The PVP Pala Problem

Denkai
Posts: 2

The PVP Pala Problem

Post by Denkai » Wed Dec 28, 2022 9:40 pm

Hi,

I love turtle and all that but on the pvp side of things the pala have buff have created a situation that is not balanced anymore. The main issue is a mix of the attack and bubble ability but also the sheer amount of paladins we face from horde side in batlegrounds.

Devs can look at the logs themselves to see the impact this is having so hopefully a future patch looks into things so that battlegrounds dont become only paladins vs nobody (since right now, it feels like re-rolling a pala is the way to go for pvp).

have fun flaming

Balake
Posts: 313

Re: The PVP Pala Problem

Post by Balake » Wed Dec 28, 2022 9:54 pm

Anyone who thinks paladins are not broken in pvp has never tried playing against one. They can bubble (become unkite-able, uncontrollable. Nothing you can do for all classes except rogue and feral who can run away). Stack five crusader strikes then holy strike + holy shock to oneshot anyone.

Solution is simple, make bubble do 50% reduction to damage dealt like in wotlk

Geojak
Posts: 761

Re: The PVP Pala Problem

Post by Geojak » Wed Dec 28, 2022 10:01 pm

There is already a multy page discussion about exactly this. Feel free to hop on the other threat too!

Chilubs
Posts: 1

Re: The PVP Pala Problem

Post by Chilubs » Wed Dec 28, 2022 10:10 pm

Hello,

I play a horde character and indeed can verify the paladins are very strong and popular. Horde are having an extremely tough time in the BG's. It is my experience that horde win very few games. i don't mind losing but horde should be able to win the odd game. Would like to see more balance to game play. The way it is now Alliance are getting there honor and gear much faster which makes BG's very tough for horde. Please consider more balance which will lead to more fun. In my opinion the way things are now is very demoralizing for the Horde. It was a little better before the patch.

Thanks

Geojak
Posts: 761

Re: The PVP Pala Problem

Post by Geojak » Wed Dec 28, 2022 10:18 pm

Is horde losing even wsg and ab now? Back when I ranked in spring we (allaince) lost all of those. At some point ppl stopped even trying when specific shamans/mages joined.

Is it that bad now for horde?

Or are we taling about av? Which allaicne sonehas always won on here+

Denkai
Posts: 2

Re: The PVP Pala Problem

Post by Denkai » Wed Dec 28, 2022 11:03 pm

Any battleground tbh. The issue is not about losing a battleground but that the buffs given to pala to help them become usefull in PVE made them OP in pvp. Join any battleground and see for yourself (provided you are not trolling and actually play horde).

Again, Dev can see the logs on win/loss and class balance for themselves so maybe they comment on this...

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Gantulga
Posts: 233

Re: The PVP Pala Problem

Post by Gantulga » Wed Dec 28, 2022 11:17 pm

This isn't exclusive to paladins as some other classes/specs also became overpowered in PvP due to custom buffs but pretty much half of alliance players are paladins.

Geojak
Posts: 761

Re: The PVP Pala Problem

Post by Geojak » Wed Dec 28, 2022 11:46 pm

As a paladin, I would not mind a holy strike nerf/rework. but we already discussed that in the other thread.

Crusader strike is also in an absurd state where it stacks 5x the effect of the pvp gloves and libram extra holy dmg. It's hundreds of bonus holy sp when stacked up.

I personally would Let judgement of crusader having the debuff again and restore classic in this regard so can't stack pvp gloved and libram 5x and only 1x as original. then make crusader strike have a 4s CD and give a 6% haste buff to the paladin that can stack 5x.

This would ensure paladins are less op in pvp as you can't quickly stack up Cs 5x for mega bonus sp nuke, also closer to vanilla, and actually buffed dmg in pve where you will have the 6x4=24s needed to go to full 30% haste. Note that warrior, shamans both have this haste as soon as they crit

The alternatives are just nerfing paladins straigth which negatively affects them in pve which will cause outcry and is imo avoidable

Turtle devs wanted crusader strike to be paladin sunder armor. It doesn't work. As a paladin you can't tab target as apply it to multiple mobs. You put judgment of wisdom up and Cs on that target only. Its not used like sunder armor when tanking at all

Kairion
Posts: 313

Re: The PVP Pala Problem

Post by Kairion » Thu Dec 29, 2022 1:56 am

Playing a paladin on turtle myself its definitely busted in pvp.

Holy Strike thanks to vengeange can double dip & hits insanely hard, in conjunction with lucky soc procs this can be in excess of 3k damage on a decently geared paladins which can't be blocked by armor. by just autoattacking. This exceeds even enhancement tripple windfury as this can at least be mitigated by armor.

Holy shock builds rival elemental for their burst potential while being the single best healer spec for pvp in anything but the most well coordinated groups.

This is paladin in a vacuum where he is already insanely strong, considering he can interrupt caps with bubble and be almost impossible to kill in a small scale skirmish you have a character that is perfect at defending bases in arathi, excellent at pressuring efc as well as keeping your own one alive and slippery and due to bubble shenannegans op in alterac too.

With the recent alterac changes Korrak is basically unkillabe. The only way you will ever get snowfall graveyard taken is by a paladin with bubble tanking while someone else taps the graveyard. Even better, Korrak will defend the now taped flag against contest by the other faction. It may as well be an alliance gy from the start of the game.

Paladin MUST be nerfed if the server wants to maintain pvp as part of the game.

This is btw the references other threat that has already talked trough most of the important aspects: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5066

Artofwill
Posts: 47

Re: The PVP Pala Problem

Post by Artofwill » Thu Dec 29, 2022 6:56 am

Nice to hear more people speaking out about the situation. In my experience, paladins alone can tilt the favor of every BG, especially AV of course. The reasons are pretty much already explained by many here as well as many in previous posts. So far I haven't seen any acknowledgement to the current issue from the devs, but I don't doubt that they are aware of it. I would love to hear from them as it's just some good will to show to the players that have to endure the problem right now.

Geojak
Posts: 761

Re: The PVP Pala Problem

Post by Geojak » Thu Dec 29, 2022 10:03 am

@Kairion you said:"
Holy shock builds rival elemental for their burst potential while being the single best healer spec for pvp in anything but the most well coordinated groups."

We even crushed the numbers. And we saw holy burst is clesly still a league below the all mighty ele shaman by atleast 1000 dmg potential . We don't have to do this again, but this statement is just not true...

Kairion
Posts: 313

Re: The PVP Pala Problem

Post by Kairion » Thu Dec 29, 2022 1:18 pm

Add 400 holy spelldmg from the bugged crusader strike stack and you end up with a difference of just 312 points in burst damage - i wasn't even considering that in the prior discussion to emphatize on the INSTANT aspect of the paladin combo - if we give him prep time (akin to how ele needs to cast in piece for 3.5 seconds) the paladin is indeed very close, so please don't twist my words against me

Geojak
Posts: 761

Re: The PVP Pala Problem

Post by Geojak » Thu Dec 29, 2022 1:22 pm

If you consider giving the paladin 5x gcd to stack in meele without cc the crusader strike. Then how is that even still burst. Might aswell compared a warrior stscking 5 times sunder and then go whirlwind and mortal strike + heroic strike all crit.

Kairion
Posts: 313

Re: The PVP Pala Problem

Post by Kairion » Thu Dec 29, 2022 9:09 pm

Even without prep time, if we assume the enemy is below 20% hp after your initial combo (wich isnt unlikely considering its over 4000 dmg already) you can easily add a hammer of wrath to end up with ~5500 dmg in 4seconds

while shaman ends with ~5200 dmg in 3.5 sconds.

That is WITHOUT crusader strike and all within the timeframe of a stun wich you also pack. I seriously doubt you ever where at the receiving end of such a combo if you think its fair for paladin to have this.

And i like to repeat myself. even not wearing healing gear but rather spelldmg gear you are still a massively potent healer in the same spec - requiring other people to come towards you if they want to deal with you. No need for gapclosers. Also, your damage is Holy, Holy is harder to resist than nature.

Xudo
Posts: 195

Re: The PVP Pala Problem

Post by Xudo » Sat Dec 31, 2022 11:36 am

I like the fact that some paladins argue that they are balanced because their burst is only 300 damage less than shamans-one.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant. Consumed by real life.
No 60 lvl character.
Applying enchant to item should increase required level
Change low level brackets
Add lvl requirement to bandages

Have fun not only at 60.

Karrados
Posts: 106

Re: The PVP Pala Problem

Post by Karrados » Sat Dec 31, 2022 5:05 pm

Xudo wrote:
Sat Dec 31, 2022 11:36 am
I like the fact that some paladins argue that they are balanced because their burst is only 300 damage less than shamans-one.
With one being specced Elemental (Damage Dealer) while the other is specced into Holy (Healer).

Ravenstone
Posts: 66

Re: The PVP Pala Problem

Post by Ravenstone » Sat Dec 31, 2022 5:39 pm

Inherently the most durable class in PvP at high level. Not so much a glass cannon as a divine bulldozer.

I've seen that the Devs are apparently aware of the problem, but would be nice to have a message on the forum of their acknowledgment.

Geojak
Posts: 761

Re: The PVP Pala Problem

Post by Geojak » Sat Dec 31, 2022 8:02 pm

Karrados wrote:
Sat Dec 31, 2022 5:05 pm
Xudo wrote:
Sat Dec 31, 2022 11:36 am
I like the fact that some paladins argue that they are balanced because their burst is only 300 damage less than shamans-one.
With one being specced Elemental (Damage Dealer) while the other is specced into Holy (Healer).
Holy isn't a heal specc. Holy shock isn't even a good heal skill. When you wear full sp you areva caster

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Ghola
Posts: 63

Re: The PVP Pala Problem

Post by Ghola » Sat Dec 31, 2022 8:50 pm

Geojak wrote:
Sat Dec 31, 2022 8:02 pm
Karrados wrote:
Sat Dec 31, 2022 5:05 pm
Xudo wrote:
Sat Dec 31, 2022 11:36 am
I like the fact that some paladins argue that they are balanced because their burst is only 300 damage less than shamans-one.
With one being specced Elemental (Damage Dealer) while the other is specced into Holy (Healer).
Holy isn't a heal specc. Holy shock isn't even a good heal skill. When you wear full sp you areva caster
damn so paladins are all druid specs at once

Geojak
Posts: 761

Re: The PVP Pala Problem

Post by Geojak » Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:36 pm

Not rly because you can't wesr tank gear, heal gear, caster gear etc. At the same time. You choose one.

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