Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Matches
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Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Matches » Sun Sep 17, 2023 6:31 pm

I've been playing Vanilla private WoW for about eight years.

In my experience, over a number of servers, the greater the server population, the worse the ganking problem.

By ganking I mean to say being PvP killed by a player who you cannot possibly defeat (often level 60 rogues).

On world PvP servers, the justification is "this is a PvP server, get used to it", or "ganking is part of PvP".

On player-choice PvP servers, such as TWoW, the justification is "you turned PvP on, so it's your own fault - if you don't want ganking, turn PvP off".

Both of these reasons are identical to saying women who have been raped deserved it because they wore a short skirt.

Wanting to engage in world PvP is not the same as wanting to be engage in a hopeless, one sided fight with almost instant death.

Wanted to look sexy is not the same as wanting to be raped.

Wearing a short skirt does not justify rape.

When server populations are low, the likelihood of running into a ganker is necessarily low, and the occurrence of ganking is accordingly rare.

As server populations increase, the likelihood of running into a ganker increases.

When the server population is on the order of 10k players, you are always near a ganker.

I play with PvP disabled.

Every now and then, to my surprise, I find I have become PvP enabled - for example, it turns out if you've been in a BG, when you emerge, PvP is active.

What happens these days is that within two minutes of becoming PvP enabled, I've been ganked.

This is the natural consequence of the large player population.

I don't like it. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and it's happening enough that I am now starting to think about leaving the server. The displeasure of ganking is beginning to rival the pleasure of playing.

In TWoW, there is an aspect of this which is particularly harmful, which is gankers targeting HC players. I've seen level 30ish HC players in Stormwind being one-shot by level 60 rogues. I've asked a ganker why he did this, and the answer was "why not?"

I recall a player describing how he stopped playing I think it was Rebirth; he was afk in a town, another player got into a position where he could attack with spells without aggroing bouncers, and he sat there and watched this other guy keep firing spells until his character died. Not cool.

This behaviour is harmful to the server. People who do not gank will be encouraged to leave, people who do gank will be encouraged to stay. That's not healthy for a server.

I propose them a set of possible measures to manage this problem.

1. Only HC players can engage in PvP with HC players. That seems only fair; if you're HC, why should someone for whom death holds no threat be allowed to attack you? if someone wants to take out a HC, it should represent a real risk to them, because they are about to inflict a serious and irrepairable harm to the HC player.

2. Players can only start PvP with players who are yellow, orange or red to them. No starting PvP with greens or greys.

3. A party or raid has the level of the highest levelled member.

This is not a complete solution, but I hope that it will greatly reduce the frequency of ganking, to the extent it becomes tolerable.

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Darktifa
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Darktifa » Sun Sep 17, 2023 6:40 pm

You are comparing "raping"
which has long lasting psychological effects to a person
with ganking in a online game, where you can resurrect after 1min
NOT a good example

Also, who is mad enough to play Warmode while HC?
i tried it once, couldn't even reach Orgrimmar
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Sunsdude » Sun Sep 17, 2023 6:43 pm

Are you actually surprised that you can be ganked when you are pvp flagged? I'm sorry, what?

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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Pureavatar » Sun Sep 17, 2023 6:58 pm

Matches wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2023 6:31 pm
::snip::
On world PvP servers, the justification is "this is a PvP server, get used to it", or "ganking is part of PvP".

On player-choice PvP servers, such as TWoW, the justification is "you turned PvP on, so it's your own fault - if you don't want ganking, turn PvP off".

Both of these reasons are identical to saying women who have been raped deserved it because they wore a short skirt.
::snip::
Nope, not even close to identical. Go away.

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Gnomoerectus
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Gnomoerectus » Sun Sep 17, 2023 7:11 pm

Matches wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2023 6:31 pm
Both of these reasons are identical to saying women who have been raped deserved it because they wore a short skirt.
You need to take a break from the internet.

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Bigsmerf
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Bigsmerf » Sun Sep 17, 2023 7:31 pm

Gnomoerectus wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2023 7:11 pm
Matches wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2023 6:31 pm
Both of these reasons are identical to saying women who have been raped deserved it because they wore a short skirt.
You need to take a break from the internet.
I'd beg to differ. The internet needs a break from him, really.
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Eclipse369 » Sun Sep 17, 2023 8:32 pm

Turn off War Mode

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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Hotcoldman93 » Sun Sep 17, 2023 9:05 pm

Matches wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2023 6:31 pm
I've been playing Vanilla private WoW for about eight years.

In my experience, over a number of servers, the greater the server population, the worse the ganking problem.

By ganking I mean to say being PvP killed by a player who you cannot possibly defeat (often level 60 rogues).

On world PvP servers, the justification is "this is a PvP server, get used to it", or "ganking is part of PvP".

On player-choice PvP servers, such as TWoW, the justification is "you turned PvP on, so it's your own fault - if you don't want ganking, turn PvP off".

Both of these reasons are identical to saying women who have been raped deserved it because they wore a short skirt.
Kek

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Redmagejoe
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Redmagejoe » Sun Sep 17, 2023 9:07 pm

Close thread, or just let everyone belittle OP. Either way is the only reasonable outcomes for someone who actually used such a profoundly flawed foundation for their argument.

Matches
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Matches » Sun Sep 17, 2023 9:18 pm

There's yet to be a single actual counter argument - there has only been flat refusal.

Every poster has simply said "no", typically in terms which are emotive, indicating an emotional rejection of the argument - which to my eye rather hints at a player who objects because they gank, and so object to arguments against doing so.

In general, the quick replies to any thread are made without thought, are flat denials, sans justification, and are from those who wish to do that which is contested.

With a bit of time, more considered replies should begin to appear.

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Redmagejoe
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Redmagejoe » Sun Sep 17, 2023 9:45 pm

Matches wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2023 9:18 pm
words
Or, consider, that these discussions have been had time and again and people don't see the need to engage a 20th time with someone who is essentially canvasing for additional protections from their choice to accept being open to world PvP at any time in return for a 30% experience bonus. You gain a benefit in return for a trade-off. You being ganked by 60s is that trade-off.

If you'd like to canvas for changing warmode to have no PvE benefit whatsoever, then we're willing to have that discussion with you. If you like warmode as it is, then you cannot expect to be taken seriously when you ask for some sort of game mechanics to protect you from the consequences of your choices. Especially when you make such a disgustingly out-of-touch comparison as rape victim blaming.

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Gnomoerectus
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Gnomoerectus » Sun Sep 17, 2023 10:03 pm

Matches wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2023 9:18 pm
There's yet to be a single actual counter argument - there has only been flat refusal.

Every poster has simply said "no", typically in terms which are emotive, indicating an emotional rejection of the argument - which to my eye rather hints at a player who objects because they gank, and so object to arguments against doing so.

In general, the quick replies to any thread are made without thought, are flat denials, sans justification, and are from those who wish to do that which is contested.

With a bit of time, more considered replies should begin to appear.
More considered replies would have appeared if you hadn't compared killing people in a videogame with real life rape.
Seek professional help.

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Charanko
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Charanko » Sun Sep 17, 2023 10:34 pm

Ur on a pve server what are you on about bro
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Karrados
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Karrados » Mon Sep 18, 2023 12:57 am

Matches wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2023 9:18 pm
There's yet to be a single actual counter argument - there has only been flat refusal.

Every poster has simply said "no", typically in terms which are emotive, indicating an emotional rejection of the argument - which to my eye rather hints at a player who objects because they gank, and so object to arguments against doing so.

In general, the quick replies to any thread are made without thought, are flat denials, sans justification, and are from those who wish to do that which is contested.

With a bit of time, more considered replies should begin to appear.
Yeah no. You did not argue for anything here. You went on an emotional rant and the replies that you got were, after what exactly you wrote, more than you actually deserved.

You need to get the hell out and touch some grass. Comparing being flagged by accident and then being ganked to rape and how women dress, lol.

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Bigsmerf
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Bigsmerf » Mon Sep 18, 2023 1:04 am

"Hur dur just turn off warmode" is actually a MUCH more valid argument than you think, because, believe it or not, it DOES solve the problem. It's incredibly amusing the amount of people you could watch turn something as simple as an optional PvP flag with benefits into this whole moral dilemma that requires paragraphs worth of debate, when the problem itself could be solved by- you guessed it, just turning off warmode.

Quick edit: OMG MY 400TH POST SOMEONE CONGRATULATE ME

ANOTHER edit: THANKS KARRADOS
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Karrados » Mon Sep 18, 2023 1:04 am

Bigsmerf wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 1:04 am
"Hur dur just turn off warmode" is actually a MUCH more valid argument than you think, because, believe it or not, it DOES solve the problem. It's incredibly amusing the amount of people you could watch turn something as simple as an optional PvP flag with benefits into this whole moral dilemma that requires paragraphs worth of debate, when the problem itself could be solved by- you guessed it, just turning off warmode.
But muh 30% XP!

Edit: CONGRATULATIONS?

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Satirical
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Satirical » Mon Sep 18, 2023 1:22 am

I hope you get ganked more.

Draknathar
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Draknathar » Mon Sep 18, 2023 2:25 am

How spiteful the majority of the replies are... Only 2 people provided counter arguments. I agree OPs comparison was bad but the lot of you could have said that and provided a counter argument after or even just flat out say "no I disagree, I like it the way it is". Instead you told him to eat sh*t and die... tasteless.
I assume OP was talking about the new server having the possibility of being a PvP server and not just warmode which I also agree would be a lot better if in both of these, PvP was only available to people 2 levels higher or lower than you until level 59 and then everyone being fair game at 60, because I for one don't like being a level 30 and being 3 shot by a level 60 in a server with a 10k population. Thats just my opinion, but god forbid anything be changed on a vanilla+ server. Oh wait, a lot of things already have been.

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Karrados
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Karrados » Mon Sep 18, 2023 2:28 am

Draknathar wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 2:25 am
How spiteful the majority of the replies are... Only 2 people provided counter arguments. I agree OPs comparison was bad but the lot of you could have said that and provided a counter argument after or even just flat out say "no I disagree, I like it the way it is". Instead you told him to eat sh*t and die... tasteless.
I assume OP was talking about the new server having the possibility of being a PvP server and not just warmode which I also agree would be a lot better if in both of these, PvP was only available to people 2 levels higher or lower than you until level 59 and then everyone being fair game at 60, because I for one don't like being a level 30 and being 3 shot by a level 60 in a server with a 10k population. Thats just my opinion, but god forbid anything be changed on a vanilla+ server. Oh wait, a lot of things already have been.
Show me the reply where someone told him to "Eat shit and die". Go on, I am waiting.

People, including myself, told him to seek help and to maybe go outside and touch some grass for once. I don't see how that is even remotely close to what you claim.

Unless you are an alt account of him because just like him you went towards the extreme right away.

Draknathar
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Draknathar » Mon Sep 18, 2023 2:56 am

Karrados wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 2:28 am

Show me the reply where someone told him to "Eat shit and die". Go on, I am waiting.

People, including myself, told him to seek help and to maybe go outside and touch some grass for once. I don't see how that is even remotely close to what you claim.

Unless you are an alt account of him because just like him you went towards the extreme right away.

I didn't litterally mean that. Of course nobody litteraly said that word for word I just used that as a general statement on how everyone was replying because I'm not going to go quote everyone seperately. Maybe you would have picked up on that if you had any sort of social skills. Instead you come here replying to me wanting everything spelled out for you word for word. Fine, I can see that there are special people out there so here you go. "The responses that most replies were given to OP were not constructive of the main argument and were used in bad faith because there was no counter argument." Happy? And you still didn't provide a counter argument yourself.

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Satirical
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Satirical » Mon Sep 18, 2023 2:58 am

Draknathar wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 2:25 am
How spiteful the majority of the replies are... Only 2 people provided counter arguments. I agree OPs comparison was bad but the lot of you could have said that and provided a counter argument after or even just flat out say "no I disagree, I like it the way it is". Instead you told him to eat sh*t and die... tasteless.
I assume OP was talking about the new server having the possibility of being a PvP server and not just warmode which I also agree would be a lot better if in both of these, PvP was only available to people 2 levels higher or lower than you until level 59 and then everyone being fair game at 60, because I for one don't like being a level 30 and being 3 shot by a level 60 in a server with a 10k population. Thats just my opinion, but god forbid anything be changed on a vanilla+ server. Oh wait, a lot of things already have been.
To be fair it just sounds long winded about being mad about being ganked. If you turn PvP on you can't get mad some bored level 60 runs through you. Was a thing back in 2006, I see no reason to change it.

Also he compared being ganked to being raped so no one is gonna agree with him after that.

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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Fizzler » Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:06 am

Ganking is actually a beneficial force for the server. It reduces the queue times by reducing the amount of levelers online and increases amount of resources available in open world.

Also that it reduces world chat clutter when someone shames a 60 rogue for doing the right thing
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Karrados
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Karrados » Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:07 am

Draknathar wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 2:56 am
Karrados wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 2:28 am

Show me the reply where someone told him to "Eat shit and die". Go on, I am waiting.

People, including myself, told him to seek help and to maybe go outside and touch some grass for once. I don't see how that is even remotely close to what you claim.

Unless you are an alt account of him because just like him you went towards the extreme right away.

I didn't litterally mean that. Of course nobody litteraly said that word for word I just used that as a general statement on how everyone was replying because I'm not going to go quote everyone seperately. Maybe you would have picked up on that if you had any sort of social skills. Instead you come here replying to me wanting everything spelled out for you word for word. Fine, I can see that there are special people out there so here you go. "The responses that most replies were given to OP were not constructive of the main argument and were used in bad faith because there was no counter argument." Happy? And you still didn't provide a counter argument yourself.
I am not going to engage in a meaningful conversation with someone that compared being ganked in PVP in a VIDEO GAME to a Woman being raped because she decided to dress in a certain way. It is rather hilarious that you decided to claim that I have no social skills yet you defend someone that, if I have none, would have even worse Social Skills with how he went about his "Case".

But sure, go ahead and think whatever you want. The guy is a lunatic and needs to get a touch of reality if he takes being ganked as serious as his comparison. Quite frankly I still think that you are an Alt account of his and you are not exactly helping your own case here either.

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Kazgrim
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Kazgrim » Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:10 am

Man you made some good points until you compared rape to dying in a video game.
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Redmagejoe
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Redmagejoe » Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:10 am

Honestly OP should just be forum banned for 24h+ for even using such a disgustingly explicit and poorly-thought comparison.

Draknathar
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Draknathar » Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:12 am

Satirical wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 2:58 am

To be fair it just sounds long winded about being mad about being ganked. If you turn PvP on you can't get mad some bored level 60 runs through you. Was a thing back in 2006, I see no reason to change it.
But just because it was a thing in 2006 doesn't mean it needs to stay the way it is. This is a vanilla+ server after all and many things already have been changed. I also agree that it doesn't necessarily mean that it does need to change. Maybe my suggestion or OPs suggestion is worse than things are.
Satirical wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 2:58 am

Also he compared being ganked to being raped so no one is gonna agree with him after that.
I agreed with him on his argument. I also agree with the rest that the comparison he gave was terrible. I believe that people should be able to do both.

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Redmagejoe
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Redmagejoe » Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:15 am

Draknathar wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:12 am
I agreed with him on his argument. I also agree with the rest that the comparison he gave was terrible. I believe that people should be able to do both.
I know you're new to this entire debate and rhetoric thing, but what is happening here with everyone refusing to engage the OP/you is that once you resort to such a credibility-destroying statement, there is no longer any argument or discussion to be had. Because one can no longer expect any proper engagement or constructive rhetoric as logical fallacies have been employed and are likely to be employed again. No one should waste their energy on someone who has already forfeit the discussion.

That's how debate and social mores work.

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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Draknathar » Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:30 am

Karrados wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:07 am

I am not going to engage in a meaningful conversation with someone that compared being ganked in PVP in a VIDEO GAME to a Woman being raped because she decided to dress in a certain way. It is rather hilarious that you decided to claim that I have no social skills yet you defend someone that, if I have none, would have even worse Social Skills with how he went about his "Case".
I'm not defending him. I agree with his argument but not his comparison.

Karrados wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:07 am
But sure, go ahead and think whatever you want. The guy is a lunatic and needs to get a touch of reality if he takes being ganked as serious as his comparison. Quite frankly I still think that you are an Alt account of his and you are not exactly helping your own case here either.
I'm sure neither you or anyone else here has never done anything in a fit of rage. But as you said, go ahead and think whatever you want.

Draknathar
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Draknathar » Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:34 am

Redmagejoe wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:15 am


I know you're new to this entire debate and rhetoric thing, but what is happening here with everyone refusing to engage the OP/you is that once you resort to such a credibility-destroying statement, there is no longer any argument or discussion to be had. Because one can no longer expect any proper engagement or constructive rhetoric as logical fallacies have been employed and are likely to be employed again. No one should waste their energy on someone who has already forfeit the discussion.

That's how debate and social mores work.
So you're not going to ever engage with anyone that has done anything in a fit of rage? Just because someone makes a bad comparison doesn't mean that they're wrong no matter how much you disagree with that. You refusing to engage with the person is entirely different.

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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Redmagejoe » Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:35 am

Draknathar wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:30 am
I'm sure neither you or anyone else here has never done anything in a fit of rage.
If posting in a fit of rage results in you losing your ability to maintain any decorum whatsoever, then you are already not qualified to initiate a meaningful discussion and thus everyone's responses are wholly justified. Once again, quit trying to force people to have a logical discussion with a madman.

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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Draknathar » Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:46 am

Redmagejoe wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:35 am

If posting in a fit of rage results in you losing your ability to maintain any decorum whatsoever, then you are already not qualified to initiate a meaningful discussion and thus everyone's responses are wholly justified. Once again, quit trying to force people to have a logical discussion with a madman.
You yourself in your first reply to this post said "Close thread, or just let everyone belittle OP. Either way is the only reasonable outcomes for someone who actually used such a profoundly flawed foundation for their argument.".

Don't you dare tell OP that he made a bad argument and he needs to change. Just tell him that he's a lunatic and be done with it.

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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Redmagejoe » Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:54 am

Draknathar wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:46 am
You yourself in your first reply to this post said "Close thread, or just let everyone belittle OP. Either way is the only reasonable outcomes for someone who actually used such a profoundly flawed foundation for their argument.".
Your point? Yes, thank you for reiterating my statement that no one should be engaging with the OP. Is your purpose here to inflate your post count, or do you just think you're going somewhere with this?

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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Draknathar » Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:58 am

Redmagejoe wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:54 am

Your point? Yes, thank you for reiterating my statement that no one should be engaging with the OP. Is your purpose here to inflate your post count, or do you just think you're going somewhere with this?
Yes your first statement did not let OP know that he made a bad comparison only that he had a "profoundly flawed foundation for their argument".

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Redmagejoe
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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Redmagejoe » Mon Sep 18, 2023 4:03 am

It is not my responsibility to teach an assumed adult on the internet how to not immediately alienate an entire forum community by comparing a minor inconvenience in a god damn video game to rape victim blaming.

If you have nothing further to add, I will join the rest of the responders here in muting this thread.

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Re: Ganking is utterly pervasive, and harmful to the server. Proposed solutions.

Post by Draknathar » Mon Sep 18, 2023 4:09 am

Redmagejoe wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 4:03 am
It is not my responsibility to teach an assumed adult on the internet how to not immediately alienate an entire forum community by comparing a minor inconvenience in a god damn video game to rape victim blaiming.

If you have nothing further to add, I will join the rest of the responders in this thread in muting this thread.
You're right it's not but have some human decency in trying to change that person without going to extremes first. If you told him "Hey OP, the comparison you gave is nowhere near identical. I won't engage with you in a conversation while you have a stance like this." instead of "Close thread or let everyone belittle OP." I would have been on board. But not like this. But you're right, nobody needs to be a decent human to anybody else. Mute this thread and go on with your life.

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