Toxic PvP?

[Kalgert]

This may prove to be an unpopular opinion, but I'm going to say it anyway, because I believe that there is some truth behind it: Anytime you cater to PvP groups, or add features that further enable it, you are very much inviting the devil to your home (Or in this case: Players with potential malicious intentions to your server).

You may not agree, let alone like the sentiment, but I think it will be hard to deny that anytime a game, server or whatever decides to open up PvP to be another part of the "Main dish", things just slowly devolve into a mess, this thread showcasing perfectly what kind of mess.

I last played in August and it was pretty peaceful. Two weeks into coming back and I've found myself just leaving all the public chats because of how insufferable some people have been. Heck, I posted an opinion about Warmode and there were people telling me to be quiet, and some people saying they enjoy killing low level players because it's "Fun". Makes me dread what they're like when the opportunity to kill HC players arises...

The only place that I've seen to be properly friendly is the Hardcore guild. A fragmented click for certain, but what better way to bond with one another than have a common goal, that is being to survive? What is the "Common goal" that brings people together when it comes to PvP?
Go on, tell me, I'll wait, because I can safely tell you that there is NO such goal that brings people together, only drives a wedge between people. PvP communities aren't formed with a shared love and bond, but rather through hostilities and hatred. I know, it sounds corny to say it like that, but I can't think of a better way to describe it.

And it's a shame too. I was looking forward to getting deeply invested and maybe take part in some RP. Right now I see more buzz around PvP than RP, which as far as I can tell was one of the main selling points for this server.

[Kiwijello]

I was looking forward to getting deeply invested and maybe take part in some RP. Right now I see more buzz around PvP than RP, which as far as I can tell was one of the main selling points for this server.

I was loving the community and was about to setup a sub on paypal. Things changed so quicky, I am glad I didn't. I am going to wait and see what develops now. I don't want to have to turn off all the chats and segregate myself to avoid toxic people. If I wanted that, I could play retail or go outside and do real life ;) It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out.

[Mativh]

When I came up with this world pvp challenge, that became the war mode, I've written in detail about why it is a good idea, you should read it perhaps it'll expand your perspective on the matter, page 9:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2068&sid=2ace129488 ... &start=160

As I've thought, it increased the servers population, just like hardcore did, like always the the community will eventually weed out the limited amount of impolite/unfriendly people that are expected to appear with any influx of players, for every one of those there is 20 new wholesome turtles.
I understand that misclicking can be frustrating but with this new feature it is just something you'll have to learn, the same way you know not to misclick in other situations. Buff only people with blue name color if you wish to remain unflagged.
Generalizing, calling everyone who likes to do world pvp toxic, is actual toxic behavior, that kind of thinking is the root of most discrimination in real life.

About pvp zones - there could be instead of permanent pvp zones (which I don't like since it'd exclude non-pvp people especially hardcore ones) something like wintergrasp or tol barad kind of pvp events in zones (they even had a raid), but everyone could be there.
No new zones would even be neccesary just events happening one at a time throughout existing zones sometimes.
Or a Nagrand kind of situation where current towns could be conquered back and forth between factions.

Another option could be a diplomacy system not being just an opt-in feature but having couple levels that could increase over time or with quests or other requirement;
1 - can talk to opposite faction players,
2 - can group and trade,
3 - opposite faction npcs wont attack,
4 - wont get flagged for pvp in any zone, including capitals, can talk to opposite faction npcs
5 - can do opposite faction quests and gain reputation

Something similar was my initial thought btw about the warmode, where being flagged for pvp like on a pvp server would be the baseline but you could get diplomacy where you could work yourself up to be as if on a pve server and even to the point of the faction conflict practically disappearing for you and other like minded individuals, while the pvp minded ones would remain at the baseline fighting each other (but the suggestion above about the diplomacy levels is from the current game view where PvE is baseline with opt-in warmode).

[Bellybutton]

The fact that some of PvPers in this thread are now comparing this thread to real world discrimination/racism and pulling the tolerance card is one of the most ridiculous and disrespectful things I've ever read on this forum, both towards real-world people who actually get discriminated against, and to the original RP/PvE community on Turtle WoW.

People on Turtle are just concerned that the server is moving in a completely different direction from what it was built on in the first place. Initially Turtle WoW filled a niche that other servers couldn't and now that niche feels under attack by people who come here wanting to play a style that's the focus on so many other popular Vanilla servers and are openly asking for more and more changes to cater to them, all while the existing RP community continues to dwindle, leave, or get dwarfed by the same players who make up the majority of the community on nearly every other popular vanilla server.

[Valadorn]

So many Toxic PvE people here, yet they dont even notice how toxic they are :(

Let's ban everyone that dares even slightly enjoy PvP, and then do the Surprised Pikachu face when there wont be enough ppl left for Dungeons. :)

[Afaslizo]

So many Toxic PvE people here, yet they dont even notice how toxic they are :(

Let's ban everyone that dares even slightly enjoy PvP, and then do the Surprised Pikachu face when there wont be enough ppl left for Dungeons. :)

Nobody can't be more toxic than the person constantly trying to deride other people's comments, failing to really confronting them in detail and campaigning to ridicule them. Read: You.

[Kalgert]

I was loving the community and was about to setup a sub on paypal. Things changed so quicky, I am glad I didn't. I am going to wait and see what develops now. I don't want to have to turn off all the chats and segregate myself to avoid toxic people. If I wanted that, I could play retail or go outside and do real life ;) It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out.

Honestly I feel a bit bad not hanging around the server longer. I'm certainly enjoying the custom-made content as there's definitely a lot of heart put into it, and I like how some of the quests added get to give some mobs more purpose/flesh out the world a bit more.

The fact that some of PvPers in this thread are now comparing this thread to real world discrimination/racism and pulling the tolerance card is one of the most ridiculous and disrespectful things I've ever read on this forum, both towards real-world people who actually get discriminated against, and to the original RP/PvE community on Turtle WoW.

People on Turtle are just concerned that the server is moving in a completely different direction from what it was built on in the first place. Initially Turtle WoW filled a niche that other servers couldn't and now that niche feels under attack by people who come here wanting to play a style that's the focus on so many other popular Vanilla servers and are openly asking for more and more changes to cater to them, all while the existing RP community continues to dwindle, leave, or get dwarfed by the same players who make up the majority of the community on nearly every other popular vanilla server.

Yes, exactly! The reason I'm so critical, perhaps a bit "Mean" towards PvP players is because I know from prior experience how it's like when a game caters fully towards them as a demographic. It doesn't usually end well when they become the majority and then end up essentially "Dictating" what ought to be added to a game.

A good example would be Sea of Thieves and just how that game's community is like. A game that probably has one of the worst gaming communities in existence. And honestly reading some of the discussion points levied by some of the more PvP-minded players here, I just don't feel convinced that they're arguing in good faith.

As I've thought, it increased the servers population, just like hardcore did, like always the the community will eventually weed out the limited amount of impolite/unfriendly people that are expected to appear with any influx of players, for every one of those there is 20 new wholesome turtles.
I understand that misclicking can be frustrating but with this new feature it is just something you'll have to learn, the same way you know not to misclick in other situations. Buff only people with blue name color if you wish to remain unflagged.
Generalizing, calling everyone who likes to do world pvp toxic, is actual toxic behavior, that kind of thinking is the root of most discrimination in real life.

Sometimes, the saying "Quality over quantity" works quite well. Sometimes a more peaceful enviroment with not much talking is a lot better than a very active enviroment where people seem to outright hate each other half the time, and I really think that saying "Just be more careful m8 and don't buff greens" really takes away the whole co-operation aspect of it all.
"Hey, can you throw me an intellect buff?" "Sorry, can't, you're flagged for PvP and I don't want to get flagged with that high level character following me around."
And please, don't act as if people having concerns over PvP players having the potential to erode the quality of a server as some kind of real life discrimination association. It's a disingenuous comparison and I know that you know this.

[Kalgert]

So many Toxic PvE people here, yet they dont even notice how toxic they are :(

Let's ban everyone that dares even slightly enjoy PvP, and then do the Surprised Pikachu face when there wont be enough ppl left for Dungeons. :)

Honestly I wouldn't have such a problem if there'd be a lack of people to do dungeons with. Most of my enjoyment comes from leveling in the world itself. Besides, I don't believe that this is an actual concern that you have, seeing what your post history's been like in this thread.

[Stoogeville]

So many Toxic PvE people here, yet they dont even notice how toxic they are :(

Let's ban everyone that dares even slightly enjoy PvP, and then do the Surprised Pikachu face when there wont be enough ppl left for Dungeons. :)

You seem to be pretty tone-deaf on this. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that PvPers are the crux when it comes to populating PvE content; nor that there were always enough people for dungeons even before Warmode. I think, honestly, you're just trying to ghoulify the point so that you feel less bad that PvP players are finally being called out. Turtle survived for a long time before the current wave of PvP refugees - they're not the solution, they are the problem.


I was there when the discussions about Warmode first started going around. Back then, I was in support of them; which I still am, in theory, if it is done correctly.
0

What has happened, however, as I'm sure has been explained to death in this thread: The devs have used PvE rewards to encourage PvP. So, rather than getting Warmode because they want to engage in PvP, people are getting it purely for the XP bonus, even if they personally do not like to PvP (because, it's a biiiiig bonus); and in turn, toxic players are capitalizing on it by ganking them, and acting snide to prove a point. PvP should be about encouraging PvP players to positively engage in PvP, while encouraging PvE players to do their thing without muddying the waters - and as such, the rewards (and mechanisms) of Warmode are desperately in need of fixing. It's not enough just to deride somebody by the schizophrenic argumens of saying, "Get Warmode because the XP boost is too good!", and then saying, "If you didn't want to get ganked, don't get warmode!". Once again, PvP should be about encouraging positive, balanced PvP in the wilds; not gank paranoia.

Ultimately, if this can't be done (which it absolutely can), I think that Warmode should be removed. PvP players seem to say things like, "Well, anecdotally, I never got ganked!"; but, obviously, these are PvP players. They don't play like the rest of the Turtle crowd; which is, socially, and without PvP anxiety. They don't visit the meetups at Tents, they don't run around neutral hubs to chat to players; and ultimately, their attitude doesn't fit with the server. Turtle has always been a RP-PvE server. I'm sure that PvPers enjoy Turtle for all the great things it has, and don't want to simply be kicked back into the toxicity of open-PvP servers; but, sadly, we've got to take care of our community first, and if PvP players are killing the vibe, they have no right to run around making arrogant, hackneyed arguments to support what is clearly a poorly-instituted game mechanic. In the end, there's no other server like Turtle, and there's a reason. Let's not forget it.


I'm honestly not sure how the developers settled on the current confuguration for Warmode. I love the devs' efforts, but I've noticed a very strong trend that devs on Turtle lack foresight. They'll make quick, dirty changes that seem (and often are) pretty cool on the surface level; but end up having more ramifications than boons.

For instance, look at the current issue with classes: Many people have stated a strong eagerness for Undead Paladins and Dwarf Shamans. However, this is no longer possible, because the class limit on both races has been maxed out. Somebody decided that it would be cool to have Undead Hunters; and clearly without thinking it through, they made the change, and forever locked Turtle into its current paradigm. It could be argued that faction-restrictions like that are a trait of vanilla; but it's not 2005 anymore, and the idea of faction-specific classes no longer has the same whimsy and excitement as it did twenty years ago (now that everybody knows classes inside-out).

[Dwstar]

Disclaimer: i am not any sort of "PVP enjoyer". And i am not playing with warmode. Just a little observation here.
1. While reading through the discussion i have seen many times one statement in different forms: "warmode is luring PVE players to turn on PVP". I am sorry, what? Are they 5 years old and don't understand a thing? Are they pushed there by force? Are they somehow discriminated by not turning it on? No, they don't. This server has blizzlike xp rate, and when you are diving in you are already signed to have this x1 rate. How are you being discriminated by not having x1.3? I don't get it. We already have insane stacking tent rest if you for some strange reason need to level up faster (why? if you need, you have 100500 fun servers over the internet with rates like x100 or something...). Just don't pick up warmode and forget about it forever. This server is called turtle wow by reason.
2. Some people talk about RP, and then instantly switch to "walking around, talking with other faction peacefully" as a synonim to RP. Ok, Azeroth is a very big place and there definitely must be tauren and gnomes and... murlocs who don't want to fight each other. We see them everywhere as neutral NPCs. But in general we have constant tension between big factions. Faction cooperation existed in warcraft history, but at this point (end of Classic story line) we are at some sort of cold war. Just count people who activated warmode as members of minor factions, which want the war to continue. Nothing here breaks RP. What is really breaking RP is your idea that everyone must be forced to live in peace by some invisible godlike entity (GMs/devs).
To the real downsides of warmode - in actual form it is very primitive. And i'd remove xp bonus (as it upsets so many people for some reason) and maybe add some other, focused on pvp versus other warmode enabled players. Maybe alternative pvp titles or something.
Didn't mean to insult anyone, again.

[Valadorn]

So many Toxic PvE people here, yet they dont even notice how toxic they are :(

Let's ban everyone that dares even slightly enjoy PvP, and then do the Surprised Pikachu face when there wont be enough ppl left for Dungeons. :)

You seem to be pretty tone-deaf on this. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that PvPers are the crux when it comes to populating PvE content; nor that there were always enough people for dungeons even before Warmode. I think, honestly, you're just trying to ghoulify the point so that you feel less bad that PvP players are finally being called out. Turtle survived for a long time before the current wave of PvP refugees - they're not the solution, they are the problem.


I was there when the discussions about Warmode first started going around. Back then, I was in support of them; which I still am, in theory, if it is done correctly.
0

What has happened, however, as I'm sure has been explained to death in this thread: The devs have used PvE rewards to encourage PvP. So, rather than getting Warmode because they want to engage in PvP, people are getting it purely for the XP bonus, even if they personally do not like to PvP (because, it's a biiiiig bonus); and in turn, toxic players are capitalizing on it by ganking them, and acting snide to prove a point. PvP should be about encouraging PvP players to positively engage in PvP, while encouraging PvE players to do their thing without muddying the waters - and as such, the rewards (and mechanisms) of Warmode are desperately in need of fixing. It's not enough just to deride somebody by the schizophrenic argumens of saying, "Get Warmode because the XP boost is too good!", and then saying, "If you didn't want to get ganked, don't get warmode!". Once again, PvP should be about encouraging positive, balanced PvP in the wilds; not gank paranoia.

Ultimately, if this can't be done (which it absolutely can), I think that Warmode should be removed. PvP players seem to say things like, "Well, anecdotally, I never got ganked!"; but, obviously, these are PvP players. They don't play like the rest of the Turtle crowd; which is, socially, and without PvP anxiety. They don't visit the meetups at Tents, they don't run around neutral hubs to chat to players; and ultimately, their attitude doesn't fit with the server. Turtle has always been a RP-PvE server. I'm sure that PvPers enjoy Turtle for all the great things it has, and don't want to simply be kicked back into the toxicity of open-PvP servers; but, sadly, we've got to take care of our community first, and if PvP players are killing the vibe, they have no right to run around making arrogant, hackneyed arguments to support what is clearly a poorly-instituted game mechanic. In the end, there's no other server like Turtle, and there's a reason. Let's not forget it.


I'm honestly not sure how the developers settled on the current confuguration for Warmode. I love the devs' efforts, but I've noticed a very strong trend that devs on Turtle lack foresight. They'll make quick, dirty changes that seem (and often are) pretty cool on the surface level; but end up having more ramifications than boons.

For instance, look at the current issue with classes: Many people have stated a strong eagerness for Undead Paladins and Dwarf Shamans. However, this is no longer possible, because the class limit on both races has been maxed out. Somebody decided that it would be cool to have Undead Hunters; and clearly without thinking it through, they made the change, and forever locked Turtle into its current paradigm. It could be argued that faction-restrictions like that are a trait of vanilla; but it's not 2005 anymore, and the idea of faction-specific classes no longer has the same whimsy and excitement as it did twenty years ago (now that everybody knows classes inside-out).

Now, I ask you to read your post, very slowly and I am sure you will find the problem .

I have, honestly no idea why you think that Experience is not needed for PvP players xD. And I still dont understand what the problem with an Opt-in PvP mode is ?

[Valadorn]

Disclaimer: i am not any sort of "PVP enjoyer". And i am not playing with warmode. Just a little observation here.
1. While reading through the discussion i have seen many times one statement in different forms: "warmode is luring PVE players to turn on PVP". I am sorry, what? Are they 5 years old and don't understand a thing? Are they pushed there by force? Are they somehow discriminated by not turning it on? No, they don't. This server has blizzlike xp rate, and when you are diving in you are already signed to have this x1 rate. How are you being discriminated by not having x1.3? I don't get it. We already have insane stacking tent rest if you for some strange reason need to level up faster (why? if you need, you have 100500 fun servers over the internet with rates like x100 or something...). Just don't pick up warmode and forget about it forever. This server is called turtle wow by reason.
2. Some people talk about RP, and then instantly switch to "walking around, talking with other faction peacefully" as a synonim to RP. Ok, Azeroth is a very big place and there definitely must be tauren and gnomes and... murlocs who don't want to fight each other. We see them everywhere as neutral NPCs. But in general we have constant tension between big factions. Faction cooperation existed in warcraft history, but at this point (end of Classic story line) we are at some sort of cold war. Just count people who activated warmode as members of minor factions, which want the war to continue. Nothing here breaks RP. What is really breaking RP is your idea that everyone must be forced to live in peace by some invisible godlike entity (GMs/devs).
To the real downsides of warmode - in actual form it is very primitive. And i'd remove xp bonus (as it upsets so many people for some reason) and maybe add some other, focused on pvp versus other warmode enabled players. Maybe alternative pvp titles or something.
Didn't mean to insult anyone, again.

Thank you for the post, id just like to mention that the experience is added, as a way to balance out the time you spend corpse running after getting killed by another players, this is behind the reason of the 30% exp, and if you take it into consideration that Warmode players will die alot more, I think it is pretty fair. I can't think of a single thing that would benefit PvP players only, without affecting and upsetting PvE players :s

[Dwstar]

Disclaimer: i am not any sort of "PVP enjoyer". And i am not playing with warmode. Just a little observation here.
1. While reading through the discussion i have seen many times one statement in different forms: "warmode is luring PVE players to turn on PVP". I am sorry, what? Are they 5 years old and don't understand a thing? Are they pushed there by force? Are they somehow discriminated by not turning it on? No, they don't. This server has blizzlike xp rate, and when you are diving in you are already signed to have this x1 rate. How are you being discriminated by not having x1.3? I don't get it. We already have insane stacking tent rest if you for some strange reason need to level up faster (why? if you need, you have 100500 fun servers over the internet with rates like x100 or something...). Just don't pick up warmode and forget about it forever. This server is called turtle wow by reason.
2. Some people talk about RP, and then instantly switch to "walking around, talking with other faction peacefully" as a synonim to RP. Ok, Azeroth is a very big place and there definitely must be tauren and gnomes and... murlocs who don't want to fight each other. We see them everywhere as neutral NPCs. But in general we have constant tension between big factions. Faction cooperation existed in warcraft history, but at this point (end of Classic story line) we are at some sort of cold war. Just count people who activated warmode as members of minor factions, which want the war to continue. Nothing here breaks RP. What is really breaking RP is your idea that everyone must be forced to live in peace by some invisible godlike entity (GMs/devs).
To the real downsides of warmode - in actual form it is very primitive. And i'd remove xp bonus (as it upsets so many people for some reason) and maybe add some other, focused on pvp versus other warmode enabled players. Maybe alternative pvp titles or something.
Didn't mean to insult anyone, again.

Thank you for the post, id just like to mention that the experience is added, as a way to balance out the time you spend corpse running after getting killed by another players, this is behind the reason of the 30% exp, and if you take it into consideration that Warmode players will die alot more, I think it is pretty fair. I can't think of a single thing that would benefit PvP players only, without affecting and upsetting PvE players :s

I totally agree that small exp bonus is good compensation for the risks. Just thought if it is so insulting for some people, maybe it could be changed to something else.
As i mentioned, it may be alternate accolade of pvp ranks with different titles. Something like "brute", "warmonger", etc. (horde version) With its own visual set of pvp items. I have no idea about how difficult is it to implement such feature.
Maybe also some quests available only for warmode, rewarding honor points and focusing on killing other warmode enabled players. It will draw the focus of this mode to challenging equal opponents.

[Leoff]

I’d figure pvpers would enjoy 30% more honor than exp from warmode. Bg’s don’t happen that often so ranking is a bit of a chore, imo more honor could be a nice offset. At least from the pvp disc I never heard players asking to level faster.

[Valadorn]

You dont need honor untill level 60 guys :( , they already added Exp from battlegrounds, which Warmode gives an addition 30% of. Which is pretty nice, but ppl still dont join :(

[Geojak]

30% bonus honor for warmode would make warmode almost mandatory to compete in rank 14 grind since you are competing with other players, even pve players that rank.

I would rather not see that changed.

a 30% more pvp faction reputation, that would be better.

I think the 30% XP boost is good since it reflects what modern age games want, see seasons of mastery and its good to attracts some new blood too even if we old players would rather do the opposite with turtle Mode leveling, it doesn't mean we can appeal to both to attract more players.


Eventually we need a reason for players to stick with warmode.
I would say a new warmode reputation Grind.each World pvp non grey kill gives 1 rep with some companion pet, mount, tabard as rewards. With a vendor forctheie reputations inside the pvp hall

[Mativh]

I think warmode shouldn't have a reward, or it should be something that doesn't give gameplay advantage (unless it'd be some custom content in the future strictly related to pvp activity).
Being able to properly do world pvp during warmode is the reward itself.
Many consider the faction conflict as a fundamental part of the warcraft franchise, early wow and an important part of RPing and immersion. (as we are roleplaying as a member of one of the two factions that are in conflict, the opposite faction NPCs attack us and diplomacy glyph is required for that reason; and faction conflict is an integral part of wow lore). Again, warmode isn't mandatory, it is optional.

Also since at the moment warmode does have xp reward, it is quite pathetic to accept warmode, a mode ment for people that enjoy wpvp, only in order to get the xp reward, and then whine about being flagged for pvp while leveling, then demand the mode to be removed... I agree that the reward is unnecesary though.

Warmode doesn't force anyone to do pvp, it is the perfect solution that allows people to do world pvp while allowing those that dont want to take part to abstain from it. It increased the population which means more revenue for the turtle wow devs and more resources to make awesome custom content.

Some people here clearly demostrate that they aren't PvE players as they call themselves but just anti-pvp players with inflated tribal instincts, this "us vs them" mentality is ridiculous. Some players like doing only PvE, some like only PvP, some like only RPing, leveling etc, most like a combination of these things, in any group of wow players you will find decent and indecent people.

"I came to turtle wow to escape pvp servers"... turtle wow is a PvE server, you aren't forced to sign up for battlegrounds nor join warmode world pvp nor to duel etc. You can talk group and trade with the opposite faction and never take part in any PvP activity. But just because you don't like it, don't try to forbid others from it, or to be hostile and create a division in the turtle community. You aren't "PvE" players, you are anti-PvP players, you are calling people toxic that do everything you do plus PvP, even though they aren't doing anything to you. The server won't change, everyone who is here obviously likes the way the server is, they just also enjoy world PvP, so enough with this hysterical tribal hostility.

[Geojak]

The problem are people that clearly don't like world pvp server chossing to play warmode for the wrong reasons (XP bonus) and then whine about getting killed...

XP bonus should be replaced by World pvp kill counter and related rewards

[Merikkinon]

The fact that some of PvPers in this thread are now comparing this thread to real world discrimination/racism and pulling the tolerance card is one of the most ridiculous and disrespectful things I've ever read on this forum, both towards real-world people who actually get discriminated against, and to the original RP/PvE community on Turtle WoW.

I can understand the comparison as a metaphor is repulsive.

However, pointing out the overgeneralization which is entirely dichotomous thinking and judgmental in nature, for either side, is not.

Welcome to the nature of the modern world and self-righteousness, and the condemnation of any who oppose one's own viewpoints.

[Allwynd01]

So you make a really interesting point. The future could very well be dual servers (RP/PVE and PVP). IF the dev team could manage the server a bit better. IF the community could manage to not implode. It would pull in more and more players.

Opening a separate server for just PvP will only segregate the small population even further, this is not in the interest of anyone.

The only solution is to contain PvP in battlegrounds an instanced arena.

I guess I had to say it explicitly for some to understand, but the idea of 'more and more players' would indicate the server is loaded up with more than enough players to do what I mention.

Second, to your comment that 'the only solution' - dude, that is just YOUR opinion. Not a fact.

You seem very angry about something, you should chill out.

The server doesn't have this amount of players for your suggestion to work, so what's the point in suggesting something that isn't viable at the moment? There is no data that supports whether the server population will increase, decrease or remain the same.

When enough people complain about PvP being a problem, there is an obvious reason for it. Before PvP, 99% of the threads on the forums were inquiries on the new content or suggestions for new content. Now it's complaints about PvP, ganking and toxicity... I wonder where that came from and what caused it? It's the greatest unsolved mystery of all time.

[Stoogeville]

So many Toxic PvE people here, yet they dont even notice how toxic they are :(

Let's ban everyone that dares even slightly enjoy PvP, and then do the Surprised Pikachu face when there wont be enough ppl left for Dungeons. :)

You seem to be pretty tone-deaf on this. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that PvPers are the crux when it comes to populating PvE content; nor that there were always enough people for dungeons even before Warmode. I think, honestly, you're just trying to ghoulify the point so that you feel less bad that PvP players are finally being called out. Turtle survived for a long time before the current wave of PvP refugees - they're not the solution, they are the problem.


I was there when the discussions about Warmode first started going around. Back then, I was in support of them; which I still am, in theory, if it is done correctly.
0

What has happened, however, as I'm sure has been explained to death in this thread: The devs have used PvE rewards to encourage PvP. So, rather than getting Warmode because they want to engage in PvP, people are getting it purely for the XP bonus, even if they personally do not like to PvP (because, it's a biiiiig bonus); and in turn, toxic players are capitalizing on it by ganking them, and acting snide to prove a point. PvP should be about encouraging PvP players to positively engage in PvP, while encouraging PvE players to do their thing without muddying the waters - and as such, the rewards (and mechanisms) of Warmode are desperately in need of fixing. It's not enough just to deride somebody by the schizophrenic argumens of saying, "Get Warmode because the XP boost is too good!", and then saying, "If you didn't want to get ganked, don't get warmode!". Once again, PvP should be about encouraging positive, balanced PvP in the wilds; not gank paranoia.

Ultimately, if this can't be done (which it absolutely can), I think that Warmode should be removed. PvP players seem to say things like, "Well, anecdotally, I never got ganked!"; but, obviously, these are PvP players. They don't play like the rest of the Turtle crowd; which is, socially, and without PvP anxiety. They don't visit the meetups at Tents, they don't run around neutral hubs to chat to players; and ultimately, their attitude doesn't fit with the server. Turtle has always been a RP-PvE server. I'm sure that PvPers enjoy Turtle for all the great things it has, and don't want to simply be kicked back into the toxicity of open-PvP servers; but, sadly, we've got to take care of our community first, and if PvP players are killing the vibe, they have no right to run around making arrogant, hackneyed arguments to support what is clearly a poorly-instituted game mechanic. In the end, there's no other server like Turtle, and there's a reason. Let's not forget it.


I'm honestly not sure how the developers settled on the current confuguration for Warmode. I love the devs' efforts, but I've noticed a very strong trend that devs on Turtle lack foresight. They'll make quick, dirty changes that seem (and often are) pretty cool on the surface level; but end up having more ramifications than boons.

For instance, look at the current issue with classes: Many people have stated a strong eagerness for Undead Paladins and Dwarf Shamans. However, this is no longer possible, because the class limit on both races has been maxed out. Somebody decided that it would be cool to have Undead Hunters; and clearly without thinking it through, they made the change, and forever locked Turtle into its current paradigm. It could be argued that faction-restrictions like that are a trait of vanilla; but it's not 2005 anymore, and the idea of faction-specific classes no longer has the same whimsy and excitement as it did twenty years ago (now that everybody knows classes inside-out).

Now, I ask you to read your post, very slowly and I am sure you will find the problem .

I have, honestly no idea why you think that Experience is not needed for PvP players xD. And I still dont understand what the problem with an Opt-in PvP mode is ?

I reckon you're the one who should be reading my post, very slowly. I'm willing to bet you briefly glanced at it, though, so I shouldn't be too greedy.

Opening a separate server for just PvP will only segregate the small population even further, this is not in the interest of anyone.

The only solution is to contain PvP in battlegrounds an instanced arena.

I guess I had to say it explicitly for some to understand, but the idea of 'more and more players' would indicate the server is loaded up with more than enough players to do what I mention.

Second, to your comment that 'the only solution' - dude, that is just YOUR opinion. Not a fact.

You seem very angry about something, you should chill out.

The server doesn't have this amount of players for your suggestion to work, so what's the point in suggesting something that isn't viable at the moment? There is no data that supports whether the server population will increase, decrease or remain the same.

When enough people complain about PvP being a problem, there is an obvious reason for it. Before PvP, 99% of the threads on the forums were inquiries on the new content or suggestions for new content. Now it's complaints about PvP, ganking and toxicity... I wonder where that came from and what caused it? It's the greatest unsolved mystery of all time.

Nobody wants to feel like they're the arsehole making everything worse. Which is absolutely fair enough. People love Turtle for Turtle, but they also have to respect that Turtle is Turtle for a reason. And that reason, by and large, is absent of PvP.

I do genuinely believe there is a symbiosis that we could achieve here, without any huge/risky efforts, as long as we stick close to our roots. Instances are definitely not the "only option" - they never were! PvP players are right: PvP was never the pariah of Turtle WoW, but some poor design choices have made it so.

[Stoogeville]

I think warmode shouldn't have a reward, or it should be something that doesn't give gameplay advantage (unless it'd be some custom content in the future strictly related to pvp activity).
Being able to properly do world pvp during warmode is the reward itself.
Many consider the faction conflict as a fundamental part of the warcraft franchise, early wow and an important part of RPing and immersion. (as we are roleplaying as a member of one of the two factions that are in conflict, the opposite faction NPCs attack us and diplomacy glyph is required for that reason; and faction conflict is an integral part of wow lore). Again, warmode isn't mandatory, it is optional.

Also since at the moment warmode does have xp reward, it is quite pathetic to accept warmode, a mode ment for people that enjoy wpvp, only in order to get the xp reward, and then whine about being flagged for pvp while leveling, then demand the mode to be removed... I agree that the reward is unnecesary though.

Warmode doesn't force anyone to do pvp, it is the perfect solution that allows people to do world pvp while allowing those that dont want to take part to abstain from it. It increased the population which means more revenue for the turtle wow devs and more resources to make awesome custom content.

Some people here clearly demostrate that they aren't PvE players as they call themselves but just anti-pvp players with inflated tribal instincts, this "us vs them" mentality is ridiculous. Some players like doing only PvE, some like only PvP, some like only RPing, leveling etc, most like a combination of these things, in any group of wow players you will find decent and indecent people.

"I came to turtle wow to escape pvp servers"... turtle wow is a PvE server, you aren't forced to sign up for battlegrounds nor join warmode world pvp nor to duel etc. You can talk group and trade with the opposite faction and never take part in any PvP activity. But just because you don't like it, don't try to forbid others from it, or to be hostile and create a division in the turtle community. You aren't "PvE" players, you are anti-PvP players, you are calling people toxic that do everything you do plus PvP, even though they aren't doing anything to you. The server won't change, everyone who is here obviously likes the way the server is, they just also enjoy world PvP, so enough with this hysterical tribal hostility.

Like, sure, these are all valid points - but they're also fundamental arguments. For instance, PvP didn't "increase the population" - it catered to an influx. Nobody is forced to PvP - but now, everybody is now forced to play in an PvP environment. People didn't suddenly adopt a tribal stance against PvPers - they got from seeing PvP players taunting and teasing, bragging about ganks, spouting that inane "get gud" bullshit, and generally acting terribly smug in world chat and elsewhere. This last thing has never been an attitude that's been cool on Turtle.

In the end, PvP abstinence (as with any form of abstinence) is not a solution. "Just don't do it" won't bring back the classic Gurubashi chill spot.

[Valadorn]

So, let's agree that the problem is not PvP itself, the problem is some people ?

Cuz thats exactly what I have been trying to say.

[Merikkinon]

You seem very angry about something, you should chill out.

Quite possibly that you feel entitled to tell people 'how it is' and 'what they need to do'.

When enough people complain about PvP being a problem, there is an obvious reason for it. Before PvP, 99% of the threads on the forums were inquiries on the new content or suggestions for new content. Now it's complaints about PvP, ganking and toxicity... I wonder where that came from and what caused it? It's the greatest unsolved mystery of all time.

Basically the vast majority of posts are in this thread. Most threads are about other things. The vitriol is in this thread, the absolutes and 'telling it like it is' is in this thread.


Agree with Valadorn though - the problem is with people, not the concept of PvP.

[Allwynd01]

Quite possibly that you feel entitled to tell people 'how it is' and 'what they need to do'.

I say what I think, it doesn't mean the developers will take it into consideration and I don't care, so being free to say what I think is enough for me. What happens after that is up to them with the interest of their server's well-being as a priority.

Agree with Valadorn though - the problem is with people, not the concept of PvP.

The developers of this server initially started out with no PvP in question, when their server started to grow in popularity and size, they also looked into options for PvP. These options don't appear to be making the majority of the populace happy. And if people are the problem, then they should be treated as such, but people are what is the difference from animals. People have the ability to control their urges. If people can't do that, they are no different from monkeys. And if monkeys are disrupting the server, monkeys should be locked in a cage, where they belong. If you don't agree with this, then you should take it up to the server administrators and discuss this matter with them privately.

[Allwynd01]

Nobody wants to feel like they're the arsehole making everything worse. Which is absolutely fair enough. People love Turtle for Turtle, but they also have to respect that Turtle is Turtle for a reason. And that reason, by and large, is absent of PvP.

I do genuinely believe there is a symbiosis that we could achieve here, without any huge/risky efforts, as long as we stick close to our roots. Instances are definitely not the "only option" - they never were! PvP players are right: PvP was never the pariah of Turtle WoW, but some poor design choices have made it so.

I was questing in The Barrens a few days ago as a High Elf Hunter just to get that Horde feel while not being Horde myself. At one point I saw a treasure chest, and while I was fighting a bunch of enemies to get to it, an Orc Shaman or whatever helped me beat them, even though I could've handled them myself, I could've looted that chest, but I decided to say nothing and move on, leaving the chest to my savior. The symbiosis you speak of is the players acting as human beings in every occasion. If someone is a 50 year old virgin with a micropenis and they feel they should make everyone bad by killing them just so they, themselves can feel good about themselves, then they are facing a personality problem that the game can't solve for them other than barring them from ruining other people's good time.

[Stoogeville]

Nobody wants to feel like they're the arsehole making everything worse. Which is absolutely fair enough. People love Turtle for Turtle, but they also have to respect that Turtle is Turtle for a reason. And that reason, by and large, is absent of PvP.

I do genuinely believe there is a symbiosis that we could achieve here, without any huge/risky efforts, as long as we stick close to our roots. Instances are definitely not the "only option" - they never were! PvP players are right: PvP was never the pariah of Turtle WoW, but some poor design choices have made it so.

I was questing in The Barrens a few days ago as a High Elf Hunter just to get that Horde feel while not being Horde myself. At one point I saw a treasure chest, and while I was fighting a bunch of enemies to get to it, an Orc Shaman or whatever helped me beat them, even though I could've handled them myself, I could've looted that chest, but I decided to say nothing and move on, leaving the chest to my savior. The symbiosis you speak of is the players acting as human beings in every occasion. If someone is a 50 year old virgin with a micropenis and they feel they should make everyone bad by killing them just so they, themselves can feel good about themselves, then they are facing a personality problem that the game can't solve for them other than barring them from ruining other people's good time.

Oh my god, I can't believe I wrote Symbiosis. I meant to say Synthesis. Either way, the point I was making is about finding a synthesis in the mechanics of Warmode, not in the people that use it. I believe that the way Warmode has been done isn't particularly great, and needs to be fixed so that it hits that nice little niche - allowing PvP non-obnoxiously while not bringing any associated negativity (shitty players included) to the forefront.

[Snakeman]

Been skimming this thread and, as someone who enjoys roleplay, raiding and PvP to some extent... It just makes me so sad to read. Very much opening myself up to being clowned upon here, but I feel like there's a fundamental misunderstanding from most parties, and (ironically, considering my shaman's RP lol) I think we ought to sit down and try to better understand each other's points of view.

I've been playing since... October? Last year? And in that time as a somewhat-active world PvPer I've seen so much more harassment in game from level 60 raiders than from "PvPers". Even with the addition of War Mode, the only people ganking me sub-60 would unflag themselves or call their friends as soon as a real threat appeared. The only issue with War Mode, in my opinion, as someone who loves the 30% XP boost, is the fact it includes a 30% XP boost. There is a subset of players who take War Mode for levelling efficiency and not for its intended purpose, and I think the devs could really stand to either rework or remove the "reward" portion of War Mode, because as it stands now it encourages people who dislike PvP to take it from level 1.

One also needs to consider Turtle's unique position when questioning why people roll here. It's not just "an RP-PvE server" - it also offers vast amounts of custom content, GMs who actually make themselves present and known, a reasonable philosophy when it comes to lore... etc. <Blacktooth Grin> tried Darrowshire when that came out after withdrawing from live TBC Classic; I elected to roll on Turtle (and FFXIV) instead, because they fostered RP communities so much better - default forest troll skins, hello yes I'm here bb?
Eventually many more Grin made a conceited effort to level on Turtle, and now RP using many of Turtle's custom features not available in other versions of the game (ogre illusions! Blackrock skins!), and it's a disservice to a lot of people playing this game imo to ignore the fact TWoW includes these features when talking about the playerbase. Sure, Vanilla+ exists, but their efforts are turned more towards the endgame raiding experience than to roleplay.

Custom playable content also adds to TWoW's longevity over other servers - standard blizzlike vanilla servers experience a lot of player drop-off after Molten Core gets cleared, because the people who roll on vanilla servers (generally) just do it for the experience of levelling to 60, forgetting how boring it is to raid MC/Ony and nothing else for months on end. It's a coincidence imo that most of them happened to me wPvP enabled - and I know Season of Mastery likely put the final nail in the coffin for Darrow.

World PvP is an essential facet of Grin's RP - without world PvP, the guild simply could not exist - but there are strictly enforced rules around it: no spitting, no bagging, no camping. I think a lot of WoW players in general, not just on Turtle, could stand to try out this philosophy also.

[Volkyte]

complaining about pvp is pathetic. Pvp is part of wow, turtle or not. If you do not want to pvp do not flag yourself first. Most "pvp gankers" i see around come from PVE / Rp guilds, a true pvp guild focus on bgs and horganized fights, not world ganking. many times i got ganked and killed. That is part of wow, where i remember you whiners, is HORDE VS ALLIANCE. Remember wow trailer? you do not see orcs kissing gnomes i recall!. Just get used to it, get 2cm skin and stop crying if you got killed by a random pvper while questing. Act like a mature player for god sake!

[Energyreflect]

Such compelling and well formulated arguments, Volkyte! Really gives us food for thought!

[N0l]

With warmode (and with the multitude of RPPvP guilds now), Turtle now caters to RP-PvPers too, and RP-PvPers are an important part of this server's community. But as someone who stays flagged on warmode basically all the time on all my characters, I'm not really sure of what "toxic PvP" people are referring to so ubiquitously.

Gurubashi Arena is still a fairly safe zone (my low-level, flagged characters collect rested XP there all the time - I've only died twice now to ganks, and no camps yet), cross-faction play is still encouraged even among warmoded and flagged people, and I have yet to be camped despite being ganked a few times. Most of the people I see flagged aren't even that aggressive - so much so that I haven't actually been ganked while questing in STV yet.

People refer to ganks in world chat, sure, but I don't see what the problem of that is. Some people get camped, some people camp, some people brag about their most amusing kills. If people are being actually abusive or problematic about it, I'm certain the server's support team will talk to them.

As for the reward, I feel it should be kept. No-reward flagging would even discourage me from flagging (And I love PvP!) just because it'd certainly lead to basically everyone unflagging. But if the XP reward is "too much", then lowering it (perhaps to retail's baseline of 15% for warmode) - or some other system, such as keeping warmode on from 1-60 earns you a title or mount or other cosmetic reward. Some form of reward encourages people to try PvP, and makes the added danger of flagging "worth it" during the leveling experience.

[Marty1980]

I am a 3 days new player, and would love to give my opinion about it.

First of all I am a pvper , but a friendly one. I really love the warmode idea .... if you want to stay pve , don t activate it . I see the buffing part might be a problem for PvEer that dont want to deal with pvp.

I never attack horde for any reason in the world(except to help another alliance,but if i see the fight and alliance started the fight, i will not help) , but love to have the option. I usually get attack first. I got kill quite a few time by a twink rogue level 10 that must have around 1k hp. I would prefer to see a group of horde in the same level range without being twink coming to bring war and chaos. Fair fight is always welcome. Good for that twink if he is having fun , but seriously that show 0 skill .....

and even if i am tagged pvp, i helped horde way many more time then attack them when they quest.

I think pvp can be part of a RP asset.

I think pvp will help to bring more fresh blood, we are a group of 7 players that just move to turtle wow. Some used to be on nost, we move to warmane and now moving to a place that is less elitist.

Anyway i really love what i see so far, sorry about you getting kill for buffing. But the server could really use an extra hundreds of players.

[Arishkegal]

Warmode I guess is good for the devs (more players) and good for the people that like PvP. But as Mcnair said, it changed the server as it brings a very different crowd. The sheer number of those people also has an effect. There are so many PvP flagged players that I had to change the spells I use to not accidentally get flagged, buffing other players is suddenly a risk, and escort quests are no longer possible without dealing with griefers. This change therefore does affect PvE players far more than many seem to think when suggesting "just don't take the glyph, bro." I never took the glyph, but felt chased off the server by it very quickly. Totally different scene and vibe.

Please remember this when making future changes:
"Looking for a friendly community?
Welcome to Turtle WoW. RP/PvE Vanilla server"

[Olgert]

Idk, PvP is just part of the game the same as PvE, and while we are building the ideal WoW server, we shouldn't just cut off half of the game because of some people complaining about bunch of toxic players. Adopt to the new reality with 3k+ player online (which is really good). I hope admins will improve PvP part with new features so everyone will be satisfied.

[Conundrum]

Hey buddy, I don't think you should be playing "WARCRAFT" if you dislike the WAR aspect.
You are free and welcome to join club penguin or just download VRs and hang out with all the other bubble boys out there.

Just have some common sense next time you decide to log on and write an EPOCH on such a retarded topic.

Sincerely,
Eeveryone thats not a whining scrub.