Let's talk about PvP system!

[Yurei]

Turtle should jsut remain PvE/RP focused. PvP would ruin that.

[Leozan]

for me it is the same like it is in the FGC, you get bodied until you learn from what you have done wrong and try to find a solution to fix it. how often have i looked at footage of me taking an L in wow pvp and then saw the problem later on footage and got ideas of what i could have done better for my next encounter.

---

on an end note:
gear is a reward and in a RPG absolutely crucial. you NEED to feel more powerful, than someone with less gear. if that wasn't the case, there would be little incentive to play in pve or pvp. if you gear upgrades don't make a good difference, you might as well wear no gear at all.

// Tenjin

Id say its hard to use the FGC as a comparison on gear scaling since most fighting games don't have adjustable stat values as rewards. The difference between two ryu players is literally the skill one has over the other, not one having 2x attack dmg/hp. Even in poor matchups like grapplers vs zoners, a decent game should have some mechanical options for the grappler to bypass projectiles and close distance. I'd chalk that up to skill and understanding your class/fighter which you do mention.

I do agree that feeling powerful is a great incentive to competitive play, but I'd argue outwitting your human opponent with your experience and skill feels better than just steamrolling poorly geared grunts. I feel incentive for pvp should be that endless variance of competition against opponents first. It also helps grow the pvp scene as losing players will have an easier time catching up to vets (at least in stats, skill wise its up labwork as you mention).

Gear progression is another incentive both visually and mechanically (stat boosts), but if the divide between gear is too great it becomes an annoying hurdle new players have to struggle through (and not in the good way). Technically at the end of the day eventually everyone should get high rank gear, but I doubt your incentive to play will end then. For me it would increase.

[Snowwolf]

I skimmed the thread, so pardon me if I am repeating anyone else's thoughts.

1) pvp should be consenting only. My good pvp experiences have been in battlegrounds. My bad ones involve some asshole murdering me or my quest giver for laughs. (great way to start a new expansion, this guy camping the quest giver for a few hours.)

2) I like the idea of FINDING pvp. Like the world objectives. I like making the CHOICE to flag and claim a tower or whatever.

3) I really like that warfront thing I saw someone mention. I found those really fun on retail, even if they're not actually pvp.

4) small scale pvp sounds pretty neat. 5v5 or something small scale might help with queues?

I don't think separating the pvpers from the pve is a good idea--but I do think that it should be made very clear that any kind of dickish behavior is not okay. Like, people say "oh, the community will solve those problems on their own by not grouping with them" but that's really short sighted. The community isn't a singleminded omnipotent hivemind. There are new players every day. There are people who don't always remember names. There are people who will go "eh whatever"....

"Let the community deal with them" basically rewards shitty behavior because it doesn't' actually work. Not enough people will put their foot down and refuse to put up with it to actually discourage it, and shitty people are, at best, mildly inconvenienced, but who cares because there are always people who don't know any better, or don't care.

But the point of these thread isn't what we like about pvp, it's about fun ideas for pvp. I don't have much for that, but I'll think about it some more. <3

[Albel]

Make dishonorable kill matter. Spent your afternoon killing flight masters? Maybe the SW guards kill you on sight now, criminal scum.

[Limitru]

Soo, i had some ideas for an open pvp area.

Pirates Island:

- FFA flagged at all times
- Lot's of chests, herbs, mining nodes all over the island
- Captains chest that spawn every couple of hours with lots of unique items inside
~~~ Example: Pirate Related Gear (Admirals Hat, Shirts, Rapier, maybe associated craft recipes, maybe even some gadgets like the Gun that drops in Strat Live or some other flavourful stuff)
And a quest item, that lets you turn it in for : Bag of Herbs, Bag of Leather, Bag of Ore, Bag of Marks of Honor or even Bag of Gold. Repeatable!

I'd even go as far and leave the idea of a Captains chest by side and just pack the island with chests and npcs. Every chest contains that said quest item, so people will naturally interact with those, since they contain loot and potentially even more on a relativle short respawn. (30 minutes for chests, 15 minutes for nodes)

So the idea is, that you have a port guy to the Pirates Inn on the Island.
The Inn basically acts like the neutral hubs and lets neutral guards attack you if you pvp within, so you always got a safe place to retreat, but also check in with yer mates and talk about the adventures on the Island. Put some battleground and arena masters right there as well, so people can relax and que from the hub.

Then you just go out and around the area and explore what is has to offer and trying to collect treasures, while Pirates, Crabs and potentially other high level NPCs roam the area, as well as players. So you gotta always be on your toes or got to form a small crew to be safer within the said area. Since pirates aren't faction specific, it allows for xfaction grouping (like in gurubashi as well).

The most important thing is however to chose rewards that specifically makes you WANT to come back. I think getting an item that will let you chose the reward (whatever your focus is, pvers might take the herbs/ore, pvpers the marks of honor or gold) will greatly improve interaction and make people want to come back. On the other Hand you get cool little pirate cosmetics and stuff like that.


______________________________________________________

@Leozan:

Yeah the comparission was more based on the skill level improvements, that you have in FGs.
Obviously you got gear as a factor, but if you are smart about it, you can outplay geared characters, which happens all the time, at least on all the pvp servers i've been on.
Why i drew the comparission is to make clear, that skill begins with the smallest things in WoW. Starting at stuff like comfy, but also quick to press keybinds. Its kind of essential to first of all have all spells in your toolkit binded (at least all skills you are going to use in pvp), which a lot of people don't, or have like absurd bindings like F1-F8 for main spells. While this might be comfy for pve, it's something really counterproductive in pvp, since you gotta reach far away from your movement keys. Then you gotta learn matchups and what is effective against which class and how to solve unfortunate matchups. Ofc a geared rogue has a much easier time to shine and one shot someone in a stunlock, than a not so geared rogue. However if Rogue A has lots of gear, but lacks the basic fundamentals of pvp gameplay, Rogue B with less gear, but a higher skill and/or understanding can outplay you.

I can literally talk from experience on this server as well, where i came fresh out of HC with green shit gear and still made 90k honor in my first week. While getting stomped on and beaten for weeks, we still won matches because little things like a Clutch Heal or Silence, maybe even a lucky fish on Blackout turned the tides around, giving the team an oppertunity to make plays of their own.

And especially with bad gear, consumes and pvp gadgets will make you overcome the fear of getting one shotted right away. Lot's of those are easy to get and very inexpensive. (Free action potions, swiftness pots, teas, combat pots, swiftwatch, skull of impending doom, medicine pouch, engineering items, etc).

Besides that, getting to r8 while leveling takes just 1 HK per week, which allows you super easy and early access to powerful gear. So the cap to get to decently good gear is so low on turtle, that this actually should not be a problem.

@Snowwolf:

Idk, Turtle WoW has been the only server, where we could almost freely roam around the major cities doing our thing, while having almost no people to fight against us. On every other servers i have been, the enemy faction has been eliminated on the spot as soon as people caught them in their city. Heck, even out in the wild i come across people forming groups to counter ganks. Situations like that encourage teaming up and bonding with your faction members imo.

[Leozan]

I can literally talk from experience on this server as well, where i came fresh out of HC with green shit gear and still made 90k honor in my first week. While getting stomped on and beaten for weeks, we still won matches because little things like a Clutch Heal or Silence, maybe even a lucky fish on Blackout turned the tides around, giving the team an oppertunity to make plays of their own.

Love the pirate island idea and can certainly imagine well geared players getting outplayed by less geared players (warmane is an great example imo). Just had a proposal on what I quoted above.

Would you be against the idea of a lv60 quest where players had to turn in crafting mats for low grade pvp gear (exclude jewelry and trinkets) that’s 30% worse than the rank 6+ rare quality gear?
-Each slot would have a separate quest
- It would simply be a way for new players to get sub standard pvp so there’s less of a burden on the teams.
- aesthetically the armor/weapons would look very basic and either be red/ blue colored respectively (copy a respective low lv green quality armor set)

[Limitru]

Honestly i like the idea a lot. It also incentivizes people to gather in the open world, which i like a lot. It can also be a good counterpart to the Rep Gear we got, which is mostly good for pve. (lack of stam/armor especially, which is pretty important)

On the other hand, you can specifically target slots, that are pretty much bad or nonexistent and combine that with useful effects.

Example:
Theres a Belt from Tailoring, that removes movement impairing effects on a relatively large CD.
Take that effect and put it on those items.

Little things like that on offpieces make them extremely useful and enhances your toolkit, while being a good choice for fresh 60s, its a nice niche one for well geared players as well.

[Leozan]

Alright that’s a fair middle ground I can get behind.

Damn that tailoring example is excellent. Ya I forget how many odd items have unique abilities attached to them. That’s something to consider as well.

[Paw]

When I think of pvp on this server I am thinking the way of the panda. Why do we fight? To protect home and family. Maybe here the tenuous pact between the horde and alliance might not evaporate like in other places and we build rp and pvp around this theme. Does that sound reasonable?

[Xantros]

After reading most of the thread, I have some things to say and some ideas.
I am not an avid PvP-er but I did my humble share of it back in the day. In general, the most fun I had was in BGs or big open-world arranged battles, where teamwork was essential. The least fun I had was in world PvP. To get jumped by a lvl 60, when I'm only like 25 is really not fun, especially zone like STV aka Vietnam.

This is how I see it: PvP IS part of the game as much as PVE but some things need to be addressed.

The Good:
- Leveraging Teamwork to Success I believe holds greater value than individual gains.
- The Double Edged Sword: The Excitement Factor: "I am not in a safe zone, I have to be vigilant, ready for anything".
- The Sense of Accomplishment that you have reached a high Rank through diligence, skill or effort.
- PvP servers = high population, always.

The Bad:
- Class and Faction (Population) Imbalance often makes the server PvP one-sided. People will not switch to losing side...
- The Double Edged Sword: The Fear Factor "Oh no, I want to lvl but I can get killed at any time... *shivers* ".
- High Toxicity: Let's face it. Most toxic players are attracted by PvP because they can live out the power fantasy of crushing noobs and taking names. Has always been like that, in any game. Now it is one thing to beat someone in a BG who has less skill or less gear. But to take your lvl 60 to a lvl 25+ zone and kill everyone on sight, repeatedly, corpse-camping or going into the city, killing the flight master/banker/quest givers etc. that is just doing evil.
- The Slow Grind: Grinding is not fun unless it is for a cause like AQ event.
- Level based "Matchmaking" does not account for skill or gear. Newer players will suffer.
- Losing in a BG makes feels like a waste of time.

What we know:
- Cross-faction BG could solve the low-pop/ faction imbalance issue BUT the Turtle Devs don't know how to do it and I think the factions are hard-coded so it probably can't be done.
- Honor Decay is an uphill battle.
- Community cannot deal with toxicity very well.
- Classes could be tweaked for better balance but that would be what Blizzard has not managed in 15 years...

Now for some ideas:

Already mentioned:
- I agree that there should be some Honor Gain/Decay stopping Glyph if it is possible, which would take the stress off.
- Pirate Island with choosable treasure loot, tough mobs and exploration rewards is a neat idea. There could be more areas like that.
- Open World battle events are always welcome. Gives the game more life.

My ideas:
- Skill Based BGs: Once I played Neverwinter Online and there they had a BG system where everyone in the BG had increased HP and lowered damage % based on your lvl. So me as a lvl 12 could fight 4x higher lvl players for an extended time. This works great with a capture the flag/occupy zone game.

So, I propose to have a tabard, with stats according to your class + damage, high stamina/hp and mitigation. If possible, this tabard should nullify other gear stats and only be usable in BGs. For classes who use weapons, either give an alternative weapon with tweaked damage or reduce that to a small amount where the stats and skill bonuses would matter.

IMO this would make some of the Good Aspects shine: Teamwork, Sense of Accomplishment and elevate the class uniqueness. no more gear stomps!

Keep in Mind: Need to balance melee to casters with the weapon damage and spell damage.

That is my 2 cents, I hope I helped Now I sleep... zzZZ

[Djijin]

The Tabard idea Xantros mentioned could be used to choose your faction in BG's. Perhaps an RP solution. Some reputation factions would defer to a side that is aligned to either alliance or horde.

It would be handy to know who is short in the queue, so you can choose which side you fight for, but you pick a tabard (that only is visible in BG and overrides your current or no tabard) so an alliance could play horde or vice versa, but in an aligned faction with horde/alliance. That way they aren't technically horde, but show up as that faction assisting horde just that once.

The key would be it being visibly easy to tell which side is needed more (or simply be told one side is currently lacking), and the tabard letting others know how and why they are on the other faction. At least this is by choice and not randomly, forcing those not willing to participate in faction swapping for BGs.

[Valadorn]

Just a tought, are the people saying to remove PvP gear so they can also play, the same that said that if they remove the +3 from AV more people will join ? Cuz that solution didnt increase the number of horde, all it did was halve the number of alliance. Taking away pvp progression will do the same, it will Just kill the pvp community, why are u guys so determined to keep the people that enjoy pvp content more out of pve content ?

[Paw]

I'm just gonna put this in here because I would like to remember you that what's important.

Now that it's all said and done. Let's continue!

[Jimmicz]

I’d favor a more horizontal progression where the main divide against old and new players is mostly skill based than gear based.

As for a system implementation, I’d guess expand or retune gear stat/requirments. There could also be lv 60 custom crafting quests given by battlemasters that simply have players turn crafting mats to get low grade starter pvp gear for new players (even have it look low grade, basic red vs blue cloth/leather/mail/plate armor). *I’ll have a better example of this end of the week.*

There's no such thing as PVP gear in Vanilla as none of the stats are purely PVP related, like T2 set is useful in PVP and rank 14 gear is very,very good prior AQ40 gear for raiding when it comes to certain classes. so what you need is an easy way to get geared up - which should be available via the dailies with custom factions if I'm not wrong, PVP gear became a thing in TBC with the introduction of resilience.

[Jimmicz]

Your entire post can be summarized as "I don't like PvP and I don't want it where I play."

I like to PvP, and I wouldn't want to be "on a different server".

If you like PVP you should be on PVP server though...

[Valadorn]

Battlegrounds are part of PvE servers too, I dont see why you guys are so against it ?

[Jimmicz]

Blood Ring is going to be cross-faction and have reputation rewards at some point. But turning other battlegrounds cross-faction won't happen. 1. I do not know how to do it. 2. It goes against everything WoW is about.

Ranking on Turtle is much easier comparing to the original Vanilla, removing decay would make it even more easy in my point of view.

Do you know how much you have to play to get to R14 even on Turtle?

/ Sorry, I shouldn't ask a rhetoric question like this: You might have guessed it - it's a lot. I'd say it's playing every night, for about 3 months (give or take a bit). A two week vacation will throw you back a month.

What would you think about just reducing honor decay (e.g. from 20% to 15%) to reduce the pressure?

it is 3 months exactly if you hit standing 1 every single week. I mean I do get that you might not have the time to do it, but then that's for you to decide if the grind is worth it or not and not for the devs to make it easier for you so you can have the reward you want. It's like asking for Raids to be easier just because you don't have the time to progress them....

[Limitru]

So, I propose to have a tabard, with stats according to your class + damage, high stamina/hp and mitigation. If possible, this tabard should nullify other gear stats and only be usable in BGs. For classes who use weapons, either give an alternative weapon with tweaked damage or reduce that to a small amount where the stats and skill bonuses would matter.

IMO this would make some of the Good Aspects shine: Teamwork, Sense of Accomplishment and elevate the class uniqueness. no more gear stomps!

Keep in Mind: Need to balance melee to casters with the weapon damage and spell damage.

I think the core idea is good, just not viable.

This would be a horrible thing to balance out, especially with classes that outshine any other class that are a lot more gear depended. Some classes would gain an insane amount of hp and mitigation that way. Give this to a shadow priest or bear druid and you have just that. (Keep in mind, you can still pop consumes as well, expanding that even more.)

I don't know why people are so obsessed with making vanilla balanced.
It's just simply insane to me, that people want to deny others accomplishments in regard of gear to make it easier for them, instead making them learn and invest time to get to the same point. At this point might as well take out all stats on all items and make them all cosmetic only.

Until you realize, that that wouldnt solve any problem as well, because some classes depend on the gear a lot more, than others.
That naked rogue? yep, he is still going to kill you in one CC chain.
That warrior not having a good weapon anymore, making them effectively useless against everyone.
Some speccs even live completely of good gear and trinkets, like POM Pyro to oneshot people.
And they should get one shotted. People worked for that and should be rewarded with such.

If you want balanced pvp, you gotta look anywhere but Vanilla PVP. (unless you completely change everything about the classes, game mechanics)
I'm all down for mages and rogues having reduced CC durations on Sheep and Sap in pvp. But simply reducing the duration on players would nerf their abilities. Instead the solution is a 2min CD trinket, that just removes ALL CC's, wearable by any classes.

[Jimmicz]

Whilst admittedly not exactly tied to the PvP system itself, I'd love to see more importance on faction leaders, and city raids.

City raids have been a huge source of enjoyment for me in the past, both offensively and defensively. It would be cool to see that be a more frequent thing with some custom quest incentivizing people to for example kill a certain amount of guards along with the faction leaders, or to defend a faction leader. You get the idea.

That said, I can only imagine the horror upon any hardcore player's face seeing a raid of lvl 60 PvP tagged players cruise through their beloved main city. And of course there's always arguments against a primarily PvE oriented event (depending on defensive ferocity) providing any PvP related rewards.

If you are ranking raiding a city to get 500 honor bonus for killing the Faction leader is the most silly thing you can do because you will get more penalty with Dishonorable Kills than you gain by killing the Leader.

[Jimmicz]

Well anyway as somebody who ranked on the classic I think most of the stuff you guys mentioning comes from a lack of people taking part in PVP. There's not much the devs can do about the pop.

What you can do though, is to introduce a TBC-like system with toke exchange npcs. That way people can farm honor at their own pace and won't be losing out by taking a break.

Removing Rank Decay would make Rank14 completely ridiculous and you would end up with everybody in BG having rank 14 gear.

+ adjusting the BGs to the small pop - meaning scale AV down to like 10vs10 or something, so the games can pop more often.

Making it more balanced? In a team-based environment, not sure how doable that is... From what I can remember BGs here were imbalanced because it was 3vs3 instead of 10vs10.

[Limitru]

If you are ranking raiding a city to get 500 honor bonus for killing the Faction leader is the most silly thing you can do because you will get more penalty with Dishonorable Kills than you gain by killing the Leader.

False, we invaded SW a couple of times, killed a lot of stuff including faction leaders and we never got a single DK.
It's also not silly, if it's the only honor you gain that day, because no games did pop.
So it's actually more efficient to do city raids and grief until the other faction flags themselves to get HKs, than it is to wait 10+ hours for a single warsong game.

The core problem still is, that if one faction decides to not que a specific BG, little to no games will open up.
A lot of people just wanna hop online and play some games and they can't do that.
So they idle in que all day, to might just be AFK the second one pops open, miss that eventually and then is screwed, because it's the only game they couldve gotten in. And thats the reason why people wanted X-Faction to begin with. Being unable to play an aspect of the game is what creates frustration, which results in stuff like tension between factions that are able to freely communicate (endless worldchat discussions, where people essentially talk against walls, lets be real) or people will flat out leave.

I can quote Count on that as well: I wanna play on this server AND i want to be able to do pvp, whenever i log in.

[Leozan]

… so what you need is an easy way to get geared up - which should be available via the dailies with custom factions if I'm not wrong, PVP gear became a thing in TBC with the introduction of resilience.

I guess when I say “pvp gear” I look at how the effects and set bonuses play to the class/spells. But your right that certain pve gear does overlap those effects (though I can’t say much about resistances)

I like the idea to involve custom factions for more low tier gear variety. Certainly it be easier for new players to gear up than getting stomped for days in bg’s at the beginning. Might also be an easier change the devs can make without messing with the whole system.

[Limitru]

Also another thing to keep in mind is, that BGs weren't designed for the low amount of players.
2v2 warsongs are only that unbalanced because they are 2v2 in the first place. I stated this before, if more people would man up and actually make 6v6 + games happen there, the chances increase per player on your side, regardless of gear.

[Mantigora]

I think most PVE-players would be fine with anything PVP if the PVP-ers would keep it to themselves.
Stop trying to force PVP upon those who not want it. Be it being ganked or be it prolonged drama and hate in the world channel.

Also the idea to set aside an island for PVP and put things there that people would want to get, like mining nodes or whatever, is unfair to those who want to play the game.
Remember, in WOW it is called NORMAL or PVP.

PVP is an extra thing that has been added and it is the leading cause for many of the changes that WOW went through, to address the problems that arose from it. (QQ-class-nerfing to the point that all classes are virtually the same now.)
I came to Turtle-WOW because it was NOT a PVP-server. If you can keep your PVP-fun out of my face, then by all means, have your fun. But your fun should not diminish the fun of others.

[Limitru]

Nobody is forcing PVP interaction on you. If you don't wanna go to a FFA PvP area, you don't. You can get chests, herbs, mining nodes anywhere else in the world.
You don't want be attacked in the open world or major city? You don't flag yourself, you can't get attacked.

Fair is not to exclude PVP interactivity. What you are basically stating is, that you don't care about it, if it doesnt affect YOU, but at the same time want to affect OTHERS, which results in being unfair to those.

PvP is not an "extra" thing that has been added. It was part of the core principle. It's what the faction system is there for. It's also not called "normal". It is called PvE.

You know whats also part of the enviroment?
Any NPC in the world, which includes guards, civilians, etc.
Killing them literally only gives downsides and yet people still do it. It's part of the game, whether you want it, or not.

[Mantigora]

You know what is fair? That people that DO NOT want PVP can have a server where they do not have to deal with it.
Question: How many PVP-private servers are there?
Answer: NEARLY ALL of them.

Fair would be to have SOME servers that ARE for PVE.

[Mantigora]

And don't come up with 'I don't HAVE to interact with PVP.'
Tell that to the L1 Warrior who wants to kill some wolves in Northshire, only to see them one-shotted by a Horde Mage, FOR HOURS.
Everyone knows that there are MANY ways that PVP can be forced upon you, even though you want it not.

Edit:
To be more constructive:
I do not mind any changes in the things for PVP as long as it does not disrupt the normal game and not give unfair advantages in the world that are only obtainable through PVP.

[Jimmicz]

If you are ranking raiding a city to get 500 honor bonus for killing the Faction leader is the most silly thing you can do because you will get more penalty with Dishonorable Kills than you gain by killing the Leader.

False, we invaded SW a couple of times, killed a lot of stuff including faction leaders and we never got a single DK.
It's also not silly, if it's the only honor you gain that day, because no games did pop.
So it's actually more efficient to do city raids and grief until the other faction flags themselves to get HKs, than it is to wait 10+ hours for a single warsong game.

The core problem still is, that if one faction decides to not que a specific BG, little to no games will open up.
A lot of people just wanna hop online and play some games and they can't do that.
So they idle in que all day, to might just be AFK the second one pops open, miss that eventually and then is screwed, because it's the only game they couldve gotten in. And thats the reason why people wanted X-Faction to begin with. Being unable to play an aspect of the game is what creates frustration, which results in stuff like tension between factions that are able to freely communicate (endless worldchat discussions, where people essentially talk against walls, lets be real) or people will flat out leave.

I can quote Count on that as well: I wanna play on this server AND i want to be able to do pvp, whenever i log in.

I do not believe that you invaded SW in 40 man raid and you haven't pulled a single vendor DPS to get DHK.

You do realize that even on Classic with full server pop and x-server BGs the AV had 1h 45m queue right? Here you are asking for games to be available all the time but that again comes down to server pop and players doing pvp, that have nothing to do with the PVP system at all, that's pop issue.

[Limitru]

You know what is fair? That people that DO NOT want PVP can have a server where they do not have to deal with it.
Question: How many PVP-private servers are there?
Answer: NEARLY ALL of them.

Fair would be to have SOME servers that ARE for PVE.

And that is exactly not fair. You want to exclude people from a game, because you don't like one aspect of said game.

Second, if that LVL 1 Character in Elwynn gets his his little wolves griefed, he should not be qq'ing there, but instead ask their faction for help, because there is a griefer in their zone. It's natural behaviour in this game, that people get rid of those people by themselves. Every server, pve or pvp, i have been on for the past 10 years done it that way and it's working perfectly fine. And you can go to any other starting zone as well. Also people here got banned for intentionally tricking HC's into attacking them. So that part of griefing is taking very seriously

You don't want a solution for the problem you describe. You want a safe space. If you wanted a solution, you would not argue in a way, that changes core aspects of the game.

[Limitru]

If you are ranking raiding a city to get 500 honor bonus for killing the Faction leader is the most silly thing you can do because you will get more penalty with Dishonorable Kills than you gain by killing the Leader.

False, we invaded SW a couple of times, killed a lot of stuff including faction leaders and we never got a single DK.
It's also not silly, if it's the only honor you gain that day, because no games did pop.
So it's actually more efficient to do city raids and grief until the other faction flags themselves to get HKs, than it is to wait 10+ hours for a single warsong game.

The core problem still is, that if one faction decides to not que a specific BG, little to no games will open up.
A lot of people just wanna hop online and play some games and they can't do that.
So they idle in que all day, to might just be AFK the second one pops open, miss that eventually and then is screwed, because it's the only game they couldve gotten in. And thats the reason why people wanted X-Faction to begin with. Being unable to play an aspect of the game is what creates frustration, which results in stuff like tension between factions that are able to freely communicate (endless worldchat discussions, where people essentially talk against walls, lets be real) or people will flat out leave.

I can quote Count on that as well: I wanna play on this server AND i want to be able to do pvp, whenever i log in.

I do not believe that you invaded SW in 40 man raid and you haven't pulled a single vendor DPS to get DHK.

You do realize that even on Classic with full server pop and x-server BGs the AV had 1h 45m queue right? Here you are asking for games to be available all the time but that again comes down to server pop and players doing pvp, that have nothing to do with the PVP system at all, that's pop issue.

Nope, but with around 15. If people know what to do, it's literally np. We also held Bank and AH hostage with like 4-5 players for hours, while the opposite faction stood there most of the time, crying about why we do that, instead of acting.

Reality is, that we COULD play games all day. How many times during my ranking was i sitting in Org with a bunch of other pvpers just WAITING, while we couldve had 20 matches in the meantime.
I can compare this very good, to an old german tbc server i played on for a very long time. They had xfaction grps and bgs from the very start and around a daily pop of like 500 players +-on week/weekends. I logged in at most times of the day and BGs were up and running most times. Yeah you get the occassional 1 hr que during raid times and stuff like that, but its nothing NEARLY close to twows 10+ hour ques on some days.

[Jimmicz]

Nope, but with around 15. If people know what to do, it's literally np. We also held Bank and AH hostage with like 4-5 players for hours, while the opposite faction stood there most of the time, crying about why we do that, instead of acting.

Reality is, that we COULD play games all day. How many times during my ranking was i sitting in Org with a bunch of other pvpers just WAITING, while we couldve had 20 matches in the meantime.
I can compare this very good, to an old german tbc server i played on for a very long time. They had xfaction grps and bgs from the very start and around a daily pop of like 500 players +-on week/weekends. I logged in at most times of the day and BGs were up and running most times. Yeah you get the occassional 1 hr que during raid times and stuff like that, but its nothing NEARLY close to twows 10+ hour ques on some days.

Again so you want to solve population issue with xfaction ....

[Limitru]

Nope, but with around 15. If people know what to do, it's literally np. We also held Bank and AH hostage with like 4-5 players for hours, while the opposite faction stood there most of the time, crying about why we do that, instead of acting.

Reality is, that we COULD play games all day. How many times during my ranking was i sitting in Org with a bunch of other pvpers just WAITING, while we couldve had 20 matches in the meantime.
I can compare this very good, to an old german tbc server i played on for a very long time. They had xfaction grps and bgs from the very start and around a daily pop of like 500 players +-on week/weekends. I logged in at most times of the day and BGs were up and running most times. Yeah you get the occassional 1 hr que during raid times and stuff like that, but its nothing NEARLY close to twows 10+ hour ques on some days.

Again so you want to solve population issue with xfaction ....

That was my first solution brought up months ago, it got denied multiple times, even in this Thread. It's not happening.
I'm just stating the obvious over and over again, while talking to a wall, because people don't understand the problematic.

Not enough players per faction to make BGs running consistently.

No xfaction for those as stated by the staff, so that can't be a solution.

So many others and myself started to find something, that encourages more PvP, bonds that together with the philosophy of PvE and RP, hence why i came up with the open world FFA area.

And those Areas are proven to WORK. Wintergrasp during non-battle times is what i think the perfect example for that. It greatly rewarded all sorts of player interaction with quests, farming and pvp, so essentially something for everyone. High Risk, with High Rewards (well not too high of a risk, since you only can get killed and not lose items, but you get the idea). And you can still put a group together in those areas, on this server even with the opposite faction, to make you travel there, if you're not a pvp'er yourself, safer. It's also not essential for pve'rs to do that content, since you could gather pretty much in other zones and have chests all over the world, which are super easy to farm on twow.

WIth that in mind, it expands on already established systems for high level content in a new light, without excluding anyone in the process. You just give the players an alternative to do content.

[Erok2]

Lots of interesting ideas in this post! I wish to share how PVP was introduced to me and how I was I was hooked ever since. I was lucky enough to involved in the vanilla stress test and got to enjoy it with a large group of friends. On one of the last few days of the stress test we found ourselves invited into a raid of level 15 to 20s traveling from Darkshire to Booty Bay with the intent of spilling Horde Blood somewhere in Kalimdor. I don't remember where we intended to go. When we make it to STV the raid spotted that wandering Female Tauren NPC on one of the bridges and panicked, the whole raid back peddled away in fear and broke. We rallied and banded back together and resumed our journey. Tigers took a few down, the Raptors feasted, the gorillas stomped out the slow. A good hour after our adventure started our much smaller group of the survivors finally makes it to Booty Bay. As our group is heading down the ramp we can see the boat off in the distance returning to Booty Bay. I remember the excitement building as we were so close to battle! Closer than we even knew.. because the boat was covered in more red names than you could possibly count and we were all dead seconds after it landed. We had hundreds of PVP adventures in Vanilla that we reminisced about for a decade after playing, truly an amazing experience.

I have done it all and really have no more goals or aspirations in this game. I joined this unique server because I still enjoy leveling, running dungeons, and I wanted to check out the custom content and items. I am hoping to see some more low level item changes! I was also hoping vanity and status wouldn't be a factor amongst the players. Either way I am enjoying this place with a buddy of mine.

Thoughts on what people are saying in this post:
It's a PVE server - Well if you want the turtle custom experience there is no PVP option to choose from. Maybe people wish to enjoy this server and also PVP?

Don't force me to PVP! - Make PVP the reward PVP items. Not sure one could force you to flag PVP if you didn't wish to do so.

Keep PVP separate - As people suggested, add a PVP stat to PVP items. Make it so PVP stat > any tier of PVE gear for PVP. There ya go, can't get any more separate than that.

'It can't be done' - I don't understand this at all. Present your idea and let Torta and the turtle team tell you what can and cannot be done.

Player Balance in PVP - Maybe unsolvable? On popular private servers in the past they would add a login queue to the larger faction to incentivize balance.

Class Balance - The game is REMARKABLY balanced for how unique each class is. When everyone is in PVP blue items, health is high and damage is moderate. Fine tune this. It doesn't need to be perfect to be fun.

Happy Friday.

[Jimmicz]

Blood Ring is going to be cross-faction and have reputation rewards at some point. But turning other battlegrounds cross-faction won't happen. 1. I do not know how to do it. 2. It goes against everything WoW is about.

Ranking on Turtle is much easier compared to the original Vanilla, removing decay would make it even easier in my point of view.

Re X factions.

https://www.getmangos.eu/forums/topic/7 ... rde-teams/

Not sure if that helps but seems like somebody from mangos already did the work for you.

2. I would say WoW is about "War" ? So the idea of a bunch of characters jumping into BGs so they can "train" before the big battle is not something I would say is against everything WoW is about.

But then WoW on RP server is probably about something else than WoW on PVP server.

[Gheor]

Re X factions.

https://www.getmangos.eu/forums/topic/7 ... rde-teams/

Not sure if that helps but seems like somebody from mangos already did the work for you.

2. I would say WoW is about "War" ? So the idea of a bunch of characters jumping into BGs so they can "train" before the big battle is not something I would say is against everything WoW is about.

But then WoW on RP server is probably about something else than WoW on PVP server.

Clearly Horde helping the Sentinels (Night Elves) defend their lands against THE HORDE makes total sense, right?

Not trying to act like an asshole here even if it sounds like that, the whole idea of making the current BGs crossfaction is ridiculous and goes against lore which is a main part of the server's gig.
BGs in the future that can be crossfaction? Sure, nobody is against that, but not the current BGs.