just disturbed my duel with whoever i was fighting at the moment, and then they ran away waiting for the pvp flag to disappear. Honestly just dont reply to me, you either a troll or straight up a moronic idiot.

Mac
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Mac » Wed Sep 20, 2023 7:47 am

Turboman wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2023 7:24 am
Mac wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2023 3:40 am
Turboman wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2023 9:09 am


Once they are done they're not standing
Because they’re dead because you were good enough to kill them despite them having advantage. And if not well it’s on you that you lost a PVP fight in a video game. Not the end of the world, you’ll get over it.
Out of all world pvp engagements i had only one blue guy that fought me 1 vs 1 (undead hunter in the barrens), other blue rats that i've encountered just disturbed my duel with whoever i was fighting at the moment, and then they ran away waiting for the pvp flag to disappear. Honestly just dont reply to me, you either a troll or straight up a moronic idiot.
If you want 1v1 duels don’t flag for PVP. Hang out at the Crossroads/Goldshire/where ever and /duel people.

Ivanturtle
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Ivanturtle » Wed Sep 20, 2023 8:23 am

Histrionics aside, I do agree that there is literally no reason to be able to attack greys. The only outcome from allowing it is griefing, frustration, and harming the world pvp experience because opting into it is just opting in to getting ganked, camped, griefed, and harassed- meaning less people will opt to do it, and the wpvp scene is less vibrant. And if you say anything about it, you get derided for 'whining' about an experience that you volunteered for.

I WANTED to volunteer for organic, emergent pvp encounters with people of my level, spicing up the levelling experience. I don't want to volunteer to be some sweaty toad's victim because he has nothing better to do than make the game unplayable for others.

Frankly, I see no reason why the ability to gank greys would be defended unless you're a kneejerk reactionary #nochanges nerd, or if you yourself are a lowlife griefer who enjoys ruining other people's experience. In either case I don't think your opinion should be listened to, and it's simply objectively better for the game to prevent high level players from fighting low level players at all.

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Pepesmite
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Pepesmite » Wed Sep 20, 2023 8:37 am

Topic closed.
I would like to clarify some points regarding PVP on our server. Our server is RP/PVE, which means that PVP is not the main focus. In order to engage in PVP, certain actions need to be taken to activate it. Therefore, the responsibility and consequences of PVP lies with the player who initiates it in some way. (Grifing is not allowed as it violates server rules).
If you do not wish to participate in PVP, please adhere to the following guidelines:
1. Do not use the Warmode challenge.
2. Refrain from attacking players from the opposing faction.
3. Avoid quests that are related to PVP and may activate the PVP flag.
4. Ensure that the PVP flag is not activated on your character.
5. Do not enter battlegrounds or the Bloodring.
By following these conditions, you will not be involved in PVP at all. However, in all other cases (except for grifing), the responsibility for engaging in PVP rests with you. Additionally, I highly recommend reading the rules before starting to play on our server: https://turtle-wow.org/#/rules
This will help prevent any misunderstandings in the future.
Thank you for your attention!

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