Toxic PvP?

[Mindboggler]

Don't focus on a single aspect of my post like that was the crux of my argument. I despise the idea of not being able to play the game with other people. Yes, I absolutely do despise not being able to play with Hardcore players. But they make up a small minority of the server and they knew well in advance they weren't going to be able to interact with anyone outside of their bubble.

Suddenly dumping this concept on Warmode is atrocious. I like being able to play this game with all sorts of people, partitioning us off like we have a disease isn't healthy for the server and it definitely isn't fun.

[Geojak]

While I find it sad that I can't group with hardcore players and live in parralel with them. There really is no reason to protest , as it's clearly a reasonable compromise to play on one server together like this.

I rather have the hardcore and non hc players on one server without grouping than two servers with half the pop.

We talk talk about segregating player bases when we hit 5000 players

Even as non hc it's sometimes fun watching the drama

[Afaslizo]

Don't focus on a single aspect of my post like that was the crux of my argument. I despise the idea of not being able to play the game with other people. Yes, I absolutely do despise not being able to play with Hardcore players. But they make up a small minority of the server and they knew well in advance they weren't going to be able to interact with anyone outside of their bubble.

Suddenly dumping this concept on Warmode is atrocious. I like being able to play this game with all sorts of people, partitioning us off like we have a disease isn't healthy for the server and it definitely isn't fun.

As someone who almost plays exclusively hc I don't see the problem. I know that intertwining pve-players with us would lead to more problems. At the start we could run dungeons with them but that led to catastropes because they tried to get us killed. That said HC is one of the most tight-knit-communities on Turtle. I can't remember how many times I traded with others just as a middleman or exchanged goods(my lw gear for some swiftness potions) or found people to help or guide.
It is funny how the same people can promote seperation by faction and destruction of cooperation between the factions while lamenting seperating pvp-players and pve-players for more harmony. That does not add up at all.

[Mindboggler]

Well that's just it then, isn't it? You play Hardcore but the majority of the playerbase doesn't. Yet you are calling for change that would effect everyone. It would segregate Warmode players and normal players. I don't believe that's fair at all since you clearly don't speak for normal players or those who use Warmode.

You also seem to be under this strange preconception that Warmode players cannot or perhaps do not group, quest, and interact with members of the opposite faction. We do. I've leveled and dungeoned with the opposite faction. But we fight as well. It's a gamble of an experience and hasn't effected the "harmony" as you put it for people who do not use Warmode.

[Afaslizo]

Well that's just it then, isn't it? You play Hardcore but the majority of the playerbase doesn't. Yet you are calling for change that would effect everyone. It would segregate Warmode players and normal players. I don't believe that's fair at all since you clearly don't speak for normal players or those who use Warmode.

You also seem to be under this strange preconception that Warmode players cannot or perhaps do not group, quest, and interact with members of the opposite faction. We do. I've leveled and dungeoned with the opposite faction. But we fight as well. It's a gamble of an experience and hasn't effected the "harmony" as you put it for people who do not use Warmode.

You seem to confuse my posts with someone else's because I am for the seperation of pve and pvp, not warmode and not-warmode.

[Allwynd01]

Go back and read ur old argument again, you literally started woth " Thats stupid "

You sound like a person that wouldnt be missed if you leave. So by all means, go and find a server where there is no pvp :)

So my suspicions are confirmed:

a) you have trouble understanding what you're reading
b) you like to put your own spin on what things mean

It feels like you're not even speaking English, actual English, but your own version of English where words have different meanings every time based on what suits your narrative. Don't bother responding to me, because I will not continue wasting my time with you.

[Valadorn]

Go back and read ur old argument again, you literally started woth " Thats stupid "

You sound like a person that wouldnt be missed if you leave. So by all means, go and find a server where there is no pvp :)

So my suspicions are confirmed:

a) you have trouble understanding what you're reading
b) you like to put your own spin on what things mean

It feels like you're not even speaking English, actual English, but your own version of English where words have different meanings every time based on what suits your narrative. Don't bother responding to me, because I will not continue wasting my time with you.

ok boomer

[Mcnair]

I tried so far to avoid all these rather personal and often childish responses, and provide a framework of discussion by pointing out the current problem many long standing members of the server feel lately, and some of the questionable changes that happened.
I'll make another attempt at it.

In it's current implementation, Warmode serves no benefit for the people who seek mutually-agreed-upon PvP, as even pro-Warmode posters above me point out that on any PvE servers people always have the option to turn on PvP by typing /pvp. That means, the only role of the glyph is to provide a selection of fresh meat to the grinder of ganking, lured in by the substantial XP boost. That xp boost is going against the very essence of what the server stood for for a long time. I would like to ask the GMs if they could provide a fair reasoning behind the implementation of this mode to the server, maybe I am missing other aspects here.

The other thing the server stood for a long time was cooperation. Still, cooperation is the opposite of PvP, no single player, as some people try to force the conversation. The Horde and the Alliance are _not_ at war as the story goes in Vanilla.

Thirdly, I want to point out again, that the problem is not the presence or absence of PvP. The problem is, that the amount of people with an unhealthy amount of competitiveness is increasing steadily. They started to voice the need for more and more pro-PvP changes, which in turn increase the amount further. And this is the aspect that the PvE-focused members can not opt-out from. The language of the general World and common guild channels have changed a lot, and not for the better. The bitterness/glee over a lost/won PvP match is not (just) discussed in whispers, but all over the place. PvP can be a great experience, but some people just don't know where to stop.a

As others pointed out earlier, this phenomena was observed over these last ~18 years over and over, and in all cases lead to the long-term demise of the servers. Turtle WoW had for a long time only 1 inviting aspect, the very friendly community. Nowadays, it has 2 inviting aspects: A friendly community and the changes over the original Vanilla. I am afraid soon it will only have just one.

[Geojak]

Pvp Server have always had a lot more players, and warmode allows us to accompany pvp server players and pve server players on on joint place.

You appear to be under the impression nthst warmode just server to trick people into chosing it for the 30% XP.

But there are actual slot of people thaz prefer pvp Server.

I am not oen of them, but I can see the reality. Just look how many pve server existed on blizzard classic and how many pvp.

Warmode is great as a middle ground.

Secondly you argue against the bonus xp. While I personally also don't liek it, just look at the changes blizzard did for season of mastery. Warmode with bonus XP is just going with the time and flow as that seems to be what newer players want.

Nothing is forced on pve players. And the pvp players dotn get the XP for free either, they pay with deaths due to the World pvp they so wanted.

I don't understand the discontent with the new features.

Lasty to Adress your point about server toxicity by newer players. Warmode and faster leveling clearly attracts more people, I assume also younger people. They don't share the same mentality as boomers or rp-pve focused people.

Generation conflict has always been a thing in the world. Just be tolerant.

Imagine the real world analogon. You are white American and complaining that America is getting more and more black in percentage. And now you say they behave toxic and want to discuss a "solution", or segregation.

This is wrong, we must be tolerant.

Their is no easy solution, but gm doing a good job to monitor world and beginners chat for extreme cases and mute them.

It feels to me that older players are intolerant towards newer people. If they want to min max then let them. If this offends you, then the problem is iwith you honestly.

Just do your own thing. Play without warmode, on turtle mode, lean to avoid get flagged.

I can, so can you

[Valadorn]

Id like to mention that the exp boost also makes people more likely to level alts.

Which helps both low level grouping and diversifies high lvl grouping if ppl can adapt with different characters.

[Merikkinon]

"The Drums of War Thunder Again"

on the server forum

[Geojak]

"In the age of chaos, to factions battle for dominance"



Who knew they meant pve vs pvp players

[Merikkinon]

Needs to be a vid meme

[Mirauge]

All I can say as a new player to this server and community is that I am so happy to hear I am not alone in wanting more PvP elements in with the server. I disagree to the absolute fullest extent about PvP bringing unpleasant company. This is your OPINION. This is undoubtedly brought on by experiences you've had PvPing while playing. Not everyone. For example I've met some of the nicest people saving me from higher level stronger players. That made me look up to them and how I wanted to play when I became strong. Some folks do not like to PvP, and as none of the zones are even contested it being a pve/RP server. It makes no sense to hinder the designated zone made for PvP. This is what brings the whole. "My side is right thats what this server is deal with it" kind of attitude. That would send new players like me running for the hills.

I can say that I've felt nothing but welcomed in this community and I don't wish to see that kind of argument happening. I'll say first, that I chose to play here because this server has very unique features and is well coded. If there was a PvP server as an option in this community. I'd gladly opt to be apart of it. But everyone knows that is not the case as of current. It would appear based on the implementation of Warmode, and its high incentives on opting in being XP gain. That the devs in fact, do want more PvP within their populace. This brings another layer to the general population and is overall a good thing. Change is good.

I understand that your stomping grounds deserves not to be disrespected. But please do understand that in building a server and a strong community, certain things you may have had in place to make things work for a lower population may in turn change some. One example being the "Tent Friendly" zone being moved to a more deserving or worthy area. Out of space, of say...The designated area for PvP put in place by the original creators. Even in a Pve/RP server obviously.

I loved the idea of the tent zone being moved to the race way. Wouldn't it be great if the tent zone could be upgraded. Maybe bets for the races could be added. Or other fun games you could do while gaining XP with your friends RPing. There can be good with change.

This server to me advertised itself as a vanilla wow Anew. Basically an alternate route that blizzard could of took. Not entirely just a RP server. Although I respect fully the stomping grounds of the original RP community to the absolute fullest. I ask that you try to understand that others need a home too. With the growth of your community, will come some change. With the fiasco that is blizzard now a days. We don't want to pay them anymore. This server and community could use that second layer of folks.

This brings me to the next topic, which is community splitting. Some would argue that adding a PvP server at this stage in the communities growth would hinder it. I agree fully. It would hinder it! lets not split and do RP and PvP servers just yet. But THIS IS the future and the ultimate goal I think.

Right now we have something unique, a server where if you want the PvP. You can have it. Or if you don't, then you can pay attention to the colors of player titles that are flagged PvP and avoid being sad about it. No one is fighting. We are all playing a game and having LOADS of fun. Be it in combat, questing, etc.

That being said I do not support griefing, and general PvP related player abuse.

Thanks for listening.

[Kiwijello]

All I can say as a new player to this server and community is that I am so happy to hear I am not alone in wanting more PvP elements in with the server. I disagree to the absolute fullest extent about PvP bringing unpleasant company. This is your OPINION. This is undoubtedly brought on by experiences you've had PvPing while playing. Not everyone. For example I've met some of the nicest people saving me from higher level stronger players. That made me look up to them and how I wanted to play when I became strong. Some folks do not like to PvP, and as none of the zones are even contested it being a pve/RP server. It makes no sense to hinder the designated zone made for PvP. This is what brings the whole. "My side is right thats what this server is deal with it" kind of attitude. That would send new players like me running for the hills.

I can say that I've felt nothing but welcomed in this community and I don't wish to see that kind of argument happening. I'll say first, that I chose to play here because this server has very unique features and is well coded. If there was a PvP server as an option in this community. I'd gladly opt to be apart of it. But everyone knows that is not the case as of current. It would appear based on the implementation of Warmode, and its high incentives on opting in being XP gain. That the devs in fact, do want more PvP within their populace. This brings another layer to the general population and is overall a good thing. Change is good.

I understand that your stomping grounds deserves not to be disrespected. But please do understand that in building a server and a strong community, certain things you may have had in place to make things work for a lower population may in turn change some. One example being the "Tent Friendly" zone being moved to a more deserving or worthy area. Out of space, of say...The designated area for PvP put in place by the original creators. Even in a Pve/RP server obviously.

I loved the idea of the tent zone being moved to the race way. Wouldn't it be great if the tent zone could be upgraded. Maybe bets for the races could be added. Or other fun games you could do while gaining XP with your friends RPing. There can be good with change.

This server to me advertised itself as a vanilla wow Anew. Basically an alternate route that blizzard could of took. Not entirely just a RP server. Although I respect fully the stomping grounds of the original RP community to the absolute fullest. I ask that you try to understand that others need a home too. With the growth of your community, will come some change. With the fiasco that is blizzard now a days. We don't want to pay them anymore. This server and community could use that second layer of folks.

This brings me to the next topic, which is community splitting. Some would argue that adding a PvP server at this stage in the communities growth would hinder it. I agree fully. It would hinder it! lets not split and do RP and PvP servers just yet. But THIS IS the future and the ultimate goal I think.

Right now we have something unique, a server where if you want the PvP. You can have it. Or if you don't, then you can pay attention to the colors of player titles that are flagged PvP and avoid being sad about it. No one is fighting. We are all playing a game and having LOADS of fun. Be it in combat, questing, etc.

That being said I do not support griefing, and general PvP related player abuse.

Thanks for listening.

YOU are obviously not the issue. Neither is PVP. There is a group of people that came in with the PVP changes that are making things difficult for other players. That is the crux of this entire thing.

Bring on the PVP. I even have a few toons on warmode, but the side effects of the warmode glyph is a certain sect of players it brought are assholes and ruin it for PVE AND PVP players. Most of the people in this thread keep skipping over that part and are arguing about PVP. It is NOT the PVP, its the BEHAVIOR of a handful of people that PVP seems to have brought. There is a huge difference in the two things.

My personal issue is the ass holes who use PVP as a weapon to harass and bully other people. Other that that, it should be free game. But there should still retain a level of respect as a community.

My hope to resolve this is that the community, as a whole, reject these people and refuse to group or play with them until they leave. No changes to PVP need to be made, but we damn well need some attitude adjustments. Flagging PVP does not give anyone the right to be a jerk to other people. Good fun is one thing, treating people like garbage to get your yayas is sickening.

[Merikkinon]

So you make a really interesting point. The future could very well be dual servers (RP/PVE and PVP). IF the dev team could manage the server a bit better. IF the community could manage to not implode. It would pull in more and more players. Yes, it would pull in those who are immature (that's a given - always has been since 2006 and before, really) and also those who are just downright unhappy and find enjoyment - or a suspension of their misery - in projecting onto the player experience of others.

But IF we could do all that, then assuming (which is huge) that the devs would open a PVP server, then the community could peacefully go into separate channels and co-exist with the same great framework.

IF that isn't an option, then I will say devs need to either manage the community a hell of a lot better or expect the inevitable disintegration of the server as it implodes and becomes yet another bastion of discord.

Entropy and Negative Entropy. It cannot be avoided. Question is, how will it be handled.

[Allwynd01]

So you make a really interesting point. The future could very well be dual servers (RP/PVE and PVP). IF the dev team could manage the server a bit better. IF the community could manage to not implode. It would pull in more and more players. Yes, it would pull in those who are immature (that's a given - always has been since 2006 and before, really) and also those who are just downright unhappy and find enjoyment - or a suspension of their misery - in projecting onto the player experience of others.

But IF we could do all that, then assuming (which is huge) that the devs would open a PVP server, then the community could peacefully go into separate channels and co-exist with the same great framework.

IF that isn't an option, then I will say devs need to either manage the community a hell of a lot better or expect the inevitable disintegration of the server as it implodes and becomes yet another bastion of discord.

Entropy and Negative Entropy. It cannot be avoided. Question is, how will it be handled.

Opening a separate server for just PvP will only segregate the small population even further, this is not in the interest of anyone.

The only solution is to contain PvP in battlegrounds an instanced arena.

If instanced arena is not technically feasible, then maybe the Gurubashi arena could have something implemented where players can form a group, another term for arena team or go solo, talk to an NPC and be queued against someone else, then they enter the arena pit and then there is erected an invisible wall around the pit that doesn't allow any outside interaction while the people are fighting and one player or one team wins.

The issues with World PvP can't really be fixed in my opinion, it can either remain this way and a certain amount of players be unhappy about it or PvP can be contained in instanced locations as per my example, if it's possible.

But I sand by what I said earlier - the Turtle team need to make up their mind what they want the server's focus to be - PvE, PvP or RP, because I don't think it can be all of it without the present drawbacks.

[Valadorn]

Have you ever played on a PvE server ? Even on the most pve server there is a command for /pvp for those that want to.

Do you guys even play on this server ?

Why act like PvP is mandatory ?

[Zhohan]

Based on my experiences, I think the reaction to Warmode here is a little overblown. While I understand the concern, I have seen more RP in the past month than the previous six months combined. The RP community is going strong with the recent influx. And most PvP players in my experience have been nothing but friendly. However, I have noticed the quality of world chat go down in the past few months. I think this is just inherent with any private server with an increasingly large population. The best way to fight against that is be the change you want to see. Don't partake in fights on chat, be nice to people, and don't take any bait.

[Merikkinon]

So you make a really interesting point. The future could very well be dual servers (RP/PVE and PVP). IF the dev team could manage the server a bit better. IF the community could manage to not implode. It would pull in more and more players.

Opening a separate server for just PvP will only segregate the small population even further, this is not in the interest of anyone.

The only solution is to contain PvP in battlegrounds an instanced arena.

I guess I had to say it explicitly for some to understand, but the idea of 'more and more players' would indicate the server is loaded up with more than enough players to do what I mention.

Second, to your comment that 'the only solution' - dude, that is just YOUR opinion. Not a fact.

[Kalgert]

This may prove to be an unpopular opinion, but I'm going to say it anyway, because I believe that there is some truth behind it: Anytime you cater to PvP groups, or add features that further enable it, you are very much inviting the devil to your home (Or in this case: Players with potential malicious intentions to your server).

You may not agree, let alone like the sentiment, but I think it will be hard to deny that anytime a game, server or whatever decides to open up PvP to be another part of the "Main dish", things just slowly devolve into a mess, this thread showcasing perfectly what kind of mess.

I last played in August and it was pretty peaceful. Two weeks into coming back and I've found myself just leaving all the public chats because of how insufferable some people have been. Heck, I posted an opinion about Warmode and there were people telling me to be quiet, and some people saying they enjoy killing low level players because it's "Fun". Makes me dread what they're like when the opportunity to kill HC players arises...

The only place that I've seen to be properly friendly is the Hardcore guild. A fragmented click for certain, but what better way to bond with one another than have a common goal, that is being to survive? What is the "Common goal" that brings people together when it comes to PvP?
Go on, tell me, I'll wait, because I can safely tell you that there is NO such goal that brings people together, only drives a wedge between people. PvP communities aren't formed with a shared love and bond, but rather through hostilities and hatred. I know, it sounds corny to say it like that, but I can't think of a better way to describe it.

And it's a shame too. I was looking forward to getting deeply invested and maybe take part in some RP. Right now I see more buzz around PvP than RP, which as far as I can tell was one of the main selling points for this server.

[Kiwijello]

I was looking forward to getting deeply invested and maybe take part in some RP. Right now I see more buzz around PvP than RP, which as far as I can tell was one of the main selling points for this server.

I was loving the community and was about to setup a sub on paypal. Things changed so quicky, I am glad I didn't. I am going to wait and see what develops now. I don't want to have to turn off all the chats and segregate myself to avoid toxic people. If I wanted that, I could play retail or go outside and do real life ;) It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out.

[Mativh]

When I came up with this world pvp challenge, that became the war mode, I've written in detail about why it is a good idea, you should read it perhaps it'll expand your perspective on the matter, page 9:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2068&sid=2ace129488 ... &start=160

As I've thought, it increased the servers population, just like hardcore did, like always the the community will eventually weed out the limited amount of impolite/unfriendly people that are expected to appear with any influx of players, for every one of those there is 20 new wholesome turtles.
I understand that misclicking can be frustrating but with this new feature it is just something you'll have to learn, the same way you know not to misclick in other situations. Buff only people with blue name color if you wish to remain unflagged.
Generalizing, calling everyone who likes to do world pvp toxic, is actual toxic behavior, that kind of thinking is the root of most discrimination in real life.

About pvp zones - there could be instead of permanent pvp zones (which I don't like since it'd exclude non-pvp people especially hardcore ones) something like wintergrasp or tol barad kind of pvp events in zones (they even had a raid), but everyone could be there.
No new zones would even be neccesary just events happening one at a time throughout existing zones sometimes.
Or a Nagrand kind of situation where current towns could be conquered back and forth between factions.

Another option could be a diplomacy system not being just an opt-in feature but having couple levels that could increase over time or with quests or other requirement;
1 - can talk to opposite faction players,
2 - can group and trade,
3 - opposite faction npcs wont attack,
4 - wont get flagged for pvp in any zone, including capitals, can talk to opposite faction npcs
5 - can do opposite faction quests and gain reputation

Something similar was my initial thought btw about the warmode, where being flagged for pvp like on a pvp server would be the baseline but you could get diplomacy where you could work yourself up to be as if on a pve server and even to the point of the faction conflict practically disappearing for you and other like minded individuals, while the pvp minded ones would remain at the baseline fighting each other (but the suggestion above about the diplomacy levels is from the current game view where PvE is baseline with opt-in warmode).

[Bellybutton]

The fact that some of PvPers in this thread are now comparing this thread to real world discrimination/racism and pulling the tolerance card is one of the most ridiculous and disrespectful things I've ever read on this forum, both towards real-world people who actually get discriminated against, and to the original RP/PvE community on Turtle WoW.

People on Turtle are just concerned that the server is moving in a completely different direction from what it was built on in the first place. Initially Turtle WoW filled a niche that other servers couldn't and now that niche feels under attack by people who come here wanting to play a style that's the focus on so many other popular Vanilla servers and are openly asking for more and more changes to cater to them, all while the existing RP community continues to dwindle, leave, or get dwarfed by the same players who make up the majority of the community on nearly every other popular vanilla server.

[Valadorn]

So many Toxic PvE people here, yet they dont even notice how toxic they are :(

Let's ban everyone that dares even slightly enjoy PvP, and then do the Surprised Pikachu face when there wont be enough ppl left for Dungeons. :)

[Afaslizo]

So many Toxic PvE people here, yet they dont even notice how toxic they are :(

Let's ban everyone that dares even slightly enjoy PvP, and then do the Surprised Pikachu face when there wont be enough ppl left for Dungeons. :)

Nobody can't be more toxic than the person constantly trying to deride other people's comments, failing to really confronting them in detail and campaigning to ridicule them. Read: You.

[Kalgert]

I was loving the community and was about to setup a sub on paypal. Things changed so quicky, I am glad I didn't. I am going to wait and see what develops now. I don't want to have to turn off all the chats and segregate myself to avoid toxic people. If I wanted that, I could play retail or go outside and do real life ;) It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out.

Honestly I feel a bit bad not hanging around the server longer. I'm certainly enjoying the custom-made content as there's definitely a lot of heart put into it, and I like how some of the quests added get to give some mobs more purpose/flesh out the world a bit more.

The fact that some of PvPers in this thread are now comparing this thread to real world discrimination/racism and pulling the tolerance card is one of the most ridiculous and disrespectful things I've ever read on this forum, both towards real-world people who actually get discriminated against, and to the original RP/PvE community on Turtle WoW.

People on Turtle are just concerned that the server is moving in a completely different direction from what it was built on in the first place. Initially Turtle WoW filled a niche that other servers couldn't and now that niche feels under attack by people who come here wanting to play a style that's the focus on so many other popular Vanilla servers and are openly asking for more and more changes to cater to them, all while the existing RP community continues to dwindle, leave, or get dwarfed by the same players who make up the majority of the community on nearly every other popular vanilla server.

Yes, exactly! The reason I'm so critical, perhaps a bit "Mean" towards PvP players is because I know from prior experience how it's like when a game caters fully towards them as a demographic. It doesn't usually end well when they become the majority and then end up essentially "Dictating" what ought to be added to a game.

A good example would be Sea of Thieves and just how that game's community is like. A game that probably has one of the worst gaming communities in existence. And honestly reading some of the discussion points levied by some of the more PvP-minded players here, I just don't feel convinced that they're arguing in good faith.

As I've thought, it increased the servers population, just like hardcore did, like always the the community will eventually weed out the limited amount of impolite/unfriendly people that are expected to appear with any influx of players, for every one of those there is 20 new wholesome turtles.
I understand that misclicking can be frustrating but with this new feature it is just something you'll have to learn, the same way you know not to misclick in other situations. Buff only people with blue name color if you wish to remain unflagged.
Generalizing, calling everyone who likes to do world pvp toxic, is actual toxic behavior, that kind of thinking is the root of most discrimination in real life.

Sometimes, the saying "Quality over quantity" works quite well. Sometimes a more peaceful enviroment with not much talking is a lot better than a very active enviroment where people seem to outright hate each other half the time, and I really think that saying "Just be more careful m8 and don't buff greens" really takes away the whole co-operation aspect of it all.
"Hey, can you throw me an intellect buff?" "Sorry, can't, you're flagged for PvP and I don't want to get flagged with that high level character following me around."
And please, don't act as if people having concerns over PvP players having the potential to erode the quality of a server as some kind of real life discrimination association. It's a disingenuous comparison and I know that you know this.

[Kalgert]

So many Toxic PvE people here, yet they dont even notice how toxic they are :(

Let's ban everyone that dares even slightly enjoy PvP, and then do the Surprised Pikachu face when there wont be enough ppl left for Dungeons. :)

Honestly I wouldn't have such a problem if there'd be a lack of people to do dungeons with. Most of my enjoyment comes from leveling in the world itself. Besides, I don't believe that this is an actual concern that you have, seeing what your post history's been like in this thread.

[Stoogeville]

So many Toxic PvE people here, yet they dont even notice how toxic they are :(

Let's ban everyone that dares even slightly enjoy PvP, and then do the Surprised Pikachu face when there wont be enough ppl left for Dungeons. :)

You seem to be pretty tone-deaf on this. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that PvPers are the crux when it comes to populating PvE content; nor that there were always enough people for dungeons even before Warmode. I think, honestly, you're just trying to ghoulify the point so that you feel less bad that PvP players are finally being called out. Turtle survived for a long time before the current wave of PvP refugees - they're not the solution, they are the problem.


I was there when the discussions about Warmode first started going around. Back then, I was in support of them; which I still am, in theory, if it is done correctly.
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What has happened, however, as I'm sure has been explained to death in this thread: The devs have used PvE rewards to encourage PvP. So, rather than getting Warmode because they want to engage in PvP, people are getting it purely for the XP bonus, even if they personally do not like to PvP (because, it's a biiiiig bonus); and in turn, toxic players are capitalizing on it by ganking them, and acting snide to prove a point. PvP should be about encouraging PvP players to positively engage in PvP, while encouraging PvE players to do their thing without muddying the waters - and as such, the rewards (and mechanisms) of Warmode are desperately in need of fixing. It's not enough just to deride somebody by the schizophrenic argumens of saying, "Get Warmode because the XP boost is too good!", and then saying, "If you didn't want to get ganked, don't get warmode!". Once again, PvP should be about encouraging positive, balanced PvP in the wilds; not gank paranoia.

Ultimately, if this can't be done (which it absolutely can), I think that Warmode should be removed. PvP players seem to say things like, "Well, anecdotally, I never got ganked!"; but, obviously, these are PvP players. They don't play like the rest of the Turtle crowd; which is, socially, and without PvP anxiety. They don't visit the meetups at Tents, they don't run around neutral hubs to chat to players; and ultimately, their attitude doesn't fit with the server. Turtle has always been a RP-PvE server. I'm sure that PvPers enjoy Turtle for all the great things it has, and don't want to simply be kicked back into the toxicity of open-PvP servers; but, sadly, we've got to take care of our community first, and if PvP players are killing the vibe, they have no right to run around making arrogant, hackneyed arguments to support what is clearly a poorly-instituted game mechanic. In the end, there's no other server like Turtle, and there's a reason. Let's not forget it.


I'm honestly not sure how the developers settled on the current confuguration for Warmode. I love the devs' efforts, but I've noticed a very strong trend that devs on Turtle lack foresight. They'll make quick, dirty changes that seem (and often are) pretty cool on the surface level; but end up having more ramifications than boons.

For instance, look at the current issue with classes: Many people have stated a strong eagerness for Undead Paladins and Dwarf Shamans. However, this is no longer possible, because the class limit on both races has been maxed out. Somebody decided that it would be cool to have Undead Hunters; and clearly without thinking it through, they made the change, and forever locked Turtle into its current paradigm. It could be argued that faction-restrictions like that are a trait of vanilla; but it's not 2005 anymore, and the idea of faction-specific classes no longer has the same whimsy and excitement as it did twenty years ago (now that everybody knows classes inside-out).

[Dwstar]

Disclaimer: i am not any sort of "PVP enjoyer". And i am not playing with warmode. Just a little observation here.
1. While reading through the discussion i have seen many times one statement in different forms: "warmode is luring PVE players to turn on PVP". I am sorry, what? Are they 5 years old and don't understand a thing? Are they pushed there by force? Are they somehow discriminated by not turning it on? No, they don't. This server has blizzlike xp rate, and when you are diving in you are already signed to have this x1 rate. How are you being discriminated by not having x1.3? I don't get it. We already have insane stacking tent rest if you for some strange reason need to level up faster (why? if you need, you have 100500 fun servers over the internet with rates like x100 or something...). Just don't pick up warmode and forget about it forever. This server is called turtle wow by reason.
2. Some people talk about RP, and then instantly switch to "walking around, talking with other faction peacefully" as a synonim to RP. Ok, Azeroth is a very big place and there definitely must be tauren and gnomes and... murlocs who don't want to fight each other. We see them everywhere as neutral NPCs. But in general we have constant tension between big factions. Faction cooperation existed in warcraft history, but at this point (end of Classic story line) we are at some sort of cold war. Just count people who activated warmode as members of minor factions, which want the war to continue. Nothing here breaks RP. What is really breaking RP is your idea that everyone must be forced to live in peace by some invisible godlike entity (GMs/devs).
To the real downsides of warmode - in actual form it is very primitive. And i'd remove xp bonus (as it upsets so many people for some reason) and maybe add some other, focused on pvp versus other warmode enabled players. Maybe alternative pvp titles or something.
Didn't mean to insult anyone, again.

[Valadorn]

So many Toxic PvE people here, yet they dont even notice how toxic they are :(

Let's ban everyone that dares even slightly enjoy PvP, and then do the Surprised Pikachu face when there wont be enough ppl left for Dungeons. :)

You seem to be pretty tone-deaf on this. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that PvPers are the crux when it comes to populating PvE content; nor that there were always enough people for dungeons even before Warmode. I think, honestly, you're just trying to ghoulify the point so that you feel less bad that PvP players are finally being called out. Turtle survived for a long time before the current wave of PvP refugees - they're not the solution, they are the problem.


I was there when the discussions about Warmode first started going around. Back then, I was in support of them; which I still am, in theory, if it is done correctly.
0

What has happened, however, as I'm sure has been explained to death in this thread: The devs have used PvE rewards to encourage PvP. So, rather than getting Warmode because they want to engage in PvP, people are getting it purely for the XP bonus, even if they personally do not like to PvP (because, it's a biiiiig bonus); and in turn, toxic players are capitalizing on it by ganking them, and acting snide to prove a point. PvP should be about encouraging PvP players to positively engage in PvP, while encouraging PvE players to do their thing without muddying the waters - and as such, the rewards (and mechanisms) of Warmode are desperately in need of fixing. It's not enough just to deride somebody by the schizophrenic argumens of saying, "Get Warmode because the XP boost is too good!", and then saying, "If you didn't want to get ganked, don't get warmode!". Once again, PvP should be about encouraging positive, balanced PvP in the wilds; not gank paranoia.

Ultimately, if this can't be done (which it absolutely can), I think that Warmode should be removed. PvP players seem to say things like, "Well, anecdotally, I never got ganked!"; but, obviously, these are PvP players. They don't play like the rest of the Turtle crowd; which is, socially, and without PvP anxiety. They don't visit the meetups at Tents, they don't run around neutral hubs to chat to players; and ultimately, their attitude doesn't fit with the server. Turtle has always been a RP-PvE server. I'm sure that PvPers enjoy Turtle for all the great things it has, and don't want to simply be kicked back into the toxicity of open-PvP servers; but, sadly, we've got to take care of our community first, and if PvP players are killing the vibe, they have no right to run around making arrogant, hackneyed arguments to support what is clearly a poorly-instituted game mechanic. In the end, there's no other server like Turtle, and there's a reason. Let's not forget it.


I'm honestly not sure how the developers settled on the current confuguration for Warmode. I love the devs' efforts, but I've noticed a very strong trend that devs on Turtle lack foresight. They'll make quick, dirty changes that seem (and often are) pretty cool on the surface level; but end up having more ramifications than boons.

For instance, look at the current issue with classes: Many people have stated a strong eagerness for Undead Paladins and Dwarf Shamans. However, this is no longer possible, because the class limit on both races has been maxed out. Somebody decided that it would be cool to have Undead Hunters; and clearly without thinking it through, they made the change, and forever locked Turtle into its current paradigm. It could be argued that faction-restrictions like that are a trait of vanilla; but it's not 2005 anymore, and the idea of faction-specific classes no longer has the same whimsy and excitement as it did twenty years ago (now that everybody knows classes inside-out).

Now, I ask you to read your post, very slowly and I am sure you will find the problem .

I have, honestly no idea why you think that Experience is not needed for PvP players xD. And I still dont understand what the problem with an Opt-in PvP mode is ?

[Valadorn]

Disclaimer: i am not any sort of "PVP enjoyer". And i am not playing with warmode. Just a little observation here.
1. While reading through the discussion i have seen many times one statement in different forms: "warmode is luring PVE players to turn on PVP". I am sorry, what? Are they 5 years old and don't understand a thing? Are they pushed there by force? Are they somehow discriminated by not turning it on? No, they don't. This server has blizzlike xp rate, and when you are diving in you are already signed to have this x1 rate. How are you being discriminated by not having x1.3? I don't get it. We already have insane stacking tent rest if you for some strange reason need to level up faster (why? if you need, you have 100500 fun servers over the internet with rates like x100 or something...). Just don't pick up warmode and forget about it forever. This server is called turtle wow by reason.
2. Some people talk about RP, and then instantly switch to "walking around, talking with other faction peacefully" as a synonim to RP. Ok, Azeroth is a very big place and there definitely must be tauren and gnomes and... murlocs who don't want to fight each other. We see them everywhere as neutral NPCs. But in general we have constant tension between big factions. Faction cooperation existed in warcraft history, but at this point (end of Classic story line) we are at some sort of cold war. Just count people who activated warmode as members of minor factions, which want the war to continue. Nothing here breaks RP. What is really breaking RP is your idea that everyone must be forced to live in peace by some invisible godlike entity (GMs/devs).
To the real downsides of warmode - in actual form it is very primitive. And i'd remove xp bonus (as it upsets so many people for some reason) and maybe add some other, focused on pvp versus other warmode enabled players. Maybe alternative pvp titles or something.
Didn't mean to insult anyone, again.

Thank you for the post, id just like to mention that the experience is added, as a way to balance out the time you spend corpse running after getting killed by another players, this is behind the reason of the 30% exp, and if you take it into consideration that Warmode players will die alot more, I think it is pretty fair. I can't think of a single thing that would benefit PvP players only, without affecting and upsetting PvE players :s

[Dwstar]

Disclaimer: i am not any sort of "PVP enjoyer". And i am not playing with warmode. Just a little observation here.
1. While reading through the discussion i have seen many times one statement in different forms: "warmode is luring PVE players to turn on PVP". I am sorry, what? Are they 5 years old and don't understand a thing? Are they pushed there by force? Are they somehow discriminated by not turning it on? No, they don't. This server has blizzlike xp rate, and when you are diving in you are already signed to have this x1 rate. How are you being discriminated by not having x1.3? I don't get it. We already have insane stacking tent rest if you for some strange reason need to level up faster (why? if you need, you have 100500 fun servers over the internet with rates like x100 or something...). Just don't pick up warmode and forget about it forever. This server is called turtle wow by reason.
2. Some people talk about RP, and then instantly switch to "walking around, talking with other faction peacefully" as a synonim to RP. Ok, Azeroth is a very big place and there definitely must be tauren and gnomes and... murlocs who don't want to fight each other. We see them everywhere as neutral NPCs. But in general we have constant tension between big factions. Faction cooperation existed in warcraft history, but at this point (end of Classic story line) we are at some sort of cold war. Just count people who activated warmode as members of minor factions, which want the war to continue. Nothing here breaks RP. What is really breaking RP is your idea that everyone must be forced to live in peace by some invisible godlike entity (GMs/devs).
To the real downsides of warmode - in actual form it is very primitive. And i'd remove xp bonus (as it upsets so many people for some reason) and maybe add some other, focused on pvp versus other warmode enabled players. Maybe alternative pvp titles or something.
Didn't mean to insult anyone, again.

Thank you for the post, id just like to mention that the experience is added, as a way to balance out the time you spend corpse running after getting killed by another players, this is behind the reason of the 30% exp, and if you take it into consideration that Warmode players will die alot more, I think it is pretty fair. I can't think of a single thing that would benefit PvP players only, without affecting and upsetting PvE players :s

I totally agree that small exp bonus is good compensation for the risks. Just thought if it is so insulting for some people, maybe it could be changed to something else.
As i mentioned, it may be alternate accolade of pvp ranks with different titles. Something like "brute", "warmonger", etc. (horde version) With its own visual set of pvp items. I have no idea about how difficult is it to implement such feature.
Maybe also some quests available only for warmode, rewarding honor points and focusing on killing other warmode enabled players. It will draw the focus of this mode to challenging equal opponents.

[Leoff]

I’d figure pvpers would enjoy 30% more honor than exp from warmode. Bg’s don’t happen that often so ranking is a bit of a chore, imo more honor could be a nice offset. At least from the pvp disc I never heard players asking to level faster.

[Valadorn]

You dont need honor untill level 60 guys :( , they already added Exp from battlegrounds, which Warmode gives an addition 30% of. Which is pretty nice, but ppl still dont join :(