Let's talk about PvP system!

[Lahire]

All I know is, contrary to a lot of pvp players, I value the fact that vanilla pvp design is less skill-based than time and gear-based. If I want a skillful pvp game, I go play a RTS or a FPS. It is not the main point of a pvp in MMORPG, which is a very special genre.

From a player experience, what is the point of instanced pvp in a mmorpg and what makes different kinds of players want to play it ? Yeah there are people who want to "show their skill", but I think that is not the main reason people play pvp in a mmorpg. The reasons can be :
- seek specific rewards (the people who stop playing pvp after they got exalted AV for example)
- showing off their raid gear (social reward specific to mmorpg)
- the pleasure that comes from crushing unstuffed people (twinking comes from that really)

These three motivators are based on time and gear. If the mode is purely skill-base, the people who just want the rewards won't engage with it. And the people who want to /flex or /crush with their massive gear wont either as they would feel "robbed" by less stuffed players (we saw this player reaction in New World beta actually).

So I don't know what I want specifically, but I know the core design of vanilla pvp has a good reason for it. The reason is : time/gear base pvp is more coherent with other parts of mmo design (it links pvp to the raiding system and the social system for example ; it also contributes to the global journey of your character, as you play the same in all modes ; so it is a RPG mechanic too) and is motivating for more kinds of players than just those who want to skill up.

The other advantage of this design is that "skill based players" can still show off their moves, as they can leverage their skill during BG to win. So everybody gets something from this design, while the skill based version doesn't attract other kinds of players.

And let's be real here : there is a part of "you think you want it but you don't" about feedback asking for "skill pvp". A lot of people dream about being skilled in pvp but can't achieve it (because it requires a lot of time, investment, patience, etc to become skilled). They ask for it but will not engage with it consistently.
So is it a good idea to narrow a design to cater to 1 specific kind of players who are perhaps far fewer than the people asking for the change ?

[Gheor]

Coun, Qixel.

This was made for suggestions not disagreements, please take it to PMs.

[Rytz]

Disclaimer: my interest in PvP is very minimal. Just adding my two cents.

@Qixel: From my understanding, Turtle WoW is doing very well with regards to it's population numbers. Fragmenting the player base by forcing PvP onto a different server would be a detriment to the "mmo" aspect of the game. The more players on one server, the better. Also, I suspect that trying to implement a server backend system to allow for "on-the-fly" transfers for PvP would be a nightmare.

@Qixel: Regarding PvP (world) chat, I've always thought of world chat drama as part of the WoW charm. I'm not condoning personal attacks and such but there is a reason why people don't use "the basement" whenever they want to talk some *hit. We always have the option to add people to our ignore list.

I agree with the idea to reduce the decay rate. I don't understand why the WoW PvP system was designed to be so hardcore and time demanding. It's like they intentionally didn't want any kind of casual PvP outside of duels.

I've never been a fan of requiring PvE players to PvP in order to get better PvE gear. I remember doing AV for Don Julio's Band and hated every minute of it. Perhaps there is a middle ground to where equivalent PvE gear (select items like Don Julio's) can be added to a difficult quest line or as rare dungeon drops so that PvE players aren't forced into grinding PvP just for gear.

[Yurei]

Gear based PvP is dumb and I’d adore a chance to play WoW with skill placed at the forefront in BG. Stats on gear shouldn’t determine victory, the skill of the player should. If you want an unfair PvP game where you arrive with a 20% chance of outlasting me because you don’t have a life to juggle along with your high elf, then don’t expect me to bother… and you likely won’t see a lot of people like myself waste their time playing fodder to a broken power fantasy on a private realm.

Just offer a glyph for auto 60, a pocket dimension where these glyphs cannot leave to ruin the PvE. And include item vendors with max item level gear for every class so no one can reign supreme … because there’s no reason to challenge PvP gear gods if I’ve got to pursue a Rocky Balboa/South Park training montage to score a handful of K Os.

[Leozan]

If players in the community are taking things too far, it’s up to the community to call out those individuals to the devs and get them removed/banned. Screenshot the hate speech chatlog and report it in, that should be enough proof for action I hope.

You misunderstand me. I do not want people banned for getting mad over pvp. Getting mad over pvp is pvp. People should not be punished for engaging in an aspect of the game. Those people wishing death upon their families were perfectly reasonable and nice players two hours prior, and they were again the next week. PvP is the common issue, not the players.

I’d say there’s a clear difference between getting angry at a loss and threatening people. No one holds a gun to peoples head and says “be a toxic ass or I shoot”, people do that stuff freely on their own.

Also anyone who wishes death upon someone in one instance of play is not a reasonable and nice player. While a competitive spirit can effect people, anyone who goes to that extent needs to grow the f up and act accordingly.

I will go on record saying that I don’t mind removing people who freely choose to be an ass and create toxicity.

[Lichenwitch]

i agree that facilitating more RP-PVP events would be cool

[Serener]

What about an option to stop honor decay AND honor gain?

and if a person stops the decay then they can not enable honor gain the same week

[Torta]

Blood Ring is going to be cross-faction and have reputation rewards at some point. But turning other battlegrounds cross-faction won't happen. 1. I do not know how to do it. 2. It goes against everything WoW is about.

Ranking on Turtle is much easier comparing to the original Vanilla, removing decay would make it even more easy in my point of view.

[Leozan]

I’d favor a more horizontal progression where the main divide against old and new players is mostly skill based than gear based.

As for a system implementation, I’d guess expand or retune gear stat/requirments. There could also be lv 60 custom crafting quests given by battlemasters that simply have players turn crafting mats to get low grade starter pvp gear for new players (even have it look low grade, basic red vs blue cloth/leather/mail/plate armor). *I’ll have a better example of this end of the week.*

While I like your idea, the issue with "PvP gear for everyone" is that it would make a lot of late-game PvE redundant. Sure, PvP would be more "fair" if everyone had top gear. But if you give top gear to everyone who PvPs, people who raid would probably be pretty pissed about it.

What you could do is make PvP gear shitty or only usable in Battlegrounds or what not, but that again would harm PvP progression: As someone who does not raid, ranking is really my only way to get high-end gear. If I can't do that, what should I strive for? Trying to get better gear IS the main gameplay loop in WoW, be it PvP or PvE.

Battleground specific pvp gear is a nice idea. And your right as I don’t want to remove advancement for people that want or can only pvp. I figure at the end of it all the pvp matches are where the remaining fun lies, and I’d rather focus on that than grinding away for gear.

I guess in my scenario I’d have each higher rank give access to mostly cosmetic sensational looking gear to show off both skill and time investment. I don’t mind stat increases as long as it doesn’t completely screw over people coming in fresh.

I guess I want something akin to a good tutorial mode in a fighting game. Something to give new players a fair chance to familiarize themselves with mechanics before veteran player skills press down upon them. Since wow is so gear dependent my thoughts mostly go there.

I admit it’s a lot to move around on an old game like this. I’m down for whatever can get more people queuing up and enjoying themselves.

[Djijin]

I had to create a new account, as I'm at work. Crazy ideas? Sure why not. These address issues I see others having with pvp but take the solutions with a grain of salt. Just possibilities.

Pvp problems:
1. It's not integrated into the game world like a true RvR game. Wow pvp has become a system that interferes with pve, instead of being part of pve.
2. Gear inequality. Pvp in vanilla is far too gear dependent and is a barrier to entry. There is a reason why a pvp mitigation stat was introduced in TBC, however it was a poorly implemented mechanic which still bound pvp to a gear race and actually hurt participation as it allowed (as seen right now in Classic TBC) top end gatekeeping.
3. Degrading honor makes pvp a rat race and not friendly to casual participation.
4. High level players stomping lower level players.
5. BG's that just turn into premade, twink grind-fests.

Solutions:
1. Pve questing drives pvp interactions. More open world repeatable pvp quests. Pvp is a side affect that the quests warns you about and flagging is required to complete. They key mechanic being having a quest that defines pvp participation. Refer to point 4.

2. Pve gear should be for the pve progression race. It has no place in pvp and should never have been. Other than having a flat power curve when calculating pvp combat, an possible easy fix for this is to have a flat % mitigation applied to pvp damage. It's like resilience everyone already has. Regular mitigation is applied after. Superior damage is reduce more due to % reduction. This brings net damage output closer together, by maintains gear scaling overall so the chad twink still has numerical superiority. There is an issue with this when considering twink tanks with high HPs and mitigation already. There may need to be diminished returns on this past a certain hp level so Stam stacking doesn't exploit this.

3. Remove honor degrading up to epic ranks. Everyone should be able to rank up to blue rewards more easily. Leave the epics for the sweaty players into that race.

4. Open world pvp needs defined participation so a level 60 isn't camping level 20's, etc. This can be controlled by quest participation. If you take an open world pvp quest, you either can only attack others with that quest or con yellow to anyone flagged without serious dishonor is given to those why attack you without the quest. Use the default vanilla level ranges for quest taking however. Higher level players then cannot take the quest so either cannot attack you are will suffer serious dishonor penalties. This will need to be worked out and exploits mitigated. The point is to limit participation to appropriate level ranges. Incentives include access to rank rewards as per usual, quest providing faction rep rewards and fun quest rewards.

5. BGs have turned into a broken meta. Twinking cannot be avoided but mitigated by the % reduction of 'bonus', non-scaling resilience and putting level restrictions on enchants ... which should have been done day 1 and I cannot fathom how they missed this. You can't use level 60 pots in lower brackets so why F%#K should you be able to use level 60 enchants? It breaks common sense.
Likely cross faction is required at this point due to population limits and disparity. A cool feature could also be a bonus for running a daily BG such as double honor gain for 1st BG, increased honor gain for losing (participation is the drive, not rewards) and open world, lore defined benefits for BG wins so they don't seem so separate from the normal game and remind players that World of Warcraft comes from Warcraft. Lore should drive this and perhaps npcs promoters can be more verbose and make the world feel like events are happening.

Just some ideas.

[Qixel]

On a tangentially related note, I would suggest a Glyph of the Honorless, that removes your ability to gain honor. There's a few of us who have already hit r14 and wouldn't necessarily mind queueing up to continue playing but hate knowing that we're pushing new players down as they try to get gear. And I'm sure those new players would appreciate not having to compete with us for standing.

[Jombo]

I'd suggest a minimum of 3vs3 in WSG: 2vs2 or 2vs3 is completely ridiculous. Actually it would be even better if you made the minimum 4v4, as the true dynamics of WSG only reveal themselves with more players on each team, but I am not sure we are enough pvpers for that.

[Beutler]

Hi,

i thought it would be cool to have a longtime "capture the flag" like system but in the world and not in a separate battleground.
Like an item that is kept at the heart of ironforge or orgrimmar for example. the other faction has to steal it an bring it to their own capital. the item has to be carried by foot, so the way would be very long and people of the other fraction can plan multiple ambushes on the carrier, use the different terrains etc. player can get the item sneaky by night or at day with a big raid-group that supports the carrier.
if the carrier dies, the item remains on that spot and can be picked up by everyone.
fraction players will get a buff if the item is in their possession and placed in a defined spot in the city. the type of buff will depend on what capital city is chosen. maybe carriers can get a title if they make the whole way without dying.

Best
Gripto

/edit, the item could be a turtle

[Velite]

When you do anything that gives you honor, you instead gain honor points, which has a weekly hardcap, and you use these points to buy the gear.

[Dokkababecallme]

Daydreaming, I'd like PvP to be entirely seperate. Let the pvpers have their own server [...] Turtle was a really friendly place, even if it was small, and I'd like to keep it that way.

The most popular games in the world (League, CS:GO, Rainbow 6, etc.) are PvP. While some of those -- *cough* League -- are infamous for toxicity, people learn to not group with the toxic players. Turtle's a small server, so it shouldn't take long to figure out which people are toxic teammates.

No crossfaction lore bending BGs

Okay, then how do you form balanced teams? You can RP all you want on your own, but enforcing faction constraints on instanced PvP makes it much harder to create competitive games.

PvP games work best with PUGs. Some WoW players call it 'wargame', although PUG is the standard term across shooters. They're usually formed by team captains, but in small communities an officer can balance teams, as typically no one wants to be either a captain or last pick. WoW needs to balance classes as well as players, which is even harder when you add additional constraints like a same-faction requirement.

Faction-based PvP works for world PvP, but you still need faction balance, which Turtle doesn't have.

Blood Ring is going to be cross-faction and have reputation rewards at some point. But turning other battlegrounds cross-faction won't happen. 1. I do not know how to do it. 2. It goes against everything WoW is about.

Implementation details aside, allowing private matches with cross-faction groups doesn't violate "everything WoW is about". WoW has dwarves fighting other dwarf clans, trolls fighting other troll tribes, blood elves fighting high elves, and so on. Not that lore matters much in competitive PvP.

[Lahire]

"Balance" is a trap in this kind of discussions. MMORPG pvp is not made to be "balanced" like a counter strike or dota.
MMORPG pvp is just a branch on a big tree, not an independant system you can "balance" in a vacuum. It is not even the point to have balanced encounters in mmorpg, as it would remove the links of the pvp system to all the other progression systems.

I think pvpers must accept the fact that mmorpg pvp is just a part of a whole, and not a game outside of the game. RP/flavour is actually more important to the quality of a mmorpg than pvp balance, and shouldn't be sacrificed to seek it, as it innerves more systems than pvp balance does. You do not sacrifice a core element of RPG for 1 subsystem (and to cater to only 1 kind of players, because not all people engaged with pvp care about stuff like the racial imbalance).

[Erok2]

I would think of ways to incentivize PVP that are in-line with the server goals. Battlegrounds are toxic because you introduce winning and losing. No one wants to lose. Were you every angry dying in the Southshore vs Terran Mill fights? It was always fun going back and forth and if you died, you just ran back to the fray. Battlegrounds also become your most efficient path to the PVP gear so a loss is time wasted frustration. Also it takes players out of the world which is why I was against them when they were released. This system I was pondering is anti Battlegrounds, pro world pvp.

Want to incentivize world pvp? Make only world pvp give you the pvp reward.
Make honor the currency in which to buy the gear/items
Allow people to rank up to a certain rank without a standing and without decay
Allow the collection of honor to only take place in world pvp
introduce pvp 60 blue weapons with high stam/low damage stat
Create a system where you get honor by killing only those who yield experience
Create a system where you get half the honor when you are killed so it still can be enjoyed if its not always going in your favor
Create an incentive to flag for pvp? This one is tough because I am anti ganking or ruining another players experience
Add an opposing system where having overwhelming numbers actually ends up giving you less honor than those fewer players you are overrunning. Or some sort of way to incentivize balance in the amount of players. Something like 5 man groups giving bonus XP, but in this case honor. Larger than 5 man dilutes gains to promote small groups instead of raids.

Just some ideas I had for a system. Lets say we have a lvl 60 sword and it cost 1000 honor and rank 10. Rank 10 maybe just takes 3 or 4 weeks (which do not have to be done in row) of just showing up to achieve. Maybe you get 2 honor per kill and so you need 500 kills to get this item. If you pair this with other ideas that people have about making zones 'war zones' or just 'World PVP Friday' you could hopefully cultivate a great world pvp community for those who wish to partake that doesn't require anyone win or lose.

[Llimme]

Its Turtle, we slow , ¿why don't just remove the decay?, or, ¿is it necessary to be 1rst on ladder to earn points betw R13-R14?, some players have "pvp period/season", and coming back after a few months to do all the grind again, kinda bumps out.

[Nixors]

Whilst admittedly not exactly tied to the PvP system itself, I'd love to see more importance on faction leaders, and city raids.

City raids have been a huge source of enjoyment for me in the past, both offensively and defensively. It would be cool to see that be a more frequent thing with some custom quest incentivizing people to for example kill a certain amount of guards along with the faction leaders, or to defend a faction leader. You get the idea.

That said, I can only imagine the horror upon any hardcore player's face seeing a raid of lvl 60 PvP tagged players cruise through their beloved main city. And of course there's always arguments against a primarily PvE oriented event (depending on defensive ferocity) providing any PvP related rewards.

[Suwuxiv]

I think PVP in Vanilla is far too centric on gear and consumables, be it alchemy items, engineering or tea.

It would all be better if skill was more emphasized over gear and other things that you farmed. A big issue with this coming to be would be class balance. Some classes do have to crutch by with items more than others.

So removing the gear/consumable factor from PVP would not be a simple fix. Retuning classes and their abilities in PVP would be required, too. And I think that'd be more work than developers would be willing to put into it all.

[Nixors]

Whilst admittedly not exactly tied to the PvP system itself, I'd love to see more importance on faction leaders, and city raids.

City raids have been a huge source of enjoyment for me in the past, both offensively and defensively. It would be cool to see that be a more frequent thing with some custom quest incentivizing people to for example kill a certain amount of guards along with the faction leaders, or to defend a faction leader. You get the idea.

That said, I can only imagine the horror upon any hardcore player's face seeing a raid of lvl 60 PvP tagged players cruise through their beloved main city. And of course there's always arguments against a primarily PvE oriented event (depending on defensive ferocity) providing any PvP related rewards.

Those kind of capital raids are an issue lore-wise. Any kind of direct attack on a capital city could only ever be considered completely unrelated to lore, which I think is not what the staff is going for when making quests.
If e.g. the Alliance would order people to attack Orgrimmar, that would be an act of outright war, which would break a lot of the Vanilla lore.

I mean... It ain't World of Peacecraft is it ^^
Though I'm not really a lore guy so I can't actually seriously speak on the matter haha

[Lichenwitch]

"Balance" is a trap in this kind of discussions. MMORPG pvp is not made to be "balanced" like a counter strike or dota.
MMORPG pvp is just a branch on a big tree, not an independant system you can "balance" in a vacuum. It is not even the point to have balanced encounters in mmorpg, as it would remove the links of the pvp system to all the other progression systems.

I think pvpers must accept the fact that mmorpg pvp is just a part of a whole, and not a game outside of the game. RP/flavour is actually more important to the quality of a mmorpg than pvp balance, and shouldn't be sacrificed to seek it, as it innerves more systems than pvp balance does. You do not sacrifice a core element of RPG for 1 subsystem (and to cater to only 1 kind of players, because not all people engaged with pvp care about stuff like the racial imbalance).

+1 to this. we can't be too concerned with an idea of "balance" when PvP is just one part of a larger world. for instance there are many abilities and specs that are considered a waste in PvE but are incredibly good in PvP. so the whole game has to be considered, even if players conceptualize PvP and PvE as separate games, they aren't, as is the consequence of an MMORPG.

[Lichenwitch]

I think PVP in Vanilla is far too centric on gear and consumables, be it alchemy items, engineering or tea.

It would all be better if skill was more emphasized over gear and other things that you farmed. A big issue with this coming to be would be class balance. Some classes do have to crutch by with items more than others.

So removing the gear/consumable factor from PVP would not be a simple fix. Retuning classes and their abilities in PVP would be required, too. And I think that'd be more work than developers would be willing to put into it all.

i think this line of thinking is also a trap... we shouldn't be considering homogenizing classes. that is one of the many things that led to retail WoW's loss of class identity. there will also never, ever, be a purely "skill-based" system in an MMORPG, a genre where getting better gear that improves your performace is an integral part of the game. maybe, and i'm only half-joking here, we could have a special new battleground where everyone has to come in naked and with some stock wooden weapons to fight. this would allow people to only rely on their abilities. but we can't just erase/nerf/retune items, as long as any stat bonuses are still there at all, the argument that PvP doesn't rely on skill could still be there.

[Izax]

1. Vanilla PVP system is too grindy. Most ppl have a real life to live. So reduce honor decay or no honor decay to make PVP gear more obtainable for everyone. It helps close the PVP gear gap and makes PVP more skill-based.

2. Cross faction PVP probably helps even the teams of BG, and players from the same guild but different factions can have a chance to play on the same team.

3. Less than 5v5 BG is pretty boring imo. Personally I'm discouraged to join 2v2 Warsong or 3v3 AB. So lowering the bar of BG may actually cause less players to PVP.

4. AV unable to end on small pop server like this is torture. Add a timer and winning condition like AB to end AV if no side can take down the opposite side entirely.

[Lahire]

I think PVP in Vanilla is far too centric on gear and consumables, be it alchemy items, engineering or tea.

It would all be better if skill was more emphasized over gear and other things that you farmed. A big issue with this coming to be would be class balance. Some classes do have to crutch by with items more than others.

So removing the gear/consumable factor from PVP would not be a simple fix. Retuning classes and their abilities in PVP would be required, too. And I think that'd be more work than developers would be willing to put into it all.

i think this line of thinking is also a trap... we shouldn't be considering homogenizing classes. that is one of the many things that led to retail WoW's loss of class identity. there will also never, ever, be a purely "skill-based" system in an MMORPG, a genre where getting better gear that improves your performace is an integral part of the game. maybe, and i'm only half-joking here, we could have a special new battleground where everyone has to come in naked and with some stock wooden weapons to fight. this would allow people to only rely on their abilities. but we can't just erase/nerf/retune items, as long as any stat bonuses are still there at all, the argument that PvP doesn't rely on skill could still be there.

Yes, retail is what you obtain when you try to do a mmorpg with a "balanced" and "fair" pvp.
- pvp talents are here to "balance" the experience in a vacuum
- pvp scaling in BFA was here to give more chance to "skilled" players even if they had bad gear or less levels
- classes are homogenized to balance the game (zero flavour, everybody has the same toolkit)
- gear is easily obtainable in any activity so there is no gear difference

They chose to break their core rpg progression to produce a "balanced" (but flavorless) pvp experience. I do not think it is a good idea to do the same.

Cross-faction is another homogenization idea that breaks the RP/flavour of the game. Yeah ok if everybody is orc, the experience is "balanced" (but boring and flavorless). You lose the soul of the game in the process.

[Valadorn]

1.Consider adding Resources, or Timer to AV, that would help alot,
2. Consider a Flag Reset Timer ( say 5 mins ) for the Flags in WSG, if neither team caps, the flags will just reset, that will cancel the Stalling of WSGs

3.but lets talk actual world PvP
How about Things like the Harvesters in Silithus, Towers in the Plaguelands actually give honor when captured ? and the Quest becomes repeatable to actually encourage ppl to do it ? and How about we add Different PvP Objectives and Dailies in Higher lvl zones like Ungoro, Deadwind Pass, Winterspring, Burning Steppes, Felwood, Blasted Lands and Azsara, they shouldnt force /pvp on, but the respective quests can only be completed with /pvp, that would give a nice little optional posibility for World PvP.

[Yurei]

3.but lets talk actual world PvP
How about Things like the Harvesters in Silithus, Towers in the Plaguelands actually give honor when captured ? and the Quest becomes repeatable to actually encourage ppl to do it ? and How about we add Different PvP Objectives and Dailies in Higher lvl zones like Ungoro, Deadwind Pass, Winterspring, Burning Steppes, Felwood, Blasted Lands and Azsara, they shouldnt force /pvp on, but the respective quests can only be completed with /pvp, that would give a nice little optional posibility for World PvP.

this idea is cool, kind of what i expected when I first subbed in 2007. didn't see any of that. World PvP would be cool af with some social contracts. I'd hate to have the toxic spawn camping ruin it and impede the PvE that runs through those places of interest.

[Valadorn]

Yurei, there couldnt be any Toxic Spawn camping, since you can Turn Off PvP anytime, while gathering a bunch of people to beat the CAmper is another lvl of fun :P , also there is no Automatic PvP flag for accidental Death :D so it is a totally Opt in- Opt out thing, but it would add Depth to the world :)

[Ugoboom]

The less emphasis on instanced pvp, the better. I heard of one server with only ever 1 AV instance as if it was a world zone, that would be awesome, with the end boss killed that faction's defences could reset back to starting. Would let underdog faction get kills in as each AV wouldn't be a race.

Add more pvp objectives to the world, and reward offense and defense with personal rewards like honor or some tokens for consumes and stuff, instead of vague PVE-affecting buffs like Silithus and EPL has and TBC zones had.

[Limitru]

As for the topic:

I'd would love to see something like this for the start:

- add more open world pvp incentives, give decent rewards, so it encourages players to be flagged

- a pvp area like gurubashi, but on a larger scale. let it have chests, herbs, mining nodes, etc and give it something like the tower system, where people are encouraged to fight.

- add 2 minute allrounder pvp trinket, which removes every single CC effect (sap for example)

- add respec marks, stack in 2, you get one for winning a bg or turning in 3 other marks (wsg, arathi, av)

- custom pvp battle in the open world
just think of it like the raceway
ashenvale shredders from horde vs. treant from alliance
both have set skills and you can fight each other for small awards (pvp potions, rep reflecting the pvp factions, marks of honor, stuff like that)

in general more incentives to flag in the open world and give people rewards for that

- bring back benches, tables, etc. to gurubashi. place was a hub for pvpers before and is now mostly dead ever since the change of scenery
if not for that, bring in something like an outlaw pub. a meeting place to que up, dueling, crafting, pvp dailies and stuff alike. would obviously be very cool in an open pvp area and result in bar brawls and alike.
____________________________

as for everything else said in this topic:

toxicity is not a factor of pvp engagement. it is well known fact, that people shit themselves over loot, bad raid perfomance, bad leadership, etc. toxicity in wow is a player problem, especially on servers with people from all over the world. ignore is there for a reason. gms can be contacted in case of that. do those two things and don't let it affect you. (i mean like serious insults, threats, etc.) if the matter is serious, i'm pretty sure the staff will do the best thing and get rid of those players.

moving people to another realm would also devide 2 small communities into 3, which is absolutely the worst for small pop servers. right now the server is seperated by HC and normal, which already makes it a pain for normal players to find any dungeon while leveling or even grouping, while the world already feels empty enough. a lot of the pvpers also raid, so excluding those, who want to pvp, losing raiders/pver's in the process. (or even players completely)

pvp assaults on cities, ganking, and alike are a community problem, that needs to be solved by said bunch.
don't blame pvpers for interacting with the games intended mechanics. if people ride into your city and kill npcs, you form a zerg and teach them a lesson for as long as they continue to try it.

and last thing to be said, that a lot of people complain about overgeared players and the usage of items (alch, engi, etc.) and that it's not about skill, which is not the case. the skill sealing begins with your personal playstyle, the willing to analyze and then optimize it, as well as learning from each encounter.
when i look at how some people play in general (bad or non existent keybinds, clicking spells, not taking full advantage of your skills), i do not wonder, why they are bad at pvp for example.
for me it is the same like it is in the FGC, you get bodied until you learn from what you have done wrong and try to find a solution to fix it. how often have i looked at footage of me taking an L in wow pvp and then saw the problem later on footage and got ideas of what i could have done better for my next encounter.

and you know why? because i didnt interact with a boss that stands still till you beat it, but instead another person, who thinks on their own and tests your reaction, decision making and gives you the incentive to play outside of the box.

on an end note:
gear is a reward and in a RPG absolutely crucial. you NEED to feel more powerful, than someone with less gear. if that wasn't the case, there would be little incentive to play in pve or pvp. if you gear upgrades don't make a good difference, you might as well wear no gear at all.

// Tenjin

[Yurei]

Turtle should jsut remain PvE/RP focused. PvP would ruin that.

[Leozan]

for me it is the same like it is in the FGC, you get bodied until you learn from what you have done wrong and try to find a solution to fix it. how often have i looked at footage of me taking an L in wow pvp and then saw the problem later on footage and got ideas of what i could have done better for my next encounter.

---

on an end note:
gear is a reward and in a RPG absolutely crucial. you NEED to feel more powerful, than someone with less gear. if that wasn't the case, there would be little incentive to play in pve or pvp. if you gear upgrades don't make a good difference, you might as well wear no gear at all.

// Tenjin

Id say its hard to use the FGC as a comparison on gear scaling since most fighting games don't have adjustable stat values as rewards. The difference between two ryu players is literally the skill one has over the other, not one having 2x attack dmg/hp. Even in poor matchups like grapplers vs zoners, a decent game should have some mechanical options for the grappler to bypass projectiles and close distance. I'd chalk that up to skill and understanding your class/fighter which you do mention.

I do agree that feeling powerful is a great incentive to competitive play, but I'd argue outwitting your human opponent with your experience and skill feels better than just steamrolling poorly geared grunts. I feel incentive for pvp should be that endless variance of competition against opponents first. It also helps grow the pvp scene as losing players will have an easier time catching up to vets (at least in stats, skill wise its up labwork as you mention).

Gear progression is another incentive both visually and mechanically (stat boosts), but if the divide between gear is too great it becomes an annoying hurdle new players have to struggle through (and not in the good way). Technically at the end of the day eventually everyone should get high rank gear, but I doubt your incentive to play will end then. For me it would increase.

[Snowwolf]

I skimmed the thread, so pardon me if I am repeating anyone else's thoughts.

1) pvp should be consenting only. My good pvp experiences have been in battlegrounds. My bad ones involve some asshole murdering me or my quest giver for laughs. (great way to start a new expansion, this guy camping the quest giver for a few hours.)

2) I like the idea of FINDING pvp. Like the world objectives. I like making the CHOICE to flag and claim a tower or whatever.

3) I really like that warfront thing I saw someone mention. I found those really fun on retail, even if they're not actually pvp.

4) small scale pvp sounds pretty neat. 5v5 or something small scale might help with queues?

I don't think separating the pvpers from the pve is a good idea--but I do think that it should be made very clear that any kind of dickish behavior is not okay. Like, people say "oh, the community will solve those problems on their own by not grouping with them" but that's really short sighted. The community isn't a singleminded omnipotent hivemind. There are new players every day. There are people who don't always remember names. There are people who will go "eh whatever"....

"Let the community deal with them" basically rewards shitty behavior because it doesn't' actually work. Not enough people will put their foot down and refuse to put up with it to actually discourage it, and shitty people are, at best, mildly inconvenienced, but who cares because there are always people who don't know any better, or don't care.

But the point of these thread isn't what we like about pvp, it's about fun ideas for pvp. I don't have much for that, but I'll think about it some more. <3

[Albel]

Make dishonorable kill matter. Spent your afternoon killing flight masters? Maybe the SW guards kill you on sight now, criminal scum.

[Limitru]

Soo, i had some ideas for an open pvp area.

Pirates Island:

- FFA flagged at all times
- Lot's of chests, herbs, mining nodes all over the island
- Captains chest that spawn every couple of hours with lots of unique items inside
~~~ Example: Pirate Related Gear (Admirals Hat, Shirts, Rapier, maybe associated craft recipes, maybe even some gadgets like the Gun that drops in Strat Live or some other flavourful stuff)
And a quest item, that lets you turn it in for : Bag of Herbs, Bag of Leather, Bag of Ore, Bag of Marks of Honor or even Bag of Gold. Repeatable!

I'd even go as far and leave the idea of a Captains chest by side and just pack the island with chests and npcs. Every chest contains that said quest item, so people will naturally interact with those, since they contain loot and potentially even more on a relativle short respawn. (30 minutes for chests, 15 minutes for nodes)

So the idea is, that you have a port guy to the Pirates Inn on the Island.
The Inn basically acts like the neutral hubs and lets neutral guards attack you if you pvp within, so you always got a safe place to retreat, but also check in with yer mates and talk about the adventures on the Island. Put some battleground and arena masters right there as well, so people can relax and que from the hub.

Then you just go out and around the area and explore what is has to offer and trying to collect treasures, while Pirates, Crabs and potentially other high level NPCs roam the area, as well as players. So you gotta always be on your toes or got to form a small crew to be safer within the said area. Since pirates aren't faction specific, it allows for xfaction grouping (like in gurubashi as well).

The most important thing is however to chose rewards that specifically makes you WANT to come back. I think getting an item that will let you chose the reward (whatever your focus is, pvers might take the herbs/ore, pvpers the marks of honor or gold) will greatly improve interaction and make people want to come back. On the other Hand you get cool little pirate cosmetics and stuff like that.


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@Leozan:

Yeah the comparission was more based on the skill level improvements, that you have in FGs.
Obviously you got gear as a factor, but if you are smart about it, you can outplay geared characters, which happens all the time, at least on all the pvp servers i've been on.
Why i drew the comparission is to make clear, that skill begins with the smallest things in WoW. Starting at stuff like comfy, but also quick to press keybinds. Its kind of essential to first of all have all spells in your toolkit binded (at least all skills you are going to use in pvp), which a lot of people don't, or have like absurd bindings like F1-F8 for main spells. While this might be comfy for pve, it's something really counterproductive in pvp, since you gotta reach far away from your movement keys. Then you gotta learn matchups and what is effective against which class and how to solve unfortunate matchups. Ofc a geared rogue has a much easier time to shine and one shot someone in a stunlock, than a not so geared rogue. However if Rogue A has lots of gear, but lacks the basic fundamentals of pvp gameplay, Rogue B with less gear, but a higher skill and/or understanding can outplay you.

I can literally talk from experience on this server as well, where i came fresh out of HC with green shit gear and still made 90k honor in my first week. While getting stomped on and beaten for weeks, we still won matches because little things like a Clutch Heal or Silence, maybe even a lucky fish on Blackout turned the tides around, giving the team an oppertunity to make plays of their own.

And especially with bad gear, consumes and pvp gadgets will make you overcome the fear of getting one shotted right away. Lot's of those are easy to get and very inexpensive. (Free action potions, swiftness pots, teas, combat pots, swiftwatch, skull of impending doom, medicine pouch, engineering items, etc).

Besides that, getting to r8 while leveling takes just 1 HK per week, which allows you super easy and early access to powerful gear. So the cap to get to decently good gear is so low on turtle, that this actually should not be a problem.

@Snowwolf:

Idk, Turtle WoW has been the only server, where we could almost freely roam around the major cities doing our thing, while having almost no people to fight against us. On every other servers i have been, the enemy faction has been eliminated on the spot as soon as people caught them in their city. Heck, even out in the wild i come across people forming groups to counter ganks. Situations like that encourage teaming up and bonding with your faction members imo.